African Dwarf Frog and Eclipse System Three

[Andrew Johnson]

Just curious if anybody can help me out. I bought an Eclipse System
Three (3 gallon) filtered aquarium and an African Dwarf Frog. Right
now I have a plastic plant and a small clay flowerpot for her to hang
out in. I feed her frozen brine shrimp and she spends hours jabbing
her snout into the rocks hunting. Then just relaxes in her cave.

Anyways, I used smooth medium sized (1/4" - 1/2") epoxy coated gravel.
Everything I read about these things says not to use anything sharp
or small for the substrate. They might hurt themseleves or eat eat
it. I also covered the intake with some cheesecloth so an arm or leg
wouldn't get stuck.

I was orginally thinking about adding a betta. I have one right now
in another 1 gallon aquarium but would buy another. But I have heard
that it is possible that they might not get along too well.

If I don't add the betta, would it be too small to add another frog.
I was also considering adding a couple of ghost shrimp. I am assuming
they pose no threat.

Does anybody else here have any other ideas what I could add without
overcrowding the tank?

I also would appreciate any ideas for a live plant.

Thanks

[NetMax]

"Andrew Johnson" > wrote in message
om...
> Just curious if anybody can help me out. I bought an Eclipse System
> Three (3 gallon) filtered aquarium and an African Dwarf Frog. Right
> now I have a plastic plant and a small clay flowerpot for her to hang
> out in. I feed her frozen brine shrimp and she spends hours jabbing
> her snout into the rocks hunting. Then just relaxes in her cave.
>
> Anyways, I used smooth medium sized (1/4" - 1/2") epoxy coated gravel.
> Everything I read about these things says not to use anything sharp
> or small for the substrate. They might hurt themseleves or eat eat
> it. I also covered the intake with some cheesecloth so an arm or leg
> wouldn't get stuck.

Sounds like a lucky, well taken care of ADF :o)

> I was orginally thinking about adding a betta. I have one right now
> in another 1 gallon aquarium but would buy another. But I have heard
> that it is possible that they might not get along too well.

In nature, it would never work. Bettas are carnivores and I hear that
frogs taste like chicken ;~) however, with a domesticated Betta in an
artificial environment (small aquarium), it does work, about 97% of the
time. The Betta's attention is usually in the upper reaches of the tank
(top-feeder) and the ADF parks on surfaces (bottom-feeder), so they are
in different 'worlds'. The Betta quietly hunts things which move, and
the frog moves slowly (when he moves at all), except for the periodic mad
dash for air (which usually startles the Betta away). If you attempt
this, watch the Betta closely to determine if you are in the 97% or the
3%. It usually does not take too long, from a few minutes (to note the
Betta's level of interest) to a day or two (to see if anything begins
developing).

The fact that they share the same diet is very convenient (bloodworms,
brine shrimp, freeze-dried tubifex worms etc).

> If I don't add the betta, would it be too small to add another frog.
> I was also considering adding a couple of ghost shrimp. I am assuming
> they pose no threat.

No problemo on more ADFs. Ghost shrimp would be an experiment. The
adults _might_ be ok (especially if the ADFs are well fed), but any
newborn shrimp would be at risk. It's an inexpensive experiment.
Biggest risk is the disease vector so don't buy your shrimp from a tank
with frogs in it, and quarantine is always a good idea. I don't imagine
that a shrimp could be a threat to an ADF, but I've never tried it
myself. I think I've had Amano shrimp with ADFs and the Amano slowly
disappeared. If you ADFs were actually African Clawed frogs, then your
shrimp would be frog-food eventually.

> Does anybody else here have any other ideas what I could add without
> overcrowding the tank?

Consider adding an Apple snail (middle-feeder, glass cleaner, algae
eater, bottom-feeder), and throw in a sliver of zuchini or an algae wafer
once a week.

> I also would appreciate any ideas for a live plant.

