Acid Fall, HELP!

[John]

Hi Guys... I can't figure this one out.

I have 4 aquariums... biweekly, 15% water change (including gravel vac
each time). Ph has been stable for over 18 months at 7.2 but now all
four aquariums have dropped off the bottom of the acid scale. I did a
50% water change and added buffit to bring back to 7.0 (severe gravel
vac during water change) and within 24 hours the acid level has again
dropped off the bottom of the scale.

I was using a mix of tap and bottled water, tap to top off (usually 3
gals evaporation per week), 5 - 7 gals bottled to change,
approximately every two weeks. sometimes every weekend, sometimes skip
a weekend.

Gravel is CLEAN... I mean really clean, it is a mixture of gravel and
sand, and I am using undergravel with power head in one tank, and
undergravel with airstones in others...


Specifics per 55 gal tanks:
Tank 1:
Ph <6
Amonia >3
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
Gh Can't check
Kh Can't check (I lost instruction set for Aquarium Pharmaceutical
master test kit)
Fluval 303 canister filter
55 gal, undergravel with two air lift tubes...
Fish:
1 Pleco 10 inch
2 Angels 5 in ea
3 Corry's 1.5 in
6 Sunset Plattys (wife bought em not me) 1.5 in ea
4 ottos 1 in
1 4 inch Gold gourami (dying as we speak)
6 Cardinals 1 in ea

so about 53 inches of fish if I double the size of the Pl*co

Note: this tank seems more stable... I can usually keep the amonia
down for longer with this tank, and the ph will stabilize at 7.2 for
about 3 days then start dropping again...

Note, gravel-sand mix does 'solidify' over time, but I break it up
every 4 weeks.

Tank 2:
Ph <6
Amonia >3
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
Gh see above
Kh see above
Hot Pro Magnum filter, with sponge prefilter added to intake tube ( I
just found out that this filter is over rated for a 55 as marked on
the box, but actually only handles about 30 gals.)
Supreme 600gph Power Filter (supposedly good for up to 150 gal tank, 6
x 12 box filter with fluval bio rings and filter floss)
Undergravel with one power head and one Airlift tube on opposite ends
of the tank.

Fish:
3 corys 1.5 inch
6 Otto's 1.25 inch
3 Tiger Barbs 1.25 inch
1 Whiptail Pl*co 1 inch
2 harlequin rasboras .5 inch
2 Tetra's can't remember name of 1.25 inch
2 (4 inch) Gouramis, not quite fullly grown
1 Chinese Algae Eater (yeah, right, eats anything BUT) 6 inch

so, currenlty less than 35 inches of fish in a 55 gal tank
(I lost my 4 Black veil angels during this problem over the last few
weeks)

Note: I know the amonia is off the chart... I have used bottles of
Amquel + to bring it down, but it doesn't stay down, even with an
emergency 50% water change and extra heavy gravel vacuming.
I am using a salicylate type test not a nesslers.

I can't figure out what is wrong here. Both the 55 gal tanks are
lightly planted.. adding plants every other week or so, a few at a
time (on pay days). upping the water changes only helps for a day at
the most... this is really driving me nuts. all my tanks were fine
for 18 months or so... then the problem just got beyond control. I
think it may have been the ro water I bought at the store, used for 3
different water changes, but that was only a total of about 30 gals in
each tank over the space of about 6 weeks. I did NOT test this RO
water, and I know I should have... but that was 3 months ago... am now
only using tap (well water) which oringally tested hard with high
ph... adding that should be bringing the ph back to normal...

I give up guys. Could the undergravel filters have blown? I have
read off and on about that possibillity. Something is seriously
raising the amonia without a corresponding rise in nitrites. Usually
that means rotting stuff... but with the aggressive vacuming I can't
figure what might still be rotting...

[Vicky & John Taylor-Hood]

I was under the (possibly erroneous) impression that Amquel simply
neutralised the effects of Ammonia, but did nothing to eliminate it
from the water. Doesn't it do some weird chemical thingy that
basically serves to stop the immediate toxicity of ammonia, but leaves
the stuff in the water and therefore the ammonia continues to register
high on the tests?

