Help - the GOT MILK look on my tetras??

[Paul S. Walsh]

OK, I'm trying not to panic here but 3 of my 5 brand new Colombian red-blue
tetras have neat, trim little white moustaches painted on their upper lips.
I assumed they were natural or came from scuffing their upper lips on rocks
or each other but I was reading last night about "Mouth Fungus" and now I'm
a bit shaken up.

In all other ways, they all seem happy and are frolicking and feeding just
fine.

Anyone seen this phenomenon or know what it can mean?


-Paul S. Walsh
http://www.valariekeaton.com/aquarium/

[Cam]

Hey Paul....

Really strange that you mention that because about a week ago 3 of the 4 red
eyed Tetras have developed exactly the same symptoms you describe, one of
them also seems to have very lightish grey patches all over. I've added a
touch of salt to the tank. It has'nt gotten any worse but also not any
better either. Could it maybe be linked to the changing of the seasons?
(Temp. fluctuations)....can anyone offer help?

Regards
Cam
Got Milk? :)

"Paul S. Walsh" > wrote in message
...
> OK, I'm trying not to panic here but 3 of my 5 brand new Colombian
red-blue
> tetras have neat, trim little white moustaches painted on their upper
lips.
> I assumed they were natural or came from scuffing their upper lips on
rocks
> or each other but I was reading last night about "Mouth Fungus" and now
I'm
> a bit shaken up.
>
> In all other ways, they all seem happy and are frolicking and feeding just
> fine.
>
> Anyone seen this phenomenon or know what it can mean?
>
>
> -Paul S. Walsh
> http://www.valariekeaton.com/aquarium/
>
>

[Flash Wilson]

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:10:41 -0700, Paul S. Walsh
> wrote:
>OK, I'm trying not to panic here but 3 of my 5 brand new Colombian red-blue
>tetras have neat, trim little white moustaches painted on their upper lips.
>I assumed they were natural or came from scuffing their upper lips on rocks
>or each other but I was reading last night about "Mouth Fungus" and now I'm
>a bit shaken up.

When I established a tank with tetras in it I had a problem with
mouth fungus - and I'd never seen it before either.

I treated it with Esha 2000 which is a kind of "cure all" here
in the UK - I really recommend it and it's gentle on the fish.
If you can't source it, get another treatment which says it will
tackle mouth fungus - a few of mine died before I realised and
treated them. Hate for yours to go the same way ;(


--
Flash Wilson Webmaster & UNIX SysAdmin
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http://www.gorge.org Perl / Shell / SQL / HTML

[Cam]

Flash to the rescue...

Thanks mate...much appreciated. So is it common for Tetras to suffer from
mouth fungus? This is the first time in 3 years any of my fish have suffered
a fungus related illness. Not a good sign, think I'll do a hefty water
change over the weekend.

Regards
Cam

[Flash Wilson]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:46:31 +0200, Cam > wrote:
>Flash to the rescue...

Um, maybe. Trying to help anyway.

>Thanks mate...much appreciated. So is it common for Tetras to suffer from
>mouth fungus? This is the first time in 3 years any of my fish have suffered
>a fungus related illness. Not a good sign, think I'll do a hefty water
>change over the weekend.

I don't know if it's common; this was my first experience of keeping
them. Prior to this I'd only kept hardier fish. Well anyway, it happened
pretty soon after I got them, and all the fish suffered from something,
we had sudden death in cardinals as well. Esha 2000 was a great treatment
and that's why I'm happy to recommend it - things also picked up when
I cleaned the filter out a bit more thoroughly than usual and introduced
an air pump - although the tank was not overloaded, and had previously
supported a lot more fish. So I am guessing tetras are more sensitive
than I'm used to - whether that means they have a tendency to get mouth
fungus specifically, I don't know! Not an expert I'm afraid, I can only
chip in with anecdotes of what I've seen. It's a great tank now they've
settled though, very pretty :)


--
. ( www.gorge.org/fish )
\_____)\_____ O
/--v____ __`< . o
)/

[Paul S. Walsh]

Thanks for all the responses on this, folks. I actually set my tank up with
a little salt ( just over a week ago) and after watching my little guys for
the last 36 hours, I do believe I'm seeing a little improvement. My LFS
recommended using Melafix (aquaria tempered Tee Tree (Eucalyptus oil)) which
is widely regarded as quite safe but I think I might hold off on that and
see if my salt content isn't already effecting something of a cure here.

Only 3 of my 5 are affected and the white "moustache" on the worst afflicted
one has diminished by half just on the last 36 hours.

I will keep my fins crossed.


