Fishless, now I'm sad...

[Mike]

Hi all,

I've been posting for awhile, my 55G tank has been having issues that
I haven't been able to resolve. For all my reading, it looks like I've
done everything right, but today, I find myself fishless.

Well, that's not entirely true. I had taken my betta out of the 55G
tank to treat him for fin rot (BettaFix), and he's doing very well.
He's upstairs with me right now, watching me type, and seems healthier
than ever.

But I'm still very sad about my goldfish. My last comet died this
morning for what appeared to be no reason, and my fantail died about
an hour ago. The fantail surprised me, because he was eating (not
enthusiastically, but eating). And he wasn't a baby, he was about 5"
long.

I had done a 25% water change after the comet died, and added tap
water conditioner even though I'm using well water (the fish seemed to
like it before). The pH is at 7.0 right now (about 10 hours after the
water change), the SeaChem ammonia meter (circle thing) shows the
ammonia as "safe," and the temperature is at 70 degrees (the new water
was the same temp, BTW). None of my LFS have a real ammonia test kit,
so I have no way of testing for nitrates, but my betta is doing great
in the same well water so I'm GUESSING that they aren't too high.

I guess now I'm starting over. I know that in the beginning, I added
too many fish too soon, so this time my plan is to completely drain
the tank, clean everything, then refill the tank and let everything
stabilize for a few days. I intend to add a single fantail or similar
goldfish, one that's a little larger so that maybe he'll be healthier,
and let him live by himself for 2-3 weeks before adding another (or,
wait until after the ammonia stabilizes).

For those of you that have read my previous posts, would you recommend
that I do anything different to sterilize my tank before adding new
fish? My fantail has some fairly large black spots on him, but
everything online suggested that he was healing from an ammonia spike
(although my SeaChem hasn't shown a spike).

One thing that bothered me, I've been changing my filters every 2
weeks, and when I change them they're terribly dirty. I have a Penguin
filter, one of those that sucks up the water in a single hose, then
pours the water through 2 filters and lets the water "fall" back into
the tank. The last time I changed them was 2 days ago, and they were
almost black, and sort of slimy.

Thanks, all,

Mike

[Dinky]

"Mike" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I've been posting for awhile, my 55G tank has been having issues that
> I haven't been able to resolve. For all my reading, it looks like I've
> done everything right, but today, I find myself fishless.
>
>

Well, first off, I'd hazard to say that the health of the betta is a poor
indicator, as bettas and goldies have rather different water needs. Aside,
I'd go online and get a good "master test kit" that tests for Ammonia, ph,
nitrate and nitrite, if not hardness as well. If the tank was killing
goldfish, *something* serious is wrong, those things are tough. Without
water parameters, I can only guess. Others may have better guesses.


Sorry for your loss. I always feel horrible when I lose fish.

billy

[Sue]

>
> Well, first off, I'd hazard to say that the health of the betta is a poor
> indicator, as bettas and goldies have rather different water needs. Aside,
> I'd go online and get a good "master test kit" that tests for Ammonia, ph,
> nitrate and nitrite, if not hardness as well. If the tank was killing
> goldfish, *something* serious is wrong, those things are tough. Without
> water parameters, I can only guess. Others may have better guesses.
>
>
> Sorry for your loss. I always feel horrible when I lose fish.

I'll second the above but have a question.
When you clean the filter, how exactly are you doing this?
The black slime is what you need and a rinse in a bucket of tank water to
allow water flow is the usual method of cleaning. By changing the filters
you are removing the bacteria needed to breakdown fish waste. With two
sponges, only rinse one at a time.
Next time decide what you want before you buy any fish -comets & other
single tailed goldfish really belong in a pond. Your tank will comfortably
hold five fantails eventually ( once mature ) but a lot of fancy goldfish
stocks are poorly raised so you must be careful when buying them.
Tropicals are actually easier as many fish are smaller & produce less waste.

Sue

[McEve]

"Mike" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I've been posting for awhile, my 55G tank has been having issues that
> I haven't been able to resolve. For all my reading, it looks like I've
> done everything right, but today, I find myself fishless.
>


Just a "stab in the dark" - is your water pipes fairly new? Lined with
cobber? I remember one similar incident I was told about.. fish dying for no
apparant reason, they looked healthy but didn't live for more then 4-5 weeks
max, then jsut died. Turned out they were poisened by cobber from recently
changed water pipes. Are you using charcoal in your filter? That should take
care of most minerals that could be poisenous.

