Re: Dehumidifier water to refill tank evaporation?

[BK]

I too asked this question shortly after buying a dehumudifier and it
was pointed out to me that not only is the water not clean from the
air, the dehumidifier and air conditioner have METAL heating coils
which could also add various things to the water. Best bet is NOT to
use this water.

Brian

Ward Christensen > wrote:

>I would think that water coming off a dehumidifier or portable air
>conditioner (they differ from a window unit in that they sit on the
>floor and dump the water into an internal container) is basically
>"distilled water" because it is condensed out of the air.
>
>My friends say it will have bacteria in them of course, since it is
>pulling out of the air - but nothing particularly harmful.
>
>I put a gallon of this water into my 55 gal, to help replace
>evaporation, and over the next 2-3 weeks had 2 of 9 misc livebearers
>(mollies, swords) die - don't know if this is a cause-effect or not.
>
>Today I'm going to do a full water chemistry checkup, just to check. I
>clean the tank about monthly by vacuuming up the litter from the gravel,
>then letting city water drip (literally - 1-3 drops/sec) in until it is
>filled. I add a bit of chlorine remover..
>
>BTW, anyone know a simple overflow mechanism I can get? I made my own
>once - small box glued to outside of tank with a plastic pipe up from
>the bottom hooked to the drain - the height of the pipe dictated the
>water level - and a siphon tube tied the little box into the main tank.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Ward Christensen
>Inventor of "Xmodem" & (W/Randy Suess) BBSs
>

[Iain Miller]

"Ward Christensen" > wrote in
message news:nYs4b.316066$o%2.143099@sccrnsc02...
> I would think that water coming off a dehumidifier or portable air
> conditioner (they differ from a window unit in that they sit on the
> floor and dump the water into an internal container) is basically
> "distilled water" because it is condensed out of the air.
>
> My friends say it will have bacteria in them of course, since it is
> pulling out of the air - but nothing particularly harmful.
>
> I put a gallon of this water into my 55 gal, to help replace
> evaporation, and over the next 2-3 weeks had 2 of 9 misc livebearers
> (mollies, swords) die - don't know if this is a cause-effect or not.
>
> Today I'm going to do a full water chemistry checkup, just to check. I
> clean the tank about monthly by vacuuming up the litter from the gravel,
> then letting city water drip (literally - 1-3 drops/sec) in until it is
> filled. I add a bit of chlorine remover..
>
> BTW, anyone know a simple overflow mechanism I can get? I made my own
> once - small box glued to outside of tank with a plastic pipe up from
> the bottom hooked to the drain - the height of the pipe dictated the
> water level - and a siphon tube tied the little box into the main tank.

Dehumidifier water is a bad idea. Firstly its condensed on what is more than
likely a copper core & so is likely to be high in copper (and maybe other
metals) and secondly its actually not very clean. A dehumidifier is blowing
air from the environment its in over the cooling coil to condense out the
moisture & in doing so its also likely that all the atmospheric pollutants
will go with it and so the resulting water is full of all sorts of nasties
(in a nicely concentrated soup) that you wouldn't want anywhere near your
fish tank

I.

[AQUATIC-STORE.COM]

Let us know how it goes with the analysis.
I would love to post it on our webboard!!

Marcus

http://www.aquatic-store.com/

Co2 tanks on sale
Eheim PRO II 2026 $143
Co2 regulator and bubble counter with needle valve $75

WEBBOARD

http://aquatic.yupapa.com/phpbb/index.php






On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:33:23 GMT, Ward Christensen
> wrote:

