Ammonia and water treatment question

[Eric Schreiber]

I lack the chemistry knowledge to figure this out, so I'll ask you
experts :)

I'm using an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals fresh water test kit, the kind
that uses test tubes and drops of chemicals.

When I test my water straight out of the tap, it shows very little,
almost no, ammonia reaction.

After I treat my water with Tetra Aqua "AquaSafe", and test again, I
get much higher ammonia readings.

Is this a false positive that I don't need to worry about, or is this
really reading bad ammonia? Is this common to all water treatment
chemicals?

I'm concerned because I've set up a small (1 gallon) temporary
quarantine tank for a new crowntail betta, and right out of the gate,
before I even put the fish in, I'm getting unhealthy readings.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

[Andrew Roberts]

Eric Schreiber wrote:

> When I test my water straight out of the tap, it shows very little,
> almost no, ammonia reaction.

Do you know if your tap water contains chloramines? There is ammonia
present in this compound.

> After I treat my water with Tetra Aqua "AquaSafe", and test again, I
> get much higher ammonia readings.
>
> Is this a false positive that I don't need to worry about, or is this
> really reading bad ammonia? Is this common to all water treatment
> chemicals?

I can't remember if Aquasafe deals with chloramines effectively or not.
If your conditioning product deals exclusively with chlorine, it will
"free up" the ammonia in the water, leading to elevated measurements.

A false-positive test is certainly possible. I use Seachem Prime for my
water prep, and it warns about this on the label.

--Andrew

[Eric Schreiber]

Andrew Roberts > wrote:

>Do you know if your tap water contains chloramines? There is ammonia
>present in this compound.

Almost certainly. The water is city supplied, from wells, and they do
add chlorine.

>I can't remember if Aquasafe deals with chloramines effectively or not.

According to the label it does. I don't know about 'effectively', but
since it's the second item in the list of what it neutralizes, it
seems likely.

>If your conditioning product deals exclusively with chlorine, it will
>"free up" the ammonia in the water, leading to elevated measurements.

Leading, then, in a brand new tank, potentially dangerous levels until
cycling kicks in? Maybe I'd best steal the water from my established
tank where the ammonia levels are zero.


>A false-positive test is certainly possible. I use Seachem Prime for my
>water prep, and it warns about this on the label.

I've got a sample bottle of some other product, name escapes me. I may
do some testing with it later today.

Thanks.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

[Andrew Roberts]

Eric Schreiber wrote:

> Andrew Roberts > wrote:
>
>
>>Do you know if your tap water contains chloramines? There is ammonia
>>present in this compound.
>
>
> Almost certainly. The water is city supplied, from wells, and they do
> add chlorine.
>
>
>>I can't remember if Aquasafe deals with chloramines effectively or not.
>
>
> According to the label it does. I don't know about 'effectively', but
> since it's the second item in the list of what it neutralizes, it
> seems likely.

If it is neutralizing the chloramine, then I think what you are seeing
is a false-positive with your test kit. You would be prudent to test
the other product to see if you get similar readings.

[JR]

If your tap water has chlorine and chloramines and you neutralize them with
sodium thiosulfate the general chlorine remover in a lot of products, you
unbind the ammonia in the chloramines. You do not get a false positive for
ammonia
you actually have more ammonia present in the water than you started with.
That's
why the test kits says you have more ammonia. And also why some water
conditioners
have some type of ammonia converter that renders ammonia no toxic. hth,



JR,

[Eric Schreiber]

"JR" > wrote:

>If your tap water has chlorine and chloramines and you neutralize them with
>sodium thiosulfate the general chlorine remover in a lot of products, you
>unbind the ammonia in the chloramines. You do not get a false positive for
>ammonia you actually have more ammonia present in the water than you started
>with.

I was afraid of that. This sort of makes using products with that
chemical problematic for setting up new short-term tanks. In a
one-gallon betta tank, for example, I can easily keep ahead of the
ammonia that the fish is producing, unless the water changes
themselves are introducing ammonia.

