Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate

[NSP]

Hi all!

Welcome to my comedey of errors.

I'll tell you the situation briefly first, and then a more detailed
version after.

1. New tank setup - less than a week old.

- 23 US Gallons
- Aquaclear 200
- 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear
- PH 7.0 - 7.5
- 79 - 80 degrees F

2. Fish

1 Placostamus
1 Pregnant Female Guppy
1 Pregnant Female Platy
1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy
1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy
1 Male Platy
2 healthy Gouramis
2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is
ich!)
1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3
days old)
2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called)
2 Zebra Daneos
1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong)
1 Female swordtail

3. Current losses

1 Male swordtail
1 Female Guppy

What happened when the fish died :

Both fish became lathargic, hovered at the surface of the water, and
DIED.

My poor wife has become the aquatic grim reaper as she has been
putting the corpses in the freezer to bring back to the pet shop for
warranty (lucky us!).

The sick male guppy listed above is hanging around at the surface of
the water and his fancy tail is torn to shreds.

QUESTION:

I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper
bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra,
I'm not sure if I should medicate or not.

As we don't have a hospital tank, I'm concerned that medications will
hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process.

The other fish in the tank seem to be ok.

Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about
temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling
process?

If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is
poured in the tank? Will letting the water stand overnight equally
remove chlorine?

Here is a little more detail as to what happened:

1. Got a 15 gallon tank.

Pet shop thought it was a 20 gallon tank and advertised it as such. I
bought too many fish for the size of the tank.

It was in this tank that the 2 fish died.

I tried treating the fish with Furon-2 for ich (the Neon Tetras I
mean). I could only give a 2 day dosage though because I had to swap
the tanks. I did not want to put this stuff in the new tank.

2. I got a 23 gallon tank.

I started everything fresh without medicine. I put the cycle and
chlorine clearing chemicals (Hagen). All the filter materials were
replaced with new ones.

I transfered the fish.

The Platy gave us a baby bundle which is in the breeding trap and is
growing fairly quickly.

The male guppy is going through a slow, lingering death.

Overall, I think the fish are doing better in the bigger tank - but
still...

Any ideas?


Neil

[Paulo]

Maybe too late as an advise....but I think you did not do your homework
before getting your package...I think even for a 20 gal tank, you got way
too many fishes...particualry teh tank was not even cycled!

IMHO, let the tank cycle and set up....do your weekly water changes....

Also you are mixing agressive fishes qith community ones...and why 2 neons?
I am sure they feel miserable.....BUt again...take your time now...check how
your tank is doing....and dont add more fishes...at least for the next three
months! Then check what you hae left, and how can you balance the rest...

Good luck

--
Paulo
"NSP" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all!
>
> Welcome to my comedey of errors.
>
> I'll tell you the situation briefly first, and then a more detailed
> version after.
>
> 1. New tank setup - less than a week old.
>
> - 23 US Gallons
> - Aquaclear 200
> - 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear
> - PH 7.0 - 7.5
> - 79 - 80 degrees F
>
> 2. Fish
>
> 1 Placostamus
> 1 Pregnant Female Guppy
> 1 Pregnant Female Platy
> 1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy
> 1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy
> 1 Male Platy
> 2 healthy Gouramis
> 2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is
> ich!)
> 1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3
> days old)
> 2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called)
> 2 Zebra Daneos
> 1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong)
> 1 Female swordtail
>
> 3. Current losses
>
> 1 Male swordtail
> 1 Female Guppy
>
> What happened when the fish died :
>
> Both fish became lathargic, hovered at the surface of the water, and
> DIED.
>
> My poor wife has become the aquatic grim reaper as she has been
> putting the corpses in the freezer to bring back to the pet shop for
> warranty (lucky us!).
>
> The sick male guppy listed above is hanging around at the surface of
> the water and his fancy tail is torn to shreds.
>
> QUESTION:
>
> I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper
> bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra,
> I'm not sure if I should medicate or not.
>
> As we don't have a hospital tank, I'm concerned that medications will
> hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process.
>
> The other fish in the tank seem to be ok.
>
> Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about
> temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling
> process?
>
> If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is
> poured in the tank? Will letting the water stand overnight equally
> remove chlorine?
>
> Here is a little more detail as to what happened:
>
> 1. Got a 15 gallon tank.
>
> Pet shop thought it was a 20 gallon tank and advertised it as such. I
> bought too many fish for the size of the tank.
>
> It was in this tank that the 2 fish died.
>
> I tried treating the fish with Furon-2 for ich (the Neon Tetras I
> mean). I could only give a 2 day dosage though because I had to swap
> the tanks. I did not want to put this stuff in the new tank.
>
> 2. I got a 23 gallon tank.
>
> I started everything fresh without medicine. I put the cycle and
> chlorine clearing chemicals (Hagen). All the filter materials were
> replaced with new ones.
>
> I transfered the fish.
>
> The Platy gave us a baby bundle which is in the breeding trap and is
> growing fairly quickly.
>
> The male guppy is going through a slow, lingering death.
>
> Overall, I think the fish are doing better in the bigger tank - but
> still...
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> Neil