Just a thought... oh yeah, and did you check for parasites? Ask you LFS if
they could take a scraping from one fish and find any parasites examining
the scraping in a microscope.

Nina

[asginpg]

> >
> > I've been posting for awhile, my 55G tank has been having issues that
> > I haven't been able to resolve. For all my reading, it looks like I've
> > done everything right, but today, I find myself fishless.
> >
>
I am sorry to hear about your fishy losses. The prior posts regarding
the possibility that you are killing your "good bacteria" or
inadvertently poisoning your fish are interesting and should be
considered further. Since you are starting again, perhaps you might
want to consider fishless cycling. I have never tried it, but there
are some benefits. It will likely take you longer to get to the
"putting fish in tank" stage, but you should be able to avoid ammonia
damage; which, when not deadly, is permanent. There is quite a bit of
information on how to do this in this group and on the net. Also,
some books I have read suggest cycling the tank for close to 30 days
before even adding fish. Might be worth considering, since you have
had an above average bad time of it.

From your posts, your fish appear to become worse after every water
change. This is very odd. When you do start adding water again (once
you are sure it does not contain copper or other damaging metals) you
might want to consider conditioning it anyway and then leaving it for
at least 24 hours before adding it to your tank. Obviously chlorine
is not a problem for you but perhaps there are other gasses in your
water which are bothering your fish. Just a thought.

Good luck in the New Year.

[Mike]

> When you clean the filter, how exactly are you doing this?
> The black slime is what you need and a rinse in a bucket of tank water to
> allow water flow is the usual method of cleaning. By changing the filters
> you are removing the bacteria needed to breakdown fish waste. With two
> sponges, only rinse one at a time.
> Next time decide what you want before you buy any fish -comets & other
> single tailed goldfish really belong in a pond. Your tank will comfortably
> hold five fantails eventually ( once mature ) but a lot of fancy goldfish
> stocks are poorly raised so you must be careful when buying them.
> Tropicals are actually easier as many fish are smaller & produce less waste.


OK, this has really, really got me. Before I say anything, let me
point out that my LFS is either Wal-Mart or a small place that has 2
16 year old kids running it who also sell pot out of the back. So, not
exactly a lot of reliable information here.

According to THEM, I needed to change the filters every 2-4 weeks. Not
clean them, but change them. The filters I'm using are rectangular,
and came with 8 in a pack for $10. They also had separate packs of
"carbon" that I had to pour into the filter (it didn't say charcoal,
just carbon).

If I'm not suppose to replace these, how often do I clean them? If I
understand the method correctly (now that I read about it after all my
fish are dead), I'm suppose to use the old tank water to kinda swish
my filter in, then put it back into the tank with the new water. Do I
replace the carbon? How often, if ever, should I totally replace the
filter?

Also, someone else mentioned copper in the water. Oyy! My house is 12
years old, and I'm guessing the pipes are, too. They all LOOK like
plastic, but that's not to say that the pump doesn't have copper in
it. Even though I'm using well water, I did start to use water
conditioner when I only had 2 fish left, and even though it seemed to
help, it didn't prevent them from dying a few days later. However, my
betta seems to like the water conditioning, so it's probably a good
idea. It can't hurt, can it?

Sue, I really wanted to do tropical fish in the first place, and let
the LFS talk me into doing goldfish. I took their word on it that they
were hardier and more likely to live. I originally wanted to do what I
thought was simple: something like 5 or 6 Angels by themselves would
have made me happy.

I'm researching Angels right now, and it looks like I need a
well-cycled tank before adding them. I guess this means a fishless
cycle for a month or so, after all. Any suggestions on plants, or are
they necessary? I don't want them, to be honest, but I understand that
they'll help with the nitrates.

Thanks again,

Mike

[Sue]

> OK, this has really, really got me. Before I say anything, let me
> point out that my LFS is either Wal-Mart or a small place that has 2
> 16 year old kids running it who also sell pot out of the back. So, not
> exactly a lot of reliable information here.