Therefore if you change the chemical composition of the ammonia, you
are depriving the good bacteria of their food and therefore disrupting
the cycle. The nitrites won't go up because the nitrifying bacteria is
not getting enough nourishment to cause colony growth.

Not sure how this relates to your ph problem, though!

Good Luck,
Vicky

[John]

Yes, amquel does change the type of amonia to acutally amonium...
which, depending on your test kit will still show up.

Most test kits (yellow regent, nessler) will tell you that you are
high even though you are not.

But I am using a Silicylate style kit specifically recommneded by
Kordon (the makers of Amquel) to be used when using amquel.

The tank is acting as if there is still something rotting in it. But
I have eliminated all the rotting stuff I can find... I have been
forced to add chemical filtration now to lower the amonia, which I
don't like having to do and it is only a short term solution.

The only thing I can figure is that my well water may have changed
composition due to fall and all the rotting leaves and rainfall around
here... something is definately raising the amonia and lowering the
ph.

I guess I need to have my well water tested again. It's gotten to the
point that I don't trust my test kits anymore.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:33:58 GMT, Vicky & John Taylor-Hood
> wrote:

>I was under the (possibly erroneous) impression that Amquel simply
>neutralised the effects of Ammonia, but did nothing to eliminate it
>from the water. Doesn't it do some weird chemical thingy that
>basically serves to stop the immediate toxicity of ammonia, but leaves
>the stuff in the water and therefore the ammonia continues to register
>high on the tests?
>
>Therefore if you change the chemical composition of the ammonia, you
>are depriving the good bacteria of their food and therefore disrupting
>the cycle. The nitrites won't go up because the nitrifying bacteria is
>not getting enough nourishment to cause colony growth.
>
>Not sure how this relates to your ph problem, though!
>
>Good Luck,
>Vicky
>

[NetMax]

"John" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Guys... I can't figure this one out.
>
> I have 4 aquariums... biweekly, 15% water change (including gravel vac
> each time). Ph has been stable for over 18 months at 7.2 but now all
> four aquariums have dropped off the bottom of the acid scale. I did a
> 50% water change and added buffit to bring back to 7.0 (severe gravel
> vac during water change) and within 24 hours the acid level has again
> dropped off the bottom of the scale.
>
> I was using a mix of tap and bottled water, tap to top off (usually 3
> gals evaporation per week), 5 - 7 gals bottled to change,
> approximately every two weeks. sometimes every weekend, sometimes skip
> a weekend.
>
> Gravel is CLEAN... I mean really clean, it is a mixture of gravel and
> sand, and I am using undergravel with power head in one tank, and
> undergravel with airstones in others...
>
>
> Specifics per 55 gal tanks:
> Tank 1:
> Ph <6
> Amonia >3
> Nitrites 0
> Nitrates 0
> Gh Can't check
> Kh Can't check (I lost instruction set for Aquarium Pharmaceutical
> master test kit)
<snip>
> Tank 2:
> Ph <6
> Amonia >3
> Nitrites 0
> Nitrates 0
> Gh see above
> Kh see above
<snip>
> I can't figure out what is wrong here. Both the 55 gal tanks are
> lightly planted.. adding plants every other week or so, a few at a
> time (on pay days). upping the water changes only helps for a day at
> the most... this is really driving me nuts. all my tanks were fine
> for 18 months or so... then the problem just got beyond control. I
> think it may have been the ro water I bought at the store, used for 3
> different water changes, but that was only a total of about 30 gals in
> each tank over the space of about 6 weeks. I did NOT test this RO
> water, and I know I should have... but that was 3 months ago... am now
> only using tap (well water) which oringally tested hard with high
> ph... adding that should be bringing the ph back to normal...
>
> I give up guys. Could the undergravel filters have blown? I have
> read off and on about that possibillity. Something is seriously
> raising the amonia without a corresponding rise in nitrites. Usually
> that means rotting stuff... but with the aggressive vacuming I can't
> figure what might still be rotting...

