Ich gone; now fungus?

[FishNoob]

It seems (in my admittedly limited experience) that every time we
treat ich in the aquarium, we then get fungal infections. There are
no signs of ich now (treated with King British - seemed to work
faster than Protozin) but a couple of the fish now have white
patches, including what looks like a ring of white fungus around one
or both eyes.

I'm treating with Melafix, which dealt with this last time - but is
it common to find that after treating ich, other diseases occur?

(This is the first time we've used King British - before we used
Protozin, which should have taken care of the fungus too, shouldn't
it? - it didn't though.)

--
FishNoob

[Altum]

FishNoob wrote:
> It seems (in my admittedly limited experience) that every time we
> treat ich in the aquarium, we then get fungal infections. There are
> no signs of ich now (treated with King British - seemed to work
> faster than Protozin) but a couple of the fish now have white
> patches, including what looks like a ring of white fungus around one
> or both eyes.
>
> I'm treating with Melafix, which dealt with this last time - but is
> it common to find that after treating ich, other diseases occur?
>
> (This is the first time we've used King British - before we used
> Protozin, which should have taken care of the fungus too, shouldn't
> it? - it didn't though.)

Secondary infections can happen after ich. Ich parasites damage skin
and the medicine (often a necessary evil) stresses the fish even more so
you get other problems like fungus, finrot, or Flavobacterium. The
other thing that happens is that whatever stressed the fish to make them
vulnerable to ich makes them vulnerable to other diseases as well.

When you say "every time we treat ich" it sounds as if you're seeing
repeated outbreaks. You really shouldn't be seeing repeated outbreaks
of ich. If you get ich in your tanks every time you add fish, you need
to find a different fish store and/or use better quarantine procedures.
If it's not related to new fish, there's something stressing your fish
that you need find and fix.

As for the Protozin, it might take care of real fungus but it won't help
much with Flavobacterium. It's sometimes hard to tell the two apart
without a microscope.

--
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[FishNoob]

In article . com>,
says...
> Yes this does tend to happen. I noticed it especially when I first
> started out. Particularly with Ich and what I think was columnaris. The
> main reasons for this is that fish who's immune systems are depressed
> tend to get sick. If your fish is stressed and gets Ich it makes sense
> that it could easily get other illness too.

All that makes sense.

> One thing that you can do
> to help stop secondary infections is to determine the source of the
> stress first and treat the illness second. Any number of things could
> be the key. (I have to look back through old posts to see what your set
> up is and what kind of fishy we're talkin' about)

Juwel Rio 125, running with two filters currently (the Rio one and
one from a smaller tank), six (standard) mollies, four danios, two
neon tetras. No live plants (yet - that will be changing this
weekend).

The ich and the fungus have been noted on the mollies.

> I recommend start by
> checking your water parameters. (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, maybe
> kh and gh and water temperature).

All perfect.

> Consider what you have or haven't
> been adding to the tank and who the tankmates are if there are any.
> This isn't a bad place to start.

Nothing new has been added since October. We upgraded to this tank in
November. Other than that, there have been no changes.

> Side note:
> Melafix works well on open sores or wounds but any antibacterial/fungal
> properties it might possess are weak at best.

Its main ingredient is tea-tree oil, right? I know that has great
antibacterial and anti-fungal properties in other situations - why is
it less helpful in aquaria? And what would you recommend instead?

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Secondary infections can happen after ich. Ich parasites damage skin
> and the medicine (often a necessary evil) stresses the fish even more so
> you get other problems like fungus, finrot, or Flavobacterium. The
> other thing that happens is that whatever stressed the fish to make them
> vulnerable to ich makes them vulnerable to other diseases as well.

<nod>

> When you say "every time we treat ich" it sounds as if you're seeing
> repeated outbreaks.

We've had two outbreaks, one at the end of November, one we noticed
about ten days ago.

> You really shouldn't be seeing repeated outbreaks
> of ich. If you get ich in your tanks every time you add fish, you need
> to find a different fish store and/or use better quarantine procedures.
> If it's not related to new fish, there's something stressing your fish
> that you need find and fix.

No new fish this time around, and I can't figure out what could be
stressing them. Water tests are good, the tank is well under-stocked,
etc.

> As for the Protozin, it might take care of real fungus but it won't help
> much with Flavobacterium. It's sometimes hard to tell the two apart
> without a microscope.

We didn't use Protozin this time at all, just King British (as
recommended by the aquarium shop). How would you recommend we treat
now?

--
FishNoob

[Altum]

FishNoob wrote:
<snip>

> Its main ingredient is tea-tree oil, right? I know that has great
> antibacterial and anti-fungal properties in other situations - why is
> it less helpful in aquaria? And what would you recommend instead?

Sick mollies are easy to heal. Salt 'em. Mollies can even live in
seawater. Put them in a quarantine tank or even a pail with an airstone
and gradually add salt over 48 hours until it's 6 grams/litre (2 US
tbsp/gallon). This will kill all freshwater parasites and most
bacteria. Keep ammonia down with AmQuel and frequent water changes
using salted water. Once the mollies are well, very slowly lower the
salt with water changes until they're back in fresh water - plan on it
taking at least a week. (Do NOT try this with anything other than
brackish water fish.)

