Keeping Tetras and Other Soft Water Species: Please Help

[Nemo]

Hi,

I'm no guru in this hobby albeit my understanding of the basics. My interest
in the FW tank was stimulated mostly by the desire to keep small schooling
colorful species like the neon or cardinal tetras. Most of the species I'm
interested in seem to be soft water species.

Unfortunately, my tap water is somewhat hard with a pH in the vicinity of
8.2. My tank is 29G, and has 5 live plants and two pieces of Mopani wood.
Together with the dechlorinating conditioner I use, these factors seem to
soften my tap water down to a pH of about 7.5-7.8.

Eventually, I introduced 12 small neons to the tank. Within days, they got
ich and infected the three platys that were there for over a month.
Treatment with half dose methyl blue resulted in 50% loss in the neons (6
neons). The platys survived, including 2 fry that were in hiding. The ich
was still present after three (3) days of medication so I did a 50% water
change, added salt and raised the temperature. A week later the ich was gone
together with 4 more neons. In total I lost 10 neons to this outbreak.

At the time, I attributed the ich outbreak to chilling stress - or so I
reasoned/assumed. Back then I was making 25% daily water changes in an
attempt to control discoloration of the water by the recent addition of
Mopani wood. Since then, I've learnt to accept Mopani Tea, and to heat the
aged water prior to adding it to the tank.

A couple of weeks later when I thought conditions had stabilized, I
introduced 12 more small neons and 5 ghost shrimps. Unfortunately, the neons
started immediately dying off at a rate of one fish per day. Within a week I
was left with only 6 neons. The platys were fine and so were the ghost
shrimps.

This was most disturbing because all of the water quality parameters were
fine. Granted, the pH was slightly elevated for optimal neon conditions, and
I keep salt concentrations of 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons, but it was my
understanding that the neons should adapt to these conditions as long as the
water quality is good.

I tried different things to stop the fish loss. First I did a 25% water
change without adding salt to reduce salt concentration.. Then I was making
water changes every other day to keep the water quality high. Then I cleaned
the filter foam and vacuumed the gravel thoroughly to minimize suspended
solids. Finally, I changed the carbon filter to improve organic and color
filtration.

Changing the carbon filter was the trigger that marked the arrest of neon
loss. It has been 4 days now since my last casualty, but every time I look
at the tank, I can't help but count the little guys to make sure they're all
there. I am not sure the problem was the dissolved organics because I change
the carbon filter every 4 weeks anyway - when I replaced it, it was due for
changing!

I would like to continue keeping neons, and hopefully add more soft water
species in the future. To this end I feel adjusting the water chemistry in
the tank to optimize the conditions and minimize fish loss may be necessary.
This goes against what I read about matching the fish kept to the local tap
water chemistry and not the other way around. But, frankly, soft water fish
is what attracted me to the FW hobby in the 1st place - I would turn this
tank to a hospital for my SW aquarium otherwise.

Having said all of this, here are some questions. More may follow:

- Are neon tetra sensitive to dissolved organics? Do they have special
requirements with respect to changing the carbon filter more frequently?
- Is it necessary to lower the pH to 7.0?
- What is the safest way to soften the water in a planted tank?

Many thanks

[Flash Wilson]

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:33:15 -0500, Nemo > wrote:
>I'm no guru in this hobby albeit my understanding of the basics. My interest
>in the FW tank was stimulated mostly by the desire to keep small schooling
>colorful species like the neon or cardinal tetras. Most of the species I'm
>interested in seem to be soft water species.
>
<snip>
>
>Having said all of this, here are some questions. More may follow:
>
>- Are neon tetra sensitive to dissolved organics? Do they have special
>requirements with respect to changing the carbon filter more frequently?

Don't know - I've got cardinals. I find that they are absolutely fine
and don't really care about how often the carbon is changed (it's
"when I remember" which is about every 2 months). Try cardies, they
are supposed to be hardier and IMO prettier too.

When they were new in the tank, some died. This I put down to
a) buying the last ten in the shop rather than the healthiest
ten in a tankful, and it being an LFS which often sells me sick
fish and which I no longer use; and
b) the filter wasn't working too well, its output had slowed
considerably before I realised and gave it a good clean. The
power head was the problem. Once this was fixed they (and other
fish) perked up - understandably!

So with care you shouldn't have those problems.

>- Is it necessary to lower the pH to 7.0?

We hear on here that a stable pH is better than the "right" pH
but I would certainly aim for a lower pH than your tap water.
I've got tap water pH8 and I have a tankful of sof****er fish
including cardies at pH6.4 (which was about as close as I could
easily get).

I think the most important thing is the KH - soften to about 2-3
and the pH will drop by itself. If you drop to 0 the pH will crash,
I've had that problem and it went to less than 5... if you go
too high, it will cause problems in cardies. I've read that they
get health problems in water that's too hard for them, such as
kidney failure and death. I haven't seen it, but I haven't tried
to keep them in water above pH7.

>- What is the safest way to soften the water in a planted tank?

