Setting up new tank - wait for cycling or direct changeover of filter to new tank?

[ck2]

I've got a 10 gallon setup and trying to fishless cycle. It's not doing
anything tho....no nitrites after 1.5 weeks.

I've also got a well established 5 gallon running that I want to shut
down. I'll move everything over to the 10g. (Please, no comments about
how I should setup a >10g tank)

Instead of waiting for the 10g to cycle, can I just move everything over?
The filter is an AQ150. I can't move any of the substrate over since I've
moved to flourite in the new 10g (5g is sand/gravel).

Would moving the filter and as much water as possible over to the 10g be
enough to make an acceptably smooth transition for the fish? ie, would the
filter bacteria die/struggle/decline/whatever from doing this?

.....I've even tried taking one of the sponges out of the AQ150 AND some
gravel in a stocking and putting it in the 10g to help the
cycling....still 0 nitrites after 1.5 weeks. Using Kroger brand
clear ammonia.

Chris

[RedForeman ©®]

"ck2" > wrote in message
> Instead of waiting for the 10g to cycle, can I just move everything over?
> The filter is an AQ150. I can't move any of the substrate over since I've
> moved to flourite in the new 10g (5g is sand/gravel).

Fill the tank with flourite, let it settle, add filter, add some water from
est. tank, and run for a week, clean filter cartridge, and you should be
closer to done than you think.... Moving just the filter, won't cycle your
tank overnight, but it'll speed the process.. you'll probably get the
initial bacteria bloom while your tank changes the ammonia to nitrate, then
when it falls back to 0, you're done..

> Would moving the filter and as much water as possible over to the 10g be
> enough to make an acceptably smooth transition for the fish? ie, would the
> filter bacteria die/struggle/decline/whatever from doing this?

I've done this several times, without using the ammonia, and only had a
slight bacteria bloom, gone in 5 days...

> ....I've even tried taking one of the sponges out of the AQ150 AND some
> gravel in a stocking and putting it in the 10g to help the
> cycling....still 0 nitrites after 1.5 weeks. Using Kroger brand
> clear ammonia.

Aren't you supposed to test for nitrAtes? I could be wrong, it might be
nitrItes....

This is where your method and other methods get blurred... If you use the
ammonia, you may _have to_ wait until it's cycled... If you hadn't used the
ammonia, you could have transfered the filter, most of the water, and let it
run for a day, maybe 2, then it'd be practically done...

Not sure if I've helped or confused the issue.... to me, you might be trying
to blend two methods of cycling, and that may not help, it may just
exasterbate the lenght of time it takes to cycle....

NetMax, where are you????? hahahaaa!!!

--

RedForeman ©®

[Andy Hill]

ck2 > wrote:
>I've got a 10 gallon setup and trying to fishless cycle. It's not doing
>anything tho....no nitrites after 1.5 weeks.
>
>I've also got a well established 5 gallon running that I want to shut
>down. I'll move everything over to the 10g. (Please, no comments about
>how I should setup a >10g tank)
>
>Instead of waiting for the 10g to cycle, can I just move everything over?
>The filter is an AQ150. I can't move any of the substrate over since I've
>moved to flourite in the new 10g (5g is sand/gravel).
>
>Would moving the filter and as much water as possible over to the 10g be
>enough to make an acceptably smooth transition for the fish? ie, would the
>filter bacteria die/struggle/decline/whatever from doing this?
>
>....I've even tried taking one of the sponges out of the AQ150 AND some
>gravel in a stocking and putting it in the 10g to help the
>cycling....still 0 nitrites after 1.5 weeks. Using Kroger brand
>clear ammonia.
>
It should go OK just to move everything over...it's basically just a big water
change. I've done 70%-80% water changes before without disturbing my fish or
the cycle. Biggest thing to water out for is temperature spikes -- the water
temps in the new and old tank should be very similar (and, if they have to be
different, make the new tank a bit warmer).

OTOH, have you tested for ammonia or nitrates? It may be that the gravel /
sponge transplant seeded the new tank well enough that you never had a nitrite
spike.