My take on Melafix: Tea tree oil is not water soluble. In human
medicine it's used anywhere from 1% to full strength in an oil or lotion
base. You're nowhere near that concentration in a fish tank. Besides,
have you ever smelled fresh tea tree oil? It's got a very
characteristic scent and Melafix isn't even close. Any real or imagined
effects from Melafix are more likely from all the solubilizing agents
(ever notice all the bubbles from it?) than tiny amounts of tea tree oil.

Is it mostly your mollies getting sick? Your water may be too soft for
them. Mollies seem to like either hard or slightly salty water. Plants
will tolerate 1 tsp/5 gallons of salt (0.02%) and sometimes even that
much helps mollies stay well.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
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[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Is it mostly your mollies getting sick? Your water may be too soft for
> them. Mollies seem to like either hard or slightly salty water. Plants
> will tolerate 1 tsp/5 gallons of salt (0.02%) and sometimes even that
> much helps mollies stay well.

The mollies are where we notice the ich and the fungus, since most of
them are black, but there are also danios and neon tetras in the
tank, and I assume they are also affected - and not easily treated
with salt. Yes, the water is soft; I wonder if that's part of the
problem. What could I do about that?

--
FishNoob

[Altum]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Is it mostly your mollies getting sick? Your water may be too soft for
>>them. Mollies seem to like either hard or slightly salty water. Plants
>>will tolerate 1 tsp/5 gallons of salt (0.02%) and sometimes even that
>>much helps mollies stay well.
>
>
> The mollies are where we notice the ich and the fungus, since most of
> them are black, but there are also danios and neon tetras in the
> tank, and I assume they are also affected - and not easily treated
> with salt. Yes, the water is soft; I wonder if that's part of the
> problem. What could I do about that?

If you don't see spots on the danios and tetras, don't assume they're
affected. Many fish become immune to ich after they've been exposed to
it once. Mollies in soft water are particularly susceptible to
parasites like ich and velvet and don't seem to develop immunity as easily.

Putting the mollies in salted quarantine serves another purpose. If
your other fish are immune, any parasites in the main tank will die off
in a couple of weeks while the mollies are out of the tank. You could
add a formalin remedy to the main tank if you're concerned but I think
you'll only stress the fish.

As I said above, I think a bit of aquarium salt will help your mollies
stay well. Some people also copper as a preventative, but you can't
keep snails or shrimp very easily. "Shimmy blocks" contain gypsum to
harden the water and copper. IIRC, Molly Bright is also a copper
preparation with a bit of salt. Be careful with the copper - it's hard
on tetras and more toxic in water with low kH.

I wish I had soft water - I've got good molly water here but my favorite
dwarf cichlids and cardinals hate it. You might consider platies if you
want more livebearers. They are more tolerant of soft water than mollies.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
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[Gill Passman]

Altum wrote:
> FishNoob wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>
>>> Is it mostly your mollies getting sick? Your water may be too soft
>>> for them. Mollies seem to like either hard or slightly salty water.
>>> Plants will tolerate 1 tsp/5 gallons of salt (0.02%) and sometimes
>>> even that much helps mollies stay well.
>>
>>
>>
>> The mollies are where we notice the ich and the fungus, since most of
>> them are black, but there are also danios and neon tetras in the tank,
>> and I assume they are also affected - and not easily treated with
>> salt. Yes, the water is soft; I wonder if that's part of the problem.
>> What could I do about that?
>
>
> If you don't see spots on the danios and tetras, don't assume they're
> affected. Many fish become immune to ich after they've been exposed to
> it once. Mollies in soft water are particularly susceptible to
> parasites like ich and velvet and don't seem to develop immunity as easily.
>
> Putting the mollies in salted quarantine serves another purpose. If
> your other fish are immune, any parasites in the main tank will die off
> in a couple of weeks while the mollies are out of the tank. You could
> add a formalin remedy to the main tank if you're concerned but I think
> you'll only stress the fish.
>
> As I said above, I think a bit of aquarium salt will help your mollies
> stay well. Some people also copper as a preventative, but you can't
> keep snails or shrimp very easily. "Shimmy blocks" contain gypsum to
> harden the water and copper. IIRC, Molly Bright is also a copper
> preparation with a bit of salt. Be careful with the copper - it's hard
> on tetras and more toxic in water with low kH.
>
> I wish I had soft water - I've got good molly water here but my favorite
> dwarf cichlids and cardinals hate it. You might consider platies if you
> want more livebearers. They are more tolerant of soft water than mollies.
>

I think it was NetMax who once said that with Mollies it is more likely
that the offspring will be hardier than the original parents...this has
been borne out in the tank where we have Mollies - the parents died
within 6 months but the now fully grown fry that we kept (4 of them) are
over a year old now...

