Small tank - fast nitrate build up

[jazz]

Hi,

I'm a bit of a beginner at all this. I have a small 6 gallon tank with
a good filter and an airstone. It's planted up and has 3 x 1 inch
pentazona barbs and 2 x 1/2 inch tiny little cat fish which I though
were bagrus ornatus but I've since discovered are pigmy corys(!) I
also have a lot of quite large trumpet snails - at least 5 over 1 1/4
inches and a seemingly endless supply of smaller ones. The tank is
fully cycled and the Ammonia and Nitrite are consistently at 0 mg/l
(testing every other day). But my nitrates rise much more quickly than
I was expecting - I am doing a 30% water change every other day.

Now the tap water round here is reading 10 mg/l and my tank is reading
20 mg/l after a water change and 40 mg/l two days later. It is as if I
have too many fish, but my local fish shop said I could put more than
this in and it would be fine. It's well under an inch per gallon. The
fish seem well and frisky, as are the snails ,in slower, lick the
glass, kind of way.

I was wondering if anyone can give me some more insight into what's
happening?

I thought it could be: (1) large trumpet snails are adding to the
bioload on the tank (2) overfeeding (I give 5 little flakes twice a day
and every other day swap one of these for a tiny bit of brine shrimp or
bloodworm.) (3) too many fish (4) nitrate kit is unreliable (our
water company said nitrate was much lower than I thought it was.) (5)
I'm misunderstanding where my nitrate parameters should be.

Any help would be happily received!

Thank-you JAZZ

[spiral_72]

A nitrate level of 40 mg/L is just high enough to indicate a problem
IMO and probably not reason enough to change 30% water every other day.
That's a huge amount of water by a larger tank's standards. Can you get
away with 20% twice a week for now?

A high nitrate level can be an indication of NOT gravel vacuuming
properly or at all. Also, I don't know how often you maintain your
filter, but stuff can decompose in there as well.

The water company's nitrate level has very little to do with your
nitrate level out of the tap. A lot can happen in 25 miles of pipe.

My LFS sells nitrate test kits for $10. Is that cheap enough to buy
another kit and compare results? Most LFS will test your water for free
too. Also bottled water (especially distilled) would have a nitrate
level of zero. You could use 5mL of bottled water for a quick test kit
check to verify "zero" and drink the rest. You could also use the water
in a water change. A 25% WC with distilled is like 90 cents. Cheap
enough.

Try adding a couple cheap, fast growing plants like Ambulia. $10 would
plant the whole tank and I think that'd be better than changing all
that water. My plants can consume a massive amount of nitrates from the
water (if conditions are right). I can dose 10mg/L and have zero
serveral days later.

Verify your test kit first! I hope this helps :)

[Altum]

jazz wrote:
<snip>

> I thought it could be: (1) large trumpet snails are adding to the
> bioload on the tank (2) overfeeding (I give 5 little flakes twice a day
> and every other day swap one of these for a tiny bit of brine shrimp or
> bloodworm.) (3) too many fish (4) nitrate kit is unreliable (our
> water company said nitrate was much lower than I thought it was.) (5)
> I'm misunderstanding where my nitrate parameters should be.

(6) No plants. Use java fern, java moss, or low-growing crypts for low
light. Anubias are pretty but don't grow fast enough to absorb a lot of
nitrate. Add small plants like Rotala rotundifolia, baby's tears, dwarf
sagittaria, or floating watersprite to the list if you've got a decent
fluorescent light.

Nitrate kits are not very reliable and your tank doesn't sound as
overstocked as your nitrate tests indicate. 10 ppm is pretty unusual
for tap water. I use Seachem's nitrate test. It comes with a 10 ppm
standard so you can validate your results.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
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[jazz]

spiral_72 wrote:
> A nitrate level of 40 mg/L is just high enough to indicate a problem
> IMO and probably not reason enough to change 30% water every other day.
> That's a huge amount of water by a larger tank's standards. Can you get
> away with 20% twice a week for now?

OK, I can give it a try. The trouble is my nitrate kit goes up to
80mg/l from 40 mg/l and I would be concerned to have fish in conditions
like that. Also, the colour difference between 40 and 80 is almost
non-existant which is a pain.


