Newbie Q, help picking fish and other advice

[Mike]

Hi,

I'm setting up my first tank, and although I've read just about
everything I could find about setting up the tank, I'm not finding a
lot of information on what fish I should get.

I have a 55 gallon tank that was filled with tap water (well water)
for a few days with the filter running. I don't know what you call the
type of filter, but it takes 2 square filters, and it flows water back
into the tank waterfall-style. I also have a canister filter that I've
been told I don't need, so it's not being used. The pH is about 7.3,
and the temperature is staying at about 70 degrees without a heater.

Based on what I read online, I bought 5 1-2" goldfish first (something
about letting algae build to take care of the ammonia). I don't know
exactly what type, but they're silver-ish with orange stripes on their
back. Over the next couple of weeks, I also added a black moor and a
fantail (both about 4"), then recently a male betta (about 2"). No
living plants at all. So far so good, though, everyone seems to be
doing well.

I would like to add a larger fish, and then several small fish like
neon tetras. I think my tank would support it, based on the guideline
of 1"-per-gallon (I currently have less than 20"). So, here are my
questions:

(1) do I need any other equipment than the waterfall-type filter?

(2) before doing anything, how big will the other fish get? Are they
pretty much full grown, or will they get bigger in this size tank?
I've heard that they'll grow "to fit the tank," but I don't know if
this is true.

(3) will neon tetras work well in this tank with the other fish? I
mainly just like them because they're tiny and fast, so if they won't
work out, then what other suggestions do you have?

(4) if I can also support a single larger fish, I have no idea what to
look for. The more interesting it looks, the better, and of course I
would want a fish that is fun to watch, but I need something that is
OK with my other fish and the rest of the tank.

TIA for any advice you can give!

Mike

[JHudson]

Hi Mike,
I'm a relative newbie, but I'll share what I know. First, the number of
goldfish you have in the tank means that it is already overstocked from what
I've been told. Goldfish produce a large amount of waste and I've heard 10
and 20-30 gallons per fish for goldfish to be ideal. The one inch per
gallon rule while helpful does not apply to most fish, it can work with
tetras and other similar thin fish but when you start looking at other more
thicker fish(for lack of a better word) such as oscars they produce a lot
more waste then the length dictates.
The first five you got are probably comet goldfish (do they look like a
typical fish?) and they can grow to over 12 inches and the moor and fantail
can get 8-10 inches I believe.
They will not grow to fit the space they are, that is a common myth.
Growth does depend on environment, but all things being ideal they will
outgrow the space quickly.
Also goldfish do not do well when mixed with tropical fish and vice versa.
You should pick one or the other.
HTH
--
JHudson
Sure. Fine. Whatever. -Syzygy
I have. I did. It's done. -Fight the Future
Duct tape is like the Force, it has a dark side and a light side and it
holds the universe together.
I'm completely normal, just the rest of the world is nuts...
There are lies, damn lies and statistics!

"Mike" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi,
>
> I'm setting up my first tank, and although I've read just about
> everything I could find about setting up the tank, I'm not finding a
> lot of information on what fish I should get.
>
> I have a 55 gallon tank that was filled with tap water (well water)
> for a few days with the filter running. I don't know what you call the
> type of filter, but it takes 2 square filters, and it flows water back
> into the tank waterfall-style. I also have a canister filter that I've
> been told I don't need, so it's not being used. The pH is about 7.3,
> and the temperature is staying at about 70 degrees without a heater.
>
> Based on what I read online, I bought 5 1-2" goldfish first (something
> about letting algae build to take care of the ammonia). I don't know
> exactly what type, but they're silver-ish with orange stripes on their
> back. Over the next couple of weeks, I also added a black moor and a
> fantail (both about 4"), then recently a male betta (about 2"). No
> living plants at all. So far so good, though, everyone seems to be
> doing well.
>
> I would like to add a larger fish, and then several small fish like
> neon tetras. I think my tank would support it, based on the guideline
> of 1"-per-gallon (I currently have less than 20"). So, here are my
> questions:
>
> (1) do I need any other equipment than the waterfall-type filter?
>
> (2) before doing anything, how big will the other fish get? Are they
> pretty much full grown, or will they get bigger in this size tank?
> I've heard that they'll grow "to fit the tank," but I don't know if
> this is true.
>
> (3) will neon tetras work well in this tank with the other fish? I
> mainly just like them because they're tiny and fast, so if they won't
> work out, then what other suggestions do you have?
>
> (4) if I can also support a single larger fish, I have no idea what to
> look for. The more interesting it looks, the better, and of course I
> would want a fish that is fun to watch, but I need something that is
> OK with my other fish and the rest of the tank.
>
> TIA for any advice you can give!
>
> Mike

