Is my curse continuing?

[NSP]

Hi All!

I'm feeling nervous about two of my fish.

In particular, my Betta and my Pleco.

While I noticed it a few days ago, they have both been developing an
underbelly.

Their scales aren't popping out like a pinecone, and they are both
super active and happy looking - but with all the Crocodile Hunter
diseases that have struck my tank since it started - I'm concerned.

I have been feeding my fish twice a day with flake food - do fish
naturally get fat like people?

Regards,
Neil

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Is my curse continuing?
>From: (NSP)
>Date: 1/8/2004 11:01 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Hi All!
>
>I'm feeling nervous about two of my fish.
>
>In particular, my Betta and my Pleco.
>
>While I noticed it a few days ago, they have both been developing an
>underbelly.
>
>Their scales aren't popping out like a pinecone, and they are both
>super active and happy looking - but with all the Crocodile Hunter
>diseases that have struck my tank since it started - I'm concerned.
>
>I have been feeding my fish twice a day with flake food - do fish
>naturally get fat like people?
>
>Regards,
>Neil

You sure can make a fish fat, even obese. Just like humans, it's very unhealthy
for fish too.
I would stick to the two feedings per day, but you may want to cut down on the
amount.
What are you feeding the Pleco besides flake?

[NSP]

> You sure can make a fish fat, even obese. Just like humans, it's very unhealthy
> for fish too.
> I would stick to the two feedings per day, but you may want to cut down on the
> amount.
> What are you feeding the Pleco besides flake?

I have only been feeding flakes. However, a Blue Ram (which I
replaced) and a Guppy died over the past few days - and I have been
unable to find the bodies in either case.

I'm suspecting the Pleco ate their corpses before I could get them out
of the tank.

They were both gasping before they went, so I don't know what the
cause was. The other fish in the tank show no indication of oxygen
deprivation.

My water quality is good as far as I can tell. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite,
negligeable nitrate, 7.0 PH, temp is 79F. I have also been doing water
changes on a weekly basis.

At this time, my 25 gallon has:

1 Betta
1 Female Guppy
6 Wedge Tetras (I'm not sure of their exact name. They have an orange
spot with a black wedge)
2 Blue Rams
2 Bolivian Rams
1 Pleco
2 Mollies

As I said, all are behaving well with lots of activity. I don't see
any fin nipping or obvious aggression. There are also plenty of plants
in the tank for shade and hiding.

I am using an Aquaclear 200. From what I've read, I shouldn't need
more aeration - am I missing something?

Regards,
Neil

[NSP]

I'm beginning to grow more certain that it is dropsy.

My Betta who suffered from fin & tail rot just a few weeks ago is
getting a relapse.

I put some salt in the tank in hopes that that will help as the other
fish are not having this problem - but I am feeling discouraged.

I have Furan-2 that I can put in the tank, but that will just destroy
the biofilter.

Would Melafix help in a situation like this?

Regards,
Neil

[Matthew Clark]

>However, a Blue Ram (which I
> replaced) and a Guppy died over the past few days
>am I missing something?

Maybe. I wouldn't worry about the big bellies as long as there are no
signs of dropsy/other signs of trouble, but given that a number of
fish were "gasping", I would run a dissolved oxygen test. Foru
cichlids, even peaceful ones like rams, require a fair amount of
oxygen.

Matthew Clark

[NSP]

> Maybe. I wouldn't worry about the big bellies as long as there are no
> signs of dropsy/other signs of trouble, but given that a number of
> fish were "gasping", I would run a dissolved oxygen test. Foru
> cichlids, even peaceful ones like rams, require a fair amount of
> oxygen.


You are probably right. I've had terrible luck with my tank since it
started, so I might be ultrasensitive to aquatic ailments.

I'm going to buy an oxygen test kit to see how things stand.

The Betta and Pleco are still very active. Perhaps they are supposed
to have a healthy underbelly? They don't look like gargantuan
balloons, and their coloring is correct. It's mostly right after
feeding that I see the Betta's belly grown.

I'm going to watch the Betta's fins. Only the betta's tail fin looks a
little raggid - everything else is ok. Also, the betta easily displays
and swims about.

Cats are so much easier than fish!

If they do have Dropsy, is there a time period that the condition
takes before the fish behavior declines? Perhaps there is a time
window that will rule the condition out?