> A high nitrate level can be an indication of NOT gravel vacuuming
> properly or at all. Also, I don't know how often you maintain your
> filter, but stuff can decompose in there as well.

I have vacuumed the gravel at every water change, apart from the gravel
under the plants. I don't really know whether I am doing a good job of
this or not. I basically use all the time water is syphoning out to
root around in the gravel trying to suck up any muck. It seems pretty
clean. The filter however is another matter - I will clean it
tomorrow. My LFS said rinsing the sponges in just removed tank water
would be best.

>
> The water company's nitrate level has very little to do with your
> nitrate level out of the tap. A lot can happen in 25 miles of pipe.

Quite true although they said they did a test on water from a residents
tap and it was still less than I'm getting. However that tap was 5
miles away which they said didn't matter but I thought it did since our
water main runs through the local farm land and could easily be
contaminated by fertilizer. Ho hum - there seems to be no arguing with
them.

> My LFS sells nitrate test kits for $10. Is that cheap enough to buy
> another kit and compare results? Most LFS will test your water for free
> too. Also bottled water (especially distilled) would have a nitrate
> level of zero. You could use 5mL of bottled water for a quick test kit
> check to verify "zero" and drink the rest. You could also use the water
> in a water change. A 25% WC with distilled is like 90 cents. Cheap
> enough.

I think the bottled water test would be very worthwhile. I will have a
go at that. I will also take a sample up to my LFS who test water for
free for all customers. We'll see then what's really going on.

>
> Try adding a couple cheap, fast growing plants like Ambulia. $10 would
> plant the whole tank and I think that'd be better than changing all
> that water. My plants can consume a massive amount of nitrates from the
> water (if conditions are right). I can dose 10mg/L and have zero
> serveral days later.

I know what you mean, my tank is already planted up - four large plants
and two smaller ones. When I put them in the Nitrate went down from 10
mg/l to 5 mg/l in a day or so! I'm not sure of the names of all that I
chose but I definately have some Java fern and some Cryptocorne
wendtii.

So, I think my plan of action will be:

(1) verify test kit accuracy using bottled water and LFS test.
(2) clean out filter (was planning to do it in ten days time anyway.

Does that sound about right?

Thanks for your advice, JAZZ

[jazz]

Altum wrote:
> (6) No plants. Use java fern, java moss, or low-growing crypts for low
> light. Anubias are pretty but don't grow fast enough to absorb a lot of
> nitrate. Add small plants like Rotala rotundifolia, baby's tears, dwarf
> sagittaria, or floating watersprite to the list if you've got a decent
> fluorescent light.

My aquarium is already planted. I sorry I didn't make that properly
clear in my first post. I have six plants in it (four biggish and 2
small). I will make a note of the varieties you recommend though - as
a beginner it's hard to know what's good and what's not with plants.

Also, I don't know if this makes any difference but I added these
fertilizer balls to the gravel - one near each plant - could these be a
problem?

>
> Nitrate kits are not very reliable and your tank doesn't sound as
> overstocked as your nitrate tests indicate. 10 ppm is pretty unusual
> for tap water. I use Seachem's nitrate test. It comes with a 10 ppm
> standard so you can validate your results.

Having a 10ppm standard in a kit is a really neat idea. My kit is made
by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals and is just called Freshwater Master Test
Kit. I might look up the Seachem one.

Thank-you for your help, JAZZ

[Gill Passman]

