90 gallon fw not cycling

[Michael]

OK, the 90 gallon has been setup and running for 21 days. I haven't tested
water every day, but here is what is most of the relevant data in my
logbook.

Day 1 setup tank, filtration is a 300 gpm cannister
Treated with NovAqua and Neutral Regulator for chloramines

Day 2 added Cycle (I think this may be worthless, but it was recommended)
added 3 Red Tail Rasboros
2 Rasboros
1 Three spot tetra
water clear test pH = 8 NH3=0 NO2=0

( i many like to let the tank set for a few weeks, but according to what
I read the tank doesn't start to cycle until fish are added)

Day 5 2 Rasboros have poor color, signs of stress/ammonia poisoning

Day 6 2 Rasboros die

Day 7 water clear pH = 8.0 NH3=.25 NO2=0.1
decided may not be enough fish to cycle tank, so added these
before levels got more elevated
3 male guppies
1 Female Platy
1 Male Platy
3 Redtail Rasboros
Total Fish in tank = 12

Day 9 NH3=.25 to 1.5 (test kit is poor, must get a new one)
top off tank w/ 3 gal. distilled water
Guppies look stressed

Day 11 NH3=1.5 (still need a new kit, very hard to tell what color)

Day 14 NH3=.25 to 1.5 (test kit is still poor, must get a new one)
Fish all look good except guppies

Day 15 2 guppies died, last guppy won't last long, other fish all look
good

Day 18 last guppy died
pH= 8.0 NH3=1.5 NO2=0.1 to 0.25 (still need new test
kits)
water still crystal clear
fish look great

Day 19 Yay, new test kits
Added 2 gallon distilled, 1 gallon tap treated with Tetra
Aquaclear to top off tank
Fish look great, added bubble wand, the male platy loves its
NH3 = 1.0 NO2=0
Added Cycle again

Day 21 Fish look good, temp good, water crystal clear
NH3=1.0 NO2=0.25
total fish in tank=
6 redtail rasboros
2 platy
1 three spot tetra

Are there enough fish in the tank for it to work ok ? or do I need to add
more for it to cycle ok?

I probably get some gravel from a friends established tank and add it, would
this help get the cycle working in the tank?

If you read this far, thanks!

Michael

[Michael]

Forgot to mention the cannister media is foam, ceramic biomedia, carbon, and
fine filter foam

Michael

[Racf]

"Michael" > wrote in message
. net...
> OK, the 90 gallon has been setup and running for 21 days. I haven't
tested
> water every day, but here is what is most of the relevant data in my
> logbook.
>
> Day 1 setup tank, filtration is a 300 gpm cannister
> Treated with NovAqua and Neutral Regulator for chloramines
>
> Day 2 added Cycle (I think this may be worthless, but it was
recommended)
> added 3 Red Tail Rasboros
> 2 Rasboros
> 1 Three spot tetra
> water clear test pH = 8 NH3=0 NO2=0
>
> ( i many like to let the tank set for a few weeks, but according
to what
> I read the tank doesn't start to cycle until fish are added)
>
> Day 5 2 Rasboros have poor color, signs of stress/ammonia poisoning
>
> Day 6 2 Rasboros die
>
> Day 7 water clear pH = 8.0 NH3=.25 NO2=0.1
> decided may not be enough fish to cycle tank, so added
these
> before levels got more elevated
> 3 male guppies
> 1 Female Platy
> 1 Male Platy
> 3 Redtail Rasboros
> Total Fish in tank = 12
>
> Day 9 NH3=.25 to 1.5 (test kit is poor, must get a new one)
> top off tank w/ 3 gal. distilled water
> Guppies look stressed
>
> Day 11 NH3=1.5 (still need a new kit, very hard to tell what color)
>
> Day 14 NH3=.25 to 1.5 (test kit is still poor, must get a new
one)
> Fish all look good except guppies
>
> Day 15 2 guppies died, last guppy won't last long, other fish all
look
> good
>
> Day 18 last guppy died
> pH= 8.0 NH3=1.5 NO2=0.1 to 0.25 (still need new
test
> kits)
> water still crystal clear
> fish look great
>
> Day 19 Yay, new test kits
> Added 2 gallon distilled, 1 gallon tap treated with
Tetra
> Aquaclear to top off tank
> Fish look great, added bubble wand, the male platy
loves its
> NH3 = 1.0 NO2=0
> Added Cycle again
>
> Day 21 Fish look good, temp good, water crystal clear
> NH3=1.0 NO2=0.25
> total fish in tank=
> 6 redtail rasboros
> 2 platy
> 1 three spot tetra
>
> Are there enough fish in the tank for it to work ok ? or do I need to
add
> more for it to cycle ok?
>
> I probably get some gravel from a friends established tank and add it,
would
> this help get the cycle working in the tank?
>
> If you read this far, thanks!
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Why not add some aquarium salt and some Amquel so the fish do not die.
You spent a lot of money otherwise so why not a few more bucks so you do
not waste so much on dead fish....