Ideal plants for Bettas/ADF/snails have thick broad leaves. Both the
Betta & the frog can/will park in the leaves and the snail is less likely
to damage a thick leaf. Frogs prefer the leaves in the lower portion of
the tank (ie: Anubius), while Bettas usually hang out closer to the top
(ie: the larger Echinodorous, Pennywort, Moneywort..etc). It would also
be beneficial to have some selective ornaments. Anything with an flat
opening which would only fit the ADF, would give him a secure shelter
from Betta curiousity (a place to sleep in complete peace). Keep in mind
the ADF's eventual size, probably about x2 or x2.5 what they are usually
sold at. A similar shelter for the Betta would be nice too, as they like
to park in a secure area as well, conserving energy and relaxing while
they survey their 'kingdom' ;~). For him, an open cup-shape shelter with
a Lilypad on top (Limnobium laevigatum) would make a nice bachelor pad.

NetMax

> Thanks

[Tedd]

it scares me to think i might be any kind of an authority on ADF's, but because
my wife loves them we have about two dozen now, so,...

[midposted]

"Andrew Johnson" > wrote in message
om...
> Just curious if anybody can help me out. I bought an Eclipse System
> Three (3 gallon) filtered aquarium and an African Dwarf Frog. Right
> now I have a plastic plant and a small clay flowerpot for her to hang
> out in. I feed her frozen brine shrimp and she spends hours jabbing
> her snout into the rocks hunting. Then just relaxes in her cave.
>
> Anyways, I used smooth medium sized (1/4" - 1/2") epoxy coated gravel.
> Everything I read about these things says not to use anything sharp
> or small for the substrate. They might hurt themseleves or eat eat
> it. I also covered the intake with some cheesecloth so an arm or leg
> wouldn't get stuck.

not much to worry about in the way of substrate, they will do well in either,
(we have ADF's in both gravel (fine and med) and in sand). unless they are so
sick and lathargic that they cant even get to the surface for air, you have very
little to worry about in the way of them getting sucked into your filter system.

> I was orginally thinking about adding a betta. I have one right now
> in another 1 gallon aquarium but would buy another. But I have heard
> that it is possible that they might not get along too well.

as NetMax has posted, in nature it'd not work, but in hobby, it works fine. the
likelyhood of the ADF's _allowing_ the betta's to pick on them is fairly low in
my experience. (we have a poor goldfish that the little buggers chase around the
tank durring feeding days to keep him away from their food.)

> If I don't add the betta, would it be too small to add another frog.
> I was also considering adding a couple of ghost shrimp. I am assuming
> they pose no threat.

because ADF's are not as dependent of water quality for survival as fish are
(i.e. the frogs dont "breath" the water) keeping a number of them together is
not much of a problem. from our experience the biggest problem with overcrowding
is making sure everyone gets their fair share of food. we've kept over a dozen
in a 10gal, though 6-8 usually works the best in most takes. for a 3 gallon with
a filteration system i would venture to say that 2 or 3 with a betta would work
fine.

i would avoid the ghost shrimp, (been there, tried that) they'll hunt them down
and pick them appart at the start. after a while, those that survive the initial
onslaught of the first couple days (if any) would generally be okay and have
very little harrasment from either the betta or the ADF's,... then they'd just
die. ghost shrimp seem to be something of a quirk when it comes to being able to
keep them. i've been trying for the past few months to come up with a way of
making it work in a five gallon bucket experiment, i've had one group that
breed, then they all died off. *shrug*. still trying.


> Does anybody else here have any other ideas what I could add without
> overcrowding the tank?

a pair of guppies might help to keep the ADF's fed, ;-)

> I also would appreciate any ideas for a live plant.

sorry, i'm still working on that too, seems the only thing i can keep alive is
frogs and fish. ;-)

hope this helps you some andrew, best of luck. :-)

tedd.

[Kay]

Andrew Johnson wrote:
I have 6 ADF's in an eclipse 12 , I have some apple snails and I tried a
betta, ,but the male betta killed 2 of them. I took him out and he is in
hisz own little tank, However I have a female betta in there now its been
about 6 months and there is no trouble at all.

In a past experence, a few frogs ate all my guppy fry. I should have known!