I think the NH4 readings are just a symptom of your problem. At around
6.5pH, nitrosomonas are inhibited (no nitrite production), and at around
6.0pH nitrobacter are inhibited (no nitrate production), so without the
nitrifying bacteria, your ammonia readings will go through the roof.
Fortunately, ammonia (NH3) is non-toxic ammonium ions (NH4) at these low
pH levels, so your fish might be perfectly fine (other than the pH levels
affecting their sensitivities). The trick here will be to increase the
pH slowly, and control the NH4 to NH3 conversion from killing your fish
(think Ammo-lock or something similar).

A very important parameter missing is your kH. When your kH or buffer is
low, your water becomes prone to pH crashes. From the Aquarium
Pharmaceutical's directions: 5ml of water, add a drop of kH reagent and
shake. Continue adding drops until the reagent changes from blue to
yellow. The total number of drops needed indicates 1dkH each. I suspect
your kH is under 3dkH.

Finding root cause will be interesting. RO water AFAIK has no carbonates
(zero kH), so it certainly will not help you. Bottled water varies by
batches (depending on where in the world it came from), and well-water
varies by season. I suspect your recipe of well/bottled/RO already came
very close to a very low kH value (and soft water) and when the
carbonates of one of those three went lower, you ate your safety margin
and are now stuck in pH crash mode. In this mode, it takes very little
to push the pH down. I use crushed coral to buffer my water. Baking
soda will temporarily do the same, but my understanding is that it's
effects do not last long.

Just my opinion, but I'm just a single voice in a big newsgroup ;~)
NetMax

[Bob]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
around
> 6.5pH, nitrosomonas are inhibited (no nitrite production), and at around
> 6.0pH nitrobacter are inhibited (no nitrate production), so without the
> nitrifying bacteria, your ammonia readings will go through the roof.


Hey, interesting comments.

Can you point to where you got this info from?
I am concerned because I keep my discus tank around ph 6 and don't want to
have ammonia problems...
I haven't had any so far, so maybe there is some other bacteria at work?

thanks,

Bob

[coelacanth]

Occham's razor suggests that you do two things first
(in this order): 1. Check that your test kit is accurate
and 2. Test your tapwater. My guess would be your
test kit is okay, but your city may be doing something
strange to your water supply.