[Robert Flory]

"Michael" > wrote in message
. net...
> OK, the 90 gallon has been setup and running for 21 days. I haven't
tested
> water every day, but here is what is most of the relevant data in my
> logbook.
SNIP>>>>
>
> I probably get some gravel from a friends established tank and add it,
would
> this help get the cycle working in the tank?
>
> If you read this far, thanks!
>
> Michael
>
>
Add some plants and yes get anything from another thank..... used filter
material would be best.

Bob

>
>
>
>

[NetMax]

"Michael" > wrote in message
. net...
> OK, the 90 gallon has been setup and running for 21 days. I haven't
tested
> water every day, but here is what is most of the relevant data in my
> logbook.
>
> Day 1 setup tank, filtration is a 300 gpm cannister
> Treated with NovAqua and Neutral Regulator for chloramines
>
> Day 2 added Cycle (I think this may be worthless, but it was
recommended)
> added 3 Red Tail Rasboros
> 2 Rasboros
> 1 Three spot tetra
> water clear test pH = 8 NH3=0 NO2=0
<snip>
> Day 21 Fish look good, temp good, water crystal clear
> NH3=1.0 NO2=0.25
> total fish in tank=
> 6 redtail rasboros
> 2 platy
> 1 three spot tetra
>
> Are there enough fish in the tank for it to work ok ? or do I need to
add
> more for it to cycle ok?
>
> I probably get some gravel from a friends established tank and add it,
would
> this help get the cycle working in the tank?
>
> If you read this far, thanks!
>
> Michael

The lower your fish-load while cycling, the longer the process takes,
possibly into months. You have 9-10 inches of fish in a 90g tank. My
recommendation would be to pull the fish out and fishless cycle with
liquid ammonia. You probably have all the required species of bacteria,
just not present in large balanced numbers.

Pick any one:
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
http://www.angelfire.com/or2/cichlid102/Tank_chemistry/cycling.htm
http://www.aaquaria.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
http://malawicichlids.com/mw01017.htm
http://www.csupomona.edu/~jskoga/Aquariums/Ammonia.html
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/bcycling.htm
http://www.tanked.netfirms.com/fishless.html

I just drop in enough ammonia once, to bring it up to between 5 and
15ppm, and I wait. That's what has worked for me.
NetMax

[Ultimate]