Personally, I filter with peat. I do this separately in a bucket.
See http://www.marksfish.dipsy.cyberprog.net/marksfish/diy/peat.htm
Then I let it stand, along with a bucket of tap water, and
dechlorinate both bucketfuls too. Then after a few hours when
they have settled I mix them (in another bucket!) until the KH is
around 3. At this point I test pH and find it's somewhere around
6-7 and ideal for my purposes.

I used this water to fill the tank initially. To begin with I
also used this water to do the water changes. Now the tank is
established, I rarely do water changes but top up with 2 litres
of water every week (it's a 70l tank). I top up with dechlorinated
tap water which hasn't been peat filtered, but this seems to
counteract the fact that as I don't do water changes often, the
tank pH and KH will gradually creep down over time. I'm not
recommending this way - it seems to work for me, and the plants
have gone nuts and more than eat up the nitrites, and I use
carbon filtration for the DOCs and to keep the water crystal clear.
So it works for me. I feel I should recommend that you keep up
with water changes, adding the tap/peat filtered mix each time,
and testing tank's pH/KH afterwards each time. However personally
I find things more stable the way they are now.

My tank is also planted, and has mopani for the bristlenose pleco.

Hope that helps.
--
Flash . o O ( www.gorge.org )

[Bob]

Hey Flash,

You say you rarely do water changes...how often do you do water changes on
the tank...and what is the longest you've ever gone without a change...and
also what % of the water do you change. Thanks for the info. I am
wondering what the longest you have had success with is.

Bob

[Flash Wilson]

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 04:48:42 GMT, Bob > wrote:
>Hey Flash,

Hiya,

>You say you rarely do water changes...how often do you do water changes on
>the tank...and what is the longest you've ever gone without a change...and
>also what % of the water do you change. Thanks for the info. I am
>wondering what the longest you have had success with is.

I shall tell you but *it's not what is recommended and I'm not recommending
it or suggesting that it's clever!* In fact I have two reasons for not
changing water often, one is I don't have a schedule for it (and I ought
to get more organised so I actually record when changes were made) and
the other is that I'm not able to lift much. My knee problem has got a bit
worse since I started keeping fish and so I need someone to be around
to lift a bucketful of water for me - and when my partner gets home the
last thing he wants to do is chores.

Anyway, excuses over with...

I have two tanks. The sof****er one is a Juwel Rekord 70 (70 litres,
inbuilt filter) and that's the one I rarely change water in. I have
had it set up like that for... *checks* about ten months. Before that
it was my only tank and contained barbs, and a few months previous
it had moved house. So anyway, about ten months. Every week or two
I top up with a jugful of water (2 litres), trim plants and clean
algae from the front glass, and check the filter pads.

I had a problem after a few months when I was still using soft
water to top the tank up; the pH crashed and I added baking soda
until the KH was back up to 2-3 and the pH recovered. Since then
I only top up with tap water and it all seems to work fine.

The fish are cardinals, harlequin and baby scissortail rasboras,
black neon tetras and a bristlenose ancistrus.

I also have a 200 litre tank, which has only ever been filled with
tap water. I do a 10% water change every week or two with my 2 litre
jug going back and forth to the sink. This tank contains live
plants, and two large catfish, a pangass cat, 3 barbs, 4 kribs,
2 rams and 3 clown loaches. (Yep, quite a mix...) All seem fine.

After a few months the filtration in this tank wasn't enough and
I added an internal filter (fluval 3) to complement the filter I
was given with the tank - a fluval 204. Every couple of weeks I
need to clean out the plant bits from the intake areas to each
filter and I do one one week, the other a week later.

I had a problem when someone was burning tar outside the house and
the fumes came in, the fish looked sick and I couldn't figure why
- as soon as I aerated the house they recovered. No other problems.

I do have two bettas in 2.25 litre tanks but they are quite separate
and I change their water weekly without fail.

So I hope that explained what I have and what works for me. I would
add I use carbon in the filters of both tanks (which helps reduce
DOCs) and live plants (to reduce nitrate). I wouldn't wish to go
against the good general advice of regular water changes for others!

--
. ( www.gorge.org/fish )
\_____)\_____ O
/--v____ __`< . o
)/

[NetMax]

"Nemo" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,

<snipped intro/specs>

> Having said all of this, here are some questions. More may follow:
>
> - Are neon tetra sensitive to dissolved organics?

Depending on who you speak to, Neons are either very hardy or very
fragile (no one thinks they are average ;~). Suffice to say that the
smaller the fish, the more trouble it will have adjusting to different
water parameters. Which parameters and how suceptible is always a topic
of disscusion, and very influenced by what water the fish were raised in.

Do they have special
> requirements with respect to changing the carbon filter more
frequently?
> - Is it necessary to lower the pH to 7.0?

I've found that they can do fine in 7.6pH (but soft water), but their
acclimation period is a little long, and my results vary. Once
acclimated, they do fine. A pH of 7.8 would be pushing my luck, and I
haven't tried them above 6dgH or above 4dkH.