No but a lot of information here ; http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk & here;
http://www.thekrib.com

> According to THEM, I needed to change the filters every 2-4 weeks. Not
> clean them, but change them. The filters I'm using are rectangular,
> and came with 8 in a pack for $10. They also had separate packs of
> "carbon" that I had to pour into the filter (it didn't say charcoal,
> just carbon).
You don't need carbon unless you are trying to remove medication or tints
etc.
The filter pads in some of the small systemised filters are changed because
their biowheels hold bacteria but most people still rinse these & reuse
them.

>
> If I'm not suppose to replace these, how often do I clean them?
A quick rinse - in old tankwater -every couple of weeks. It does depend on
messiness of fish & goldfish are as messy as they come ;o(

If I
> understand the method correctly (now that I read about it after all my
> fish are dead), I'm suppose to use the old tank water to kinda swish
> my filter in, then put it back into the tank with the new water. Do I
> replace the carbon? How often, if ever, should I totally replace the
> filter?
NEVER!!!!!!!
>
> Also, someone else mentioned copper in the water. Oyy! My house is 12
> years old, and I'm guessing the pipes are, too. They all LOOK like
> plastic, but that's not to say that the pump doesn't have copper in
> it. Even though I'm using well water, I did start to use water
> conditioner when I only had 2 fish left, and even though it seemed to
> help, it didn't prevent them from dying a few days later. However, my
> betta seems to like the water conditioning, so it's probably a good
> idea. It can't hurt, can it?
I wouldn't worry about copper in twelve year old COLD water pipes but don't
use water from the hot system.
You can use a plastic or stainless steel kettle to add hot water to a bucket
of cold for water changes.

> Sue, I really wanted to do tropical fish in the first place, and let
> the LFS talk me into doing goldfish. I took their word on it that they
> were hardier and more likely to live. I originally wanted to do what I
> thought was simple: something like 5 or 6 Angels by themselves would
> have made me happy.
>
> I'm researching Angels right now, and it looks like I need a
> well-cycled tank before adding them. I guess this means a fishless
> cycle for a month or so, after all. Any suggestions on plants, or are
> they necessary? I don't want them, to be honest, but I understand that
> they'll help with the nitrates.

Look into fishless cycling and don't bother with the bottles of cycle type
stuff you see on the shelves -waste of monery IMO.
There is a refridgerated bacterial product that is supposed to be good and
I'm sure someone else will be along with it's name.
Order yourself a test kit online -you need ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH &
hardness.
Plants are not difficult -if you pick the right ones. You can buy mixed
selsctions online so buy one for the tank size down & see what thrives under
your lights & water conditions. Avoid red leaves -these do take more care.
Vallis is pretty tolerant & ideal for angels.
If you like angels I'd look into getting the tank through a fishless cycle &
then adding a small shoal (5-6) of not too small (as adults) tetras eg
Pristella, lemon, silvertip. These are deeper bodied than neons & less
likely to become a meal as the angels grow. A Bristlenose added when algae
first appears will keep it in check. After a couple of months add half a
dozen juvenile angels & watch them grow. You may have to remove some
later.if you get a pair form.
A few cories & your tank is complete ;o)
Sue

[Keith J]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...

<snip>
> Vallis is pretty tolerant & ideal for angels.
> If you like angels I'd look into getting the tank through a fishless cycle
&
> then adding a small shoal (5-6) of not too small (as adults) tetras eg
> Pristella, lemon, silvertip. These are deeper bodied than neons & less
> likely to become a meal as the angels grow. A Bristlenose added when algae
> first appears will keep it in check. After a couple of months add half a
> dozen juvenile angels & watch them grow. You may have to remove some
> later.if you get a pair form.
> A few cories & your tank is complete ;o)
> Sue

I would recommend that you add the tetras and other small fish a couple
months before the angels, to give them some time to grow. This helps reduce
the number that become angel snacks.
Other than that, some good info.
Keith J.