"Michael" > wrote in message >...
> OK, the 90 gallon has been setup and running for 21 days. I haven't tested
> water every day, but here is what is most of the relevant data in my
> logbook.
>
> Day 1 setup tank, filtration is a 300 gpm cannister
> Treated with NovAqua and Neutral Regulator for chloramines
>
> Day 2 added Cycle (I think this may be worthless, but it was recommended)
> added 3 Red Tail Rasboros
> 2 Rasboros
> 1 Three spot tetra
> water clear test pH = 8 NH3=0 NO2=0
>
> ( i many like to let the tank set for a few weeks, but according to what
> I read the tank doesn't start to cycle until fish are added)
>
> Day 5 2 Rasboros have poor color, signs of stress/ammonia poisoning
>
> Day 6 2 Rasboros die
>
> Day 7 water clear pH = 8.0 NH3=.25 NO2=0.1
> decided may not be enough fish to cycle tank, so added these
> before levels got more elevated
> 3 male guppies
> 1 Female Platy
> 1 Male Platy
> 3 Redtail Rasboros
> Total Fish in tank = 12
>
> Day 9 NH3=.25 to 1.5 (test kit is poor, must get a new one)
> top off tank w/ 3 gal. distilled water
> Guppies look stressed
>
> Day 11 NH3=1.5 (still need a new kit, very hard to tell what color)
>
> Day 14 NH3=.25 to 1.5 (test kit is still poor, must get a new one)
> Fish all look good except guppies
>
> Day 15 2 guppies died, last guppy won't last long, other fish all look
> good
>
> Day 18 last guppy died
> pH= 8.0 NH3=1.5 NO2=0.1 to 0.25 (still need new test
> kits)
> water still crystal clear
> fish look great
>
> Day 19 Yay, new test kits
> Added 2 gallon distilled, 1 gallon tap treated with Tetra
> Aquaclear to top off tank
> Fish look great, added bubble wand, the male platy loves its
> NH3 = 1.0 NO2=0
> Added Cycle again
>
> Day 21 Fish look good, temp good, water crystal clear
> NH3=1.0 NO2=0.25
> total fish in tank=
> 6 redtail rasboros
> 2 platy
> 1 three spot tetra
>
> Are there enough fish in the tank for it to work ok ? or do I need to add
> more for it to cycle ok?
>
> I probably get some gravel from a friends established tank and add it, would
> this help get the cycle working in the tank?
>
> If you read this far, thanks!
>
> Michael

I've cycled every tank I've ever owned with 12 cent walmart feeder
fish. They are hardy and well, indestructable.... Buy 10 and let
them frolic for a month in your tank. When you're ready to put in the
real fish, give the walmart fish to your neighbor kids, feed them to
your favorite predator, or return them to Walmart for free. WORKS
EVERY TIME! Much is written about fishless cycling etc... why bother?

HTH...

[NetMax]

"Ultimate" > wrote in message
om...
> "Michael" > wrote in message
>...
<snip>
> I've cycled every tank I've ever owned with 12 cent walmart feeder
> fish. They are hardy and well, indestructable.... Buy 10 and let
> them frolic for a month in your tank. When you're ready to put in the
> real fish, give the walmart fish to your neighbor kids, feed them to
> your favorite predator, or return them to Walmart for free. WORKS
> EVERY TIME! Much is written about fishless cycling etc... why bother?
>
> HTH...

How is feeder goldfish easier than dumping some ammonia into a tank and
coming back 4 weeks later. Leave the lights off, nobody to feed. Just
keep the filter & heater running. Also no worry about potential diseases
the feeders might introduce.

The down side is you don't get to watch goldfish swimming around for a
month, but considering what they are swimming in (their own toilet), it's
not that bad ;o).

If you bacterially seed your filter, then your cycle could be days
instead of weeks (whether you use ammonia or feeders). Then the
difference is, with feeders, your tank is ready for the same bio-load as
your feeders presented, and with ammonia, the bio-capability will be much
higher, and your risk of pathogens is zero. In both cases, do a massive
w/c to flush the NO3 out. Both work (feeders take a little longer),
ymmv.

Just a different perspective.
NetMax

[NetMax]