Regards,
Neil

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Is my curse continuing?
>From: (NSP)
>Date: 1/9/2004 5:15 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I'm beginning to grow more certain that it is dropsy.
>
>My Betta who suffered from fin & tail rot just a few weeks ago is
>getting a relapse.
>
>I put some salt in the tank in hopes that that will help as the other
>fish are not having this problem - but I am feeling discouraged.
>
>I have Furan-2 that I can put in the tank, but that will just destroy
>the biofilter.
>
>Would Melafix help in a situation like this?
>
>Regards,
>Neil
>
>

Are you sure it's Fin rot and that the Betta isn't getting shredded by a tank
mate?
This is the most common problem for a Betta..most folks think the Betta will
shred or beat up the other fish in the tank. However, it's usually the Betta
getting shredded.
Try sitting far away from the tank, but still having a view of it.
This is so that the fish stop looking at you for attention and go about their
normal behavior. Look to see of the Betta is getting nipped by somebody.

[NSP]

> Are you sure it's Fin rot and that the Betta isn't getting shredded by a tank
> mate?
> This is the most common problem for a Betta..most folks think the Betta will
> shred or beat up the other fish in the tank. However, it's usually the Betta
> getting shredded.
> Try sitting far away from the tank, but still having a view of it.
> This is so that the fish stop looking at you for attention and go about their
> normal behavior. Look to see of the Betta is getting nipped by somebody.

I'm afraid I was right to suspect something.

I noticed my Pleco was passing transparent stool, and another Blue Ram
died gasping.

I have also noticed that some of my fish have dark red/purple gills.

Looks like I have parasites.

I bought a general parasite treatment (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals).
We'll have to wait and see.

I put the first table in the water directly. The second tablet was
mixed in water with fish food so the fish may eat the medicine
directly.

My poor fish.

Neil

[RedForeman ©®]

Your poor fish is right.... you ask for help, virtually ignore most, if not
99% of it, then come back and state that your tank is the tank of death....
then come back with yet another complaint...

Personally, I think it's funny that you can diagnose a disease, but can't
maintain a clean tank. It's also funny that you don't recall what ppl tell
you, don't follow instructions that no less than 12 ppl including myself
have tried to pass on to you, yet you're continuing to feed 2x a day? no
wonder your water is out of whack, because you are 'playing with it, like a
toy' and obviously you have no depth to understand that it's not a picture
you paint, it's a system that you can NOT play with, and if you do, you get
what you deserve, Death. Plain and simple....

I was a beginner 3 years ago.... I did some stupid things, but one thing I
never did, was to ignore suggestions I got from 3 very influential people,
Jim Brown, NetMax and LeighMo. Jim could tell me the details of why a fish
is doing something, NetMax could tell me where I went wrong on my water, and
LeighMo taught me almost everything there is to know about plants and
CO2/nutrients.... Not to mention Dave P. and Dave Millman, Chuck "the plant
god' Gadd and many MANY others.... From each person I took some knowledge,
and ended up saving my fish, and myself a helluva lot of time... and
money...

I added my suggestions many weeks ago, but I bet you never followed up to
read it... you might try to do so, it still applies....

Neil, honestly... Maybe fish aren't your thing, maybe you should just clean
out your tank and go out and get a hermit crab or something that you can't
really kill... I'm sure the ppl of the newsgroup are shaking their heads and
rolling their eyes when they see your posts... The ominous thought of, "what
now" comes to mind.... I know I gave up on the last 7 posts you said
something was dying.... and yet, here's another one saying your blue ram is
gasping and dead... it's just a shame, all this help and you STILL can't
keep anything alive....

If you really want help, start reading and researching more... otherwise,
you may be a lost cause...

--

RedForeman ©®





"NSP" > wrote in message
om...
> > Are you sure it's Fin rot and that the Betta isn't getting shredded by a
tank
> > mate?
> > This is the most common problem for a Betta..most folks think the Betta
will
> > shred or beat up the other fish in the tank. However, it's usually the
Betta
> > getting shredded.
> > Try sitting far away from the tank, but still having a view of it.
> > This is so that the fish stop looking at you for attention and go about
their
> > normal behavior. Look to see of the Betta is getting nipped by somebody.
>
> I'm afraid I was right to suspect something.
>
> I noticed my Pleco was passing transparent stool, and another Blue Ram
> died gasping.
>
> I have also noticed that some of my fish have dark red/purple gills.
>
> Looks like I have parasites.
>
> I bought a general parasite treatment (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals).
> We'll have to wait and see.
>
> I put the first table in the water directly. The second tablet was
> mixed in water with fish food so the fish may eat the medicine
> directly.
>
> My poor fish.
>
> Neil

[coelacanth]

I'm with Red on this one. I'm amazed that you can diagnose
diseases so readily, particularly "parasites"--I sure can't.
I also haven't seen you say anything about water parameters.
Looking back over your posts, I won't criticize your pleco,
but I must question nearly everything else you have in your
tank. I think the fact that you are keeping pairs of
livebearers (rather than trios or more females), the fact
that you've got sof****er Rams in with hardwater
livebearers, the fact that you want to keep cichlids with
guppies indicates a lack of research.