>And also why some water conditioners have some type of ammonia converter
>that renders ammonia no toxic.

Thanks, that helps a lot. You wouldn't happen to know a brand name for
a water treatment with an ammonia converter, would you?

For the short term, I've put a bag of ammo-chips in the tank, to help
bring the ammonia down some, and I'll be using water from an
established tank to do the water changes - no ammonia in it, and some
of the beneficial bacteria will hopefully come along for the ride.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

[JR]

Seachem Prime makes claims that it will save the day.

http://www.seachem.com/en_products/product_pages/043_prime.html



JR,

[Harry Muscle]

"Eric Schreiber" > wrote in message
...
> "JR" > wrote:
>
> >If your tap water has chlorine and chloramines and you neutralize them
with
> >sodium thiosulfate the general chlorine remover in a lot of products, you
> >unbind the ammonia in the chloramines. You do not get a false positive
for
> >ammonia you actually have more ammonia present in the water than you
started
> >with.
>
> I was afraid of that. This sort of makes using products with that
> chemical problematic for setting up new short-term tanks. In a
> one-gallon betta tank, for example, I can easily keep ahead of the
> ammonia that the fish is producing, unless the water changes
> themselves are introducing ammonia.
>
> >And also why some water conditioners have some type of ammonia converter
> >that renders ammonia no toxic.
>
> Thanks, that helps a lot. You wouldn't happen to know a brand name for
> a water treatment with an ammonia converter, would you?
>
> For the short term, I've put a bag of ammo-chips in the tank, to help
> bring the ammonia down some, and I'll be using water from an
> established tank to do the water changes - no ammonia in it, and some
> of the beneficial bacteria will hopefully come along for the ride.
>
>
> --
> www.ericschreiber.com

Check this site out:

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm

It's a nice summary of what to use when.

Harry




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[NetMax]

"Eric Schreiber" > wrote in message
...
> I lack the chemistry knowledge to figure this out, so I'll ask you
> experts :)
>
> I'm using an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals fresh water test kit, the kind
> that uses test tubes and drops of chemicals.
>
> When I test my water straight out of the tap, it shows very little,
> almost no, ammonia reaction.
>
> After I treat my water with Tetra Aqua "AquaSafe", and test again, I
> get much higher ammonia readings.
>
> Is this a false positive that I don't need to worry about, or is this
> really reading bad ammonia? Is this common to all water treatment
> chemicals?
>
> I'm concerned because I've set up a small (1 gallon) temporary
> quarantine tank for a new crowntail betta, and right out of the gate,
> before I even put the fish in, I'm getting unhealthy readings.
>
> --
> www.ericschreiber.com

I think what is happening is that you have unbound the NH3 out of the
chloramines and then the de-chlor converts to NH4 (non-toxic) and your
test kit reads the total of the NH3 and NH4, but I'm no expert, just
something to verify.

NetMax

[Andrew Roberts]

NetMax wrote:

(Eric's orignal comments snipped)

> I think what is happening is that you have unbound the NH3 out of the
> chloramines and then the de-chlor converts to NH4 (non-toxic) and your
> test kit reads the total of the NH3 and NH4, but I'm no expert, just
> something to verify.

This sounds correct. Many hobby type kits use the "Nessler" method that
will measure ammonium (NH4+), and thus report a false-positive, as we
suspect in Eric's case. Salicylate reagent based kits will read ammonia
as NH3. For Eric to be sure, he might confirm his readings with one of
the salicylate kits.

I understand that Nessler type kits read in shades of amber, while the
Salyicylate kits read in colours from yellow to green.

HTH

--Andrew

[Eric Schreiber]

High Flight > wrote:

>A betta? I think you're worrying too much. Just change the water every
>few days.

I have an over-active sense of personal responsibility for the
critters in my care. It's a character flaw.

Besides, it's a nine dollar betta, making it by far my most expensive
fish :)


--
www.ericschreiber.com