>I would think that water coming off a dehumidifier or portable air
>conditioner (they differ from a window unit in that they sit on the
>floor and dump the water into an internal container) is basically
>"distilled water" because it is condensed out of the air.
>
>My friends say it will have bacteria in them of course, since it is
>pulling out of the air - but nothing particularly harmful.
>
>I put a gallon of this water into my 55 gal, to help replace
>evaporation, and over the next 2-3 weeks had 2 of 9 misc livebearers
>(mollies, swords) die - don't know if this is a cause-effect or not.
>
>Today I'm going to do a full water chemistry checkup, just to check. I
>clean the tank about monthly by vacuuming up the litter from the gravel,
>then letting city water drip (literally - 1-3 drops/sec) in until it is
>filled. I add a bit of chlorine remover..
>
>BTW, anyone know a simple overflow mechanism I can get? I made my own
>once - small box glued to outside of tank with a plastic pipe up from
>the bottom hooked to the drain - the height of the pipe dictated the
>water level - and a siphon tube tied the little box into the main tank.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Ward Christensen
>Inventor of "Xmodem" & (W/Randy Suess) BBSs
>

[Bob K.]

>BTW, anyone know a simple overflow mechanism I can get? I made my own
>once - small box glued to outside of tank with a plastic pipe up from
>the bottom hooked to the drain - the height of the pipe dictated the
>water level - and a siphon tube tied the little box into the main tank.

I wrote an article for my club, it's on my website
http://members.aol.com/krampetz/water.htm

It shows a simple overflow with pvc pipes - no box, no glue.
Floor drain completes the overflow. Drip irregation feed
adds the water.

P.S. Dehumidifier water? *BAD* idea .. don't do it.

Bob

[Donald Kerns]

Bob K. wrote:

>>BTW, anyone know a simple overflow mechanism I can get? I made my own
>>once - small box glued to outside of tank with a plastic pipe up from
>>the bottom hooked to the drain - the height of the pipe dictated the
>>water level - and a siphon tube tied the little box into the main
>>tank.
>
> I wrote an article for my club, it's on my website
> http://members.aol.com/krampetz/water.htm
>
> It shows a simple overflow with pvc pipes - no box, no glue.
> Floor drain completes the overflow. Drip irregation feed
> adds the water.
>

Awsome hack! OK, Bob you've got my attention.

On the continuous water change thread you were advocating 50% changes
rather than 10% changes.

How do YOU deal with dechlor on your automated setup?

-Donald
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Bob K.]

thanks for the subject change! ;-)

>> I wrote an article for my club, it's on my website
>> http://members.aol.com/krampetz/water.htm
....
>Awsome hack! OK, Bob you've got my attention.

Thanks, but as I explained .. I shamelessly emulated
existing overflow systems by several others in my club.
Only thing I did was write about it.

>On the continuous water change thread you were advocating 50% changes
>rather than 10% changes.

Yup.. Still do. The 10 -15% changes are in the breeding tanks
were I have fewer fish per gallon. The 50% changes are in more
heavily loaded tanks, such as the 125g CA cichlids and an 85f with
breeding jaguars, neithert on the overflow system (not in the fish room)

It's like my father use to tell me, "Don't do as I do - do as I say!"


>How do YOU deal with dechlor on your automated setup?

Non-issue for small changes, so I don't worry about it..
Most tanks are done with the automatic water in. Others will
get a hose top off inbetween, or even 2-3 times a day (depends
on the tank load)

I dol add a half dose of amquel to those tanks where I exceed
a 33% change. (also starting to use a litle Sodium Thiosulfate)
Anything less and the biology of the tank breaks down the
chlorine/chloromines fast enough that I've never seen any
problem. Successfully spawing many species is proof enough,
the other proof is many many years of doing this and knowing
how far I can go.

Yes, once about 10 years ago, I did a 60-70% change and
noted immediate distress. My chlor-out was empty and it
took 20 minutes to race to the LFS & return to find several
already dead - so I know how the fish react and what can happen.

Rules are for beginners, experience is for oldtimers..

Bob

[Bob K.]