[Felix]

I would hook up the canister filter, just to see how they work, they do take
care of a lot of waste that fish produce. Experience is always good. Felix
"JHudson" > wrote in message
news:Q_hwb.142938$jy.105887@clgrps13...
> Hi Mike,
> I'm a relative newbie, but I'll share what I know. First, the number of
> goldfish you have in the tank means that it is already overstocked from
what
> I've been told. Goldfish produce a large amount of waste and I've heard
10
> and 20-30 gallons per fish for goldfish to be ideal. The one inch per
> gallon rule while helpful does not apply to most fish, it can work with
> tetras and other similar thin fish but when you start looking at other
more
> thicker fish(for lack of a better word) such as oscars they produce a lot
> more waste then the length dictates.
> The first five you got are probably comet goldfish (do they look like a
> typical fish?) and they can grow to over 12 inches and the moor and
fantail
> can get 8-10 inches I believe.
> They will not grow to fit the space they are, that is a common myth.
> Growth does depend on environment, but all things being ideal they will
> outgrow the space quickly.
> Also goldfish do not do well when mixed with tropical fish and vice
versa.
> You should pick one or the other.
> HTH
> --
> JHudson
> Sure. Fine. Whatever. -Syzygy
> I have. I did. It's done. -Fight the Future
> Duct tape is like the Force, it has a dark side and a light side and it
> holds the universe together.
> I'm completely normal, just the rest of the world is nuts...
> There are lies, damn lies and statistics!
>
> "Mike" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm setting up my first tank, and although I've read just about
> > everything I could find about setting up the tank, I'm not finding a
> > lot of information on what fish I should get.
> >
> > I have a 55 gallon tank that was filled with tap water (well water)
> > for a few days with the filter running. I don't know what you call the
> > type of filter, but it takes 2 square filters, and it flows water back
> > into the tank waterfall-style. I also have a canister filter that I've
> > been told I don't need, so it's not being used. The pH is about 7.3,
> > and the temperature is staying at about 70 degrees without a heater.
> >
> > Based on what I read online, I bought 5 1-2" goldfish first (something
> > about letting algae build to take care of the ammonia). I don't know
> > exactly what type, but they're silver-ish with orange stripes on their
> > back. Over the next couple of weeks, I also added a black moor and a
> > fantail (both about 4"), then recently a male betta (about 2"). No
> > living plants at all. So far so good, though, everyone seems to be
> > doing well.
> >
> > I would like to add a larger fish, and then several small fish like
> > neon tetras. I think my tank would support it, based on the guideline
> > of 1"-per-gallon (I currently have less than 20"). So, here are my
> > questions:
> >
> > (1) do I need any other equipment than the waterfall-type filter?
> >
> > (2) before doing anything, how big will the other fish get? Are they
> > pretty much full grown, or will they get bigger in this size tank?
> > I've heard that they'll grow "to fit the tank," but I don't know if
> > this is true.
> >
> > (3) will neon tetras work well in this tank with the other fish? I
> > mainly just like them because they're tiny and fast, so if they won't
> > work out, then what other suggestions do you have?
> >
> > (4) if I can also support a single larger fish, I have no idea what to
> > look for. The more interesting it looks, the better, and of course I
> > would want a fish that is fun to watch, but I need something that is
> > OK with my other fish and the rest of the tank.
> >
> > TIA for any advice you can give!
> >
> > Mike
>
>

[Mike]

Hi J,

Geez, 20-30 gallons per goldfish?? That's tough, 2 goldfish in my 55
gallon tank would look very, very lonely. Is there anything I can do
to expedite the growth of bacteria to eliminate the waste?