-coelacanth

"John" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Guys... I can't figure this one out.
>
> I have 4 aquariums... biweekly, 15% water change (including gravel vac
> each time). Ph has been stable for over 18 months at 7.2 but now all
> four aquariums have dropped off the bottom of the acid scale. I did a
> 50% water change and added buffit to bring back to 7.0 (severe gravel
> vac during water change) and within 24 hours the acid level has again
> dropped off the bottom of the scale.
>
> I was using a mix of tap and bottled water, tap to top off (usually 3
> gals evaporation per week), 5 - 7 gals bottled to change,
> approximately every two weeks. sometimes every weekend, sometimes skip
> a weekend.
>
> Gravel is CLEAN... I mean really clean, it is a mixture of gravel and
> sand, and I am using undergravel with power head in one tank, and
> undergravel with airstones in others...
>
>
> Specifics per 55 gal tanks:
> Tank 1:
> Ph <6
> Amonia >3
> Nitrites 0
> Nitrates 0
> Gh Can't check
> Kh Can't check (I lost instruction set for Aquarium Pharmaceutical
> master test kit)
> Fluval 303 canister filter
> 55 gal, undergravel with two air lift tubes...
> Fish:
> 1 Pleco 10 inch
> 2 Angels 5 in ea
> 3 Corry's 1.5 in
> 6 Sunset Plattys (wife bought em not me) 1.5 in ea
> 4 ottos 1 in
> 1 4 inch Gold gourami (dying as we speak)
> 6 Cardinals 1 in ea
>
> so about 53 inches of fish if I double the size of the Pl*co
>
> Note: this tank seems more stable... I can usually keep the amonia
> down for longer with this tank, and the ph will stabilize at 7.2 for
> about 3 days then start dropping again...
>
> Note, gravel-sand mix does 'solidify' over time, but I break it up
> every 4 weeks.
>
> Tank 2:
> Ph <6
> Amonia >3
> Nitrites 0
> Nitrates 0
> Gh see above
> Kh see above
> Hot Pro Magnum filter, with sponge prefilter added to intake tube ( I
> just found out that this filter is over rated for a 55 as marked on
> the box, but actually only handles about 30 gals.)
> Supreme 600gph Power Filter (supposedly good for up to 150 gal tank, 6
> x 12 box filter with fluval bio rings and filter floss)
> Undergravel with one power head and one Airlift tube on opposite ends
> of the tank.
>
> Fish:
> 3 corys 1.5 inch
> 6 Otto's 1.25 inch
> 3 Tiger Barbs 1.25 inch
> 1 Whiptail Pl*co 1 inch
> 2 harlequin rasboras .5 inch
> 2 Tetra's can't remember name of 1.25 inch
> 2 (4 inch) Gouramis, not quite fullly grown
> 1 Chinese Algae Eater (yeah, right, eats anything BUT) 6 inch
>
> so, currenlty less than 35 inches of fish in a 55 gal tank
> (I lost my 4 Black veil angels during this problem over the last few
> weeks)
>
> Note: I know the amonia is off the chart... I have used bottles of
> Amquel + to bring it down, but it doesn't stay down, even with an
> emergency 50% water change and extra heavy gravel vacuming.
> I am using a salicylate type test not a nesslers.
>
> I can't figure out what is wrong here. Both the 55 gal tanks are
> lightly planted.. adding plants every other week or so, a few at a
> time (on pay days). upping the water changes only helps for a day at
> the most... this is really driving me nuts. all my tanks were fine
> for 18 months or so... then the problem just got beyond control. I
> think it may have been the ro water I bought at the store, used for 3
> different water changes, but that was only a total of about 30 gals in
> each tank over the space of about 6 weeks. I did NOT test this RO
> water, and I know I should have... but that was 3 months ago... am now
> only using tap (well water) which oringally tested hard with high
> ph... adding that should be bringing the ph back to normal...
>
> I give up guys. Could the undergravel filters have blown? I have
> read off and on about that possibillity. Something is seriously
> raising the amonia without a corresponding rise in nitrites. Usually
> that means rotting stuff... but with the aggressive vacuming I can't
> figure what might still be rotting...

[Marksfish]

> Hey, interesting comments.
>
> Can you point to where you got this info from?
> I am concerned because I keep my discus tank around ph 6 and don't want to
> have ammonia problems...
> I haven't had any so far, so maybe there is some other bacteria at work?
>
> thanks,
>
> Bob
>
I can't remember where I have seen it, but I have on many occasions, mainly
in the fishkeeping magazines. The lower the pH, the less active the bacteria
become as ammonia becomes less toxic. At a pH of 6, the bacteria are on the
verge of going into "hibernation", anything below this and they will not
function. The plus side of this is that the ammonia will not have an effect
on the fish, hence when fish (discus in particular) are transported
worldwide the water they start off in is about 6.5 and they can arrive at 4
with no effects. The difficult part is raising the pH and getting the
bacteria to "catch up" so that it doesn't overwhelm them.

Regards

Mark

[NetMax]

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> around
> > 6.5pH, nitrosomonas are inhibited (no nitrite production), and at
around
> > 6.0pH nitrobacter are inhibited (no nitrate production), so without
the
> > nitrifying bacteria, your ammonia readings will go through the roof.
>
>
> Hey, interesting comments.
>
> Can you point to where you got this info from?

Certainly :o)
http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

To summarize the papers:
# reminder #
ammonia-> nitrosomonas =>nitrites -> nitrobacter => nitrates

optimum growth: 77-86F
growth decreases by 50% @ 64F
growth decreased by 75% @ 46-50F
no activity at 39F
death at <32F or >120F
nitrobacter (makes nitrates) less tolerant of low temperatures
nitrobacter growth, doubles every 13 hours (very slow!)
nitrosomonas (makes nitrites out of ammonia) growth, doubles every 7
hours (slow!)
nitrobacter optimum pH 7.3-7.5 (african's, look out), inhibited at 6.0pH
nitrosomonas optimum pH 7.8-8.0, inhibited at 6.5pH
maximum nitrification rates exist when dissolved oxygen levels exceed 80%
saturation, inhibited at 2.0 mg/l (ppm) or less
nitrobacter more strongly affected by low dissolved oxygen than
nitrosomonas
they require micronutrients (not found in RO, distilled or deionised
water), most common is phosphorus
nitrobacter cannot oxidize nitrite to nitrate in the absence of
phosphates
nitrifying bacteria are photosensitive (bad), esp. to blue & UV light
while suspended in the water column
chlorine & chloramines kill nitrifying bacteria