[ck2]

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 12:38:34 -0700, Andy Hill wrote:

> ck2 > wrote:
>>I've got a 10 gallon setup and trying to fishless cycle. It's not doing
>>anything tho....no nitrites after 1.5 weeks.
>>
>>I've also got a well established 5 gallon running that I want to shut
>>down. I'll move everything over to the 10g. (Please, no comments about
>>how I should setup a >10g tank)
>>
>>Instead of waiting for the 10g to cycle, can I just move everything over?
>>The filter is an AQ150. I can't move any of the substrate over since I've
>>moved to flourite in the new 10g (5g is sand/gravel).
>>
>>Would moving the filter and as much water as possible over to the 10g be
>>enough to make an acceptably smooth transition for the fish? ie, would the
>>filter bacteria die/struggle/decline/whatever from doing this?
>>
>>....I've even tried taking one of the sponges out of the AQ150 AND some
>>gravel in a stocking and putting it in the 10g to help the
>>cycling....still 0 nitrites after 1.5 weeks. Using Kroger brand
>>clear ammonia.
>>
> It should go OK just to move everything over...it's basically just a big water
> change. I've done 70%-80% water changes before without disturbing my fish or
> the cycle. Biggest thing to water out for is temperature spikes -- the water
> temps in the new and old tank should be very similar (and, if they have to be
> different, make the new tank a bit warmer).
>
> OTOH, have you tested for ammonia or nitrates? It may be that the gravel /
> sponge transplant seeded the new tank well enough that you never had a nitrite
> spike.

There's still ammonia, even now. I spiked it up to about 5-6ppm and then
began testing for nitrites the next day. Although, I didn't seed the 10g
with the sponge/gravel until about 3 days into the process. I guess it's
possible, and no, I haven't tested for nitrates yet....didn't even think
to do that since I never saw a nitrite spike...but I'll do a quick test
just to be sure.

Chris

[ck2]

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:36:27 -0500, RedForeman ©® wrote:

> "ck2" > wrote in message
>> Instead of waiting for the 10g to cycle, can I just move everything over?
>> The filter is an AQ150. I can't move any of the substrate over since I've
>> moved to flourite in the new 10g (5g is sand/gravel).
>
> Fill the tank with flourite, let it settle, add filter, add some water from
> est. tank, and run for a week, clean filter cartridge, and you should be
> closer to done than you think.... Moving just the filter, won't cycle your
> tank overnight, but it'll speed the process.. you'll probably get the
> initial bacteria bloom while your tank changes the ammonia to nitrate, then
> when it falls back to 0, you're done..
>
>> Would moving the filter and as much water as possible over to the 10g be
>> enough to make an acceptably smooth transition for the fish? ie, would the
>> filter bacteria die/struggle/decline/whatever from doing this?
>
> I've done this several times, without using the ammonia, and only had a
> slight bacteria bloom, gone in 5 days...
>
>> ....I've even tried taking one of the sponges out of the AQ150 AND some
>> gravel in a stocking and putting it in the 10g to help the
>> cycling....still 0 nitrites after 1.5 weeks. Using Kroger brand
>> clear ammonia.
>
> Aren't you supposed to test for nitrAtes? I could be wrong, it might be
> nitrItes....


Nitrites first...then nitrates.


> This is where your method and other methods get blurred... If you use the
> ammonia, you may _have to_ wait until it's cycled... If you hadn't used the
> ammonia, you could have transfered the filter, most of the water, and let it
> run for a day, maybe 2, then it'd be practically done...


Ya, I realized this. It wouldn't be any big deal though, to do a BIG
water change to get the NH3 down to nada levels and then move things.


> Not sure if I've helped or confused the issue.... to me, you might be
> trying to blend two methods of cycling, and that may not help, it may
> just exasterbate the lenght of time it takes to cycle....

It essentially IS blending the two methods....but can be rectified by
removing the NH3 from the 10g and treating it as a big water change while
moving the filter over at the same time.