[Laura]

Hi
I am not a skilled as some of the people here but I thought I would reply
and the other more skilled people will reply later on.

First off that is far too many fish for a tank that has been set up only a
week. When you set up a new tank it's best to have it running at least a
few days before you add fish, and when you add fish you should start with
only 3 really hardy fish and then wait at least a week before adding new
ones, the longer the better. In reality you should add 3 of the hardy fish
and test the water to see if the nitrate, nitrite and ammonim go up and then
go back down again, usually takes a few weeks, or you could do a fishless
cycle which is usually much better, I'm not sure how they work though as
I've always used fish to cycle my tank.

I would bring a sample of the water into the pet store and ask to have it
tested, most if not all places will test for free. Also if you have bought
the fish recently most pet stores will take them back so you can do this
properly as the way your tank is now most of the fish are likely to die
since it hasn't cycled properly.

Also even when the tank is fully cycled that might be too much fish for the
tank if you follow the 1 inch per gallon rule, since the guppies and platy's
get around 3 inch's and you have 5 of the guppies and platy's total
including the sick one. So that's 15 gallons of fish right there, also they
are that hardy of a fish, the pleco only gets around 16 inch's depending
what kind it is so it will probably out grow your tank. The gouramis are
pretty hardy so they might survive the cycling process but it depends on
what kins you get they range in size from 2 inchs to 12, you probably got
the dwarf gourami's. Neon tetra's are probably one of the least hardy fish
that I know of personally since they seem to be the fish most often returned
dead, they get 2 inch's each roughly so now you are up to 23 inch's roughly
not including the pleco so 23 plus gallons of water. Then i'm not sure on
the hardiness of the serpae tetra's but i think they get around 2-3 inchs
each so that's an additional 5 gallons, the zebra's are really hardy fish
and most likely the ones to survive the cycling and they get 2-3 inch's so
that's an additional 5 gallons. The clown loach get's around 11 inchs if
i'm not mistaken so that's roughly 11 gallons so that's 44 gallons total.
Then the sword get's at least 5 inch each so that totals around 50 inch of
fish total not including the pleco.

I personally think you should return all the fish except the zebra's, or
maybe them also and find yourself a new store to get fish from because the
one you are going to now clearly doesn't have a clue, if they ask the right
questions. I know where I work we have to ask how long the tank has been
set up, how many fish, how big and what kind of fish.

Also how long was the 15 gallon set up for, and did you use the gravel from
that tank. If the tanks was set up a while and you used the gravel and
moved it straight from the one tank to the other you may be ok, but if it
wasn't set up long then I would really recommend returning the fish if
possible and starting from the beginning.

You can search on the net for info on setting up new tanks also.