>> How do YOU deal with dechlor on your automated setup?
>
>I'm also curious about this. The latest information I have (to also
>remove chloramine) is to use Centaur carbon at about 2.5gpm or slower.
>The life expectancy of the carbon will depend on the concentration of
>chlorine or chloramine in the water, the presense of other contaminents,
>the amount of water being processed and if you have the ability to
>backwash the carbon bed. If you only have chlorine in your water supply
>(lucky you), then you could theoretically adjust your input flow to be
>below the acceptable threshold for fish as diluted in the volume of the
>tank, based on a 24 hour rate of evaporation, -or- feed your supply into
>a well aerated overhead holding tank with gravity-fed drip lines into the
>tanks.

Frankly, many of those information pieces are by or for the
companies selling those products. Carbon use to eliminate
chloramine is an overly expensive way to go.. You'd need a
lot of activated carbon, and backwash doesn't work for anything
other than debris (detritus).. Chemicals have to be 'cooked'
out to re-activate the charcoal.

As you note, chlorine will dissapate quickly - and even faster
if sprayed. But very few water companies use chlorine anymore,
its nearly all chloramine now. But even chloramine breaks down,
albeit much slower, but 10-15% is absolutely safe. Using holding
tanks is not as good as just putting it in your fish tank, chloramine
will last much longer without biological agents to help it break down.
(my tester doesn't distinquish chlorine vs chloramine - best you assume
it's chloramine unless you're sure)

Water companies don't like to waste money & will cut down chloramine
use in cooler/colder weather so even higher percentages water changes
are possible then. I've only had high chlorine/chloramine readings when
I lived in San Jose CA - and there, I never worried about 10-15%
(where I established my 'rule of thumb' for no amquel)

Here in Oregon, I often do 50% changes with no treatment..

As anyone will know (or soon learn) YMMV ..

Bob

[Donald Kerns]

Bob K. wrote:

> Rules are for beginners, experience is for oldtimers..

And experience is gained by not following the rules... ;-)

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Donald Kerns]

NetMax wrote:

> I used to have a link discussing chloramine thresholds for fish
> (Donald?). It was quite low, though I take most data with a grain of
> salt which is spread over experience & observation ;~)

I didn't find one for chloramine, but the link for chlorine should still
be available in the continuous change thread... (rummage, rummage)

Here it is...
http://aquariumfish.com/fish/library/articleview.asp?Section=&RecordNo=3088

One "passive" approach to chloramine might be to run it thru a UV unit.
The UV may/probably will break the Cl/NH bond. Leaving you with free Cl
and NH3/NH4+ for your biofilter...

Do we have any chemical engineers in the audience?

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Bob K.]

> Our municipality uses
>monochloramine (pH is between 7 & 8) and keeps the levels between 1.1 and
>2.5ppm, averaging 1.5ppm (I can't correlate to your measurement). What
>tester are you using? What is it's threshold?

Sigh, you had to ask!

I used those cheap little strips that turn various shades
of yellow..
And I haven't used one in a couple of years, tested all summer
long and was satisfied that they don't use much.

Though I've asked, particularly when I first moved here,
the Portland Water works can't even get their billing straight,
let alone tell me what numbers of what they add to my water..

Also, some fish are more sensitive to chlorine/chloromine,
(i.e. never had them, but I hear the black ghost are)

Bob
P.S.
Netmax, email me directly (remove the ".net.org" from my ISP)
So I know how to reach you.

[NetMax]

"Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
> > I used to have a link discussing chloramine thresholds for fish
> > (Donald?). It was quite low, though I take most data with a grain of
> > salt which is spread over experience & observation ;~)
>
> I didn't find one for chloramine, but the link for chlorine should
still
> be available in the continuous change thread... (rummage, rummage)
>
> Here it is...
>
http://aquariumfish.com/fish/library/articleview.asp?Section=&RecordNo=30
88

Thanks Donald! So with a .02 ppm max chlorine target, and source water
at 1.5 ppm average, what is the maximum water change possible within 24
hours, if spread over 24 hours in a continuous drip. I get a factor of
75 as the dilution factor. One gallon into a 75g tank per day, or
1.33%/day, or around 9% a week. That's respectable for a lightly loaded
tank, especially if naturally planted. How are my numbers?