Kay

[Mike Edwardes]

(Andrew Johnson) wrote in message >...
> Just curious if anybody can help me out. I bought an Eclipse System
> Three (3 gallon) filtered aquarium and an African Dwarf Frog. Right
> now I have a plastic plant and a small clay flowerpot for her to hang
> out in. I feed her frozen brine shrimp and she spends hours jabbing
> her snout into the rocks hunting. Then just relaxes in her cave.
> Anyways, I used smooth medium sized (1/4" - 1/2") epoxy coated gravel.
> Everything I read about these things says not to use anything sharp
> or small for the substrate. They might hurt themseleves or eat eat
> it. I also covered the intake with some cheesecloth so an arm or leg
> wouldn't get stuck.
> I was orginally thinking about adding a betta. I have one right now
> in another 1 gallon aquarium but would buy another. But I have heard
> that it is possible that they might not get along too well.
> If I don't add the betta, would it be too small to add another frog.
> I was also considering adding a couple of ghost shrimp. I am assuming
> they pose no threat.
> Does anybody else here have any other ideas what I could add without
> overcrowding the tank?

The betta is a bad idea - please dont do it. You could add 1 more ADF
(they are quite sociable), but a 5 gallon tank would be better really:
http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/Amphibiary/Hymenochirus.html

> I also would appreciate any ideas for a live plant.

Google for:
Java moss
Java fern
Anubias

Mike.
--
Mike Edwardes Tropicals
http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/Amphibiary

[Gail Futoran]

"Andrew Johnson" > wrote in message
om...
> Just curious if anybody can help me out. I bought an
Eclipse System
> Three (3 gallon) filtered aquarium and an African Dwarf
Frog. Right
> now I have a plastic plant and a small clay flowerpot for
her to hang
> out in. I feed her frozen brine shrimp and she spends
hours jabbing
> her snout into the rocks hunting. Then just relaxes in
her cave.

[snips ahoy]

> I was orginally thinking about adding a betta. I have one
right now
> in another 1 gallon aquarium but would buy another. But I
have heard
> that it is possible that they might not get along too
well.

From what I've read and in my experience Bettas & ADFs get
along fine. I have two ADFs and two female Bettas in a 30
gallon tank along with other fish, and have seen no
problems. I don't know about male Bettas & ADFs.

> I also would appreciate any ideas for a live plant.

Something easy that doesn't get too large. I have a sword &
two dwarf hairgrass in a 5 gallon along with a couple neon
tetras. So far plants & fish are doing fine.

Gail

[TYNK 7]

Snipped~
>Subject: Re: African Dwarf Frog and Eclipse System Three
>From: "Tedd"
>Date: 10/29/2003 7:03 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>because ADF's are not as dependent of water quality for survival as fish are
>(i.e. the frogs dont "breath" the water) keeping a number of them together is
>not much of a problem.

I must disagree here with you.
ADF's *are* dependent on their environment. They absorb everything through
their skin. They also put out a lot more waste than a fish does, and if water
changes are not kept up the ammonia levels will sky rocket.
Just because they can breathe air doesn't mean they aren't dependent on their
environment. = )


> for a 3 gallon with
>a filteration system i would venture to say that 2 or 3 with a betta would
>work
>fin

That's too much of a load for a 3 gallon.
I have an Eclipse 3 and house a male Betta and at the max...2 ADF's.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: African Dwarf Frog and Eclipse System Three
>From: (Mike Edwardes)
>Date: 10/30/2003 12:26 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(Andrew Johnson) wrote in message
>...
>> Just curious if anybody can help me out. I bought an Eclipse System
>> Three (3 gallon) filtered aquarium and an African Dwarf Frog. Right
>> now I have a plastic plant and a small clay flowerpot for her to hang
>> out in. I feed her frozen brine shrimp and she spends hours jabbing
>> her snout into the rocks hunting. Then just relaxes in her cave.
>> Anyways, I used smooth medium sized (1/4" - 1/2") epoxy coated gravel.
>> Everything I read about these things says not to use anything sharp
>> or small for the substrate. They might hurt themseleves or eat eat
>> it. I also covered the intake with some cheesecloth so an arm or leg
>> wouldn't get stuck.
>> I was orginally thinking about adding a betta. I have one right now
>> in another 1 gallon aquarium but would buy another. But I have heard
>> that it is possible that they might not get along too well.
>> If I don't add the betta, would it be too small to add another frog.
>> I was also considering adding a couple of ghost shrimp. I am assuming
>> they pose no threat.
>> Does anybody else here have any other ideas what I could add without
>> overcrowding the tank?
>
>The betta is a bad idea - please dont do it. You could add 1 more ADF
>(they are quite sociable), but a 5 gallon tank would be better really:
>http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/Amphibiary/Hymenochirus.html
>
>> I also would appreciate any ideas for a live plant.
>
>Google for:
>Java moss
>Java fern
>Anubias
>
>Mike.
>--
>Mike Edwardes Tropicals
>http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/Amphibiary

