what the heck's bumping off my fish?

[brocpuffs]

Old question, new question-er! This is a dupe of a post to
rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc.


I have a 20 gallon tank, cycling just fine, no ammonia or nitrItes,
hardness and nitrAte on the high side but not really bad. No real
plants. I have a filter rated for a 20 gallon tank, and change 5
gallons of water every two weeks more or less.

The tank occupants are:

- four raspboras, old time residents and chubby as they can get;
- two clown loaches, which have annihilated my snail problem;
- one neon tetra, I have tried many times to get him some friends,
they all die practically overnight;
- about 4 guppies with glorious fancy names such as "Tequila Sunrise"
and so on. They have HUGE tails that never stop flipping, and
they're likeable, unafraid, very active and extremely curious.

OK the problem is, when I change the water, I always lose one or two
fish. I put 1 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon water. and a drop
(recommended) of chloramine neutralizer. I vacuum the gravel carefully
so as to not get a lot of crud floating around. I don't mean there's a
lot of crud, just that I do my best to keep the water clean.

A day or two later, I see a fish that was fine before, staying at the
surface and hunched over a little in the middle, as if it had a
stomach cramp. Slowly, over a week or so, it becomes slower and
weaker, and finally dies. It's totally frustrating watching the little
guy fade away!

What could be doing this!? Should I use more chloramine neutralizer?
(Will that stuff hurt the fish if I put it in a tank with live fish in
it?)

Will chloramine neutralizer be inactivated by salt, since I usually
put salt in the empty storage jugs, then add a drop (recommended) of
chloramine neutralizer, then fill 'em up?

Our home is kind of noisy, I have some woodworking power tools and do
some LOUD chisel cutting.

any suggestions welcome!!

James

[Paul]

>OK the problem is, when I change the water, I always lose one or two
>fish. I put 1 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon water. and a drop
>(recommended) of chloramine neutralizer. I vacuum the gravel carefully
>so as to not get a lot of crud floating around. I don't mean there's a
>lot of crud, just that I do my best to keep the water clean.
>
>A day or two later, I see a fish that was fine before, staying at the
>surface and hunched over a little in the middle, as if it had a
>stomach cramp. Slowly, over a week or so, it becomes slower and
>weaker, and finally dies. It's totally frustrating watching the little
>guy fade away!
>
>What could be doing this!? Should I use more chloramine neutralizer?
>(Will that stuff hurt the fish if I put it in a tank with live fish in
>it?)
>
>Will chloramine neutralizer be inactivated by salt, since I usually
>put salt in the empty storage jugs, then add a drop (recommended) of
>chloramine neutralizer, then fill 'em up?

the problem is probably related to one of the following things:

1. Chlorine/Chloromine. Make sure you have a netralizer that will remove
both these substances, and also ensure that you are READING THE INSTRUCTIONS
PROPERLY. When you say you are putting a "drop" in every time you do a water
change, if that's just one little droplet, then something is wrong. my
neutralizer says to use one drop (1/10 of a ml) per litre, so that's about
1ml per 10 litres. sorry I don't want to sound patronising, but it can be
very easy to misread instructions, I've done it before myself.

2. temperature difference. Is there a huge difference in temp between your
tap water and tank water? if so, then you should attempt to adjust the temp
of the water before adding it into the tank.

3. Chemical poisoning. This is another basic one, and I don't want to
insult your intelligence, but make sure that the bucket and all other
equipment you are using for your water changes are clean and have NEVER been
used for anything else. You should never use a bucket that you have used to
mop the floor with for example.

4. Salt. why are you putting salt in the water? I don't know a heap about
your species of fish, but I didn't think that guppies and tetras like salt
particularly.. can anyone else add to this?

[Timothy Chu]

Hi James,

One variable that you haven't mentioned--temperature? You're doing a
25% water change...the temperature can drop quite a bit, especially if
the water is straight out of the tap. Might be a good idea to prewarm
the water with a spare heater (or just let it sit overnight @ room
temp if you live in a warm climate). Distilling the water will also
let much of the chlorine dry out.