jazz wrote:
> Altum wrote:
>
>>(6) No plants. Use java fern, java moss, or low-growing crypts for low
>>light. Anubias are pretty but don't grow fast enough to absorb a lot of
>>nitrate. Add small plants like Rotala rotundifolia, baby's tears, dwarf
>>sagittaria, or floating watersprite to the list if you've got a decent
>>fluorescent light.
>
>
> My aquarium is already planted. I sorry I didn't make that properly
> clear in my first post. I have six plants in it (four biggish and 2
> small). I will make a note of the varieties you recommend though - as
> a beginner it's hard to know what's good and what's not with plants.
>
> Also, I don't know if this makes any difference but I added these
> fertilizer balls to the gravel - one near each plant - could these be a
> problem?
>
>
>>Nitrate kits are not very reliable and your tank doesn't sound as
>>overstocked as your nitrate tests indicate. 10 ppm is pretty unusual
>>for tap water. I use Seachem's nitrate test. It comes with a 10 ppm
>>standard so you can validate your results.
>
>
> Having a 10ppm standard in a kit is a really neat idea. My kit is made
> by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals and is just called Freshwater Master Test
> Kit. I might look up the Seachem one.
>
> Thank-you for your help, JAZZ
>

Depending on what they were I think you have your answer - the
fertilizer balls....try taking them out and see if it makes a difference

Gill

[Altum]

jazz wrote:
<snip>

> Also, I don't know if this makes any difference but I added these
> fertilizer balls to the gravel - one near each plant - could these be a
> problem?

Yes, if they contain ammonium or nitrate. Gravel fertilizers usually
leach into the water column a bit. It's not a problem in a large tank
but you've only got 6 gallons of water. Some packages tell you how many
tablets to use per gallon. I don't usually need gravel fertilizers in
small tanks.

> Having a 10ppm standard in a kit is a really neat idea. My kit is made
> by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals and is just called Freshwater Master Test
> Kit. I might look up the Seachem one.

By all accounts, the AP nitrate tests don't work. The test I use that
came with a standard is the Seachem Multitest Nitrite and Nitrate.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
jazz > wrote:
>
>Altum wrote:
>> (6) No plants. Use java fern, java moss, or low-growing crypts for low
>> light. Anubias are pretty but don't grow fast enough to absorb a lot of
>> nitrate. Add small plants like Rotala rotundifolia, baby's tears, dwarf
>> sagittaria, or floating watersprite to the list if you've got a decent
>> fluorescent light.
>
>My aquarium is already planted. I sorry I didn't make that properly
>clear in my first post. I have six plants in it (four biggish and 2
>small). I will make a note of the varieties you recommend though - as
>a beginner it's hard to know what's good and what's not with plants.

Heavilyu plants means you have no room left for even one more plant.

Floating plants cut down on problems immeasurably.

>Also, I don't know if this makes any difference but I added these
>fertilizer balls to the gravel - one near each plant - could these be a
>problem?
>
>>
>> Nitrate kits are not very reliable and your tank doesn't sound as
>> overstocked as your nitrate tests indicate. 10 ppm is pretty unusual
>> for tap water. I use Seachem's nitrate test. It comes with a 10 ppm
>> standard so you can validate your results.
>
>Having a 10ppm standard in a kit is a really neat idea. My kit is made
>by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals and is just called Freshwater Master Test
>Kit. I might look up the Seachem one.

It's much more likely your test kit is lying to you (happens a lot)
than it is you have 10ppm NO3 in your water.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>Depending on what they were I think you have your answer - the
>fertilizer balls....try taking them out and see if it makes a difference

If they contain ammonia or urea you don't want to use them in a fishtank.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Altum > wrote:
>jazz wrote:
><snip>
>
>> Also, I don't know if this makes any difference but I added these
>> fertilizer balls to the gravel - one near each plant - could these be a
>> problem?
>
>Yes, if they contain ammonium or nitrate. Gravel fertilizers usually
>leach into the water column a bit. It's not a problem in a large tank
>but you've only got 6 gallons of water. Some packages tell you how many
>tablets to use per gallon. I don't usually need gravel fertilizers in
>small tanks.

Nitrte is fine. Ammonia is not. I fertilize everything, even betta
jars with plants. That's how you keep the water clear.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Altum]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>Depending on what they were I think you have your answer - the
>>fertilizer balls....try taking them out and see if it makes a difference
>
>
> If they contain ammonia or urea you don't want to use them in a fishtank.
>
I thought that, until I saw the analysis on Plantabbs.