Why Not add a Betta?
It's certainly not a bad idea. They're usually great combos.
I say usually because it all depends onthe individual personality of the Betta.
None are the same, and all have minds of their own..AND know how to use them. =
)
If you had a bad experience with one doesn't mean another will do the same.
That's Bettas! = ) Never dull.

[Tedd]

"TYNK 7" > wrote

> >because ADF's are not as dependent of water quality for survival as fish are
> >(i.e. the frogs dont "breath" the water) keeping a number of them together is
> >not much of a problem.
>
> I must disagree here with you.
> ADF's *are* dependent on their environment. They absorb everything through
> their skin. They also put out a lot more waste than a fish does, and if water
> changes are not kept up the ammonia levels will sky rocket.
> Just because they can breathe air doesn't mean they aren't dependent on their
> environment. = )

1.) note the key words "not as dependent..." signaling comparison, they are
therefore "not as dependent of water quality for survival as fish are". :-)

2.) my 15 gallon that has 8 ADF's and has never had a water change or a
filtration system. (they are also the healthiest of all our ADF's). :-)



> > for a 3 gallon with
> >a filteration system i would venture to say that 2 or 3 with a betta would
> >work
> >fin
>
> That's too much of a load for a 3 gallon.
> I have an Eclipse 3 and house a male Betta and at the max...2 ADF's.
>

YMMV. :-)

[TYNK 7]

Snipped

>Subject: Re: African Dwarf Frog and Eclipse System Three
>From: "Tedd"
>Date: 10/30/2003 4:44 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>

>> >because ADF's are not as dependent of water quality for survival as fish
>are
>> >(i.e. the frogs dont "breath" the water) keeping a number of them together
>is
>> >not much of a problem.

>1.) note the key words "not as dependent..." signaling comparison, they are
>therefore "not as dependent of water quality for survival as fish are". :-)

You're comparing water quality/cleanliness and the Frogs not being as
dependent on ..I quote, "water quality for survival". When in reality, they do.
However, you are correct in saying they don't rely on the O2 content in the
water for their survival, as they breathe surface air.
Those are not the same the same things.


>2.) my 15 gallon that has 8 ADF's and has never had a water change or a
>filtration system. (they are also the healthiest of all our ADF's). :-)

Healthiest?
That's cruel.

[[email protected]]

Tedd > wrote:

> 2.) my 15 gallon that has 8 ADF's and has never had a water change or a
> filtration system. (they are also the healthiest of all our ADF's). :-)

How can this be? Do you have plants? I'm fairly new to this, but this
runs counter to everything I've read...


--
.................................................. ............................

"Arabs tend to confess; it's part of their nature"

- Moshe Etzioni, an Israeli high court justice,
on Israel's use of Torture in interrogation

.................................................. ............................
http://www.memeticcandiru.com

[Tedd]

"TYNK 7" > wrote

> You're comparing water quality/cleanliness and the Frogs not being as
> dependent on ..I quote, "water quality for survival". When in reality, they
do.
> However, you are correct in saying they don't rely on the O2 content in the
> water for their survival, as they breathe surface air.

you're trying to split hairs here. try to remember the original question posted
and look at the relevancy of content versus context. we are talking about 2-3
ADF's in a 3 gallon with a betta. so you'd say 3 is pushing the limit, but two
is okay, which part of the "2-3" did you miss.

> Those are not the same the same things.

neither are frogs and fish.


> >2.) my 15 gallon that has 8 ADF's and has never had a water change or a
> >filtration system. (they are also the healthiest of all our ADF's). :-)
>
> Healthiest?

would you call breeding pairs healthy?