<tim><

brocpuffs > wrote in message >...
> Old question, new question-er! This is a dupe of a post to
> rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc.
>
>
> I have a 20 gallon tank, cycling just fine, no ammonia or nitrItes,
> hardness and nitrAte on the high side but not really bad. No real
> plants. I have a filter rated for a 20 gallon tank, and change 5
> gallons of water every two weeks more or less.
>
> The tank occupants are:
>
> - four raspboras, old time residents and chubby as they can get;
> - two clown loaches, which have annihilated my snail problem;
> - one neon tetra, I have tried many times to get him some friends,
> they all die practically overnight;
> - about 4 guppies with glorious fancy names such as "Tequila Sunrise"
> and so on. They have HUGE tails that never stop flipping, and
> they're likeable, unafraid, very active and extremely curious.
>
> OK the problem is, when I change the water, I always lose one or two
> fish. I put 1 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon water. and a drop
> (recommended) of chloramine neutralizer. I vacuum the gravel carefully
> so as to not get a lot of crud floating around. I don't mean there's a
> lot of crud, just that I do my best to keep the water clean.
>
> A day or two later, I see a fish that was fine before, staying at the
> surface and hunched over a little in the middle, as if it had a
> stomach cramp. Slowly, over a week or so, it becomes slower and
> weaker, and finally dies. It's totally frustrating watching the little
> guy fade away!
>
> What could be doing this!? Should I use more chloramine neutralizer?
> (Will that stuff hurt the fish if I put it in a tank with live fish in
> it?)
>
> Will chloramine neutralizer be inactivated by salt, since I usually
> put salt in the empty storage jugs, then add a drop (recommended) of
> chloramine neutralizer, then fill 'em up?
>
> Our home is kind of noisy, I have some woodworking power tools and do
> some LOUD chisel cutting.
>
> any suggestions welcome!!
>
> James
>

[david]

I have a filter rated for a 20 gallon tank, and change 5
> gallons of water every two weeks more or less.
>
>

Why? That seems really way too frequent to me. I keep coldwater and trop.
fish and change about 1/3rd of the tank, or less, about once a year,
certainly no more. They live for years (last count the coldies were ten
years and counting). I really do think that changing water frequently is
asking for trouble in a blanced, aerated, filtered aquarium.

FWIW

David

[Jeffrey Boydstun]

"david" > wrote in message
...
> I have a filter rated for a 20 gallon tank, and change 5
> > gallons of water every two weeks more or less.
> >
> >
>
> Why? That seems really way too frequent to me. I keep coldwater and
trop.
> fish and change about 1/3rd of the tank, or less, about once a year,
> certainly no more. They live for years (last count the coldies were ten
> years and counting). I really do think that changing water frequently is
> asking for trouble in a blanced, aerated, filtered aquarium.

Hoo boy... *hands David an asbestos suit* Here, you're going to need this.

Silmelas

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: what the heck's bumping off my fish?
>From: "Jeffrey Boydstun"
>Date: 11/1/2003 3:33 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"david" > wrote in message
...
>> I have a filter rated for a 20 gallon tank, and change 5
>> > gallons of water every two weeks more or less.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Why? That seems really way too frequent to me. I keep coldwater and
>trop.
>> fish and change about 1/3rd of the tank, or less, about once a year,
>> certainly no more. They live for years (last count the coldies were ten
>> years and counting). I really do think that changing water frequently is
>> asking for trouble in a blanced, aerated, filtered aquarium.
>
>Hoo boy... *hands David an asbestos suit* Here, you're going to need this.
>
>Silmelas
>

ROFL!
You're being too kind!

[Geezer From The Freezer]

david wrote:
> Why? That seems really way too frequent to me. I keep coldwater and trop.
> fish and change about 1/3rd of the tank, or less, about once a year,
> certainly no more. They live for years (last count the coldies were ten
> years and counting). I really do think that changing water frequently is
> asking for trouble in a blanced, aerated, filtered aquarium.
>
> FWIW
>
> David

errrr coldwater fish (goldfish) should be water changed every week.
Tropicals i'm not sure about.

[david]

>
> errrr coldwater fish (goldfish) should be water changed every week.


Sorry, disagree 110%. My goldies live long lives in well balanced, crystal
clear water, show no signs of being ill, unhappy or in anyway distressed.
Like I siad they live well past the ten year mark. Why would I change water
weekly when it all seems so good?

I change about 30% of the tank every year, maybe eight months, but certain
ly not sooner. I do of course top up that which is lost to evaporation.