"Djay" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Ultimate" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Michael" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > <snip>
> > > I've cycled every tank I've ever owned with 12 cent walmart feeder
> > > fish. They are hardy and well, indestructable.... Buy 10 and let
> > > them frolic for a month in your tank. When you're ready to put in
the
> > > real fish, give the walmart fish to your neighbor kids, feed them
to
> > > your favorite predator, or return them to Walmart for free. WORKS
> > > EVERY TIME! Much is written about fishless cycling etc... why
bother?
> > >
> > > HTH...
> >
> > How is feeder goldfish easier than dumping some ammonia into a tank
and
> > coming back 4 weeks later. Leave the lights off, nobody to feed.
Just
> > keep the filter & heater running. Also no worry about potential
diseases
> > the feeders might introduce.
> >
> > The down side is you don't get to watch goldfish swimming around for
a
> > month, but considering what they are swimming in (their own toilet),
it's
> > not that bad ;o).
> >
> > If you bacterially seed your filter, then your cycle could be days
> > instead of weeks (whether you use ammonia or feeders). Then the
> > difference is, with feeders, your tank is ready for the same bio-load
as
> > your feeders presented, and with ammonia, the bio-capability will be
much
> > higher, and your risk of pathogens is zero. In both cases, do a
massive
> > w/c to flush the NO3 out. Both work (feeders take a little longer),
> > ymmv.
> >
> > Just a different perspective.
> > NetMax
> >
> >
> NetMax,
>
> I thought you had to add ammonia each day to achieve and maintain a
certain
> ppm? That was my understanding anyway. If that's the case then you
will
> be doing something with the tank each day. Why not feed the feeder
fish
> instead? I agree that the best (fastest) way to cycle your aquarium is
by
> seeding from an established aquarium. But for the sake of debate :~)
> wouldn't seeding from an established aquarium also bring in pathogens?
I
> see lots of posts recommending that folks seed their aquariums from the
LFS
> filter sqeezings. Seems like LFS experiences many fish losses that
might be
> attributable to pathogens. Just seems like if you were going to
recommend
> fishless cycling, you wouldn't have also recommended seeding from an
> established tank. You always give excellent advise on these NGs so
help me
> understand!
>
> DJay

All valid points. While the web sites often suggest a daily dose of
ammonia, I've personally done it exactly as described in my first post.
I used one dose, to about 15ppm, covered the basement tank, lights off,
filter running. I then went back to building a tank into a wall,
expecting to move the filter from the cycling tank to my built-in tank.
As construction schedules usually go, I finished long after the basement
tank was cycled, so every few days, I dropped a bit of ammonia in, but
this was after it was completely cycled. I don't doubt that adding
ammonia daily while cycling works too, but I can best comment on my
personal results, which was using only a single dose (with no seeding).

Seeding from another aquarium introduces a disease vector. From a
hobbyist, the chances are minimal. With an LFS, due to their rate of new
fish introductions, their use of medications, their use of water from
wholesalers and transhippers (and their rate of medications), there is a
far greater risk of medication resistance bugs hanging around. I've only
seeded a filter for two customers in the last year. They were both from
this newsgroup, and I had to review my water records and invoices to
locate an aquarium which had no recent arrivals and had never seen any
medications or unexplained deaths. I would not trust any other LFS
tanks, so ymmv.

Cycling (as previously described with feeders, fishless, zebra danios
etc) is only needed to be done with your first tank. Subsequent tanks
you can cross-seed yourself, and then liquid ammonia is only used to keep
them cycled, or to test their capability. Once you have one tank in the
house, I think there is so much nitrifying bacteria in the air that they
almost seed themselves ;~)

If you only seed your filter from someone else (on your first brand new
tank), you still need to potentially experience a cycling, as you don't
know the quantity or effectiveness of the cross-seeding. This is where
ammonia comes in handy. For your 2nd tank, you are more likely to
cross-seed, feed less and just watch the ammonia levels for a few days.

FWIW, for my new customers, I teach them to cross-seed their own tanks,
or from their friend's tanks. I don't usually mention fishless cycling
(and to those I have, they have only shown polite interest), I sell
liquid bacteria (whose only significant measurable effect is to reduce
the amplitude of the spikes and not the time table), I sell them zebra
danios (which they get 100% credit for as soon as the tank is cycled), I
teach them water change religion ;o) and I do free water testing (and
they buy test kits or come back to see me on a regular basis). Sometimes
I take the zebras back as soon as the ammonia has cleared, but they don't
get new fish until their NO2 is zero and their NO3 is within 30ppm of
mine. For new customers who started with a different LFS ;~), I also
sell Ammo lock and aquarium salt.

I don't recommend using feeders (disease vector) or livebearers (our
water is too soft), and I don't offer to seed filters for anyone (my
filters are neither readily accessible, nor completely pristine). I
discourage the sale of expensive fish into new tanks, otherwise water
change as a new religion gets a 2nd hearing, (complete with a colour
chart showing ammonia & nitrite accumulation from day 1 to day 38 :o). I
reserve the 'swimming in their own toilet' observation for only those who
don't seem to 'get' it.