> That's cruel.

well that was indignant. thank you for your self righteous opinion. "people dont
know what they dont know". if you're having a bad day/week thats your business.
if you wish to express that attitude thats your privilege. if you really wish to
debate this down to a biological level we can. but dont presume to know the
conditions or the state of the species in my care, thats just argumentative.

have a nice day tynk.

[Tedd]

> wrote in message
news:pgyob.11397$EY3.9091@edtnps84...
> Tedd > wrote:
>
> > 2.) my 15 gallon that has 8 ADF's and has never had a water change or a
> > filtration system. (they are also the healthiest of all our ADF's). :-)
>
> How can this be? Do you have plants? I'm fairly new to this, but this
> runs counter to everything I've read...
>

there are a number of factors involved, and yes it is mostly counter to
everything you've read and everything i've read as well. one of the first things
to understand is that everything we've read to one extent is designed to keep
people from making major mistakes. things like "20% water change every two
weeks" and "one inch of fish per gallon" are basic rules of thumb to keep
conditions optimal for beginners. there are those that use a 50% WC every two
weeks (or more!) and swear by it, conversely i have 4 angels (technically about
12-15 inches of fish) in a 25 gallon and i consider it to be at its capacity.

as for how i can have 8 ADF's in a 15 gal without changing water and without a
filter, one factor is in the amount of food, they are feed only twice a week,
once with standard frog pellets and once with frozen bloodworms. second, there
was a higher rate of evaporation in summer, (about 2 gallons weekly) that was
replaced when i would do my regularly scheduled water change (something i am
going to rethink now that winter has hit and since tynk got me thinking about it
more) while that doesnt reduce the levels of toxins in the water, it did provide
a supply of fresh(er) water. third, no i dont have plants in it (i should try
though, maybe i can get them to grow in there) but it does have algae and snails
(i've never cleaned the algae and this was originally going to be a puffer tank,
but waiting for the LFS to get a true freshwater version, (i.e. Tetraodon
shoutedeni), got old and now i think the frogs have taken over ;-) ). although
it does not have a filter, it does have a hang on tank "filter", (just no
material inside it) to circulate the water. sand substrate. hood light is always
on. rock 'blocks' stacked up the back of the tank and driftwood that they hide
in/around/under, they are very active at night (which is odd because the light
stays on).

basically, everything "wrong" you can think of to do but one thing, leaving it
alone. nature finds its own balance. do i let my other tanks run like this, no.
would i recommend someone else trying this, probably not, i'm sure there is a
great deal of luck involved (as well as a few other factors i'm not thinking
of).

pH = 7.8
temp varies (no heater)
Ammonia = 0
nitrite = 0
nitrate = 30-40ppm

GH and KH i'd checked long ago and dont remember, the level of DOCs is the big
question, but,... the frogs are fat, active, and breeding. go figure.

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)
>Subject: Re: African Dwarf Frog and Eclipse System Three
>From: "Tedd"
>Date: 10/31/2003 7:10 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>Ammonia = 0
>nitrite = 0

This I don't believe at all.

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)
>Subject: Re: African Dwarf Frog and Eclipse System Three
>From: "Tedd"
>Date: 10/31/2003 5:08 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>

>
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote
>
>> You're comparing water quality/cleanliness and the Frogs not being as
>> dependent on ..I quote, "water quality for survival". When in reality, they
>do.
>> However, you are correct in saying they don't rely on the O2 content in the
>> water for their survival, as they breathe surface air.
>
>you're trying to split hairs here. try to remember the original question
>posted
>and look at the relevancy of content versus context. we are talking about 2-3
>ADF's in a 3 gallon with a betta. so you'd say 3 is pushing the limit, but
>two
>is okay, which part of the "2-3" did you miss.

I didn't forget about the original question. It was answered, and like so many
other threads, this one has evolved.
I didn't "miss" anything about your recommendation of housing one male Betta
and 2-3 African Dwarf Frogs together in a 3 gallon Eclipse. I did explain that
having 3 (!) ADF's and a male Betta in it would be too much of a load.
What part of that did you miss?