You're right, the fish I have now pretty much look like every other
fish I've ever seen. If the fish I have now grow to 8-12", my tank
would be very full, but I do have another tank I could move some of
them into. Any idea what kind of time frame I'm looking at for them to
get that size?

What's the difference between goldfish and tropical fish? How can I
tell the difference? The black moor and fantail were in the same tank
as the goldfish at the store, which is why I figured they would go
well together, but that's all I have to go on.

Thanks again,

Mike



"JHudson" > wrote in message news:<Q_hwb.142938$jy.105887@clgrps13>...
> Hi Mike,
> I'm a relative newbie, but I'll share what I know. First, the number of
> goldfish you have in the tank means that it is already overstocked from what
> I've been told. Goldfish produce a large amount of waste and I've heard 10
> and 20-30 gallons per fish for goldfish to be ideal. The one inch per
> gallon rule while helpful does not apply to most fish, it can work with
> tetras and other similar thin fish but when you start looking at other more
> thicker fish(for lack of a better word) such as oscars they produce a lot
> more waste then the length dictates.
> The first five you got are probably comet goldfish (do they look like a
> typical fish?) and they can grow to over 12 inches and the moor and fantail
> can get 8-10 inches I believe.
> They will not grow to fit the space they are, that is a common myth.
> Growth does depend on environment, but all things being ideal they will
> outgrow the space quickly.
> Also goldfish do not do well when mixed with tropical fish and vice versa.
> You should pick one or the other.
> HTH
> --
> JHudson
> Sure. Fine. Whatever. -Syzygy
> I have. I did. It's done. -Fight the Future
> Duct tape is like the Force, it has a dark side and a light side and it
> holds the universe together.
> I'm completely normal, just the rest of the world is nuts...
> There are lies, damn lies and statistics!
>
> "Mike" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm setting up my first tank, and although I've read just about
> > everything I could find about setting up the tank, I'm not finding a
> > lot of information on what fish I should get.
> >
> > I have a 55 gallon tank that was filled with tap water (well water)
> > for a few days with the filter running. I don't know what you call the
> > type of filter, but it takes 2 square filters, and it flows water back
> > into the tank waterfall-style. I also have a canister filter that I've
> > been told I don't need, so it's not being used. The pH is about 7.3,
> > and the temperature is staying at about 70 degrees without a heater.
> >
> > Based on what I read online, I bought 5 1-2" goldfish first (something
> > about letting algae build to take care of the ammonia). I don't know
> > exactly what type, but they're silver-ish with orange stripes on their
> > back. Over the next couple of weeks, I also added a black moor and a
> > fantail (both about 4"), then recently a male betta (about 2"). No
> > living plants at all. So far so good, though, everyone seems to be
> > doing well.
> >
> > I would like to add a larger fish, and then several small fish like
> > neon tetras. I think my tank would support it, based on the guideline
> > of 1"-per-gallon (I currently have less than 20"). So, here are my
> > questions:
> >
> > (1) do I need any other equipment than the waterfall-type filter?
> >
> > (2) before doing anything, how big will the other fish get? Are they
> > pretty much full grown, or will they get bigger in this size tank?
> > I've heard that they'll grow "to fit the tank," but I don't know if
> > this is true.
> >
> > (3) will neon tetras work well in this tank with the other fish? I
> > mainly just like them because they're tiny and fast, so if they won't
> > work out, then what other suggestions do you have?
> >
> > (4) if I can also support a single larger fish, I have no idea what to
> > look for. The more interesting it looks, the better, and of course I
> > would want a fish that is fun to watch, but I need something that is
> > OK with my other fish and the rest of the tank.
> >
> > TIA for any advice you can give!
> >
> > Mike

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)
>Subject: Re: Newbie Q, help picking fish and other advice
>From: (Mike)
>Date: 11/24/2003 9:55 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>What's the difference between goldfish and tropical fish? How can I
>tell the difference? The black moor and fantail were in the same tank
>as the goldfish at the store, which is why I figured they would go
>well together, but that's all I have to go on.