"NSP" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all!
>
> Welcome to my comedey of errors.
>
> I'll tell you the situation briefly first, and then a more detailed
> version after.
>
> 1. New tank setup - less than a week old.
>
> - 23 US Gallons
> - Aquaclear 200
> - 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear
> - PH 7.0 - 7.5
> - 79 - 80 degrees F
>
> 2. Fish
>
> 1 Placostamus
> 1 Pregnant Female Guppy
> 1 Pregnant Female Platy
> 1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy
> 1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy
> 1 Male Platy
> 2 healthy Gouramis
> 2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is
> ich!)
> 1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3
> days old)
> 2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called)
> 2 Zebra Daneos
> 1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong)
> 1 Female swordtail
>
> 3. Current losses
>
> 1 Male swordtail
> 1 Female Guppy
>
> What happened when the fish died :
>
> Both fish became lathargic, hovered at the surface of the water, and
> DIED.
>
> My poor wife has become the aquatic grim reaper as she has been
> putting the corpses in the freezer to bring back to the pet shop for
> warranty (lucky us!).
>
> The sick male guppy listed above is hanging around at the surface of
> the water and his fancy tail is torn to shreds.
>
> QUESTION:
>
> I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper
> bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra,
> I'm not sure if I should medicate or not.
>
> As we don't have a hospital tank, I'm concerned that medications will
> hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process.
>
> The other fish in the tank seem to be ok.
>
> Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about
> temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling
> process?
>
> If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is
> poured in the tank? Will letting the water stand overnight equally
> remove chlorine?
>
> Here is a little more detail as to what happened:
>
> 1. Got a 15 gallon tank.
>
> Pet shop thought it was a 20 gallon tank and advertised it as such. I
> bought too many fish for the size of the tank.
>
> It was in this tank that the 2 fish died.
>
> I tried treating the fish with Furon-2 for ich (the Neon Tetras I
> mean). I could only give a 2 day dosage though because I had to swap
> the tanks. I did not want to put this stuff in the new tank.
>
> 2. I got a 23 gallon tank.
>
> I started everything fresh without medicine. I put the cycle and
> chlorine clearing chemicals (Hagen). All the filter materials were
> replaced with new ones.
>
> I transfered the fish.
>
> The Platy gave us a baby bundle which is in the breeding trap and is
> growing fairly quickly.
>
> The male guppy is going through a slow, lingering death.
>
> Overall, I think the fish are doing better in the bigger tank - but
> still...
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> Neil

[Cris]

On 12 Nov 2003 12:40:42 -0800, (NSP) wrote:

>1. New tank setup - less than a week old.
>
>- 23 US Gallons
>- Aquaclear 200
>- 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear
>- PH 7.0 - 7.5
>- 79 - 80 degrees F
>
>2. Fish
>
>1 Placostamus
>1 Pregnant Female Guppy
>1 Pregnant Female Platy
>1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy
>1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy
>1 Male Platy
>2 healthy Gouramis
>2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is
>ich!)
>1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3
>days old)
>2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called)
>2 Zebra Daneos
>1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong)
>1 Female swordtail

Thats way way way too many fish for an uncycled tank. Unless you have
a large tank (which you don't), it's best to start very slowly with
only a few small fish. The store should not have sold you all those
fish at once knowing you were just starting a new tank!
Tetras are schooling fish and should be in groups of at least 7 to 10.
Clown Loaches should be in groups of at least 3 - preferably more.
You don't mention what kind of Gouramis, but they can be aggressive.
IMHO Plecos should not be put in uncycled tanks at all because they
are very messy fish and add a lot to the bio load.


>3. Current losses
>
>1 Male swordtail
>1 Female Guppy
>
>What happened when the fish died :
>
>Both fish became lathargic, hovered at the surface of the water, and
>DIED.

Have you tested for ammonia and nitrites? That is probably the cause
of the illnesses.

>
>QUESTION:
>
>I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper
>bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra,
>I'm not sure if I should medicate or not.

If the fish has only 1 spot of ich, I would wait. The other fish will
either die quickly or recover when the tank cycles. Avoid medicating
an uncycled tank because it will just stress the fish more and is more
likely to kill them.

>As we don't have a hospital tank, I'm concerned that medications will
>hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process.

Walmart has 10 gallon tanks for only $9.00. You can get a very cheap
filter for a hospital tank just to aerate and mechanically/chemically
filter.


>Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about
>temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling
>process?

You need to do water changes. If you don't already have test kits for
ammonia and nitrites you should get them. Test the water daily and
do water changes to control these levels. Water changes will only
harm the cycling process if you don't declorinate. Otherwise they
only help. Yes, you do need to be concerned with temperature changes
of more than 2-3 degrees. The more temp change there is, the more
stress there is on the fish.

>If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is
>poured in the tank?

It would be better to add the declorinator before you add the tap
water.

>Will letting the water stand overnight equally remove chlorine?

I think that depends how much chlorine your tap water contains. Also,
sometimes water companies use Chloramines which takes more like a week
to evaporate.

>I tried treating the fish with Furon-2 for ich (the Neon Tetras I
>mean). I could only give a 2 day dosage though because I had to swap
>the tanks. I did not want to put this stuff in the new tank.

Ich needs to be treated for it's full life cycle which is 2 weeks.
See http://www.thekrib.com/Diseases/ich.html

There is lots of good info on all these subjects at The Krib.