I hope that helps. It's not black & white, and I only have my research &
limited experiences to base my opinion, but I think I've saved a few
fish. I give the cycling story at _least_ 3 times a day at work,
sometimes to more than 1 person at a time, or to one after another like a
broken record *whew* (and then I post in the aquaria newsgroups like the
fish-addict I am ;o).

NetMax

[Djay]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Djay" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Ultimate" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > "Michael" > wrote in message
> > > >...
> > > <snip>
> > > > I've cycled every tank I've ever owned with 12 cent walmart feeder
> > > > fish. They are hardy and well, indestructable.... Buy 10 and let
> > > > them frolic for a month in your tank. When you're ready to put in
> the
> > > > real fish, give the walmart fish to your neighbor kids, feed them
> to
> > > > your favorite predator, or return them to Walmart for free. WORKS
> > > > EVERY TIME! Much is written about fishless cycling etc... why
> bother?
> > > >
> > > > HTH...
> > >
> > > How is feeder goldfish easier than dumping some ammonia into a tank
> and
> > > coming back 4 weeks later. Leave the lights off, nobody to feed.
> Just
> > > keep the filter & heater running. Also no worry about potential
> diseases
> > > the feeders might introduce.
> > >
> > > The down side is you don't get to watch goldfish swimming around for
> a
> > > month, but considering what they are swimming in (their own toilet),
> it's
> > > not that bad ;o).
> > >
> > > If you bacterially seed your filter, then your cycle could be days
> > > instead of weeks (whether you use ammonia or feeders). Then the
> > > difference is, with feeders, your tank is ready for the same bio-load
> as
> > > your feeders presented, and with ammonia, the bio-capability will be
> much
> > > higher, and your risk of pathogens is zero. In both cases, do a
> massive
> > > w/c to flush the NO3 out. Both work (feeders take a little longer),
> > > ymmv.
> > >
> > > Just a different perspective.
> > > NetMax
> > >
> > >
> > NetMax,
> >
> > I thought you had to add ammonia each day to achieve and maintain a
> certain
> > ppm? That was my understanding anyway. If that's the case then you
> will
> > be doing something with the tank each day. Why not feed the feeder
> fish
> > instead? I agree that the best (fastest) way to cycle your aquarium is
> by
> > seeding from an established aquarium. But for the sake of debate :~)
> > wouldn't seeding from an established aquarium also bring in pathogens?
> I
> > see lots of posts recommending that folks seed their aquariums from the
> LFS
> > filter sqeezings. Seems like LFS experiences many fish losses that
> might be
> > attributable to pathogens. Just seems like if you were going to
> recommend
> > fishless cycling, you wouldn't have also recommended seeding from an
> > established tank. You always give excellent advise on these NGs so
> help me
> > understand!
> >
> > DJay
>
> All valid points. While the web sites often suggest a daily dose of
> ammonia, I've personally done it exactly as described in my first post.
> I used one dose, to about 15ppm, covered the basement tank, lights off,
> filter running. I then went back to building a tank into a wall,
> expecting to move the filter from the cycling tank to my built-in tank.
> As construction schedules usually go, I finished long after the basement
> tank was cycled, so every few days, I dropped a bit of ammonia in, but
> this was after it was completely cycled. I don't doubt that adding
> ammonia daily while cycling works too, but I can best comment on my
> personal results, which was using only a single dose (with no seeding).
>
> Seeding from another aquarium introduces a disease vector. From a
> hobbyist, the chances are minimal. With an LFS, due to their rate of new
> fish introductions, their use of medications, their use of water from
> wholesalers and transhippers (and their rate of medications), there is a
> far greater risk of medication resistance bugs hanging around. I've only
> seeded a filter for two customers in the last year. They were both from
> this newsgroup, and I had to review my water records and invoices to
> locate an aquarium which had no recent arrivals and had never seen any
> medications or unexplained deaths. I would not trust any other LFS
> tanks, so ymmv.
>
> Cycling (as previously described with feeders, fishless, zebra danios
> etc) is only needed to be done with your first tank. Subsequent tanks
> you can cross-seed yourself, and then liquid ammonia is only used to keep
> them cycled, or to test their capability. Once you have one tank in the
> house, I think there is so much nitrifying bacteria in the air that they
> almost seed themselves ;~)
>
> If you only seed your filter from someone else (on your first brand new
> tank), you still need to potentially experience a cycling, as you don't
> know the quantity or effectiveness of the cross-seeding. This is where
> ammonia comes in handy. For your 2nd tank, you are more likely to
> cross-seed, feed less and just watch the ammonia levels for a few days.
>
> FWIW, for my new customers, I teach them to cross-seed their own tanks,
> or from their friend's tanks. I don't usually mention fishless cycling
> (and to those I have, they have only shown polite interest), I sell
> liquid bacteria (whose only significant measurable effect is to reduce
> the amplitude of the spikes and not the time table), I sell them zebra
> danios (which they get 100% credit for as soon as the tank is cycled), I
> teach them water change religion ;o) and I do free water testing (and
> they buy test kits or come back to see me on a regular basis). Sometimes
> I take the zebras back as soon as the ammonia has cleared, but they don't
> get new fish until their NO2 is zero and their NO3 is within 30ppm of
> mine. For new customers who started with a different LFS ;~), I also
> sell Ammo lock and aquarium salt.
>
> I don't recommend using feeders (disease vector) or livebearers (our
> water is too soft), and I don't offer to seed filters for anyone (my
> filters are neither readily accessible, nor completely pristine). I
> discourage the sale of expensive fish into new tanks, otherwise water
> change as a new religion gets a 2nd hearing, (complete with a colour
> chart showing ammonia & nitrite accumulation from day 1 to day 38 :o). I
> reserve the 'swimming in their own toilet' observation for only those who
> don't seem to 'get' it.
>
> I hope that helps. It's not black & white, and I only have my research &
> limited experiences to base my opinion, but I think I've saved a few
> fish. I give the cycling story at _least_ 3 times a day at work,
> sometimes to more than 1 person at a time, or to one after another like a
> broken record *whew* (and then I post in the aquaria newsgroups like the
> fish-addict I am ;o).
>
> NetMax
>
NetMax

You are amazing! The depth and patience of this post deserves a round of
applause! I wish you were the LFS operator in my area. You must have a
very loyal customer base. You are among the few that post to genuinely
bring understanding to and promote the hobby. The service you provide to
this group is incalculable! Thanks!

DJay

[David Willett]

I wish I had a LFS that dedicated! I just moved to OH from CA and now I
can't find any fish only stores! In CA there were a few, but small, good
quality stores.

(I should specify that I was in northern CA, Bay area)

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Djay" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Ultimate" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > "Michael" > wrote in message
> > > >...
> > > <snip>
> > > > I've cycled every tank I've ever owned with 12 cent walmart feeder
> > > > fish. They are hardy and well, indestructable.... Buy 10 and let
> > > > them frolic for a month in your tank. When you're ready to put in
> the
> > > > real fish, give the walmart fish to your neighbor kids, feed them
> to
> > > > your favorite predator, or return them to Walmart for free. WORKS
> > > > EVERY TIME! Much is written about fishless cycling etc... why
> bother?
> > > >
> > > > HTH...
> > >
> > > How is feeder goldfish easier than dumping some ammonia into a tank
> and
> > > coming back 4 weeks later. Leave the lights off, nobody to feed.
> Just
> > > keep the filter & heater running. Also no worry about potential
> diseases
> > > the feeders might introduce.
> > >
> > > The down side is you don't get to watch goldfish swimming around for
> a
> > > month, but considering what they are swimming in (their own toilet),
> it's
> > > not that bad ;o).
> > >
> > > If you bacterially seed your filter, then your cycle could be days
> > > instead of weeks (whether you use ammonia or feeders). Then the
> > > difference is, with feeders, your tank is ready for the same bio-load
> as
> > > your feeders presented, and with ammonia, the bio-capability will be
> much
> > > higher, and your risk of pathogens is zero. In both cases, do a
> massive
> > > w/c to flush the NO3 out. Both work (feeders take a little longer),
> > > ymmv.
> > >
> > > Just a different perspective.
> > > NetMax
> > >
> > >
> > NetMax,
> >
> > I thought you had to add ammonia each day to achieve and maintain a
> certain
> > ppm? That was my understanding anyway. If that's the case then you
> will
> > be doing something with the tank each day. Why not feed the feeder
> fish
> > instead? I agree that the best (fastest) way to cycle your aquarium is
> by
> > seeding from an established aquarium. But for the sake of debate :~)
> > wouldn't seeding from an established aquarium also bring in pathogens?
> I
> > see lots of posts recommending that folks seed their aquariums from the
> LFS
> > filter sqeezings. Seems like LFS experiences many fish losses that
> might be
> > attributable to pathogens. Just seems like if you were going to
> recommend
> > fishless cycling, you wouldn't have also recommended seeding from an
> > established tank. You always give excellent advise on these NGs so
> help me
> > understand!
> >
> > DJay
>
> All valid points. While the web sites often suggest a daily dose of
> ammonia, I've personally done it exactly as described in my first post.
> I used one dose, to about 15ppm, covered the basement tank, lights off,
> filter running. I then went back to building a tank into a wall,
> expecting to move the filter from the cycling tank to my built-in tank.