>> Those are not the same the same things.
>
>neither are frogs and fish.

Well, when you are considering Stocking levels, all creatures that are making
waste products in the tank must be taken into consideration.
So, in this case, their waste is compared the same way.
>
>have a nice day tynk.

Thanks! I did.

[TYNK 7]

>
>> >2.) my 15 gallon that has 8 ADF's and has never had a water change or a
>> >filtration system. (they are also the healthiest of all our ADF's). :-)

>> Healthiest?

>> That's cruel.

>well that was indignant. thank you for your self righteous opinion.

Indignant, self rightous?
Nah, I just understand what these creatures require to thrive.

[Tedd]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> (snipped)


you'd say 2 ADF's in a 3 gallon,...
a ration of 2:3
thats equal to a ratio of 10:15

i have 8:15 so i come in under your recommendation...

*plonk*

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: African Dwarf Frog and Eclipse System Three
>From: "Tedd"
>Date: 11/2/2003 11:57 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>> (snipped)
>
>
>you'd say 2 ADF's in a 3 gallon,...
>a ration of 2:3
>thats equal to a ratio of 10:15
>
>i have 8:15 so i come in under your recommendation...
>
>*plonk*
>

Yes. However, that would be with regular tank cleanings, something which you
have stated you do *not* do.
So again, it's not a good situation for those Frogs.

[[email protected]]

Tedd > wrote:

> *plonk*

Relax, dude.



--
.................................................. ............................

"What sort of truth is it that needs protection?"

-Auberon Waugh, The London Daily Telegraph

.................................................. ............................
http://www.memeticcandiru.com

[Tedd]

> wrote in message
news:tZvpb.114987$EO3.19770@clgrps13...
> Tedd > wrote:
>
> > *plonk*
>
> Relax, dude.
>

i granted the courtesies, all the little :-) 's, all the "YMMV" and got quite
the rude responses back. at least you asked the details without assumptions or
accusations. the guy can sit in the killfile for all i care. i'd taken excellent
advice from him before, and shared advice and experiences here, which is what
the group was all about. not about overly righteous "you are absolutely wrong
and i am right" insults when he is not here to check it for himself, (he's
already made his judgement.)

thanks for your patience, and for having the courtesy to ask, and being
non-judgmental.

my apologies to the rest of the group for losing my patience. please do not let
my actions affect your feelings or opinions about the groups.

tedd.

[TYNK 7]

Snipped

>Subject: OT was: Re: African Dwarf Frog and Eclipse System Three
>From: "Tedd"
>Date: 11/3/2003 6:49 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>

>Subject: OT was: Re: African Dwarf Frog and Eclipse System Three
>From: "Tedd"
>Date: 11/3/2003 6:49 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
> wrote in message
>news:tZvpb.114987$EO3.19770@clgrps13...
>> Tedd > wrote:
>>
>> > *plonk*
>>
>> Relax, dude.
>>
>
>i granted the courtesies, all the little :-) 's, all the "YMMV" and got quite
>the rude responses back. at least you asked the details without assumptions
>or
>accusations. the guy can sit in the killfile for all i care. i'd taken
>excellent
>advice from him before, and shared advice and experiences here, which is what
>the group was all about. not about overly righteous "you are absolutely wrong
>and i am right" insults when he is not here to check it for himself, (he's
>already made his judgement.)

He?
Insults?
Absolutely wrong?
First of all, I'm a lady, not a guy.
In my first reply to your recommendations for African Dwarf Frogs, which I
disagreed with most of it, I believed I explained it well enough.
You got bent out of shape because I disagreed with you.
Instead of learning about the proper care of these creatures you went off on
me.
I URGE you to research ADF's.
Please, do it for them.

[NetMax]

"TYNK 7" wrote
>"Tedd" wrote
> > "TYNK 7" wrote
> > >"Tedd" wrote
> > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
> > > > >"Tedd" wrote
> > > > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
> > > > > > >"Tedd" wrote
> > > > > > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
> > > > > > > > >"Tedd" wrote

This concludes this month's demonstration of how theory & anecdotal
evidence influences both subjective & objective opinions, leaving only
one common denominator, ... newsgroup participants are generally here to
increase their knowledge, and improve the care of their fish (and frogs).