Good luck!
Cris

[Tedd]

[mid-posted/alot of snippage/summary at end]

"NSP" wrote
> Hi all!
> Welcome to my comedey of errors.

hello neil, welcome to the hobby of fish keeping. a wonderful source of parodies
for any comedy of errors. ;-)

> 1. New tank setup - less than a week old.
> - 23 US Gallons
> - Aquaclear 200
> - 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear
> - PH 7.0 - 7.5
> - 79 - 80 degrees F
>
> 2. Fish
> 1 Placostamus

i'd return this guy. if you really want one you can pick one up again at a later
date, but as for now, he's probably not too happy in an uncycled tank.

> 1 Pregnant Female Guppy
> 1 Pregnant Female Platy
> 1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy
> 1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy
> 1 Male Platy
> 2 healthy Gouramis

i'd return these guys also. unless they are the dwarf type, they (like the
pleco) will quickly get to large.

> 2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is
> ich!)
> 1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3
> days old)
> 2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called)
> 2 Zebra Daneos
> 1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong)

return this guy too. the pleco, gouramis and this guy are generally great fish
for people who 1.) have an established set up, 2.) have a large enough set up,
and 3.) have a great deal of experience.

> 1 Female swordtail
>
> 3. Current losses
> My poor wife has become the aquatic grim reaper as she has been
> putting the corpses in the freezer to bring back to the pet shop for
> warranty (lucky us!).

dont replace the fish that have died! get an in-store credit. you want to do
this for two reasons;
1.) the new fish you are bringing in could just be adding new "illnesses" to
your already unstable tank.
2.) you're going to lose more fish anyway. slow the process by letting the
population in yur tank drop, fewer fish at this point have a better chance of
surviving than having alot of fish does.

> QUESTION:
>
> I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper
> bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra,
> I'm not sure if I should medicate or not.

no. this is of course my opinion, but without the tank having cycled, adding
medications is only going to complicate things even more. you really need to let
the cycle happen.

> As we don't have a hospital tank,

i'm assuming this means you no longer have the 15 gallon.

> I'm concerned that medications will
> hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process.

quite right. not so much that the medications could actually "hurt" the young,
it is more of a "stabilization" issue, one of the things i've learned is to
"leave it alone" in a sense. the more you mess with something with added
chemicals and such, the more difficult you make it for the tank to find it's own
ballence of cycle.

> The other fish in the tank seem to be ok.

they probably wont be for long. be prepaired, you're going to lose more fish.

> Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about
> temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling
> process?

yes. yes. and no.

yes. it is very important at this stage to do lots of water changes, i
personally at this point would be doing a 10% per day water change. it will keep
the levels of toxins down to a more bearable level.

yes. it is important to keep the temperature stable, there are many different
ways and opinions on this one, one way is to use "touch" to adjust your tap
water (mix of hot and cold) to match your tank temperature, another way is get a
digital thermometer and match the temperatures exactly using the same hot/cold
method above, another is to let your water sit and adjust to room temperature
before adding.

no. water changes will not harm your cycling process. but it will make your fish
alot happier and healthier through the stress of it. (remember though, you're
still going to lose some more).


> If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is
> poured in the tank? Will letting the water stand overnight equally
> remove chlorine?

make sure you are using a dechlorinizer for chlorine/chloromine otherwise you
will kill your cycle and some fish as well. most people i believe add it to
their water change bucket as it is filling. although i have seen people add it
directly to the tank ad they are adding the new water. because it works
instantly (dont ask me how because i dont know, i take it on faith that it does.
;-) ) you sould be safe in either case. (someone disagree with me quick if i am
wrong on this one!). letting the water sit overnight will not be effective if
your water company uses chloromine instead of chlorine. either find out exacly
what your company uses or just dont take the chance, use the dechlorinizer.

> Here is a little more detail as to what happened:

> I started everything fresh without medicine. I put the cycle and
> chlorine clearing chemicals (Hagen). All the filter materials were
> replaced with new ones.

dont do that again if you can help it. the less stuff you are changing around
the better. including filter material (actually, especially(!!) filter
material).