Black Moors and Fantails *are* Goldfish.
The tropicals the other poster was refering to were the Betta that you already
have in there (That's a bad move for the Betta! He's going to get shredded by
the Goldies, as well as needing warmer temps), and the thought of adding neon
Tetras, ert. later.
Tropical fish have different requirements..food and environment, than Goldies
do.
As it is, the fish you already have in the tank are going to become crowded
when grown. Forget about adding any more, and please put that poor Betta in a
different tank.
For them (the Betta), he'd be best in a tank with a heater and a filter. I
recommend nothing smaller than a gallon tank.
They prefer temps between 78-80*f.
The Goldies like it much cooler than that.
Others can better tell you their preferred temp.
Good luck! = )

[Mike]

Ouch! I didn't know that about the betta. I had to buy the fish at
Wal-Mart (the only place within an hour of here that sells fish, to my
knowledge), and since they had bettas in other tanks with goldfish, I
assumed it'd be OK. None of the associates there knew any more than I
did, so it was all guess-and-go.

I do have a 10 gallon tank that's just laying around, so would it be
OK to put the betta and 4-5 neon tetras together in there? How big
will they get?

Thanks again,

Mike




> Black Moors and Fantails *are* Goldfish.
> The tropicals the other poster was refering to were the Betta that you already
> have in there (That's a bad move for the Betta! He's going to get shredded by
> the Goldies, as well as needing warmer temps), and the thought of adding neon
> Tetras, ert. later.
> Tropical fish have different requirements..food and environment, than Goldies
> do.
> As it is, the fish you already have in the tank are going to become crowded
> when grown. Forget about adding any more, and please put that poor Betta in a
> different tank.
> For them (the Betta), he'd be best in a tank with a heater and a filter. I
> recommend nothing smaller than a gallon tank.
> They prefer temps between 78-80*f.
> The Goldies like it much cooler than that.
> Others can better tell you their preferred temp.
> Good luck! = )

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Newbie Q, help picking fish and other advice
>From: (Mike)
>Date: 11/24/2003 5:59 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Ouch! I didn't know that about the betta. I had to buy the fish at
>Wal-Mart (the only place within an hour of here that sells fish, to my
>knowledge), and since they had bettas in other tanks with goldfish, I
>assumed it'd be OK. None of the associates there knew any more than I
>did, so it was all guess-and-go.
>
>I do have a 10 gallon tank that's just laying around, so would it be
>OK to put the betta and 4-5 neon tetras together in there? How big
>will they get?
>
>Thanks again,
>
>Mike
>

That would be a great tank for the Betta and some friends.
If you plan on using Neons (a great choice with Bettas), and plan on using the
newly set up 10g, I'd find out where you can get a product called BioSpira.
It's made buy Marineland. It's the only bacteria starter that has the correct
type of bacteria.
The other bacteria starter products don't have the right type, such as Cycle,
or Bio Zyme, etc. Don't waste money on them, or believe somebody telling you
that it's the same as the BioSpira, because it's not.
If you can't find the BioSpira, wait on the Neons. They don't do so well in a
cycling tank, and are usually the first ones to die off from "new tank
syndrome".
If you still want to use them, wait until the tank has fully cycled (about a
month or so).
Oh....when calling around for the BioSpira, if the employee doesn't sound like
they know what you're talking about...say that it needs to be kept
refrigerated, and that it won't be on the shelf with the other "cycling" waste
of money, oops I mean products. = )~
If you have the chain pet shop, Pet Land near you, most of those carry it.
PetSmart carries the other Marineland products in that series of stuff, but not
the BioSpira....but they advertise it in there store. I'm stil confused as to
if they carry it or not. = /
Forget about stores such as Wal-Mart, etc. Not gonna happen there.
Don't get discouraged. You're learning now and it can only get easier and more
enjoyable for both you, and the fish you keep. = )
Sadly, many folks don't want to learn and end up killing their fish or giving
up the hobby.
I have a wonderful book you could read too....some libraries even have it.
It's "The idiots guide to freshwater aquariums". Pay no attention to the
"idiots" part in that title.
The book is great for newbies, as it explains everything you need to learn
about the hobby in normal english. It doesn't throw huge words and numbers,
that may as well be another language when you're first starting out, at you.
It also has little "fish and tips" here and there that help to explain things,
or let you know something special.
Good luck, and post how you're doing from time to time. = )

[asginpg]

(Mike) wrote in message >...
> Hi,
>
> I'm setting up my first tank, and although I've read just about
> everything I could find about setting up the tank, I'm not finding a
> lot of information on what fish I should get.
the temperature is staying at about 70 degrees without a heater.