> One "passive" approach to chloramine might be to run it thru a UV unit.
> The UV may/probably will break the Cl/NH bond. Leaving you with free Cl
> and NH3/NH4+ for your biofilter...
>
> Do we have any chemical engineers in the audience?

Now THAT would be the cat's meow if UV could break the bond. My
application is monochloramine, and I'll still need a threshold for that
(if such a thing exists). You have my attention now.

NetMax

> -D
> --
> "When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
> think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[NetMax]

"Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
...
> Bob K. wrote:
>
> > Rules are for beginners, experience is for oldtimers..
>
> And experience is gained by not following the rules... ;-)

While knowledge let's you stray from the rules to gain experience, it's
really wisdom that let's you know when & how to use it.. ;~)

Somehow I think we might have strayed from dehumidifier water and
overflows :o)
NetMax

> -D
> --
> "When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
> think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Donald Kerns]

NetMax wrote:

>> One "passive" approach to chloramine might be to run it thru a UV
>> unit. The UV may/probably will break the Cl/NH bond. Leaving you with
>> free Cl and NH3/NH4+ for your biofilter...
>>
>> Do we have any chemical engineers in the audience?
>
> Now THAT would be the cat's meow if UV could break the bond. My
> application is monochloramine, and I'll still need a threshold for
> that
> (if such a thing exists). You have my attention now.
>


It CAN be done:
http://www.bersonuv.com/index.php?url=news.php&specify=4
http://www.aquafineuv.com/TECHNICAL BRIEFS/Issue 2_Chlorine-Chloramine
edited version.pdf

"Research has shown that UV effectively removes monochloramine at 245nm,
dichloramine at 297nm and trichloramine at 260nm. "
http://www.hanovia.co.uk/press-releases/Swimming Pool Article.htm

-or-

"About twice the UV dose required for disinfection is necessary to break
the bonds of the chloramine compounds. UV systems are designed to
achieve a minimum dose of 60mJ/cm2 at the end of the life of the
lamp(s). At this dosage a single, medium pressure, UV lamp can keep
chloramine levels close to 0ppm in system flows up to 1,000gpm. "
http://www.kieferpool.com/Water Treatment.htm

Having trouble finding an exact zap doseage though... Help?!?

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Donald Kerns]

Marcus Fox wrote:

> Oh yeah, and I REALLY hated Physical Chemistry.
> ^^^^^^^

(smart ass reply)

Hey man, I TOOK P-Chem from Professor Van Hecke at Harvey Mudd College.

Took it good and hard.

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Racf]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Bob K. wrote:
> >
> > >>BTW, anyone know a simple overflow mechanism I can get? I made my
> own
> > >>once - small box glued to outside of tank with a plastic pipe up
from
> > >>the bottom hooked to the drain - the height of the pipe dictated
the
> > >>water level - and a siphon tube tied the little box into the main
> > >>tank.
> > >
> > > I wrote an article for my club, it's on my website
> > > http://members.aol.com/krampetz/water.htm
> > >
> > > It shows a simple overflow with pvc pipes - no box, no glue.
> > > Floor drain completes the overflow. Drip irregation feed
> > > adds the water.
> > >
> >
> > Awsome hack! OK, Bob you've got my attention.
> >
> > On the continuous water change thread you were advocating 50%
changes
> > rather than 10% changes.
> >
> > How do YOU deal with dechlor on your automated setup?
>
> I'm also curious about this. The latest information I have (to also
> remove chloramine) is to use Centaur carbon at about 2.5gpm or slower.
> The life expectancy of the carbon will depend on the concentration of
> chlorine or chloramine in the water, the presense of other
contaminents,
> the amount of water being processed and if you have the ability to
> backwash the carbon bed. If you only have chlorine in your water
supply
> (lucky you), then you could theoretically adjust your input flow to be
> below the acceptable threshold for fish as diluted in the volume of
the
> tank, based on a 24 hour rate of evaporation, -or- feed your supply
into
> a well aerated overhead holding tank with gravity-fed drip lines into
the
> tanks.
>
> NetMax
>
> > -Donald
> > --
> > "When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
> > think straight." -To Inherit the Wind
>
>