> Any ideas?

stability. the key word to fish keeping from my perspective. you're tank will
create it's own level of stability if you let it. the only thing you need to
change at this point is the water, 10% every day till it begins to stabilize,
check your ammonia and nitrites every day, you may need to increase the water
changes to keep the toxins down to a safe level.
do not treat with medications, in my opinion this would only complicate things
even more. you may raise the temperature to about 80-82 degree to help flush the
ick out. add some aquarium salt also to help get the ick under control, it is
debatable as to just how much this helps a tank or the fish, but in my opinion,
it cant hurt and it makes me feel better because i am adding something. ;-)
getting rid of the pleco, gouramis and loach right now is the best thing for
them, other wise they are just going to suffer, make your other fish suffer
because of the increased demands on the water, and probably die themselves
anyway. replace them after you have an established tank and are a bit more
experience with these types of fish (i.e. know more about the fish themselves
and the environments they require).
of the remaining fish you have, (this is going to sound cold) be prepared to
have most of them die, expect it. do not over feed them! if nothing else,
underfeed them, i would personally stop all feedings on a daily basis, feed
twice a day every other day and only what they will eat in two minutes, no more.
if they act hungry (which they will) consider this, they're getting more food
now than they were at the pet store. ;-)

a worst case scenario is that everything is going to die within a week. if this
happens then you can start over again with a bit more experience and succeed. i
have never heard of anyone failing to cycle a tank on the second time around but
there are lots (myself included) that failed it the first time around.

there are lots of people here willing and wanting to help, just keep us informed
on how it's going and we'll keep throwing out our opinions and advice. :-)

best of luck to you neil,
tedd.

p.s. one last piece of advice, there is no such thing as a stupid question here.

[Donald Kerns]

Tedd wrote:

> p.s. one last piece of advice, there is no such thing as a stupid
> question here.

Although there are some that will draw the ire of our less tolerant
co-posters.

Set skin thickness to +3.

-D

P.S. Doing your homework also helps... Try here...
http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Cris]

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:07 -0700, "Tedd"
> wrote:

>you may raise the temperature to about 80-82 degree to help flush the
>ick out.

I agree with Tedd on everything but this. Raising the temp will not
kill the ich - only speed-up its life cycle, making the fish even more
ill. It is sometimes recommended to raise the temp while using ich
medication to kill off each generation more quickly, but I think it's
a bad idea when you're not using medication.
Cris

[Donald Kerns]

Cris wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:07 -0700, "Tedd"
> > wrote:
>
>>you may raise the temperature to about 80-82 degree to help flush the
>>ick out.
>
> I agree with Tedd on everything but this. Raising the temp will not
> kill the ich - only speed-up its life cycle, making the fish even more
> ill. It is sometimes recommended to raise the temp while using ich
> medication to kill off each generation more quickly, but I think it's
> a bad idea when you're not using medication.
> Cris

If you want to kill it, you're looking at 85 deg F, but there is a
recorded case of Ich killing at 93 deg F.

See my recent post on r.a.f.goldfish quoting the paper from the
Aquaculture Center...

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Tedd Jacobs]

"Donald Kerns" wrote

> See my recent post on r.a.f.goldfish quoting the paper from the
> Aquaculture Center...

donald, could you repost that here, i dont have the r.a.f.g. :-(

tedd. (deprived but alive)

[Cris]

Thanks for the info.
You quoted, "TYPICALLY, ich cannot reproduce properly at water
temperatures above 85deg F." Which is good, but it's still a gamble
because the already suffering fish won't like temps that high. If the
problem was only Ich, I would try it, but with high levels of ammonia
and/or nitrite I think I'd skip that.

Anyway, if he gets the water back to healthy levels the fishes' immune
systems will improve and hopefully no treatment will be needed. If
the Ich condition gets bad before then treatment will be needed.

He really ought to get a hospital tank so that he can address more
than one problem at once.

....Just my opinion.
Cris


On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:49:06 -0800, Donald Kerns
> wrote:

>Cris wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:07 -0700, "Tedd"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>you may raise the temperature to about 80-82 degree to help flush the
>>>ick out.
>>
>> I agree with Tedd on everything but this. Raising the temp will not
>> kill the ich - only speed-up its life cycle, making the fish even more
>> ill. It is sometimes recommended to raise the temp while using ich
>> medication to kill off each generation more quickly, but I think it's
>> a bad idea when you're not using medication.
>> Cris
>
>If you want to kill it, you're looking at 85 deg F, but there is a
>recorded case of Ich killing at 93 deg F.
>
>See my recent post on r.a.f.goldfish quoting the paper from the
>Aquaculture Center...
>
>-D

[coelacanth]

I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, so I will suggest
you try to get some Biospira. This stuff is expensive, but
invaluable in this type of situation. You may have to call
several stores before you find it, but it will surely help.

