Help - Am I going to poison my fish with the background I built ? (NetMax please read)

[Alan Silver]

Hello,

[NOTE - this message covers some of what came out of the thread "How
many times should I wash out the tank before adding fish ?" currently
here. I posted this separately as I wanted to get more opinions,
especially from people who have built backgrounds like mine.]

Some time ago I started a thread "What do I use to stick rocks together
?" (see Message-ID: >) and
was advised (mainly by NetMax with the help of some useful links) to
build a fake rock background out of polystyrene.

Briefly what I did was get some polystyrene ceiling tiles and stick them
together to make a sheet big enough for the background. I then cut some
rocks out of bigger bits of polystyrene and stuck them on the tiles with
aquarium-safe silicone. I then painted it with non-toxic water-based
paints (from Toys-R-Us, 99p for a litre) and gave it two coats of 2-part
epoxy to seal it.

Well, after working on it for quite some time, I finally finished it and
was very pleased. It looks very realistic and has loads of caves for the
cichlids to hide. I stuck it in the tank and prepared for the first
fill.

I filled up the tank for the first time yesterday. To my horror, about
an hour after filling, I saw what looked like streams of milky substance
coming off the background. There were also loads of brown particles
coming off the background. This continued most of the day. By this
morning, the brown particles appear to have stopped. There are quite a
lot on the floor of the tank and on horizontal bits of the background,
but I don't think any more are coming off. The milky stuff also appears
to have stopped streaming, but the tank water is very milky.

First, does anyone have any idea what could have caused this ? I am
pretty certain that the epoxy sealed the paint in all over. I don't
understand how the brown particles, which look like paint powder, could
have got off the background. Also, anyone any idea what the white stuff
is? The epoxy I used was West Systems epoxy and is designed for boats,
so is definitely waterproof. I found the stuff from someone else in this
newsgroup who used it in his tank without any of these sorts of
problems.

Anyway, I intend to empty the tank tonight, wash the background well to
remove any more particles, then clean out the gunk from the bottom and
refill. If the refill remains clear and clean, I will risk some small
cheap living creature to see if it survives.

I'm a bit desperate here. I realise it's almost impossible for anyone to
say clearly what has happened, but I'm just hoping someone may have some
ideas. I'm really worried about the idea of putting fish into a tank
that may contain poisons. On the other hand, the thought of ripping out
the background upsets me too. I worked very hard on it for quite a long
time and just don't have the time or heart to make another. I'm not even
sure I would get this one out cleanly as I stuck it in well.

Any advice would be very gratefully received. TIA.

--
Alan Silver

[NetMax]

"Alan Silver"
> wrote
in message ...
> Hello,
>
> [NOTE - this message covers some of what came out of the thread "How
> many times should I wash out the tank before adding fish ?" currently
> here. I posted this separately as I wanted to get more opinions,
> especially from people who have built backgrounds like mine.]
>
> Some time ago I started a thread "What do I use to stick rocks together
> ?" (see Message-ID: >) and
> was advised (mainly by NetMax with the help of some useful links) to
> build a fake rock background out of polystyrene.
>
> Briefly what I did was get some polystyrene ceiling tiles and stick
them
> together to make a sheet big enough for the background. I then cut some
> rocks out of bigger bits of polystyrene and stuck them on the tiles
with
> aquarium-safe silicone. I then painted it with non-toxic water-based
> paints (from Toys-R-Us, 99p for a litre) and gave it two coats of
2-part
> epoxy to seal it.
>
> Well, after working on it for quite some time, I finally finished it
and
> was very pleased. It looks very realistic and has loads of caves for
the
> cichlids to hide. I stuck it in the tank and prepared for the first
> fill.
>
> I filled up the tank for the first time yesterday. To my horror, about
> an hour after filling, I saw what looked like streams of milky
substance
> coming off the background. There were also loads of brown particles
> coming off the background. This continued most of the day. By this
> morning, the brown particles appear to have stopped. There are quite a
> lot on the floor of the tank and on horizontal bits of the background,
> but I don't think any more are coming off. The milky stuff also appears
> to have stopped streaming, but the tank water is very milky.
>
> First, does anyone have any idea what could have caused this ? I am
> pretty certain that the epoxy sealed the paint in all over. I don't
> understand how the brown particles, which look like paint powder, could
> have got off the background. Also, anyone any idea what the white stuff
> is? The epoxy I used was West Systems epoxy and is designed for boats,
> so is definitely waterproof. I found the stuff from someone else in
this
> newsgroup who used it in his tank without any of these sorts of
> problems.
>
> Anyway, I intend to empty the tank tonight, wash the background well to
> remove any more particles, then clean out the gunk from the bottom and
> refill. If the refill remains clear and clean, I will risk some small
> cheap living creature to see if it survives.
>
> I'm a bit desperate here. I realise it's almost impossible for anyone
to
> say clearly what has happened, but I'm just hoping someone may have
some
> ideas. I'm really worried about the idea of putting fish into a tank
> that may contain poisons. On the other hand, the thought of ripping out
> the background upsets me too. I worked very hard on it for quite a long
> time and just don't have the time or heart to make another. I'm not
even
> sure I would get this one out cleanly as I stuck it in well.
>
> Any advice would be very gratefully received. TIA.
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