> - What is the safest way to soften the water in a planted tank?

The mopani & plants will soften the water, though usually not
significantly. If your gH/kH is low, then CO2 injection brings the pH
down nicely. If your gH/kH is moderate, then peat pre-filtering is often
used. If your gH/kH is high to very high, then dilution is more
practical (RO, DI or rainwater). Keep in mind that just lowering the pH
will acidify the water, and not soften it (though in practice both are
usually influenced). Your parameter of interest is gH (measure of
hardness), and then your kH (buffer) will determine how easy it is to
change, and what the pH naturally levels at.

NetMax

> Many thanks

[Nemo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...

> I've found that they can do fine in 7.6pH (but soft water), but their
> acclimation period is a little long, and my results vary.

Could you please suggest an acclimation procedure and any relevant
acclimation techniques?

Thanks NetMax!

[RedForeman ©®]

You didn't ask me, but I'll throw my $.02 in here anyway... I've had good
luck with sensitive fish by turning off lights, floating the bag for an
hour, then open the bag and put a couple cups of your tank water in the bag,
give a quick puff back in bag to re-inflate it a bit, reseal and float
another 30-45min. I usually skip the feeding the first couple hours unless
transport was longer than normal, and resume normal activity the next day...

I'll be getting some neons in a week or so, so I was following this thread
hoping NetMax would suggest or give better ideas...

--
RedForeman ©®


"Nemo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I've found that they can do fine in 7.6pH (but soft water), but their
> > acclimation period is a little long, and my results vary.
>
> Could you please suggest an acclimation procedure and any relevant
> acclimation techniques?
>
> Thanks NetMax!
>
>

[NetMax]

"Nemo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I've found that they can do fine in 7.6pH (but soft water), but their
> > acclimation period is a little long, and my results vary.
>
> Could you please suggest an acclimation procedure and any relevant
> acclimation techniques?
>
> Thanks NetMax!

First step is to familiarize yourself with your LFS's water in their Neon
tank, and adjust your parameters accordingly as possible. This includes
your temperature and NO3 mostly. If pH & gH are different, then use your
discretion as to how to proceed. Remember, .25pH/day, <40ppm NO3 change
& soft to hard water is easier than hard to soft. If you water
differences are not extreme, the following is what I do.

i) have LFS lightly stock the bags (maybe 3 or 4 Neons per bag).
ii) feed tank inhabitants (hungry fish are too nosy)
iii) turn off tank lights
iv) open bag and roll back the top so that it floats
v) after floating 10 minutes, add a cup of tank water
vi) repeat step v) until bag is full and then net & move fishes in

Adjust your procedure as needed. Long trips and I get fresh water in
faster, or I'll add an airstone etc. Sometimes I'll drip-line fill the
bag with tank water. hth
NetMax

[Bob]

Thanks for the info Flash, I would have never guessed that would be possible
from most of what I've read.

[EGMono]

In article >, "NetMax"
> writes:

>If your gH/kH is high to very high, then dilution is more
>practical (RO, DI or rainwater).

I read somewhere (you know what that equals! :P ) that you shouldn't use
rainwater in your aquarium. Can you elaborate why it's ok? I was under the
presumption that rainwater was bad because of dissolved substances, but I know
little about the matter.
--
E.G.Mono

[NetMax]

"EGMono" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "NetMax"
> > writes:
>
> >If your gH/kH is high to very high, then dilution is more
> >practical (RO, DI or rainwater).
>
> I read somewhere (you know what that equals! :P ) that you shouldn't
use
> rainwater in your aquarium. Can you elaborate why it's ok? I was under
the
> presumption that rainwater was bad because of dissolved substances, but
I know
> little about the matter.
> --
> E.G.Mono
>

AFAIK, rainwater should not be used directly, and there is a problem with
the initial water collection. Regarding collection, in the city, the
first few minutes of rainfall 'scrubs' a lot of pollutants out of the
air, so this water should not be used. In the city or country, the rain
water collection system will also add some materials which might be
undesirable (plant matter, minerals, dust etc). Rain water collection
systems usually work best when they automatically switch over after a
certain quantity of water is collected (ie: discard the first gallon,
then switch over to a rain barrel for storage).

It should not be used directly as it is too mineral-poor to sustain life.
Typically, the water is left to age and then used to cut water from a
mineral-rich source to obtain the right mixture. This requires a rain
barrel and then a holding tank (ie: to mix soft rain water with hard
well-water). Sometimes the rainwater is filtered through carbon (for
pollutants) and then peat (not to soften it, but to condition it). The
water is then left in the holding tank until it is stable, and ready for
use in water changes. Snowmelt is similarly processed, with a heated
rain barrel, and lots of snow (filling it more than once). With a degree
of automation, rainwater collection can be made practical, but otherwise,
it (and snowmelt) is a significant amount of work for a regular supply of
water. River water is more easily massaged into what fish need, or to
dilute well-water. As always, ymmv depending on the size of your tank,
the amount of water needed and your proximity to various water sources.
hth

NetMax