For the sake of your fish, take everything out and return
them to the shop. Empty the tank. Refill it. Let is
run for a week or two. Check your water parameters.
Add three or four zebrafish or white cloud minnows or
other tough, easy fish. Lock the medicines in a cupboard.
See if you can keep the fish alive for six months. You
will learn a lot and you'll be ready to tackle more difficult
fish.

I'm sorry to be so assertive Nick, but you clearly do
not have enough experience to handle the set up
you've got. And somewhere along the way, you
decided medicating is a substitute for husbandry.
If you need to medicate, you need to figure out
what happened to make your fish sick FIRST.

-coelacanth


> > I'm afraid I was right to suspect something.
> >
> > I noticed my Pleco was passing transparent stool, and another Blue Ram
> > died gasping.
> >
> > I have also noticed that some of my fish have dark red/purple gills.
> >
> > Looks like I have parasites.
> >
> > I bought a general parasite treatment (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals).
> > We'll have to wait and see.
> >
> > I put the first table in the water directly. The second tablet was
> > mixed in water with fish food so the fish may eat the medicine
> > directly.
> >
> > My poor fish.
> >
> > Neil

[Tedd Jacobs]

"RedForeman ©®" wrote...
> Your poor fish is right.... you ask for help, virtually ignore most, if not
> 99% of it, then come back and state that your tank is the tank of death....
> then come back with yet another complaint...
>
> Personally, I think it's funny that you can diagnose a disease, but can't
> maintain a clean tank. It's also funny that you don't recall what ppl tell
> you, don't follow instructions that no less than 12 ppl including myself
> have tried to pass on to you, yet you're continuing to feed 2x a day? no
> wonder your water is out of whack, because you are 'playing with it, like a
> toy' [...]

again i agree with red, and i suspect many others here do as well. you're not
listening to the help people are giving you neil.

before you think red rude for his comments think first on this; how insulting
have you been to us? you ask for our advice then disregard it as if you know
better. you seem to presume that your few weeks of failed experience outweigh
the over 100 years combined successful experience shared here by the people who
in many cases started off the same as you. you insult us by; 1.) disregarding
the advice of the group, 2.) complaining about additional problems because you
disregarded the advice of the group, and; 3.) then disregarding the advice given
the second time around (and third, forth, etc, etc,...) you complain about the
increase in problems.

if the catch phrase 'been there and done that' means anything to you, then you
should understand how detrimental ignoring the counsel provided is to your own
credibility. we /want/ to help you. we /want/ you to succeed. we want you and
your fish to be happy. what we dont want is to hear about all the things that
going wrong because you didnt heed the advice.

let me give you an example:

"i hit my finger with a hammer, it hurts, i put a hole in the wall"
dont use a hammer, wrap your finger and let it heal, fix the wall later.
"i hit my finger with a hammer again while trying to fix the wall. it still
hurts, i put another hole in the wall."
stop using the hammer untill your finger heals, once your finger heals you can
fix the wall.
"my finger hurts, i hit it with a hammer again. i have three holes in the wall
now."
dont try and fix the wall, please dont use a hammer untill you have given your
finger time to heal, all you're doing is making more holes in the wall.
"i think because my finger hurts it is affecting my ability to use a hammer
because i hit it again while trying to fix the wall."...

see where this is going? the best people in this group are giving up trying to
help because it is obvious to them you're not going to listen, so they are not
going to waste their time. soon, those of us who are still with you will be
giving up as well. and this is more frustrating to us than fishkeeping is to
you.

[NSP]