Polystyrene is non-toxic. Properly cured West System's epoxy is
non-toxic. Your paint might have released some particulates, but it's
probably non-toxic as well. It appears the paint was not completely
sealed by epoxy (?). There might have been a bare spot, or some crevices
which were not sealed? This should not present a real problem. Unsealed
areas will be prone to loosing their paint due to abrasion from plecos,
but if it's just crevices, then it's not a problem. If the underside of
the structure was painted and not sealed, then you might have paint
particulates slowly coming off the polystyrene as you get water behind
it. I imagine this will just get caught into the filter over time (if it
enters the water column). Another possibility was some voids in the
polystyrene filled with water and released some particulates.

I'd fill the tank and let it soak a couple of days. I'd then do a 100%
water change and observe the water. If there were any particulates
bothering you, repeat the water change after a couple of days. If the
water appears clean, then activate the filtration with some fresh carbon
(which gets thrown away after 3-4 weeks).

I have no bad news regarding my last epoxied polystyrene structure. It's
been in the tank over a year, fish are fine, plants are growing, the
surface gets a bit of algae which the bushynose then promptly scrapes
off. I used several layers of epoxy, with sand in the last 2 layers to
give it a texture to match my rockwork.

I'd agree with your assessment to proceed slowly but deliberately, and
introduce a low cost but sensitive creature to do your final test. When
do we get to see pictures?

NetMax

[Jim Morcombe]

I'd be worried about the non-toxic paint.

Just because baby humans can eat the stuff, this doesn't mean fish can swim
in it and breathe it.

It sounds like you need to empty out the tank and let it dry out for a
couple of days in the sun.

Then attack it thoroughly with Epoxy Paint. Make sure you get plenty of the
paint in all the cracks and arount the edges.

Jim


NetMax > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Alan Silver"
> > wrote
> in message ...
> > Hello,
> >
> > [NOTE - this message covers some of what came out of the thread "How
> > many times should I wash out the tank before adding fish ?" currently
> > here. I posted this separately as I wanted to get more opinions,
> > especially from people who have built backgrounds like mine.]
> >
> > Some time ago I started a thread "What do I use to stick rocks together
> > ?" (see Message-ID: >) and
> > was advised (mainly by NetMax with the help of some useful links) to
> > build a fake rock background out of polystyrene.
> >
> > Briefly what I did was get some polystyrene ceiling tiles and stick
> them
> > together to make a sheet big enough for the background. I then cut some
> > rocks out of bigger bits of polystyrene and stuck them on the tiles
> with
> > aquarium-safe silicone. I then painted it with non-toxic water-based
> > paints (from Toys-R-Us, 99p for a litre) and gave it two coats of
> 2-part
> > epoxy to seal it.
> >
> > Well, after working on it for quite some time, I finally finished it
> and
> > was very pleased. It looks very realistic and has loads of caves for
> the
> > cichlids to hide. I stuck it in the tank and prepared for the first
> > fill.
> >
> > I filled up the tank for the first time yesterday. To my horror, about
> > an hour after filling, I saw what looked like streams of milky
> substance
> > coming off the background. There were also loads of brown particles
> > coming off the background. This continued most of the day. By this
> > morning, the brown particles appear to have stopped. There are quite a
> > lot on the floor of the tank and on horizontal bits of the background,
> > but I don't think any more are coming off. The milky stuff also appears
> > to have stopped streaming, but the tank water is very milky.
> >
> > First, does anyone have any idea what could have caused this ? I am
> > pretty certain that the epoxy sealed the paint in all over. I don't
> > understand how the brown particles, which look like paint powder, could
> > have got off the background. Also, anyone any idea what the white stuff
> > is? The epoxy I used was West Systems epoxy and is designed for boats,
> > so is definitely waterproof. I found the stuff from someone else in
> this
> > newsgroup who used it in his tank without any of these sorts of
> > problems.
> >
> > Anyway, I intend to empty the tank tonight, wash the background well to
> > remove any more particles, then clean out the gunk from the bottom and
> > refill. If the refill remains clear and clean, I will risk some small
> > cheap living creature to see if it survives.
> >
> > I'm a bit desperate here. I realise it's almost impossible for anyone
> to
> > say clearly what has happened, but I'm just hoping someone may have
> some
> > ideas. I'm really worried about the idea of putting fish into a tank
> > that may contain poisons. On the other hand, the thought of ripping out
> > the background upsets me too. I worked very hard on it for quite a long
> > time and just don't have the time or heart to make another. I'm not
> even
> > sure I would get this one out cleanly as I stuck it in well.
> >
> > Any advice would be very gratefully received. TIA.
> >
> > --
> > Alan Silver
> >
>
> Polystyrene is non-toxic. Properly cured West System's epoxy is
> non-toxic. Your paint might have released some particulates, but it's
> probably non-toxic as well. It appears the paint was not completely
> sealed by epoxy (?). There might have been a bare spot, or some crevices
> which were not sealed? This should not present a real problem. Unsealed
> areas will be prone to loosing their paint due to abrasion from plecos,
> but if it's just crevices, then it's not a problem. If the underside of
> the structure was painted and not sealed, then you might have paint
> particulates slowly coming off the polystyrene as you get water behind
> it. I imagine this will just get caught into the filter over time (if it
> enters the water column). Another possibility was some voids in the
> polystyrene filled with water and released some particulates.
>
> I'd fill the tank and let it soak a couple of days. I'd then do a 100%
> water change and observe the water. If there were any particulates
> bothering you, repeat the water change after a couple of days. If the
> water appears clean, then activate the filtration with some fresh carbon
> (which gets thrown away after 3-4 weeks).
>
> I have no bad news regarding my last epoxied polystyrene structure. It's
> been in the tank over a year, fish are fine, plants are growing, the
> surface gets a bit of algae which the bushynose then promptly scrapes
> off. I used several layers of epoxy, with sand in the last 2 layers to
> give it a texture to match my rockwork.
>
> I'd agree with your assessment to proceed slowly but deliberately, and
> introduce a low cost but sensitive creature to do your final test. When
> do we get to see pictures?
>
> NetMax
>
>