hth
NetMax

> I am concerned because I keep my discus tank around ph 6 and don't want
to
> have ammonia problems...
> I haven't had any so far, so maybe there is some other bacteria at
work?
>
> thanks,
>
> Bob
>
>

[Len]

You should eally check the KH and Gh. Soft water often leads to drop in
ph. I sometimes have a problem keeping the ph near neutral and have
found that adding some kH plus (sera brand product) helps to keep the ph
stable.

John wrote:
> Hi Guys... I can't figure this one out.
>
> I have 4 aquariums... biweekly, 15% water change (including gravel vac
> each time). Ph has been stable for over 18 months at 7.2 but now all
> four aquariums have dropped off the bottom of the acid scale. I did a
> 50% water change and added buffit to bring back to 7.0 (severe gravel
> vac during water change) and within 24 hours the acid level has again
> dropped off the bottom of the scale.
>
> I was using a mix of tap and bottled water, tap to top off (usually 3
> gals evaporation per week), 5 - 7 gals bottled to change,
> approximately every two weeks. sometimes every weekend, sometimes skip
> a weekend.
>
> Gravel is CLEAN... I mean really clean, it is a mixture of gravel and
> sand, and I am using undergravel with power head in one tank, and
> undergravel with airstones in others...
>
>
> Specifics per 55 gal tanks:
> Tank 1:
> Ph <6
> Amonia >3
> Nitrites 0
> Nitrates 0
> Gh Can't check
> Kh Can't check (I lost instruction set for Aquarium Pharmaceutical
> master test kit)
> Fluval 303 canister filter
> 55 gal, undergravel with two air lift tubes...
> Fish:
> 1 Pleco 10 inch
> 2 Angels 5 in ea
> 3 Corry's 1.5 in
> 6 Sunset Plattys (wife bought em not me) 1.5 in ea
> 4 ottos 1 in
> 1 4 inch Gold gourami (dying as we speak)
> 6 Cardinals 1 in ea
>
> so about 53 inches of fish if I double the size of the Pl*co
>
> Note: this tank seems more stable... I can usually keep the amonia
> down for longer with this tank, and the ph will stabilize at 7.2 for
> about 3 days then start dropping again...
>
> Note, gravel-sand mix does 'solidify' over time, but I break it up
> every 4 weeks.
>
> Tank 2:
> Ph <6
> Amonia >3
> Nitrites 0
> Nitrates 0
> Gh see above
> Kh see above
> Hot Pro Magnum filter, with sponge prefilter added to intake tube ( I
> just found out that this filter is over rated for a 55 as marked on
> the box, but actually only handles about 30 gals.)
> Supreme 600gph Power Filter (supposedly good for up to 150 gal tank, 6
> x 12 box filter with fluval bio rings and filter floss)
> Undergravel with one power head and one Airlift tube on opposite ends
> of the tank.
>
> Fish:
> 3 corys 1.5 inch
> 6 Otto's 1.25 inch
> 3 Tiger Barbs 1.25 inch
> 1 Whiptail Pl*co 1 inch
> 2 harlequin rasboras .5 inch
> 2 Tetra's can't remember name of 1.25 inch
> 2 (4 inch) Gouramis, not quite fullly grown
> 1 Chinese Algae Eater (yeah, right, eats anything BUT) 6 inch
>
> so, currenlty less than 35 inches of fish in a 55 gal tank
> (I lost my 4 Black veil angels during this problem over the last few
> weeks)
>
> Note: I know the amonia is off the chart... I have used bottles of
> Amquel + to bring it down, but it doesn't stay down, even with an
> emergency 50% water change and extra heavy gravel vacuming.
> I am using a salicylate type test not a nesslers.
>
> I can't figure out what is wrong here. Both the 55 gal tanks are
> lightly planted.. adding plants every other week or so, a few at a
> time (on pay days). upping the water changes only helps for a day at
> the most... this is really driving me nuts. all my tanks were fine
> for 18 months or so... then the problem just got beyond control. I
> think it may have been the ro water I bought at the store, used for 3
> different water changes, but that was only a total of about 30 gals in
> each tank over the space of about 6 weeks. I did NOT test this RO
> water, and I know I should have... but that was 3 months ago... am now
> only using tap (well water) which oringally tested hard with high
> ph... adding that should be bringing the ph back to normal...
>
> I give up guys. Could the undergravel filters have blown? I have
> read off and on about that possibillity. Something is seriously
> raising the amonia without a corresponding rise in nitrites. Usually
> that means rotting stuff... but with the aggressive vacuming I can't
> figure what might still be rotting...