....time to get the bucket. :)

Chris

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Setting up new tank - wait for cycling or direct changeover of
>filter to new tank?
>From: ck2
>Date: 12/5/2003 1:20 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: . com>
>
>I've got a 10 gallon setup and trying to fishless cycle. It's not doing
>anything tho....no nitrites after 1.5 weeks.

What are you using to fishless cycle?

[ck2]

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 05:25:14 +0000, TYNK 7 wrote:

>>Subject: Setting up new tank - wait for cycling or direct changeover of
>>filter to new tank?
>>From: ck2
>>Date: 12/5/2003 1:20 PM Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: . com>
>>
>>I've got a 10 gallon setup and trying to fishless cycle. It's not doing
>>anything tho....no nitrites after 1.5 weeks.
>
> What are you using to fishless cycle?

Some Kroger brand clear ammonia. Thing is, it must be a LOT weaker
concentration than most other brands. It took 40-50 ml to get the 10g up
to the ~5ppm NH3 level. Everything I read told me it shouldn't take that
much.
A less scientific rationale is that I can actually stick my nose over the
opening and take a good whiff and NOT be knocked out by the odor. pretty
weak stuff.

Chris

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Setting up new tank - wait for cycling or direct changeover of
>filter to new tank?
>From: ck2
>Date: 12/6/2003 12:34 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: . com>
>
>On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 05:25:14 +0000, TYNK 7 wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Setting up new tank - wait for cycling or direct changeover of
>>>filter to new tank?
>>>From: ck2
>>>Date: 12/5/2003 1:20 PM Central Standard Time
>>>Message-id: . com>
>>>
>>>I've got a 10 gallon setup and trying to fishless cycle. It's not doing
>>>anything tho....no nitrites after 1.5 weeks.
>>
>> What are you using to fishless cycle?
>
>Some Kroger brand clear ammonia. Thing is, it must be a LOT weaker
>concentration than most other brands. It took 40-50 ml to get the 10g up
>to the ~5ppm NH3 level. Everything I read told me it shouldn't take that
>much.
>A less scientific rationale is that I can actually stick my nose over the
>opening and take a good whiff and NOT be knocked out by the odor. pretty
>weak stuff.
>
>Chris

Well that just shouldn't be.
Did you add more or are you going to get a different brand?

[Eric Schreiber]

ck2 > wrote:

>A less scientific rationale is that I can actually stick my nose over the
>opening and take a good whiff and NOT be knocked out by the odor. pretty
>weak stuff.

Less scientific, yes, but a darn good indicator. When I did the
fishless cycling on my tank, I couldn't even take a whiff of the tank
without my eyes watering. It's just possible that I used too much
ammonia.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

[Eric Schreiber]

ck2 > wrote:

>I've also got a well established 5 gallon running that I want to shut
>down. I'll move everything over to the 10g. (Please, no comments about
>how I should setup a >10g tank)

All I want to know is, how do you expect to be able to stop with just
one or two tanks? Surely you need four. At least. Per room.

>Would moving the filter and as much water as possible over to the 10g be
>enough to make an acceptably smooth transition for the fish? ie, would the
>filter bacteria die/struggle/decline/whatever from doing this?

An established filter will go a long way towards improving the initial
cycle of a new tank, as will using water from the existing tank. Try
to keep the temperatures reasonably stable as you move stuff, but the
bacteria should hold up just fine. Of course, you'll need to put in
fish (or continue dosing with ammonia) to ensure that the bacteria
don't starve.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

[ck2]

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 08:20:15 +0000, TYNK 7 wrote:


>>> What are you using to fishless cycle?
>>
>>Some Kroger brand clear ammonia. Thing is, it must be a LOT weaker
>>concentration than most other brands. It took 40-50 ml to get the 10g up
>>to the ~5ppm NH3 level. Everything I read told me it shouldn't take that
>>much.
>>A less scientific rationale is that I can actually stick my nose over the
>>opening and take a good whiff and NOT be knocked out by the odor. pretty
>>weak stuff.
>>
>>Chris
>
> Well that just shouldn't be.
> Did you add more or are you going to get a different brand?

Just using the same stuff. Even tho it's a weaker concentration, now that
I know how much I need to add, I can compensate appropriately.