-coelacanth

"NSP" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all!
>
> Welcome to my comedey of errors.
>
> I'll tell you the situation briefly first, and then a more detailed
> version after.
>
> 1. New tank setup - less than a week old.
>
> - 23 US Gallons
> - Aquaclear 200
> - 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear
> - PH 7.0 - 7.5
> - 79 - 80 degrees F
>
> 2. Fish
>
> 1 Placostamus
> 1 Pregnant Female Guppy
> 1 Pregnant Female Platy
> 1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy
> 1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy
> 1 Male Platy
> 2 healthy Gouramis
> 2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is
> ich!)
> 1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3
> days old)
> 2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called)
> 2 Zebra Daneos
> 1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong)
> 1 Female swordtail
>
> 3. Current losses
>
> 1 Male swordtail
> 1 Female Guppy
>
> What happened when the fish died :
>
> Both fish became lathargic, hovered at the surface of the water, and
> DIED.
>
> My poor wife has become the aquatic grim reaper as she has been
> putting the corpses in the freezer to bring back to the pet shop for
> warranty (lucky us!).
>
> The sick male guppy listed above is hanging around at the surface of
> the water and his fancy tail is torn to shreds.
>
> QUESTION:
>
> I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper
> bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra,
> I'm not sure if I should medicate or not.
>
> As we don't have a hospital tank, I'm concerned that medications will
> hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process.
>
> The other fish in the tank seem to be ok.
>
> Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about
> temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling
> process?
>
> If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is
> poured in the tank? Will letting the water stand overnight equally
> remove chlorine?
>
> Here is a little more detail as to what happened:
>
> 1. Got a 15 gallon tank.
>
> Pet shop thought it was a 20 gallon tank and advertised it as such. I
> bought too many fish for the size of the tank.
>
> It was in this tank that the 2 fish died.
>
> I tried treating the fish with Furon-2 for ich (the Neon Tetras I
> mean). I could only give a 2 day dosage though because I had to swap
> the tanks. I did not want to put this stuff in the new tank.
>
> 2. I got a 23 gallon tank.
>
> I started everything fresh without medicine. I put the cycle and
> chlorine clearing chemicals (Hagen). All the filter materials were
> replaced with new ones.
>
> I transfered the fish.
>
> The Platy gave us a baby bundle which is in the breeding trap and is
> growing fairly quickly.
>
> The male guppy is going through a slow, lingering death.
>
> Overall, I think the fish are doing better in the bigger tank - but
> still...
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> Neil

[Donald Kerns]

Tedd Jacobs wrote:

>
> "Donald Kerns" wrote
>
>> See my recent post on r.a.f.goldfish quoting the paper from the
>> Aquaculture Center...
>
> donald, could you repost that here, i dont have the r.a.f.g. :-(

As per request:

In the paper "Ich (White Spot Disease)" by R.M. Durborow et al of the
Southern Regional Aquaculture Center it says

"The amount of time needed for Ich to complete its life cycle is
temperature dependent. Ich commonly infects fish between 68-77 deg F,
but infections do occur at colder temperatures (as low as 33 deg F).

TYPICALLY, ich cannot reproduce properly at water temperatures above 85
deg F. (Got that folks 85 deg F!!! -dk). However, in a case in central
Florida, Ich was responsible for killing fish at 92 deg F."

--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Flash Wilson]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 06:37:50 GMT, coelacanth > wrote:
>I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, so I will suggest
>you try to get some Biospira. This stuff is expensive, but
>invaluable in this type of situation. You may have to call
>several stores before you find it, but it will surely help.

Coelacanth is talking about "seeding" your tank with bacteria
to get the cycle going faster. Good point! Another way to do this
is take some used filter floss from an established tank, or even
a few cups of gravel (although this is less effective) and put it
in your tank to introduce the bacteria. Why not ask your fish shop
if you can have some used filter floss, and then put it in your
tank - even if it doesnt fit in your filter, pin it under a rock
or float it in a breeding net trap or something, so the bacteria
can get into your tank and get the cycle kickstarted.

http://www.gorge.org/fish/beatingcycle.shtml describes how I did
this to one of my tanks. If you have a friend with a tank, even
better - use them ;)

--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I'm an advocate of sex before marriage.
Otherwise I wouldn't have had any at all."

[RedForeman ©®]

best advice anyone COULD give... that should be the second or third line of
every FAQ in a newsgroup...

"Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
> Tedd wrote:
>
> > p.s. one last piece of advice, there is no such thing as a stupid
> > question here.
>
> Although there are some that will draw the ire of our less tolerant
> co-posters.
>
> Set skin thickness to +3.
>
> -D
>
> P.S. Doing your homework also helps... Try here...
> http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/
> --
> "When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
> think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Tedd Jacobs]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 06:37:50 GMT, coelacanth > wrote:
> >I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, so I will suggest
> >you try to get some Biospira. This stuff is expensive, but
> >invaluable in this type of situation. You may have to call
> >several stores before you find it, but it will surely help.
>
> Coelacanth is talking about "seeding" your tank with bacteria
> to get the cycle going faster. Good point! Another way to do this
> is take some used filter floss from an established tank, or even
> a few cups of gravel (although this is less effective) and put it
> in your tank to introduce the bacteria. Why not ask your fish shop
> if you can have some used filter floss, and then put it in your
> tank - even if it doesnt fit in your filter, pin it under a rock
> or float it in a breeding net trap or something, so the bacteria
> can get into your tank and get the cycle kickstarted.
>
> http://www.gorge.org/fish/beatingcycle.shtml describes how I did
> this to one of my tanks. If you have a friend with a tank, even
> better - use them ;)
>

neil had tried that with a hagen product i think, ("- 1 dose of Hagen Cycle").
is this similar to the Biospira? better? worse? (i know nothing of fishless
cycles.) ;-)

tedd.

[Flash Wilson]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:46:08 -0700, Tedd Jacobs
> wrote:
>> http://www.gorge.org/fish/beatingcycle.shtml describes how I did
>> this to one of my tanks. If you have a friend with a tank, even
>> better - use them ;)
>
>neil had tried that with a hagen product i think, ("- 1 dose of Hagen Cycle").
>is this similar to the Biospira? better? worse? (i know nothing of fishless
>cycles.) ;-)

Ive heard that "cycle" is useless, and that the live bacterial
products are ok (but there is only one that works and I cant
recall if that's it?) I tried a denitrol product when I was a
newbie, but time is the main thing...



--
Flash Wilson Restaurant, music and gig reviews,
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Pylons, Tube and sponsor children,
Visit The Gorge... Images of London, festivals & cars
http://www.gorge.org and everything about Flash Wilson!

[NSP]

Hi everyone!

Thank you all for your help.

As expected, my male guppy is in the freezer, and a Zebra Daneo is
swimming toward the light.

I spoke with the pet store this morning, and while they are unwilling
to take the fish back, they will give me credit for the fish that die
because of the cycling issue (they've been very good with me overall -
so I trust them).

I spoke with their fish expert, and he thinks I should just let things
ride out as the tank should cycle within another week or two. After
the cycling finishes, I could then medicate.

I think this is a reasonable solution - though I do feel badly for my
fish.

It was a lot easier when I was 12 years old with my first 10 gallon
tropical tank. I had all the fish listed in this aquatic catastrophe
with almost no problems.

I think the secret was my limited allowance at the time only let me
buy two to three fish in a given month. My childhood allowance cycled
my tank!

I did a water change last night of about 15% of the water. I used a
bucket of lukewarm water with some aquaclear.

The petstore rep told me I should hold off another 2 weeks before I
change the water again. This is different from what I've read here -
so I don't know.

The ich is definately spreading though.

I don't know who to feel more for, the fish - or my gloved fiancee
making regular trips to the freezer!

Regards,
Neil

[RedForeman ©®]

Quick Cure, I've used it before and it does work... however, you've got so
many other things going on, not sure where to start... next time, look
before you leap....

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html is a great place to start...


"NSP" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi everyone!
>
> Thank you all for your help.
>
> As expected, my male guppy is in the freezer, and a Zebra Daneo is
> swimming toward the light.
>
> I spoke with the pet store this morning, and while they are unwilling
> to take the fish back, they will give me credit for the fish that die
> because of the cycling issue (they've been very good with me overall -
> so I trust them).
>
> I spoke with their fish expert, and he thinks I should just let things
> ride out as the tank should cycle within another week or two. After
> the cycling finishes, I could then medicate.
>
> I think this is a reasonable solution - though I do feel badly for my
> fish.
>
> It was a lot easier when I was 12 years old with my first 10 gallon
> tropical tank. I had all the fish listed in this aquatic catastrophe
> with almost no problems.
>
> I think the secret was my limited allowance at the time only let me
> buy two to three fish in a given month. My childhood allowance cycled
> my tank!
>
> I did a water change last night of about 15% of the water. I used a
> bucket of lukewarm water with some aquaclear.
>
> The petstore rep told me I should hold off another 2 weeks before I
> change the water again. This is different from what I've read here -
> so I don't know.
>
> The ich is definately spreading though.
>
> I don't know who to feel more for, the fish - or my gloved fiancee
> making regular trips to the freezer!
>
> Regards,
> Neil