[John]

Thanks Guys... Turns out that my normally hard WELL water is now at 3
- 4 dKh...when it was, all summer long, at over 18... then when I
added bottled RO, I apparently dropped it to less than 1 which
resulted in the acid fall...

Thank you netmax! for the instructions for my test kit... I had
requested a new set from Aquarium Phams website, but they have not yet
responded to me on that request, even though they have a special web
form for just that purpose... However, to be fair to them, I did not
get the message sent in to them until Friday afternoon so they
probably did not have time to respond.

Anyway... since I have done 1 50% water change when I noticed the
problem and then 3 25% daily since, I have brought the Kh back up to 4
and slowly raising the PH to 7.0.

Geeze... no problems for over 18 months.... then bang. But we have
been getting a LOT of rain in the last 2 months... more than double
normal rainfall and I guess that the water just did not have enough
time to sit and disolve solids before it was pumped out of my Well...

I will be paying much closer attention to my well water from now on!

Tank 1 is now fine, but Tank 2 is further from the water supply and I
only have one 5 gallon bucket... takes a long time to fill and change
water from that tank. Tank 1 is within reach of my Python no-spill
system.

Geeze... I am glad that I was starting to run more tests since
creating that DIY hood or I would not have noticed the problem until
more of my fish died. The Angels all died within about 24 hours of me
finding the problem with the acid fall.

So far, only 4 losses, all Double Black Veil Angels which seem to be a
weaker variety of Angel and all lost from Tank 2.

A little ich now in Tank 2, and I suspect that I will probably lose a
few more. before all med treatments are done.
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 14:40:04 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>
>"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> around
>> > 6.5pH, nitrosomonas are inhibited (no nitrite production), and at
>around
>> > 6.0pH nitrobacter are inhibited (no nitrate production), so without
>the
>> > nitrifying bacteria, your ammonia readings will go through the roof.
>>
>>
>> Hey, interesting comments.
>>
>> Can you point to where you got this info from?
>
>Certainly :o)
>http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html
>
>To summarize the papers:
># reminder #
> ammonia-> nitrosomonas =>nitrites -> nitrobacter => nitrates
>
>optimum growth: 77-86F
>growth decreases by 50% @ 64F
>growth decreased by 75% @ 46-50F
>no activity at 39F
>death at <32F or >120F
>nitrobacter (makes nitrates) less tolerant of low temperatures
>nitrobacter growth, doubles every 13 hours (very slow!)
>nitrosomonas (makes nitrites out of ammonia) growth, doubles every 7
>hours (slow!)
>nitrobacter optimum pH 7.3-7.5 (african's, look out), inhibited at 6.0pH
>nitrosomonas optimum pH 7.8-8.0, inhibited at 6.5pH
>maximum nitrification rates exist when dissolved oxygen levels exceed 80%
>saturation, inhibited at 2.0 mg/l (ppm) or less
>nitrobacter more strongly affected by low dissolved oxygen than
>nitrosomonas
>they require micronutrients (not found in RO, distilled or deionised
>water), most common is phosphorus
>nitrobacter cannot oxidize nitrite to nitrate in the absence of
>phosphates
>nitrifying bacteria are photosensitive (bad), esp. to blue & UV light
>while suspended in the water column
>chlorine & chloramines kill nitrifying bacteria
>
>hth
>NetMax
>
>> I am concerned because I keep my discus tank around ph 6 and don't want
>to
>> have ammonia problems...
>> I haven't had any so far, so maybe there is some other bacteria at
>work?
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>