[Alan Silver]

[Note - I replied to Jim's post as NetMax's didn't appear on my server.
Will reply to Jim's words separately]

>> Polystyrene is non-toxic. Properly cured West System's epoxy is
>> non-toxic. Your paint might have released some particulates, but it's
>> probably non-toxic as well.

That's the theory ;-)

>> It appears the paint was not completely
>> sealed by epoxy (?).

AFAIK it was, but you can't be sure. The problem is not one of paint
creeping out of a few spots where I might have missed with the epoxy,
the problem appears to be more than the epoxy is dissolving. I have what
looks like streams of milky substance coming off the surfaces of the
background. I think the brown particles were just bits of paint that
came off when the epoxy dissolved.

Now go on, tell me that epoxy can't dissolve in water and I'll agree.
just don't have any other explanation for what I'm seeing.

<snip>
>> I'd fill the tank and let it soak a couple of days. I'd then do a 100%
>> water change and observe the water. If there were any particulates
>> bothering you, repeat the water change after a couple of days. If the
>> water appears clean, then activate the filtration with some fresh carbon
>> (which gets thrown away after 3-4 weeks).

I left it for 36 hours after the first fill. The water was really milky
and there were loads of particles around.

Last night I emptied it out and gave it a good wash out to get rid of
the particles. I refilled it again a couple of hours ago (1pm GMT) and
the water is certainly a lot better than it was two hours after the
first fill. There is still some milky stuff coming off parts of the
background, but not so much. I'm going to leave this until at least
tomorrow night, then empty it, wash it and refill it again. If it looks
clear after that, I may risk some cheap and hardy living creature to see
if it survives. I figure four guppies in an unfiltered 220 litre tank
should be OK as a test. If they survive, I'll consider the cichlids.

>> I have no bad news regarding my last epoxied polystyrene structure. It's
>> been in the tank over a year, fish are fine, plants are growing, the
>> surface gets a bit of algae which the bushynose then promptly scrapes
>> off.
>> I used several layers of epoxy, with sand in the last 2 layers to
>> give it a texture to match my rockwork.

Yeah, I don't think this is normal. I just don't have any explanation. I
gave it two or three coats of epoxy, applied reasonably thickly. I
didn't use sand as we didn't like the look of it. After some
experimenting, I managed to get pretty realistic looking rocks and the
sand just spoilt the appearance.

>> I'd agree with your assessment to proceed slowly but deliberately, and
>> introduce a low cost but sensitive creature to do your final test. When
>> do we get to see pictures?

Well, I have pictures of the construction from the start, so as soon as
I get anywhere near fish I'll put them on a web page. I'm still using a
film camera, so images have to be developed and scanned.