Chris

[MartinOsirus]

It is no longer necessary to have to endure a long cycling process. Either get
some gravel from an established tank or get some Biospira(made by Marineland)
which is the actual bacteria - to start the tank. Don't bother with using
ammonia.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Setting up new tank - wait for cycling or direct changeover of
>filter to new tank?
>From: (MartinOsirus)
>Date: 12/7/2003 12:49 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>It is no longer necessary to have to endure a long cycling process. Either
>get
>some gravel from an established tank or get some Biospira(made by Marineland)
>which is the actual bacteria - to start the tank. Don't bother with using
>ammonia.
>

Yes, I agree.
However, BioSpira isn't available everywhere.
It's actually hard to find around my area.
Most PetLand chain stores carry it.

[ck2]

>>It is no longer necessary to have to endure a long cycling process. Either
>>get
>>some gravel from an established tank or get some Biospira(made by Marineland)
>>which is the actual bacteria - to start the tank. Don't bother with using
>>ammonia.
>>
>
> Yes, I agree.
> However, BioSpira isn't available everywhere.
> It's actually hard to find around my area.
> Most PetLand chain stores carry it.


Interesting...I haven't heard of this stuff. I've heard of something
else (cycle) or whatever that appears to have mixed results from what I've
read.

There's a local petland here that has a good selection and a nicely
maintained fish section. I'll see if they carry it.

Chris

[MartinOsirus]

>Interesting...I haven't heard of this stuff. I've heard of something
>else (cycle) or whatever that appears to have mixed results from what I've

Of all the so called bacterial starter products - the only one I know that has
the actual bacteria is Biospira. It has to be kept refrigerated. The other
products - like Cycle - tend to be enzymes that encourage the bacteria to grow
- Although Hagen has a new Cycle product - which is supposed to be good. With
Biospira the tank cycles right away - no waiting! It can be ordered on line
from www.fishstoretn.com - although it is better to buy it locally if you can -
it has to be cold pack shipped.

[ck2]

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:41:26 +0000, MartinOsirus wrote:

>>Interesting...I haven't heard of this stuff. I've heard of something
>>else (cycle) or whatever that appears to have mixed results from what I've
>
> Of all the so called bacterial starter products - the only one I know that has
> the actual bacteria is Biospira. It has to be kept refrigerated. The other
> products - like Cycle - tend to be enzymes that encourage the bacteria to grow
> - Although Hagen has a new Cycle product - which is supposed to be good. With
> Biospira the tank cycles right away - no waiting! It can be ordered on line
> from www.fishstoretn.com - although it is better to buy it locally if you can
> it has to be cold pack shipped.

Local Petland has it :D

Gonna pick up an once tomorrow. THANK YOU!!

Chris

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Setting up new tank - wait for cycling or direct changeover of
>filter to new tank?
>From: ck2
>Date: 12/7/2003 12:09 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: . com>
>
>>>It is no longer necessary to have to endure a long cycling process. Either
>>>get
>>>some gravel from an established tank or get some Biospira(made by
>Marineland)
>>>which is the actual bacteria - to start the tank. Don't bother with using
>>>ammonia.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I agree.
>> However, BioSpira isn't available everywhere.
>> It's actually hard to find around my area.
>> Most PetLand chain stores carry it.
>
>
>Interesting...I haven't heard of this stuff. I've heard of something
>else (cycle) or whatever that appears to have mixed results from what I've
>read.
>
>There's a local petland here that has a good selection and a nicely
>maintained fish section. I'll see if they carry it.
>
>Chris