I took this subject to a higher power, but the resulting committees
strayed from the original question.

On filtration: committee chaired by Betta splendens (SFF).
General consensus that filtration techniques continue improving and are
more than adequate. A reminder was issued to the humans that fish cannot
be held responsible for the ever increasing amounts of money being spent
for filtration. Fishes in their natural habitats are perfectly happy in
water containing various types of floating debris, and this
pre-occupation with crystal clear water is a human one.

On food: committee chaired by Astronotus ocellatus (Oscar).
While the quality and diversity of food products continues to rise, there
is no change from previous surveys that more can be used. The resulting
water contamination, increased costs, and higher filtration maintenance
are not our problems.

On lighting (this years hottest topic): committee chaired by Pangio
Kuhlii.
The current trend of increasing the lighting levels for plant growth is
literally causing us headaches. If actions are not taken to provide
adequate shelter from this onslaught, we will be going underground. Many
members such as the Characidae family expressed strong support, but had
reservations regarding the effectiveness of the threat being proposed.

On substrates: committee headed by Corydorous Aeneus (Bronze cat).
Various new substrates are mostly improvements over coarse gravel,
consensus being small and smoother is better, with sand being ideal (the
splinter group pushing for natural earth (mud) has dwindled in size, as
subsequent tank-bred generations fail to recognize this as a natural
material).

On space: committee chaired by Leporinus fasciatus
Recent technological advances in maintaining water quality, have severely
added to the space crunch. A sub-committee has been formed to supply the
humans with a UUN (United Underwater Nations) resolution to replace the
1" /gallon guideline with a scale based on fish length x movement index
by
family (previous finding suggested greater fish loads were possible than
current convention, and they were quickly suppressed by the committee on
food).

On habitat: committee chaired by Synodontis nigriventris (upside down
cat).
Report will be delayed till next year as the new chairfish was still
getting his bearings.

On dyed & hybrid fish: committee chaired by Puntius tetrazona (Tiger
barb).
There was particularly venomous criticism and condemnation on this
expanding phenomena. Curiously the younger tetrazonas though it was
'kewl', and the
Cichlidaes had no comment on the Parrotfish (though significant
snickering could be heard in the background).

On heating: committee chaired by Symphysodon discus.
There has been an alarming trend to reduce temperature to save costs. We
want more. The Lepomis family (sunfish) were later seen, taking the
chairfish away.

On habitat: committee chaired by Carnegiella marthae (Hatchetfish).
There exists a significant human population who still find it necessary
to be sticking their hands in on a regular basis, purportedly for
cleaning decorating, planting, etc. We are in unanimous agreement that
this interference must be significantly reduced immediately. A
dissenting voice came from Serrasalmus family (piranha) which found all
that activity rather stimulating.

I have to stop here as my new medication is making me sleepy. ;~)
'it's all good'
NetMax

> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Jeff Pratt]

NetMax wrote:

> "TYNK 7" wrote
>>"Tedd" wrote
>> > "TYNK 7" wrote
>> > >"Tedd" wrote
>> > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
>> > > > >"Tedd" wrote
>> > > > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
>> > > > > > >"Tedd" wrote
>> > > > > > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
>> > > > > > > > >"Tedd" wrote
>
> This concludes this month's demonstration of how theory & anecdotal
> evidence influences both subjective & objective opinions, leaving only
> one common denominator, ... newsgroup participants are generally here to
> increase their knowledge, and improve the care of their fish (and frogs).
>
> I took this subject to a higher power, but the resulting committees
> strayed from the original question.