I keep the tank clean, the bottom hoovered and all plants fresh and well
planted. Dead plant matter is removed quickly and the glass is cleaned
frequently.


> Tropicals i'm not sure about.

No, nor me really. Not after reading posts here anyway! But the GF I do
feel I understand after having kept them well for over twenty years.

David. Phew...it's hot!!

[Trygve Lillefosse]

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 14:33:18 +0000 (UTC), "david"
> wrote:
>> errrr coldwater fish (goldfish) should be water changed every week.
>Sorry, disagree 110%. My goldies live long lives in well balanced, crystal
>clear water, show no signs of being ill, unhappy or in anyway distressed.
>Like I siad they live well past the ten year mark. Why would I change water
>weekly when it all seems so good?
>I change about 30% of the tank every year, maybe eight months, but certain
>ly not sooner. I do of course top up that which is lost to evaporation.

110% is not possible.:-)

That is the old way. Strip the water of nutrients, leading to fewer
bacterias and then to a pretty sterile enviroment. Your water is
crystal clear cause it supports wery litle life.


SEE YA !!!

Malawi, The Fisher King aka Trygve Lillefosse
Remove nospam

[Geezer From The Freezer]

david wrote:
>
> >
> > errrr coldwater fish (goldfish) should be water changed every week.
>
> Sorry, disagree 110%. My goldies live long lives in well balanced, crystal
> clear water, show no signs of being ill, unhappy or in anyway distressed.
> Like I siad they live well past the ten year mark. Why would I change water
> weekly when it all seems so good?
>
> I change about 30% of the tank every year, maybe eight months, but certain
> ly not sooner. I do of course top up that which is lost to evaporation.
>
> I keep the tank clean, the bottom hoovered and all plants fresh and well
> planted. Dead plant matter is removed quickly and the glass is cleaned
> frequently.

David, because nitrates will typically rise. There are other non-detectable
nasties too. 8 months without a water change is quite shocking for goldfish!

[RedForeman ©®]

> > errrr coldwater fish (goldfish) should be water changed every week.
True, why? because they are a dirty fish, give off lots of poop, and protein
from slimecoat

> Sorry, disagree 110%. My goldies live long lives in well balanced,
crystal
> clear water, show no signs of being ill, unhappy or in anyway distressed.
> Like I siad they live well past the ten year mark. Why would I change
water
> weekly when it all seems so good?
pollutant buildup, nitrite spike, ammonia spike, and you obviously don't
have plants to soak up this, so I'm guessing your fish are in bad health due
to the build up of stuff..

> I change about 30% of the tank every year, maybe eight months, but certain
> ly not sooner. I do of course top up that which is lost to evaporation.
Thus, adding to the build up of TDS total dissolved solids

> I keep the tank clean, the bottom hoovered and all plants fresh and well
> planted. Dead plant matter is removed quickly and the glass is cleaned
> frequently.

I'm beginning to think.... TROLL....

yep... Troll

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Red,

I think you must be right. David is indeed a troll. 8 months without
water change - fish would be dead well within that time period!

[Donald Kerns]

RedForeman ©® wrote:

>> > errrr coldwater fish (goldfish) should be water changed every week.
> True, why? because they are a dirty fish, give off lots of poop, and
> protein from slimecoat
>
>> Sorry, disagree 110%. My goldies live long lives in well balanced,
> crystal
>> clear water, show no signs of being ill, unhappy or in anyway
>> distressed.
>> Like I siad they live well past the ten year mark. Why would I
>> change
> water
>> weekly when it all seems so good?
> pollutant buildup, nitrite spike, ammonia spike, and you obviously
> don't have plants to soak up this, so I'm guessing your fish are in
> bad health due to the build up of stuff..
>
>> I change about 30% of the tank every year, maybe eight months, but
>> certain
>> ly not sooner. I do of course top up that which is lost to
>> evaporation.
> Thus, adding to the build up of TDS total dissolved solids
>
>> I keep the tank clean, the bottom hoovered and all plants fresh and
>> well
>> planted. Dead plant matter is removed quickly and the glass is
>> cleaned frequently.
>
> I'm beginning to think.... TROLL....
>
> yep... Troll

Hey guys... Lighten up a tad.

Check out the work on low tech, heavily planted aquariums. See Walstad.

She rarely changes the water.