I read up a bit on that Centaur catalytic carbon concerning Chloramine
removal. Seems this stuff was developed for Hydrogen Sulfate removal
hence the need to backflow to remove the converted substance. It is
rated at 90% for Chloramine destruction compared to about 20% to 30% for
standard ACs. I see little data suggesting its use for in-line
chloramine removal, mainly the Hydrogen Sulfate, except as marketed by
swimming pool filtering folks. There numbers are not useful for in-line
removal purposes as their targets were 0.4ppm of Chloramine remaining.
The flow rates I saw were all geared to very large beds. The numbers I
saw for the 90% chloramine destruction was a 6 hour exposure.

I am curious as to any actual tests using this stuff for inline
chloramine removal. The $800 systems I saw with auto-backflow did not
claim anything about Chloramine removal.....

[NetMax]

"Racf" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Bob K. wrote:
<snip>
> > >
> > > How do YOU deal with dechlor on your automated setup?
> >
> > I'm also curious about this. The latest information I have (to also
> > remove chloramine) is to use Centaur carbon at about 2.5gpm or
slower.
> > The life expectancy of the carbon will depend on the concentration of
> > chlorine or chloramine in the water, the presense of other
> contaminents,
> > the amount of water being processed and if you have the ability to
> > backwash the carbon bed. If you only have chlorine in your water
> supply
> > (lucky you), then you could theoretically adjust your input flow to
be
> > below the acceptable threshold for fish as diluted in the volume of
> the
> > tank, based on a 24 hour rate of evaporation, -or- feed your supply
> into
> > a well aerated overhead holding tank with gravity-fed drip lines into
> the
> > tanks.
> >
> > NetMax
> >
> > > -Donald
> > > --
> > > "When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability
to
> > > think straight." -To Inherit the Wind
> >
> >
>
> I read up a bit on that Centaur catalytic carbon concerning Chloramine
> removal. Seems this stuff was developed for Hydrogen Sulfate removal
> hence the need to backflow to remove the converted substance. It is
> rated at 90% for Chloramine destruction compared to about 20% to 30%
for
> standard ACs. I see little data suggesting its use for in-line
> chloramine removal, mainly the Hydrogen Sulfate, except as marketed by
> swimming pool filtering folks. There numbers are not useful for
in-line
> removal purposes as their targets were 0.4ppm of Chloramine remaining.
> The flow rates I saw were all geared to very large beds. The numbers I
> saw for the 90% chloramine destruction was a 6 hour exposure.
>
> I am curious as to any actual tests using this stuff for inline
> chloramine removal. The $800 systems I saw with auto-backflow did not
> claim anything about Chloramine removal.....

Another skeptic, good! After being fed a variety of information from
distributors, and wholesalers, I went directly to the manufacturer (and I
believe inventors). They are www.calgoncarbon.com carbon products at
http://www.calgoncarbon.com/industry/producttech/index.php with Centaur
at
http://www.calgoncarbon.com/industry/producttech/carbonprod/CatalyticAdso
rptive_Furn.php .

These folks do carbon in a big way, and are understandably cautious about
making claims for installations where they do not data on all the
variables. I'm getting a list of organic materials normally found in our
water supply, so that they can better estimate the life expectancy of a
carbon bed in my set-up. At the same time, I'll ask them about their
removal target (thanks racf). As they also do UV sterilization, I'll ask
about using UV at 245nm wavelength (thanks Donald) at 333 kj/mol (thanks
Marcus).

Perhaps a solution would be to 'pre-filter' with UV and adsorb the
remnants with the carbon. I wonder what public aquariums do?