[EGMono]

In article >,
(Mike) writes:

>OK, this has really, really got me. Before I say anything, let me
>point out that my LFS is either Wal-Mart or a small place that has 2
>16 year old kids running it who also sell pot out of the back. So, not
>exactly a lot of reliable information here.
Hmm. Good pot? ;)

>According to THEM, I needed to change the filters every 2-4 weeks. Not
>clean them, but change them. The filters I'm using are rectangular,
>and came with 8 in a pack for $10. They also had separate packs of
>"carbon" that I had to pour into the filter (it didn't say charcoal,
>just carbon).

Carbon, charcoal, whatever. :) I recommend changing filter once a month, but
have been told by a lazy friend that he changes his when the water stops coming
out of the filter. :) I also recommend cleaning it a time of two in between,
take the mechanical part, not the biological part, and give it a good scrubbing
with an old toothbrush or whatever. Keeps the buildup from getting back into
the tank. Carbon keeps the tank from smelling. If you don't feel like changing
it at a regular interval, say once a month, then change it when your tank
starts getting a lil' stanky. :)

>Also, someone else mentioned copper in the water. Oyy! My house is 12
>years old, and I'm guessing the pipes are, too.

My apt. is in a house that feels almost 100 yrs old. I believe that most of the
plumbing has been upgraded. I mix hot and cold water at the tap to get the
right temp. without having any problems with my fish.

>Sue, I really wanted to do tropical fish in the first place, and let
>the LFS talk me into doing goldfish. I took their word on it that they
>were hardier and more likely to live. I originally wanted to do what I
>thought was simple: something like 5 or 6 Angels by themselves would
>have made me happy.

Hmmm, I would have thought Angels, being from the cichlid family, would have
been tougher than goldfish. Goldfish, and other coldwater fish, need more
gallons per fish because of a larger need for oxygen. Also goldfish produce a
ton of waste. :)

>I'm researching Angels right now, and it looks like I need a
>well-cycled tank before adding them. I guess this means a fishless
>cycle for a month or so, after all. Any suggestions on plants, or are
>they necessary? I don't want them, to be honest, but I understand that
>they'll help with the nitrates.

So will regular water changes. Good luck! Love to hear an update on the angels.

>Thanks again,
>
>Mike

No sweat, (and btw no plants in the tank either),


--
E.G.Mono

[Flash Wilson]

On 24 Dec 2003 00:37:43 -0800, Mike > wrote:
>If I'm not suppose to replace these, how often do I clean them? If I
>understand the method correctly (now that I read about it after all my
>fish are dead), I'm suppose to use the old tank water to kinda swish
>my filter in, then put it back into the tank with the new water. Do I
>replace the carbon? How often, if ever, should I totally replace the
>filter?

I change my carbon every 6-8 weeks - many people on these groups
prefer not to use carbon, but I use it. Remove it if you're ever
medicating the tank, and replace with fresh at the end. I change
my floss every time I clean the filter, so about every 2 weeks.
I have never changed the ceramic rings, but I'll think about doing
that soon - I've only had the tank a year. Never changed the
sponges either.

Yes, you are supposed to clean in tank water, but it can be a
bit yukky and murky. So what I do is put some fresh water in a
jug, add dechlorinator (that's the important bit and the reason
you can't just use tap water to clean, as chlorine will kill the
bacteria). Then I rinse the bits I'm keeping (ceramic rings etc)
in that. Then I take a sponge and wring it out in the water,
squeezing it a few times until the sponge has gone from filthy
to merely being brown coloured, and the water will be filthy.
So I use fresh, dechlorinated water to clean each sponge.

Also I clean the hoses by taking them off the filter inlet and
letting them run a little and making sure there's no gunk round
the end where the water enters the filter.

And then it all goes back together. Sorted!

The more you replace things (rather than cleaning in dechlorinated
water) the more beneficial bacteria you are throwing away. The
carbon needs regular changes if you choose to use it, every 6-8
weeks (otherwise it is less effective and is thought to possibly
leach the chemicals it has absorbed back into the water) and you
will need to change the floss because it will just get filthy
quickest. I use two pieces and throw the bottom one away and
then put what was the top piece on the bottom, so they get used
in sequence, but do whatever you prefer.

Hopefully that gives you some ideas - I don't know if I do it
the "right" way but it seems to work fine for me.


--
Flash Wilson
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