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[RedForeman ©®]

totally aware of that, have it bookmarked, and have a 10g in action to prove
it... but goldfish tank, with 8months between waterchanges???

Only things that keep me from being sure about his troll-ness, what GF, size
of tank... if he said he's got three fancies in a 29g, then I know he's a
troll...

Otherwise, that's a troll....

reason I say that, in the reef group, there's a moron who's 'stalking' one
of the guru's over there, totally disturbing the group, and at a quick
glance, this sounded like one, but looking at the header, it might not be,
and in that case, David, I apologize... time will tell....

--

RedForeman ©®
"Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
...
> RedForeman ©® wrote:
>
> >> > errrr coldwater fish (goldfish) should be water changed every week.
> > True, why? because they are a dirty fish, give off lots of poop, and
> > protein from slimecoat
> >
> >> Sorry, disagree 110%. My goldies live long lives in well balanced,
> > crystal
> >> clear water, show no signs of being ill, unhappy or in anyway
> >> distressed.
> >> Like I siad they live well past the ten year mark. Why would I
> >> change
> > water
> >> weekly when it all seems so good?
> > pollutant buildup, nitrite spike, ammonia spike, and you obviously
> > don't have plants to soak up this, so I'm guessing your fish are in
> > bad health due to the build up of stuff..
> >
> >> I change about 30% of the tank every year, maybe eight months, but
> >> certain
> >> ly not sooner. I do of course top up that which is lost to
> >> evaporation.
> > Thus, adding to the build up of TDS total dissolved solids
> >
> >> I keep the tank clean, the bottom hoovered and all plants fresh and
> >> well
> >> planted. Dead plant matter is removed quickly and the glass is
> >> cleaned frequently.
> >
> > I'm beginning to think.... TROLL....
> >
> > yep... Troll
>
> Hey guys... Lighten up a tad.
>
> Check out the work on low tech, heavily planted aquariums. See Walstad.
>
> She rarely changes the water.
>
> -D
> --
> "When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
> think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Trygve Lillefosse]

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:38:09 +0000, Geezer From The Freezer
> wrote:
>I think you must be right. David is indeed a troll. 8 months without
>water change - fish would be dead well within that time period!

In the aquarium hobby, the mantra used to be "aged water". When tanks
were insured, the aged water was worth more than anything else in the
setup, and was traded along with fish and plants.
Also, goldfish was one of the first pond/aquarium fishes, they were
even kept in wases long before glas was an option.

David is just old fashioned, he thinks that as long as his fish is
surviving, everything is aye okay.

BTW: Wonder how Dave would do in a stable without insulation. Sure it
would be cold in the winter and hot in the summer. Not to talk about
the smell, that awfull smell....
But - he would most probarbly survive and maybe even live to be middle
aged or more.

SEE YA !!!

Malawi, The Fisher King aka Trygve Lillefosse
Remove nospam

[blank]

"Trygve Lillefosse" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 14:33:18 +0000 (UTC), "david"

> 110% is not possible.:-)

Oh? So if I have 10 fish in my tank, and 11 more, what percentage increase
would that be?

[Geezer From The Freezer]

blank wrote:
>
> "Trygve Lillefosse" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 14:33:18 +0000 (UTC), "david"
>
> > 110% is not possible.:-)
>
> Oh? So if I have 10 fish in my tank, and 11 more, what percentage > increase would that be?


You're right of course. But then something like that is limitless.
Things that have limits cannot exceed 100%

[blank]

"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
...

> You're right of course. But then something like that is limitless.
> Things that have limits cannot exceed 100%

Yes, I understand what you mean; I was just having a bit of fun. I agree,
things that have limits cannnot exceed 100%. But the other day, when I was
caught travelling at 210 kph in a 100 kph zone, I had a hell of a time
explaining your argument to the cop. :)

[Geezer From The Freezer]

blank wrote:
>
> "Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > You're right of course. But then something like that is limitless.
> > Things that have limits cannot exceed 100%
>
> Yes, I understand what you mean; I was just having a bit of fun. I agree,
> things that have limits cannnot exceed 100%. But the other day, when I was
> caught travelling at 210 kph in a 100 kph zone, I had a hell of a time
> explaining your argument to the cop. :)

hehehhehhe - damn if only speed restrictions weren't chosen limits huh?