-Paul S. Walsh
http://www.valariekeaton.com/aquarium/


"Cam" > wrote in message ...
> Hey Paul....
>
> Really strange that you mention that because about a week ago 3 of the 4
red
> eyed Tetras have developed exactly the same symptoms you describe, one of
> them also seems to have very lightish grey patches all over. I've added a
> touch of salt to the tank. It has'nt gotten any worse but also not any
> better either. Could it maybe be linked to the changing of the seasons?
> (Temp. fluctuations)....can anyone offer help?
>
> Regards
> Cam
> Got Milk? :)

[Surgicalrn]

If you're referring to Lampeye tetras with the red eyes, silver bodies and a
black bar on their tail I have already been through this "Got Milk" thing
with mine. Of the original school of seven I have two left. I believe this
is cotton mouth, a bacterial infection that rots the tissues and then a
secondary fungal infection which causes the white mouth. The grey patches
are what's known as septicemia with the same bacteria that is eating the
flesh on the head infects the blood and begins to eat away from the inside.
One of my poor tetras actually had his head beome mishapen and swollen to
the point that he coulnd't eat and I finally euthanized him as he was
starving to death on top of having his flesh eaten away. Another ended up
with the grey spots and then developed kidney failure and becaome a little
"pinecone" before dying horribly one day. Added salt to tank and it got a
little better for a bit and then started to get worse. Melafix was used for
a week and now the remaining two are all better! Get Melafix now!!! Start
treating them or you will end up with no more tetras or severly deformed
tetras.

[Paul S. Walsh]

Whoa, sounds bad, Surgicalrn... Sorry to hear you went through all that and
I won't let your experience be in vain. I do believe I will pick up the
Melafix today (I just read a terrific review of it's effectiveness in a
controlled experiment and they detected no adverse effects on the bio filter
from its use).

I have, however, just developed an alternative theory to explain the little
white-ish moustaches - little crescents, actually. The flourescent light in
my Eclipse-12 tank is housed in a protective plastic cover that hovers just
above the surface of the water. The last time I lifted the lid for a water
change, I noticed that this clear cover had faint splotches of what I took
to be salt or, more probably, Alkaline deposits. When my tetras are feeding,
they often dart to the surface at the speed of light to scarff a bit of
flake or blood worm and I think they might be just bumping or nosing the
light cover a bit when they do that and scraping off just a bit of that
white deposit when they do.

Unlike us, they have no tongues so they can't lick their lips :-)

I will try the Melafix, keep a close watch, and report my findings here.
Thanks, again, to all who have replied.

-Paul S. Walsh
http://www.valariekeaton.com/aquarium/


"Surgicalrn" > wrote in message
...
> If you're referring to Lampeye tetras with the red eyes, silver bodies and
a
> black bar on their tail I have already been through this "Got Milk" thing
> with mine. Of the original school of seven I have two left. I believe this
> is cotton mouth, a bacterial infection that rots the tissues and then a
> secondary fungal infection which causes the white mouth. The grey patches
> are what's known as septicemia with the same bacteria that is eating the
> flesh on the head infects the blood and begins to eat away from the
inside.
> One of my poor tetras actually had his head beome mishapen and swollen to
> the point that he coulnd't eat and I finally euthanized him as he was
> starving to death on top of having his flesh eaten away. Another ended up
> with the grey spots and then developed kidney failure and becaome a little
> "pinecone" before dying horribly one day. Added salt to tank and it got a
> little better for a bit and then started to get worse. Melafix was used
for
> a week and now the remaining two are all better! Get Melafix now!!! Start
> treating them or you will end up with no more tetras or severly deformed
> tetras.
>

[Paul S. Walsh]

I web-sketched a graphic illustration of my proposed explanation of the
"White Crescent" problem:

http://www.valariekeaton.com/aquarium/lip.htm


-Paul S. Walsh

[Surgicalrn]

Don't you think if the white stuff on the light cover is "salt" deposits and
the fish are getting little "salt moustaches" when they dart up to eat that
the "salt" would dissolve back into the water as the fish swim and breathe?
I've watched my fish and they keep enough tubidity going on in front of them
to dissolve any "salt" they would get from doing what you describe. Nice try
though ;-)

[Paul S. Walsh]

Hey, I admit it's a reach but I can tell you that what ever it is, it does
not just dissolve easily. I just tried to clean it off the light cover and
though the more recent layer of film cleaned off, the older stuff was
completely resistant to hard scrubbing with a wet paper towel - even for a
full minute. It think mere salt would have come off in that amount of time.
These also could be quarelling injuries. This is a very contentious batch of
Tets, calmer since I brought the number up to 5 but they still go at it from
time to time.

-Paul


"Surgicalrn" > wrote in message
...
> Don't you think if the white stuff on the light cover is "salt" deposits
and
> the fish are getting little "salt moustaches" when they dart up to eat
that
> the "salt" would dissolve back into the water as the fish swim and
breathe?
> I've watched my fish and they keep enough tubidity going on in front of
them
> to dissolve any "salt" they would get from doing what you describe. Nice
try
> though ;-)
>

[Flash Wilson]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:49:47 -0700, Paul S. Walsh
> wrote:
>recommended using Melafix (aquaria tempered Tee Tree (Eucalyptus oil)) which

It's safe, and it promotes healing, but I don't believe it has any
antibiotic property (yes I know it claims to!) so would not help.

Melafix is great for repairing fin and battle damage, but not for anything
else in my experience.