> As construction schedules usually go, I finished long after the basement
> tank was cycled, so every few days, I dropped a bit of ammonia in, but
> this was after it was completely cycled. I don't doubt that adding
> ammonia daily while cycling works too, but I can best comment on my
> personal results, which was using only a single dose (with no seeding).
>
> Seeding from another aquarium introduces a disease vector. From a
> hobbyist, the chances are minimal. With an LFS, due to their rate of new
> fish introductions, their use of medications, their use of water from
> wholesalers and transhippers (and their rate of medications), there is a
> far greater risk of medication resistance bugs hanging around. I've only
> seeded a filter for two customers in the last year. They were both from
> this newsgroup, and I had to review my water records and invoices to
> locate an aquarium which had no recent arrivals and had never seen any
> medications or unexplained deaths. I would not trust any other LFS
> tanks, so ymmv.
>
> Cycling (as previously described with feeders, fishless, zebra danios
> etc) is only needed to be done with your first tank. Subsequent tanks
> you can cross-seed yourself, and then liquid ammonia is only used to keep
> them cycled, or to test their capability. Once you have one tank in the
> house, I think there is so much nitrifying bacteria in the air that they
> almost seed themselves ;~)
>
> If you only seed your filter from someone else (on your first brand new
> tank), you still need to potentially experience a cycling, as you don't
> know the quantity or effectiveness of the cross-seeding. This is where
> ammonia comes in handy. For your 2nd tank, you are more likely to
> cross-seed, feed less and just watch the ammonia levels for a few days.
>
> FWIW, for my new customers, I teach them to cross-seed their own tanks,
> or from their friend's tanks. I don't usually mention fishless cycling
> (and to those I have, they have only shown polite interest), I sell
> liquid bacteria (whose only significant measurable effect is to reduce
> the amplitude of the spikes and not the time table), I sell them zebra
> danios (which they get 100% credit for as soon as the tank is cycled), I
> teach them water change religion ;o) and I do free water testing (and
> they buy test kits or come back to see me on a regular basis). Sometimes
> I take the zebras back as soon as the ammonia has cleared, but they don't
> get new fish until their NO2 is zero and their NO3 is within 30ppm of
> mine. For new customers who started with a different LFS ;~), I also
> sell Ammo lock and aquarium salt.
>
> I don't recommend using feeders (disease vector) or livebearers (our
> water is too soft), and I don't offer to seed filters for anyone (my
> filters are neither readily accessible, nor completely pristine). I
> discourage the sale of expensive fish into new tanks, otherwise water
> change as a new religion gets a 2nd hearing, (complete with a colour
> chart showing ammonia & nitrite accumulation from day 1 to day 38 :o). I
> reserve the 'swimming in their own toilet' observation for only those who
> don't seem to 'get' it.
>
> I hope that helps. It's not black & white, and I only have my research &
> limited experiences to base my opinion, but I think I've saved a few
> fish. I give the cycling story at _least_ 3 times a day at work,
> sometimes to more than 1 person at a time, or to one after another like a
> broken record *whew* (and then I post in the aquaria newsgroups like the
> fish-addict I am ;o).
>
> NetMax
>
>