[Donald Kerns]

NSP wrote:

<snip>

> I spoke with the pet store this morning, and while they are unwilling
> to take the fish back, they will give me credit for the fish that die
> because of the cycling issue (they've been very good with me overall -
> so I trust them).
>
> I spoke with their fish expert, and he thinks I should just let things
> ride out as the tank should cycle within another week or two. After
> the cycling finishes, I could then medicate.
>
> I think this is a reasonable solution - though I do feel badly for my
> fish.

OK. Seems a reasonable solution given your conditions. You're gonna lose
more fish.

Given that you're going to lose fish no matter what, here is a
compromise that MAY save some.

#1) Get some AmQuel. It neutralizes the ammonia in a way that still
allows the tank to cycle.
#2) Check and see if the majority of your fish can handle/tolerate 85
deg F water. If so, add additional air stones to the tank and raise the
temp up to that level (no more than 4 deg F per day).

The higher temp messes with the Ich's reproductive cycle, the AmQuel
handles the increase in ammonia toxicity due to the increased temp, the
additional O2 handles the lower DO2 level due to the higher water.

> It was a lot easier when I was 12 years old with my first 10 gallon
> tropical tank. I had all the fish listed in this aquatic catastrophe
> with almost no problems.

Prolly some plants too, right?

> I think the secret was my limited allowance at the time only let me
> buy two to three fish in a given month. My childhood allowance cycled
> my tank!

Bingo.

> The petstore rep told me I should hold off another 2 weeks before I
> change the water again. This is different from what I've read here -
> so I don't know.

Sigh. Different strokes for different folks.

Water changes will make the conditions easier on the fish (keeping the
ammonia and nitrIte levels lower), but MAY prolong the cycle period.

> The ich is definately spreading though.

Other non-medical solutions would be to get a diatomic filter and run
that puppy. This type of filter will filter out the ich organisms. I'm
not sure if a UV unit will kill ich. Probably, if the zap dosage is
high enough.

Others have success by darkening the tank. I have no experience with
this approach.

> I don't know who to feel more for, the fish - or my gloved fiancee
> making regular trips to the freezer!

[being a little more pointed than I normally am...]
Is there a reason she's doing this rather than you?

I've always found that having to directly deal with the consequences of
my mistakes / lack of knowledge (in the form of dead little jewels from
nature) to be strongly motivational for me not to screw up again.

They generally stay in the freezer until we plant the next set of
flowers. And get "buried" to help the flowers grow.

Other things to consider. If you have a source of low cost 5 gallon
buckets, you could transfer some of the fish into them to lower the
overall population density.

My $0.02US

-Donald
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[NSP]

Hi everyone.

Looks like the Zebra Daneo made it to the light. I think the female
swordtail is next. The neon tetras are covered in ich. I'm going to
keep the lights off for awhile.

I was doing some research with the ideas brought forward here, and I
came across an AquaClear filter insert called "Zeo-Carb". My
understanding is it helps filter out amonia.

Anyone have feedback on this product? Would it hinder cycling?

There is also "Ammo-rid", but I hear it takes away too much Ammonia
and hinders bacteria growth.

Incidentally, my fiancee tends to be the grim reaper because I work
nights, and she works days. For some reason, the fish survive the day.


Regards,
Neil

[Cris]

On 13 Nov 2003 12:52:28 -0800, (NSP) wrote:

>The petstore rep told me I should hold off another 2 weeks before I
>change the water again. This is different from what I've read here -
>so I don't know.

I think that's dangerous advice. Let me put it this way - if the
ammonia level gets too high and stays too high because you haven't
done enough water changes your tank won't cycle at all... probably
not even if you add old filter material or bio-spira. The nitrifying
bacteria cannot reproduce when the ammonia level is too high. I'm
sorry I don't know the specific level, but I've experienced this
myself while trying a fishless cycle. I had added too much ammonia
from the start and didn't do water changes because I was waiting for
the bacteria to take off. After over 2 months I finally changed like
50% and Wham, the entire cycle was over in 1 day.
Cris