[John]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:54:29 -0500, Len > wrote:

>You should eally check the KH and Gh. Soft water often leads to drop in
>ph. I sometimes have a problem keeping the ph near neutral and have
>found that adding some kH plus (sera brand product) helps to keep the ph
>stable.
>
> I have 4 aquariums... biweekly, 15% water change (including gravel vac
>> each time). Ph has been stable for over 18 months at 7.2 but now all
>> four aquariums have dropped off the bottom of the acid scale. I did a
>> 50% water change and added buffit to bring back to 7.0 (severe gravel
>> vac during water change) and within 24 hours the acid level has again
>> dropped off the bottom of the scale.

I will definately be ordering something from That Fish Place to help
prevent this in the future... shoot, I was worried because my well
water was way too hard, even for an African Cichlid. So much so that
I was using peat to soften down to 6-8 dKh before adding to tanks. I
was used to having to run the water through one filtration of peat,
letting it sit for one day and using it since after testing it each
time it was ALWAYS the same hardness and always took the same amount
of softening... but now it is way lower due to increased water table
and the softening should not have been done, definately not without
testing the resulting water...

I just got too complacent... first mistake in a long time with my
Fish... I was sooo proud... was breeding the Double Black Veil Angels
and selling the fry after growout to a local store for store credit
used to upgrade filters, buy food or plants etc... now I have lost
both breeding pairs.

[David J. Braunegg]

If what you say is true about the pH levels needed for hte bacteria,
then what do you do if you want to keep fish that like acidic water?
For example, I've seen reference to Cardinals (or was it Neons) liking
water in the 4.0-6.0 range.

Dave


NetMax wrote:
> I think the NH4 readings are just a symptom of your problem. At around
> 6.5pH, nitrosomonas are inhibited (no nitrite production), and at around
> 6.0pH nitrobacter are inhibited (no nitrate production), so without the
> nitrifying bacteria, your ammonia readings will go through the roof.
> Fortunately, ammonia (NH3) is non-toxic ammonium ions (NH4) at these low
> pH levels, so your fish might be perfectly fine (other than the pH levels
> affecting their sensitivities). The trick here will be to increase the
> pH slowly, and control the NH4 to NH3 conversion from killing your fish
> (think Ammo-lock or something similar).

[NetMax]

With my water conditions, (well-water and high pH city-water), I have
very little experience with extreme acidic environments. My supposition
would be that the ammonium ion load would be divided up to plant life and
any species of bacteria which could process it (however efficiently or
not), and leftovers would be tolerated (to a point) by the tank's
inhabitants. Acidic conditions are usually associated with lots of
organic matter, which helps cause the acidity and promotes growth of
flora which process any extra 'fertilizer' around. Moderately acidic
water, with fish, and without flora, might not be a sustainable
combination which exists in nature, so making it work in an aquarium
might require extra attention to parameters (to avoid build-up of DOCs &
other compounds). However, this is only my hypothesis.

NetMax

"David J. Braunegg" > wrote in message
...
> If what you say is true about the pH levels needed for hte bacteria,
> then what do you do if you want to keep fish that like acidic water?
> For example, I've seen reference to Cardinals (or was it Neons) liking
> water in the 4.0-6.0 range.
>
> Dave
>
>
> NetMax wrote:
> > I think the NH4 readings are just a symptom of your problem. At
around
> > 6.5pH, nitrosomonas are inhibited (no nitrite production), and at
around
> > 6.0pH nitrobacter are inhibited (no nitrate production), so without
the
> > nitrifying bacteria, your ammonia readings will go through the roof.
> > Fortunately, ammonia (NH3) is non-toxic ammonium ions (NH4) at these
low
> > pH levels, so your fish might be perfectly fine (other than the pH
levels
> > affecting their sensitivities). The trick here will be to increase
the
> > pH slowly, and control the NH4 to NH3 conversion from killing your
fish
> > (think Ammo-lock or something similar).