NetMax

[Racf]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Racf" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Bob K. wrote:
> <snip>
> > > >
> > > > How do YOU deal with dechlor on your automated setup?
> > >
> > > I'm also curious about this. The latest information I have (to
also
> > > remove chloramine) is to use Centaur carbon at about 2.5gpm or
> slower.
> > > The life expectancy of the carbon will depend on the concentration
of
> > > chlorine or chloramine in the water, the presense of other
> > contaminents,
> > > the amount of water being processed and if you have the ability to
> > > backwash the carbon bed. If you only have chlorine in your water
> > supply
> > > (lucky you), then you could theoretically adjust your input flow
to
> be
> > > below the acceptable threshold for fish as diluted in the volume
of
> > the
> > > tank, based on a 24 hour rate of evaporation, -or- feed your
supply
> > into
> > > a well aerated overhead holding tank with gravity-fed drip lines
into
> > the
> > > tanks.
> > >
> > > NetMax
> > >
> > > > -Donald
> > > > --
> > > > "When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your
ability
> to
> > > > think straight." -To Inherit the Wind
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I read up a bit on that Centaur catalytic carbon concerning
Chloramine
> > removal. Seems this stuff was developed for Hydrogen Sulfate
removal
> > hence the need to backflow to remove the converted substance. It is
> > rated at 90% for Chloramine destruction compared to about 20% to 30%
> for
> > standard ACs. I see little data suggesting its use for in-line
> > chloramine removal, mainly the Hydrogen Sulfate, except as marketed
by
> > swimming pool filtering folks. There numbers are not useful for
> in-line
> > removal purposes as their targets were 0.4ppm of Chloramine
remaining.
> > The flow rates I saw were all geared to very large beds. The
numbers I
> > saw for the 90% chloramine destruction was a 6 hour exposure.
> >
> > I am curious as to any actual tests using this stuff for inline
> > chloramine removal. The $800 systems I saw with auto-backflow did
not
> > claim anything about Chloramine removal.....
>
> Another skeptic, good! After being fed a variety of information from
> distributors, and wholesalers, I went directly to the manufacturer
(and I
> believe inventors). They are www.calgoncarbon.com carbon products at
> http://www.calgoncarbon.com/industry/producttech/index.php with
Centaur
> at
>
http://www.calgoncarbon.com/industry/producttech/carbonprod/CatalyticAdso
> rptive_Furn.php .
>
> These folks do carbon in a big way, and are understandably cautious
about
> making claims for installations where they do not data on all the
> variables. I'm getting a list of organic materials normally found in
our
> water supply, so that they can better estimate the life expectancy of
a
> carbon bed in my set-up. At the same time, I'll ask them about their
> removal target (thanks racf). As they also do UV sterilization, I'll
ask
> about using UV at 245nm wavelength (thanks Donald) at 333 kj/mol
(thanks
> Marcus).
>
> Perhaps a solution would be to 'pre-filter' with UV and adsorb the
> remnants with the carbon. I wonder what public aquariums do?
>
> NetMax
>
>


If you are going to try this Centaur Carbon to get rid of chloramines,
let us know how well it works in an inline application.

[Mike Noren]

Re: chloramine removal... Why don't you just use ascorbic acid
(vitamin C)? A very small amount will dechlorinate a bucket... Another
possibility is sodium sulphite (used in photography and commercial
dechlorinators; slightly less effective but cheaper in bulk).

Both chemicals are effectively non-toxic and in any case you need only
small amounts.

[Bob K.]

>Re: chloramine removal... Why don't you just use ascorbic acid
>(vitamin C)? A very small amount will dechlorinate a bucket... Another
>possibility is sodium sulphite (used in photography and commercial
>dechlorinators; slightly less effective but cheaper in bulk).
>
>Both chemicals are effectively non-toxic and in any case you need only
>small amounts.

?? Have you (or anyone else) used ascorbic acid with fish???
I've never read about it's use in aquatic literature.

Sodium sulphite? Do you maybe mean Sodium Thiosulfate??
Big difference!

Bob (slept throug chemistry 101)