<SNIP Symposia>

> I have to stop here as my new medication is making me sleepy. ;~)
> 'it's all good'
> NetMax
>

<Applause>

Maybe we should enter NetMax for an ig nobel
http://www.improb.com/ig/ig-top.html

Jeff

[NetMax]

"Jeff Pratt" > wrote in message
news:ALRpb.9347$6A4.1867@edtnps84...
> NetMax wrote:
>
> > "TYNK 7" wrote
> >>"Tedd" wrote
> >> > "TYNK 7" wrote
> >> > >"Tedd" wrote
> >> > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
> >> > > > >"Tedd" wrote
> >> > > > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
> >> > > > > > >"Tedd" wrote
> >> > > > > > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
> >> > > > > > > > >"Tedd" wrote
> >
> > This concludes this month's demonstration of how theory & anecdotal
> > evidence influences both subjective & objective opinions, leaving
only
> > one common denominator, ... newsgroup participants are generally here
to
> > increase their knowledge, and improve the care of their fish (and
frogs).
> >
> > I took this subject to a higher power, but the resulting committees
> > strayed from the original question.
>
> <SNIP Symposia>
>
> > I have to stop here as my new medication is making me sleepy. ;~)
> > 'it's all good'
> > NetMax
> >
>
> <Applause>
>
> Maybe we should enter NetMax for an ig nobel
> http://www.improb.com/ig/ig-top.html
>
> Jeff

*blush... bows*
under what category? ... interdisciplinary research... literature...
psychology... terminal silliness (Donald gets that one)

I guess I'd have to write something more formative, how about?...
"An inside look at what tropical fish really think about people" - a
compilation of interspecies interviews painstaking done over the last 30
years
.... act now, and we'll include a section on what fish think about your
pets too

"I'll never be able to look at aquarium water the same way" ..New York
Times
"Is this for real?" ..Toronto Star
"At least he's not American" ..Boston Herald

Book Two
"Bactericidae, we are not all the same" - a global typecasting revealed

*sound of feet being dragged away from computer desk...* ;~)
NetMax

[Tedd]

"NetMax"
> "Jeff Pratt"
> > NetMax wrote:
> > > "TYNK 7" wrote
> > >>"Tedd" wrote
> > >> > "TYNK 7" wrote
> > >> > >"Tedd" wrote
> > >> > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
> > >> > > > >"Tedd" wrote
> > >> > > > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
> > >> > > > > > >"Tedd" wrote
> > >> > > > > > > > "TYNK 7" wrote
> > >> > > > > > > > >"Tedd" wrote
> > >
> >
> > <Applause>
> >
> > Maybe we should enter NetMax for an ig nobel
> > http://www.improb.com/ig/ig-top.html
> >
> > Jeff
>
> *blush... bows*
> under what category? ... interdisciplinary research... literature...
> psychology... terminal silliness (Donald gets that one)

i was gonna give him five minutes in the penalty box for (reality) checking and
(tension) breaking. :-P~

:-)

[Donald Kerns]

NetMax wrote:

>> Maybe we should enter NetMax for an ig nobel
>> http://www.improb.com/ig/ig-top.html
>
> *blush... bows*
> under what category? ... interdisciplinary research... literature...
> psychology... terminal silliness (Donald gets that one)

[Monty Python accent]
"No I don't."
[Bonk]
"Whaaaa!"

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Toni]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> I have to stop here as my new medication is making me sleepy. ;~)


I want some of what you're taking.


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/aquarium.htm

[[email protected]]

Tedd > wrote:

> thanks for your patience, and for having the courtesy to ask, and being
> non-judgmental.

Thank you, Tedd. I think the other poster is frustrated at the aparrent lack
of care for your fish, and I must confess, I feel a bit of the same. Your
froggies may be persisting, but that doesn't mean they are thriving.

Case in point: I've had a Kuhli for about 6 years, during which he was
horribly neglected. I fed him once a week, didn't regulate the temperature,
and assumed it was ok because he lived. After some recent research, I
found out that my tank is far too cold for him, and that he was hungry and
lonely. MAN, DID I FEEL LIKE AN ASS. I've taken the time to learn what
conditions are optimal for him, and *SLOWLY* adjusted towards those
conditions.

Now he's a crazy happy fish, swimming like crazy, gettin' fat, and hanging
out with his new buddies. This is much better for him than simply
"surviving", which is what I suspect your froggies are doing.



--
.................................................. ............................

"We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by
procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any
employment in our own country expropriation and the removal of the poor
must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly"

- Theodore Herzl, Ideological father of Israel,
(The Complete Diaries of Theodore Herzl, Vol I, 1895)

.................................................. ............................
http://www.memeticcandiru.com