I'd go with the QT the Mollies,salt and treat the ich there...I have
added salt with Neons but am not entirely convinced whether it was the
ich or the salt that killed them off...don't know anything about
Danios...but I have seen other fish in my tank appearing to be immune to
ich even when the Clowns in my case were covered in it...

Gill

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
FishNoob > wrote:
>It seems (in my admittedly limited experience) that every time we
>treat ich in the aquarium, we then get fungal infections. There are
>no signs of ich now (treated with King British - seemed to work
>faster than Protozin) but a couple of the fish now have white
>patches, including what looks like a ring of white fungus around one
>or both eyes.

Just coincidence and a byproduc of unhealthy water. Feed less
and change more water. Without knowing anything ele I'd posit you
need half as many fish. Undertocked tanks have far fewer problems.

I use the "one inch of fish per five gallons" marine forumla for
freshwater and havn't had ick or a tench the problems most poeple
here have since the 70s.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Just coincidence and a byproduc of unhealthy water. Feed less
> and change more water. Without knowing anything ele I'd posit you
> need half as many fish. Undertocked tanks have far fewer problems.
>
> I use the "one inch of fish per five gallons" marine forumla for
> freshwater and havn't had ick or a tench the problems most poeple
> here have since the 70s.

Tank is 125 litres (33 US gallons), currently has six mollies, four
danios and two tetras. Not even close to fully stocked.

--
FishNoob

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
FishNoob > wrote:
>In article >,
>says...
>> Just coincidence and a byproduc of unhealthy water. Feed less
>> and change more water. Without knowing anything ele I'd posit you
>> need half as many fish. Undertocked tanks have far fewer problems.
>>
>> I use the "one inch of fish per five gallons" marine forumla for
>> freshwater and havn't had ick or a tench the problems most poeple
>> here have since the 70s.
>
>Tank is 125 litres (33 US gallons), currently has six mollies, four
>danios and two tetras. Not even close to fully stocked.

6 mollies @ 3" = 18"
4 danes @ 1.5" = 6"
2 tetras @ 1" = 2"
====================
26"

That's more than I'd put in there.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> 6 mollies @ 3" = 18"
> 4 danes @ 1.5" = 6"
> 2 tetras @ 1" = 2"
> ====================
> 26"

Your mollies are twice the size of mine. My danios are about an inch
to the tips of their tails, and my neon tetras are smaller than that.

--
FishNoob

[Koi-Lo]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> 6 mollies @ 3" = 18"
>> 4 danes @ 1.5" = 6"
>> 2 tetras @ 1" = 2"
>> ====================
>> 26"
>
> Your mollies are twice the size of mine. My danios are about an inch
> to the tips of their tails, and my neon tetras are smaller than that.
>
> --
> FishNoob
==========================
Not everyone goes by the old rule of 1" of fish etc. With modern filtration
and partial water changes we can keep a lot more fish in our tanks than we
could or did in the past. Things like algae and parasites existed then as
they do now. There are some people who like the look of a tank with only a
few fish in it. Others like the busy look with as many fish as they can
keep in their tanks. Some are more interested in growing aquarium plants
than they are in fish keeping - to each his or her own.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Your mollies are twice the size of mine. My danios are about an inch
>> to the tips of their tails, and my neon tetras are smaller than that.
>>
>Not everyone goes by the old rule of 1" of fish etc. With modern filtration
>and partial water changes we can keep a lot more fish in our tanks than we
>could or did in the past. Things like algae and parasites existed then as
>they do now. There are some people who like the look of a tank with only a
>few fish in it. Others like the busy look with as many fish as they can
>keep in their tanks. Some are more interested in growing aquarium plants
>than they are in fish keeping - to each his or her own.

Keep in mind this is somebody with a fishtank problem advising sombody else
with a fishtank problem.

I massivly underpopulate tanks and don't have the problems
90% of the people here seem to have.

You don't have to have less fish. You can have a bigger tank.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> Your mollies are twice the size of mine. My danios are about an inch
>>> to the tips of their tails, and my neon tetras are smaller than that.
>>>
>>Not everyone goes by the old rule of 1" of fish etc. With modern
>>filtration
>>and partial water changes we can keep a lot more fish in our tanks than we
>>could or did in the past. Things like algae and parasites existed then as
>>they do now. There are some people who like the look of a tank with only
>>a
>>few fish in it. Others like the busy look with as many fish as they can
>>keep in their tanks. Some are more interested in growing aquarium plants
>>than they are in fish keeping - to each his or her own.
======================================
> Keep in mind this is somebody with a fishtank problem advising sombody
> else
> with a fishtank problem.

To eliminate all fish tank problems it's best not to keep any fish in your
tanks at all! ;-) Honestly, that's the truth. As soon as fish are added
the problems start. I've been keeping fish for years. This is the first
time I've had this tenacious black crud take over any of my tanks no matter
how they were populated.

> I massivly underpopulate tanks and don't have the problems
> 90% of the people here seem to have.
>
> You don't have to have less fish. You can have a bigger tank.

Not everyone can afford a bigger tank and not everyone has space for a
bigger tank. Some apartments, even homes are pretty darn small these days.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>