Thanx for the reply. Any further ideas greatly welcome.

--
Alan Silver

[Alan Silver]

In article >, Jim Morcombe
> writes
>I'd be worried about the non-toxic paint.
>
>Just because baby humans can eat the stuff, this doesn't mean fish can
>swim in it and breathe it.

I am hoping that after a few fills and washes, the paint particles will
stop. I think they were where the epoxy was coming off. I don't intend
putting anything living in there as long as there is still stuff coming
off the background.

>It sounds like you need to empty out the tank and let it dry out for a
>couple of days in the sun.
>
>Then attack it thoroughly with Epoxy Paint. Make sure you get plenty
>of the paint in all the cracks and arount the edges.

Trouble is that I can't reach most of the background. The tank is a 24"
cube, so reaching the bottom is quite difficult. Due to all the nooks
and crannies in the background, there is no way I could reach most of it
with epoxy now. I don't think I could get the background out again
either. I really stuck it in well !!

Thanx for the reply. Any more comments appreciated.

--
Alan Silver

[NetMax]

"Alan Silver"
> wrote
in message ...
> [Note - I replied to Jim's post as NetMax's didn't appear on my server.
> Will reply to Jim's words separately]
>
> >> Polystyrene is non-toxic. Properly cured West System's epoxy is
> >> non-toxic. Your paint might have released some particulates, but
it's
> >> probably non-toxic as well.
<snip>

If one of the epoxy layers was not fully cured, then that would explain
the problem. I do not know how that could be resolved. The manufacturer
might have some advice if this is the case. A possibility would be to
add another layer of epoxy with a higher ratio of a slow acting hardener.
I'm not sure if additional air drying might not be a bad idea. I'm not
certain if air or oxygen would speed the curing. I don't think so, but
it wouldn't hurt either.

NetMax

> Thanx for the reply. Any further ideas greatly welcome.
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

[Jim Morcombe]

Air and oxygen don't have much effect on the drying of Epoxy - but heat
does.

Until the tank has dried out, the evaporative effect will cool down the
paint and slow the curing.

The few extra degrees of temperature you get by putting it in the sun seems
to make a big difference to curing time.


If one of the layers of Epoxy didn't cure properly, then it would pick up
enough hardener from the next layer so it would be okay.

The only way the Epoxy could be responsible for your problems is if you had
a dud batch of paint.

I still think slapping on a couple of extra coats should solve any potential
problems - but if you still think the Epoxy is the problem, then maybe you
should throw out the old casn and buy some more.

Jim


NetMax > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Alan Silver"
> > wrote
> in message ...
> > [Note - I replied to Jim's post as NetMax's didn't appear on my server.
> > Will reply to Jim's words separately]
> >
> > >> Polystyrene is non-toxic. Properly cured West System's epoxy is
> > >> non-toxic. Your paint might have released some particulates, but
> it's
> > >> probably non-toxic as well.
> <snip>
>
> If one of the epoxy layers was not fully cured, then that would explain
> the problem. I do not know how that could be resolved. The manufacturer
> might have some advice if this is the case. A possibility would be to
> add another layer of epoxy with a higher ratio of a slow acting hardener.
> I'm not sure if additional air drying might not be a bad idea. I'm not
> certain if air or oxygen would speed the curing. I don't think so, but
> it wouldn't hurt either.
>
> NetMax
>
> > Thanx for the reply. Any further ideas greatly welcome.
> >
> > --
> > Alan Silver
> >
>
>

[Alan Silver]

In article >, Jim Morcombe
> writes
>Air and oxygen don't have much effect on the drying of Epoxy - but heat
>does.
>
>Until the tank has dried out, the evaporative effect will cool down the
>paint and slow the curing.
>
>The few extra degrees of temperature you get by putting it in the sun
>seems to make a big difference to curing time.
>
>
>If one of the layers of Epoxy didn't cure properly, then it would pick
>up enough hardener from the next layer so it would be okay.
>
>The only way the Epoxy could be responsible for your problems is if you
>had a dud batch of paint.
>
>I still think slapping on a couple of extra coats should solve any
>potential problems - but if you still think the Epoxy is the problem,
>then maybe you should throw out the old casn and buy some more.

As far as I can see, the epoxy was cured properly. It was a good few
weeks between applying the epoxy and filling with water. During that
time, the background was in a centrally-heated house. From other
people's experience, I can't believe the epoxy wasn't cured.

Anyway, the water was very milky again this morning. I'm going to leave
it until tonight, then empty and refill. I'll do this a few more times
and see if it settles down. If it keeps turning milky after several
fills, then I'll have to think again.

--
Alan Silver