Plantabbs Guaranteed Analysis:
11 percent total nitrogen
4.9 percent ammoniacal nitrogen
6.1 percent nitrate nitrogen
15 percent available phosphoric acid
20 percent soluble potash

I've used Plantabbs for years to feed swords and crypts with no problems
at all. There are many positive anecdotes about them on the Krib.
Maybe the ammonium is in a timed release form?

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Altum > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>Depending on what they were I think you have your answer - the
>>>fertilizer balls....try taking them out and see if it makes a difference
>>
>>
>> If they contain ammonia or urea you don't want to use them in a fishtank.
>>
>I thought that, until I saw the analysis on Plantabbs.
>
>Plantabbs Guaranteed Analysis:
>11 percent total nitrogen
>4.9 percent ammoniacal nitrogen
>6.1 percent nitrate nitrogen
>15 percent available phosphoric acid
>20 percent soluble potash
>
>I've used Plantabbs for years to feed swords and crypts with no problems
>at all. There are many positive anecdotes about them on the Krib.
>Maybe the ammonium is in a timed release form?

Nope. When they work it's because they're deep enough plants used them
before it can leech intot he water column. If it does, the you ivariably
have an alage problem.

Puting one under some thin grave. with some anacharis for example
almost certainly will give you algae. Stuffing one in to the roots
of a healthy sword or apnogeton in 4-6" of gravel is almost always safe.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[jazz]

Altum wrote:
> jazz wrote:

> Yes, if they contain ammonium or nitrate. Gravel fertilizers usually
> leach into the water column a bit. It's not a problem in a large tank
> but you've only got 6 gallons of water. Some packages tell you how many
> tablets to use per gallon. I don't usually need gravel fertilizers in
> small tanks.

Well, I'm using one called "The 7 Balls" by JBL. It doesn't have a
full contents list but describes the content as "all the nutrients
vital for aquatic plants, especially iron and trace elements". When I
bought it I asked the chap in the shop for fertilizer without phosphate
or nitrate, but the packaging is very unclear, at first glance it looks
like just iron and trace elements. There again, if they really contain
"_all_ nutrients vital for aquatic plants" then I'm guessing they must
have more than that in. I think I will remove them and see what
happens. The more I think about it the more it seems likely to be
this. I have a liquid fertilizer too which specifically says it has no
nitrates or phosphates, so I can use that for the plants.



> By all accounts, the AP nitrate tests don't work. The test I use that
> came with a standard is the Seachem Multitest Nitrite and Nitrate.

I have just looked this up - I can get it in the UK, so I think I will
invest.

Many thanks!

[jazz]

Thanks everyone for some really useful guidance.

I think my plan is going to be:

(1) Remove the JBL balls tomorrow since I can manage without them and
it is not clear what is in them (+ I can't really bury them as deep as
I would like). I will try to do this carefully so as not to release
too much fertilizer into the tank water but I suspect I will need a
significant water change afterwards. Does that sound right?
(2) Compare my Nitrate test with other more adequate tests (buy a
Seachem one and compare my one to the LFS one.)
(3) Clean out the filter in a few days time when things have had time
to settle following the removal of the fertilizer balls.

Do let me know if you think any of the above is ill advised. Thank-you
again for all your help!


JAZZ

[jazz]

Hi again,

I did a water test this morning with the following results:

pH 8.1
Ammonia 0 mg/l
Nitrite 0 mg/l
Nitrate 40 mg/l (again)

Having read Altum's post about the "7 balls" having no nitrate or
phosphate I didn't bother pulling them all out. Instead I did a smaller
water change than I have been doing (20%) and used the water to clean
out my filter. It was quite dirty to very dirty in places. The water
left in the bucket when I was finished was really gross!

Unfortunately my LFS were too busy today to run a test for me and too
busy to guide me about which other test I could buy to use myself (they
didn't have SeaChem). So I ended up going to a Pet Shop instead and
grabbed a test by Tetra.

I saved some water from the tank from before the water change and
tested it with the new test - Nitrate was just over 25 mg/l (much lower
than the 40 mg/l the AP test was giving me.)

So, it seems as if part of my problem is a consistently over reading
test kit and part a dirty filter. I am quite hopeful things might
improve from here.

Thanks again! JAZZ