> Your poor fish is right.... you ask for help, virtually ignore most, if not
> 99% of it, then come back and state that your tank is the tank of death....
> then come back with yet another complaint...
>
> Personally, I think it's funny that you can diagnose a disease, but can't
> maintain a clean tank. It's also funny that you don't recall what ppl tell
> you, don't follow instructions that no less than 12 ppl including myself
> have tried to pass on to you, yet you're continuing to feed 2x a day? no
> wonder your water is out of whack, because you are 'playing with it, like a
> toy' and obviously you have no depth to understand that it's not a picture
> you paint, it's a system that you can NOT play with, and if you do, you get
> what you deserve, Death. Plain and simple....
>
> I was a beginner 3 years ago.... I did some stupid things, but one thing I
> never did, was to ignore suggestions I got from 3 very influential people,
> Jim Brown, NetMax and LeighMo. Jim could tell me the details of why a fish
> is doing something, NetMax could tell me where I went wrong on my water, and
> LeighMo taught me almost everything there is to know about plants and
> CO2/nutrients.... Not to mention Dave P. and Dave Millman, Chuck "the plant
> god' Gadd and many MANY others.... From each person I took some knowledge,
> and ended up saving my fish, and myself a helluva lot of time... and
> money...
>
> I added my suggestions many weeks ago, but I bet you never followed up to
> read it... you might try to do so, it still applies....
>
> Neil, honestly... Maybe fish aren't your thing, maybe you should just clean
> out your tank and go out and get a hermit crab or something that you can't
> really kill... I'm sure the ppl of the newsgroup are shaking their heads and
> rolling their eyes when they see your posts... The ominous thought of, "what
> now" comes to mind.... I know I gave up on the last 7 posts you said
> something was dying.... and yet, here's another one saying your blue ram is
> gasping and dead... it's just a shame, all this help and you STILL can't
> keep anything alive....
>
> If you really want help, start reading and researching more... otherwise,
> you may be a lost cause...
>
> --
>
> RedForeman ©®


You know, every time I read one of your posts, I make a note to myself
to find some Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tablet that would get rid of
that terrible parasite that is stuck up your ass.

It's a shame I have been procrastinating as long as I have as that
parasite is obviously eating away at your brain as well.

If you have nothing positive - or useful - to say, please do as your
mother taught you, and keep it to yourself.

For starters, try taking the hermit crab you want me to keep as a pet
out of your bum - perhaps THAT would solve your poor manners problem.

Neil

[Eric Schreiber]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote:

>If you really want help, start reading and researching more... otherwise,
>you may be a lost cause...

Again, like several others, I'm with Red on this one. NSP ignores the
advice he's given, and exacerbates the situation by resorting to
personal attacks when someone bluntly points it out to him.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

[Victor Martinez]

Aren't you tired of killing fish? Get a pet rock. At least it's already
dead.

--
Victor Martinez
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[RedForeman ©®]

"NSP" > wrote in message
> You know, every time I read one of your posts, I make a note to myself
> to find some Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tablet that would get rid of
> that terrible parasite that is stuck up your ass.

Wow... there's proof someone doesn't like hearing the truth... sorry it
upset you so much Neil, it's just a terrible thing, that reality..

> It's a shame I have been procrastinating as long as I have as that
> parasite is obviously eating away at your brain as well.

That's just grasping at straws... Sorry Neil, not impressed...

> If you have nothing positive - or useful - to say, please do as your
> mother taught you, and keep it to yourself.

I gave you several, if not many positives in every other post... This post,
I've just had enough of your story....

> For starters, try taking the hermit crab you want me to keep as a pet
> out of your bum - perhaps THAT would solve your poor manners problem.

Poor manners... is that what you call pure honesty? bad manners?

I'll tell you what Neil... This could be the best or worst day of your life.
It's up to you to choose what it'll be. Nobody else is IN your shoes, and
nobody else is responsible for what you do, except yourself. If you can say
you harbor no ill feelings about killing your fish, or just torturing them
the way you do, that's great...you are a better person than I.

I on the other hand, have a heart the size of texas, love every facet of
animals there is, and strive to make the time my fishies have in my tank as
good as it could possibly get, as close to their natural environment as
possible....

At the end of the day, I'm able to look at myself and know that I've given
someone a bit of advice...(That's courteous) I've answered someone's
questions, and I've never claimed to be an expert.... (That's called
humility) If I'm wrong, I'm man enough to admit it, take it and learn from
it. (That's called intelligence)

Do I feel bad about what I said? Not as bad as I feel for you..... You, who
lashes out when the truth appears right in front of him... who can get no
resolution because he's a bit loofy with his fish.... who continues to come
in with more problems than positive results from our suggestions.... and I'm
the one with bad manners, and the crab eating my brain, and the parasite up
my bum.... oh neil.... I'm so sorry for ya bud.... I didn't realize you were
a 12 year old or I would have catered my posts more appropriate for you...

--
RedForeman ©®

[coelacanth]

"NSP" > wrote in message
om...

> You know, every time I read one of your posts, I make a note to myself
> to find some Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tablet that would get rid of
> that terrible parasite that is stuck up your ass.

*sigh* More medication--Neil, I hope you've got stock in AP.

[NSP]

I don't think this is a fair assesment at all.

What parts of your posts have I been ignoring?