--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
About me: http://www.gorge.org
About Leyton, East London: http://leyton.info

[Surgicalrn]

Your comments just prove my point further. If you can't get it off then the
fish aren't going to get it on them when they come into contact with the
light cover ;-) What they would have on them would be that same "newer"
stuff that comes off easily. Anyway- it doesn't matter in the great scheme
of things. They're damaged or sick and need treatment or you run the risk of
losing those quarrelsome guys altogether. Melafix should do fine and it's
one of the few medications that is okay for inverts and scaleless fish so
it's good to have around anyway. You can even get a concentrated form that
treats 1000s of gallons of water. I'm gonna end this here as I'm starting to
sound like an add for the stuff.

[Surgicalrn]

Actually alot of essential oils from plants have antibiotic properties.
Patcholi oil, most if not all mints, cedar oil... all effective antibiotics
topically. The eucalyptis that the oil comes from that they use in Melafix
DOES have antibiotic properties... proven medically. It's mainly good
topically as it gets broken down in the intestinal tract but still a good
topical antibiotic (think of it as neosporin for fish!).

[Paul S. Walsh]

OK, Doc, - you've sold me on the Melafix :-)

I use teatree oil myself for a variety of things and it is a terrific
substance. I just did a 50% water change and now I'm out the door to the
LFS for the M.

I'll let you know how it goes.

-Paul




"Surgicalrn" > wrote in message
...
> Actually alot of essential oils from plants have antibiotic properties.
> Patcholi oil, most if not all mints, cedar oil... all effective
antibiotics
> topically. The eucalyptis that the oil comes from that they use in Melafix
> DOES have antibiotic properties... proven medically. It's mainly good
> topically as it gets broken down in the intestinal tract but still a good
> topical antibiotic (think of it as neosporin for fish!).
>

[>]

To jump in the middle here, to clean the white stuff off your glass, use
white vinegar. Being careful not to get much in the water, it will affect
your ph.

JOhn :-)

"Paul S. Walsh" > wrote in message
...
> Hey, I admit it's a reach but I can tell you that what ever it is, it does
> not just dissolve easily. I just tried to clean it off the light cover
and
> though the more recent layer of film cleaned off, the older stuff was
> completely resistant to hard scrubbing with a wet paper towel - even for a
> full minute. It think mere salt would have come off in that amount of
time.
> These also could be quarelling injuries. This is a very contentious batch
of
> Tets, calmer since I brought the number up to 5 but they still go at it
from
> time to time.
>
> -Paul
>
>
> "Surgicalrn" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Don't you think if the white stuff on the light cover is "salt" deposits
> and
> > the fish are getting little "salt moustaches" when they dart up to eat
> that
> > the "salt" would dissolve back into the water as the fish swim and
> breathe?
> > I've watched my fish and they keep enough tubidity going on in front of
> them
> > to dissolve any "salt" they would get from doing what you describe. Nice
> try
> > though ;-)
> >
>
>

[Paul S. Walsh]

Thanks for the tip - it's only on my light cover though, so I think I'll
just let it be.


-Paul


"><(((\"> John Lange" > wrote in
message et...
> To jump in the middle here, to clean the white stuff off your glass, use
> white vinegar. Being careful not to get much in the water, it will affect
> your ph.
>
> JOhn :-)
>
> "Paul S. Walsh" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hey, I admit it's a reach but I can tell you that what ever it is, it
does
> > not just dissolve easily. I just tried to clean it off the light cover
> and
> > though the more recent layer of film cleaned off, the older stuff was
> > completely resistant to hard scrubbing with a wet paper towel - even for
a
> > full minute. It think mere salt would have come off in that amount of
> time.
> > These also could be quarelling injuries. This is a very contentious
batch
> of
> > Tets, calmer since I brought the number up to 5 but they still go at it
> from
> > time to time.
> >
> > -Paul
> >
> >
> > "Surgicalrn" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Don't you think if the white stuff on the light cover is "salt"
deposits
> > and
> > > the fish are getting little "salt moustaches" when they dart up to eat
> > that
> > > the "salt" would dissolve back into the water as the fish swim and
> > breathe?
> > > I've watched my fish and they keep enough tubidity going on in front
of
> > them
> > > to dissolve any "salt" they would get from doing what you describe.
Nice
> > try
> > > though ;-)
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Flash Wilson]

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:11:00 GMT, Surgicalrn > wrote:
>topically. The eucalyptis that the oil comes from that they use in Melafix
>DOES have antibiotic properties... proven medically. It's mainly good

I only said that I personally didn't believe it worked that way,
and nor does http://www.koivet.com/coolstuff/melafix/ for example.
I have never seen any research that makes me believe it to be the
case (I've seen people argue both ways) and it's never made my
fish better in any way other than simple fin or battle damage.
I've always needed to treat the underlying cause as well. So I just
gave my experience. I know it's a topic on which people seem to
disagree.

I found this article helpful:
<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=sCp0b.2222%24
HB4.341826%40news20.bellglobal.com>
in which Netmax said that Melafix wasn't very strong - maybe that's
the thing; maybe mine needed something strong and so I didn't see
the difference.

--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
About me: http://www.gorge.org
About Leyton, East London: http://leyton.info