Hi Chris.
The product Cycle has the wrong type of bacteria in it. All the rest of these
bacteria starter products also have the wrong type, however, they are still
being marketed as the right kind. Grr!
BioSpira is the *only* one so far to have the right type.
I'd guess Marineland has a patent on it, but maybe just like a pharmacutical
(sp?) company can only have a period of time to have the sole rights to
it....maybe this will be the case here too. Ihope so, as it will bring down the
cost.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Setting up new tank - wait for cycling or direct changeover of
>filter to new tank?
>From: ck2
>Date: 12/7/2003 9:47 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: . com>
>
>On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:41:26 +0000, MartinOsirus wrote:
>
>>>Interesting...I haven't heard of this stuff. I've heard of something
>>>else (cycle) or whatever that appears to have mixed results from what I've
>>
>> Of all the so called bacterial starter products - the only one I know that
>has
>> the actual bacteria is Biospira. It has to be kept refrigerated. The other
>> products - like Cycle - tend to be enzymes that encourage the bacteria to
>grow
>> - Although Hagen has a new Cycle product - which is supposed to be good.
>With
>> Biospira the tank cycles right away - no waiting! It can be ordered on line
>> from www.fishstoretn.com - although it is better to buy it locally if you
>can
>> it has to be cold pack shipped.
>
>Local Petland has it :D
>
>Gonna pick up an once tomorrow. THANK YOU!!
>
>Chris
>

Way to go!

[ck2]

>>> Of all the so called bacterial starter products - the only one I know that has
>>> the actual bacteria is Biospira. It has to be kept refrigerated. The other
>>> products - like Cycle - tend to be enzymes that encourage the bacteria to grow
>>> - Although Hagen has a new Cycle product - which is supposed to be good. With
>>> Biospira the tank cycles right away - no waiting! It can be ordered on line
>>> from www.fishstoretn.com - although it is better to buy it locally if you can
>>> it has to be cold pack shipped.
>>
>> Local Petland has it :D
>>
>> Gonna pick up an once tomorrow. THANK YOU!!
>
> I think you're just fretting over nothing. Why are you opposed to a
> natural cycle?
>
> Jack

Not opposed at all. Just in a hurry because of the way the two tanks are
in limbo. Going thru the whole cycle thing the first time was a great
experience and I learned a LOT in the process.
But hey, if I can buy 'insta-cycle' in a bag and it actually WORKS, why
not? :)

Chris

[MartinOsirus]

>But hey, if I can buy 'insta-cycle' in a bag and it actually WORKS, why
>not? :)

yup - I just set up 4 new tanks with Biospira and it took 2 days!!

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Setting up new tank - wait for cycling or direct changeover of
>filter to new tank?
>From: High Flight
>Date: 12/8/2003 4:29 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ck2 > says...
>>> Of all the so called bacterial starter products - the only one I know that
>has
>>> the actual bacteria is Biospira. It has to be kept refrigerated. The other
>>> products - like Cycle - tend to be enzymes that encourage the bacteria to
>grow
>>> - Although Hagen has a new Cycle product - which is supposed to be good.
>With
>>> Biospira the tank cycles right away - no waiting! It can be ordered on
>line
>>> from www.fishstoretn.com - although it is better to buy it locally if you
>can
>>> it has to be cold pack shipped.
>>
>> Local Petland has it :D
>>
>> Gonna pick up an once tomorrow. THANK YOU!!
>
>I think you're just fretting over nothing. Why are you opposed to a
>natural cycle?
>
>

Why would you rather put the fish through the stress, or even possible death
from cycling a tank, when you could just add some BioSpira and be ready to go
in 24 hour (and no fishharmed in the process)???

[MartinOsirus]

>Why would you rather put the fish through the stress, or even possible death
>from cycling a tank, when you could just add some BioSpira and be ready to go
>in 24 hour (and no fishharmed in the process)???

Exactly correct ! Plus avoid stress on the fishkeeper!! I just used it on 4
small tanks and it works perfectly! - the only way to go !!

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Setting up new tank - wait for cycling or direct changeover of
>filter to new tank?
>From: (MartinOsirus)
>Date: 12/10/2003 10:00 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Why would you rather put the fish through the stress, or even possible death
>>from cycling a tank, when you could just add some BioSpira and be ready to
>go
>>in 24 hour (and no fishharmed in the process)???
>
>Exactly correct ! Plus avoid stress on the fishkeeper!! I just used it on 4
>small tanks and it works perfectly! - the only way to go !!
>

I know! I just want to slap my forehead and say "Duh!"