Warning: Long message with beginner information from a beginner

Hi, I am just a beginner but I thought I might add my two cents. You
have had a lot of very good advice from the old timers, but as a
beginner I know where you are coming from. Firstly, you should go on
the net and look at the many very good sites on keeping fish (some of
the sites have been suggested in this group). You will note that each
fish has an optimal temperature, PH and salinity range. Fish are
often separated into four groups basic groups.

1. Cold (fresh water) (about 60 (or less) to 70) depending on the
species
2. Tropical or warm water (about 72 - 80) depending on the species
3. Marine or sal****er. Warmer salty water
4. Brackish (never really understood this but appears to be fish that
can stand fresh or salt water)

My understanding is that since fish live in water they have to have a
method of maintaining proper water balance in their bodies. Whichever
method they have developed is effected by the level of salt and
temperature in the water. If you try to keep fish out of their
preferred temperature or salt ranges some will just die, others will
adapt and others will appear to adapt and become stressed and ill
(depending on the species or the individual, other stresses in the
tank and how far off their preferences you are). Many fish diseases
are supposedly found in all tanks and stressed fish become vulnerable.
A beta on its own in a cool tank *might* do alright but throw a few
busy goldfish in and the stress might be too much for him.

There are two basic types of goldfish and you have both types. One
type looks like a "normal" fish and you likely have feeder goldfish
that are common goldfish or comet goldfish. They will grow to 8 to 12
inches or more depending not on the size of the tank but on their
health and well being. They can live for 15 to 20 plus years and will
eat anything that fits into their mouths (poor betta?). When they are
larger they can stand temperatures below freezing level (with special
care) and are good pond fish. You likely have feeders which are not
bred with care and might not make it. Watch for illness.

Your Black Moor and Fantail are fancy goldfish. Most fancy goldfish
cannot compete for food with common goldfish, but the Black Moor and
the Fantail are the exception, though you should keep an eye on them
when your other goldfish are larger. Fancy goldfish don't swim as
well, can't handle as large a range of temperatures, are more prone to
stress and illness and don't live as long (14 years) as their common
cousins. However, I think they are better aquarium fish as they
appear more comfortable with less room.

All goldfish are dirty and always appear to be starving. The tank
will have to be cleaned more than with other fish and overfeeding
should be avoided. If you have a good filter and are willing to clean
the tank at least once per week, you can put in more fish than 1
goldfish per 10 gallon, in my opinion. (Use a gravel cleaner to take
off 10 -15 % of the water from the bottom of the tank along with all
the gunk.) However, when you calculate the number of fish, you do have
to consider their size as an adult. I have fancy goldfish in a tank
that will be too small for them in a year or two, but I am committed
to buying a larger tank. (This is in fact their second home -- I
bought them when they were smaller than you feeder fish). You can
also spend more money and buy larger goldfish (same goldfish, just
older).

Other coldwater fish include white clouds, crabs, ghost shrimp and
aquatic snails.

I personally think goldfish are great, though I would not combine the
fancy and common types.


Good luck!

[asginpg]

(Mike) wrote in message >...
> Ouch! I didn't know that about the betta. I had to buy the fish at
> Wal-Mart (the only place within an hour of here that sells fish, to my
> knowledge), .
>>
> Thanks again,
>
> Mike

BTW, be VERY careful about Walmart. Since they are your closest
retailer, I suggest you know what you want before you go. They sold
me a one gallon tank and water declorinator. Told me to "cycle" it by
setting it up for one day. Sold me 4 feeder goldfish as pets for the
one gallon tank (they all died) later they sold me two fancy goldfish
and when I told them I was having trouble keeping the tank clean they
sold me a pleco! I was too trusting. They will sell you anything
that pops into your head. They want to please you -- not the fish.