betta, pothos and aqarium/epsom salt

[Nic. Santean]

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I have recently decided to add a photos to my 1gal.,
1 betta bowl. I would like to know whether aquarium
salt or epsom salt are harmful to the plant.

Thank you.

Nic. Santean
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~nic/




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[Nic. Santean]

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I meant "pothos", no "photos" :-)

"Nic. Santean" > wrote in message
>
> I have recently decided to add a photos to my 1gal.,
> 1 betta bowl. I would like to know whether aquarium
> salt or epsom salt are harmful to the plant.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Nic. Santean
> http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~nic/



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[TYNK 7]

>Subject: betta, pothos and aqarium/epsom salt
>From: "Nic. Santean"
>Date: 11/15/2003 1:40 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****
>
>I have recently decided to add a photos to my 1gal.,
>1 betta bowl. I would like to know whether aquarium
>salt or epsom salt are harmful to the plant.
>
>Thank you.
>
>Nic. Santean
>http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~nic/
>

I would recommend removing the Pothos plant.
They're not aquatic plants and if under the surface will rot in time.
If it's roots are hanging into the Betta bowl, it's not doing either the plant,
nor the fish any good. Both would be better on their own (Plant the Pothos in
some dirt and have a lovely hanging plant).
If you'd like to have a plant in with your Betta, I would recommend selecting
an aquatic plant, such as Java Fern, Hornwort, etc.

[Donald Kerns]

TYNK 7 wrote:

> I would recommend removing the Pothos plant.
> They're not aquatic plants and if under the surface will rot in time.
> If it's roots are hanging into the Betta bowl, it's not doing either
> the plant, nor the fish any good. Both would be better on their own
> (Plant the Pothos in some dirt and have a lovely hanging plant).

Not to be argumentative...

But, I'm experimenting with Pothos roots in the box of a Penguin 170 in
one of my goldfish tanks for denitration. The Pothos is growing and
putting out more roots...

-D
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

[Sajjad Lateef]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 04:57:10 +0000, TYNK 7 wrote:

> I would recommend removing the Pothos plant.
> They're not aquatic plants and if under the surface will rot in time.

True. Pothos is better utilized with the leaves in the air, but,
the roots in the water.

> If it's roots are hanging into the Betta bowl, it's not doing either the plant,
> nor the fish any good. Both would be better on their own (Plant the Pothos in
> some dirt and have a lovely hanging plant).

Actually, the John G Shedd Aquarium in Chicago has a lot of Pothos
growing in several FW tanks. The roots are in the water, but, the
leaves are in the air (emergent). I spoke to one of the biologists
and they say that they maintain the Pothos and some Maidenhair
Fern with the roots in the water to clean the water a bit.
(in addition to the UG filters in each tank and the gigantic
centralized wetdry system that they use)

I personally have a Pothos plant potted in soil on a ledge
above a tank. The vines droop down into the water, grow
a network of underwater roots and the leaves emerge out.
They clean the tank and provide a nice "look".

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)
>Subject: Re: betta, pothos and aqarium/epsom salt
>From: "Sajjad Lateef"
>Date: 11/17/2003 8:24 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>

>Actually, the John G Shedd Aquarium in Chicago has a lot of Pothos
>growing in several FW tanks. The roots are in the water, but, the
>leaves are in the air (emergent). I spoke to one of the biologists
>and they say that they maintain the

>Pothos and some Maidenhair
>Fern with the roots in the water to clean the water a bit.
>(in addition to the UG filters in each tank and the gigantic
>centralized wetdry system that they use)

Yes, however they have a lovey filter system running as well.
This person was talking about a 1gallon fishbowl.

[Monkey4you]

The salt myth has been around almost as long as the hobby itself. it
goes like this ... "You should always add salt to your tank water."
The quantity of salt you are told to add seems to vary with the poster
and the local mythology but generally is on the order of one
tablespoon per five gallons. This advice seems to be given with no
questions asked about water hardness, species of fish kept, presence
or absence of live plants, or even water volume of the tank. The "use
salt" prescription is presented as one of the great revealed truths
about captive fish husbandry, it's universal and it's rarely if ever
qualified or restricted. IT'S ALSO NOT BASED ON SCIENCE. In fact, it
goes against many of the principals of aquatic biology, as we know
them.

the statement that "salt helps fish regulate their osmotic balance" is
patently ridiculous! All fish are different in this regard, depending
on where they live. Some species are native to "soft water/low
dissolved solids" habitats while others inhabit hard and alkaline
biotopes with high salt concentrations inherent in the water. The
species inhabiting these very different environments have developed
metabolic processes which take advantage of the specific chemistry of
that water. to add salt in the misguided attempt to "help regulate
osmotic balance" may actually upset that very balance you are
erroneously trying to "help". your fish are much better served by
leaving them alone and allowing them to regulate their own osmotic
balance ... something they have been doing without your help for
thousands of years.

The idea that salt is a tonic for fish when it is kept in fish tanks
at moderate levels (~ 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons) needs to be taken
with a "grain of salt". If your fish are the most commonly kept
community fish such as tetras, corys, angels or even the rasboras and
most anabantids, these are fish largely from soft, acid, low-TDS
(total dissolved solids) waters. The average tap water in the U.S and
Europe is at least moderately hard and alkaline and is certainly not
improved by increasing the "salt" concentration ... that very thing in
which our water already differs most from the natural waters of these
fish. Certainly many of these fish adapt well to our local water
conditions and I am an advocate of adapting non-breeding fish to local
conditions. This is far better for both fish and keeper than
constantly battling see-sawing water parameters. But, acclimation to
your tap water is one thing .... making your water worse than it
already is however, is quite another.

The prophylactic use of salt to avoid common pathogens and parasites
of fish by keeping some level of salt in the tank is also fraught with
difficulty. True, the use of salt, usually accompanied by increased
temperature, is an effective treatment for one of the most common
ectoparasite which beginning aquarists encounter ... Ichthyophthirius
multifiliis, or Ich. However, only the free-swimming form of this
parasite is treatable. Neither the fish-embedded growth phase, nor the
encysted multiplication stage that rests on or in the substrate is
readily attacked by salt or any other medication. Thus prophylactic
treatment is useless as it makes little sense to treat a non-infected
tank on a chronic basis. Further, any treatment for parasitic
infestation is a "medication" and thus the use of salt differs little
from the use of any one of the other available Ick medications
available at any LFS. The biggest difference in my opinion though, is
that of all the medications available, salt is probably the least
effective by comparison.

Another fallacy is the addition of NaCl for livebearers. These fish as
a group are native to estuarine environments where the waters are
likely to be hard and alkaline at least and may even be brackish. The
addition of sodium chloride (i.e., "salt") does absolutely nothing to
match these species native waters since salt as comprises only a small
portion of the total "salt" concentration -- the more significant
elements are calcium, magnesium, potassium, boron and silicate salts.
It's important to note that the term "salt" isn't limited to sodium
chloride. Calcium and Magnesium salts of carbonate, silicate,
phosphate and borate are actually more important to the biology of
brackish water fish. If your water is at least moderately hard (GH and
KH 8-12) then the addition of some NaCl will do no harm. On the other
hand if your water is soft and acid the addition of sodium salt will
do little good. You need increased buffering capacity as much as the
addition of minerals to the water and NaCl alone does absolutely
nothing in this regard. You will need to add crushed coral or
aragonite, both of which are primarily calcium carbonate salts, in
addition to 'salt' as sodium chloride or better still, use marine salt
mix which contains the whole range of cations and anions (positively
and negatively charged ions, such as Na+, Ca ++; Cl-, CO3--) found in
the sea. This will adequately buffer your water and more closely match
the native waters of most live bearers in question.

Salt does have other limited uses. It temporarily reduces the effect
of nitrite toxicity at 0.1-0.3 % -- the chloride ion counteracting the
nitrogen blockage of oxygen uptake. Salt is useful for the eradication
of hydra at 0.3-0.5 % for five days. Salt will remove leeches from
pond fish as a 3.0 % bath for 15 minutes. Salt will mitigate the
affects of ulcer disease in cold water fish as a 1.0 % addition to the
tank water by temporarily reducing osmotic stress. Beyond these few
'uses of salt' ... it has no place in your aquarium.

Let's talk about some other aspects of "salt", in particular... the
hardness or softness of your water. The term 'hardness' arose
historically because water with higher levels of Ca and Mg are more
difficult to use for washing clothes - - - it is harder to produce a
lather from soap (or from detergent), hence "hard" water. General
Hardness (GH) is a measure of the concentration of calcium and
magnesium ions (Ca++, Mg++) in your water. Common ion exchange resins,
both those used as pillows in tank filters and in bulk in household
water "softeners" most typically exchange (Na+) for (Ca++) and (Mg++).
The nature of resin chemistry dictates that the charges must balance,
thus two (Na+) ions must be added to the water for each (Ca++) or
(Mg++) removed. The resulting water will be 'softer' by the laundry
definition but not by fish standards since the water now contains more
total ions than it did before the softener. The total dissolved solids
(TDS) in the water are higher than that with which we started despite
the fact that the GH test shows lower readings. The importance of this
for fish-keepers is this: Those fish which we call "soft water fish"
do not want "soft water" as we define it since fish don't do laundry.
They DO want water with low TDS which would include low GH as we
measure it and also low Na+ and Cl-. The Amazonian fish and some of
the SE Asians and riverine African cichlids come from waters with low
TDS ... yes; the water would read low in GH but would be low in sodium
as well. So what's the bottom line? If you want lower TDS water, you
must use peat extraction, de-ionization (DI), or reverse osmosis (RO).
Otherwise you do not have appropriate water for "soft water fish".


Dan's article not mine (Monkey).

[Nic. Santean]

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Thanks a lot for your information! Really helpful !

I really did not want to start a thread about the use
of salt in the case of fresh-water fish. I am aware
that it is controversial.

I just wanted to know whether a concentration of
"~ 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons" of aquarium salt is
harmful for a photos which is placed with only its stem
in the water. I plan to move the plant to a different setup,
once it emerges some roots (will it? - thinking about salt..).

I am also aware that 1gal for a mature betta may not be
enough, but I have it to my office, and I can not do better.
(I try to compensate with frequent water changes and the
use of pothos - I was told that for such a small bowl it is
better to go for a semi-aquatic setup, rather that for an
aquatic plant - and I can see why).

If I understand correctly, the salt (either aquarium, or epsom)
is harmful for the pothos. Have I understood correctly ?

P.S. You can see my betta at

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~nic/photo/fuzzy.html

Thanks once again,

Nic.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~nic/





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[NetMax]

"Monkey4you" > wrote in message
om...
<snip>
> The resulting water will be 'softer' by the laundry
> definition but not by fish standards since the water now contains more
> total ions than it did before the softener. The total dissolved solids
> (TDS) in the water are higher than that with which we started despite
> the fact that the GH test shows lower readings.

This is something I spend a lot of time explaining to my customers.

> The importance of this
> for fish-keepers is this: Those fish which we call "soft water fish"
> do not want "soft water" as we define it since fish don't do laundry.

ROTFLMAO, I might even use that line ;~)

> They DO want water with low TDS which would include low GH as we
> measure it and also low Na+ and Cl-. The Amazonian fish and some of
> the SE Asians and riverine African cichlids come from waters with low
> TDS ... yes; the water would read low in GH but would be low in sodium
> as well. So what's the bottom line? If you want lower TDS water, you
> must use peat extraction, de-ionization (DI), or reverse osmosis (RO).
> Otherwise you do not have appropriate water for "soft water fish".

For applications where salt and hardening is needed, consider using
marine salt. This adds calcium, hardening the water. One application is
when hardening water for brackish fish, or for Goldfish & livebearers
when your source water is extremely soft and unbuffered (<2dkH).

NetMax

> Dan's article not mine (Monkey).

[Sajjad Lateef]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:12:05 +0000, TYNK 7 wrote:
> This person was talking about a 1gallon fishbowl.

Ah ... my mistake. I was actually responding to your
assertion to remove the Pothos since it is not
an aquatic plant.

It can be used as an emergent plant and does very
well in that capacity.

To the OP: Go ahead and add Pothos to your Betta
bowl with the roots in the water and the leaves
in the air. It'll be fine even with a little bit
of table salt or epsom salt. Too much, then both
the Betta and the plant will start to look bad.
(presuming you have very soft water)

Sajjad

[Sajjad Lateef]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:13:36 -0800, Monkey4you wrote:

> Dan's article not mine (Monkey).

Great article. Dan who?

I use "Instant Ocean" brand salt for addition to my
brackish water tank for livebearers.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: betta, pothos and aqarium/epsom salt
>From: "Sajjad Lateef"
>Date: 11/18/2003 10:06 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:12:05 +0000, TYNK 7 wrote:
>> This person was talking about a 1gallon fishbowl.
>
>Ah ... my mistake. I was actually responding to your
>assertion to remove the Pothos since it is not
>an aquatic plant.
>
>It can be used as an emergent plant and does very
>well in that capacity.
>
>To the OP: Go ahead and add Pothos to your Betta
>bowl with the roots in the water and the leaves
>in the air. It'll be fine even with a little bit
>of table salt or epsom salt. Too much, then both
>the Betta and the plant will start to look bad.
>(presuming you have very soft water)
>
>Sajjad
>

I still recommend keeping the plant out of it.
The Betta will benefit from the added room that the roots would take up.