- I've put salt in my tank.
- My tank is fully cycled
- I've read the newsgroups, websites, etc.
- I've spoken with different LFS

What grandiose recommendations have you made that I ignored?

- Give up on fish
- You are hopeless
- Fish aren't for you
- and a myriad of other put downs and so on.

AND THAT WAS JUST FROM YOU!

Yes - your posts are very upsetting - and I don't think there is any
shame in having some failures. Yes, I've made some errors - and I'm ok
with it. I'm the one who buys and gets attached to my fish, has to net
and flush the fish, and post online looking for a helping hand.

I'm also the one who spends my time reading online, talking to lfs,
and taking pointless abuse by know-it-alls like you.

What kind of life do you live that you have to write essay length
posts about what a terrible person I am? What insecurity do you
possess that requires you to put me down in public places?

It's so easy to be high and mighty behind goofy alias' and anonymous
email.

Perhaps the honesty was a little too much for you.

Regards,
Neil

[RedForeman ©®]

Neil, we could start at the beginning, but that's alot for you to have to
think about so I'll try and sum it up for 'our' sake...

You first posted with, your comedy of errors. 11-12-03
Second post - 11-13-03
Third post - Oh the horror - followup to comedy of errors - 11-16-03
Fourth post - Death! It Stalks You at Every Turn! DEEEAAATH - 11-17-03
Fifth post - I give up - 11-20-03
Then on 11-21-03, a ray of sunshine post was given, we though maybe the tide
had turned....
And by 12-4-03, you claimed to have finally finished cycling... whoo hooo...
Then on 12-12-03, the ich comes back... why? because you didn't take
anyone's suggestion and raise the temp, or continue dosing until 1 week
after the last dot was seen...
Then it was the Tank of Death - 12-15-03
Then it was - Out of Ideas - 12-16-03
Then it was - Fungus, Fungus, Fungus - 1-2-04

Do you see a pattern??

The pattern is, you post, ppl here answer... I have confidence that if you
had followed the suggestions like most of us here, some good results may
have worked out for you. but they didn't...

What I saw was someone who 'seemed' to disregard most of the basic
information given, and when you demonstrated that you weren't following the
suggestions given, I got frustrated with your problem... Maybe that's
because it's not getting fixed. I know you are having fun with a new 'toy'
but it seemed from this perspective, that you were playing with it too much.

Lastly, Neil, sorry you are having such terrible problems, but you don't
have to lash out, and call ppl names like we're in grammar school... If you
take what I say to heart, I apologize, as you shouldn't. This is the
internet, and if you can't take a bit of heat, maybe looking into purchasing
an asbestos suit... (humor) as it's said before, there's a reason for
anonymity, if you wanna know who I am, it's easy enough, and I'm not hiding
from anyone....

The suggestion I give you now, is the same one you overlooked, and it is the
same one even NetMax mentioned would be the best advice you could possibly
follow, AT THAT TIME...

Leave it alone, walk away from the tank, and just sit back and relax... quit
putting stuff in, taking stuff out, mixing and playing with it...

If you really have read and researched, I'm sorry, I just haven't seen you
demonstrate any specific knowledge of what you are doing, and especially,
when you mess with it, that shows you've not learned much yet, because most
of my research said to not tinker with the water too much, and then again,
maybe that comes down to my knowledge being bigger than yours... (that was
meant to be a joke)

From here on out Neil, I'll tell you what... I will NOT reply to your
messages, since you feel that I'm such a mean and hateful person who puts
you down in public, I will NOT offer you any more advice, since I'm living
such a life that I'm looking down on you or something, and I will NOT
respond to any sort of insult from you, because I've been on the internet
long enough to not take anything personally, because we're adults, and can
converse as adults, even in heated discussions, without being childish and
insulting, as you said I was doing so to you.... for that, I will apologize
to you for it.... why? I'm not sure, but to save face, I will.

As for honesty, I don't think there's a better policy....

--
RedForeman ©®

ps, how do you pronounce tuo-te???

[Happy'Cam'per]

ROFLMAO at this thread.........

NSP, the only advice I can really offer and which will benefit you greatly
is: HAVE PATIENCE DUDE. Your tank is new and settling in, we've all killed a
few fish in our time but you need to back off a bit. As Red said, LEAVE THE
SYSTEM to run on its own, it will stabilise and you'll be able to enjoy your
finned friends. Have a nice day now ya hear, and stay out of pet shops this
weekend :)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**



"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> Aren't you tired of killing fish? Get a pet rock. At least it's already
> dead.
>
> --
> Victor Martinez
> Send your spam here:
> Email me here: