UGF Question

[james mitchell]

I've read alot on the internet about the dangers of having an UGF and not
vacuuming the gravel regularly. The basic idea is that if not vacuumed, the
gravel will fill with ditritus and develop dead spots. Anarobic bacteria
will grow in the dead spots and produce toxic gases. I understand and do
not question this idea.

The question I have is why it is more dangerous to not gravel vacuum with an
UGF than without? It seems to me dead spots with ditritus will exist in
either case, feeding anarobic bacteria, producing the same toxic gases.
Also, isn't a gravel bed without an UGF essentially anarobic throughout the
bed? Just wondering.

Jim

[Rick]

"james mitchell" > wrote in message
om...
> I've read alot on the internet about the dangers of having an UGF and not
> vacuuming the gravel regularly. The basic idea is that if not vacuumed,
the
> gravel will fill with ditritus and develop dead spots. Anarobic bacteria
> will grow in the dead spots and produce toxic gases. I understand and do
> not question this idea.
>
> The question I have is why it is more dangerous to not gravel vacuum with
an
> UGF than without? It seems to me dead spots with ditritus will exist in
> either case, feeding anarobic bacteria, producing the same toxic gases.
> Also, isn't a gravel bed without an UGF essentially anarobic throughout
the
> bed? Just wondering.
>
> Jim
>
most cases of bacteria forming in substrate is found in sand tanks or those
with very fine gravel that compacts tightly preventing anytype of water
movement in it. With a UGF you should gently stir up the gravel periodically
which allows the ditritus to be pulled through the gravel or vacuumed out
when you do a gravel vac. When I had my UGF I would remove the power head
and simply insert a siphon tube down the tube and siphon out some of the
detritus that was under the plates.

Rick

[NetMax]

"james mitchell" > wrote in message
om...
> I've read alot on the internet about the dangers of having an UGF and
not
> vacuuming the gravel regularly. The basic idea is that if not
vacuumed, the
> gravel will fill with ditritus and develop dead spots. Anarobic
bacteria
> will grow in the dead spots and produce toxic gases. I understand and
do
> not question this idea.
>
> The question I have is why it is more dangerous to not gravel vacuum
with an
> UGF than without? It seems to me dead spots with ditritus will exist in
> either case, feeding anarobic bacteria, producing the same toxic gases.
> Also, isn't a gravel bed without an UGF essentially anarobic throughout
the
> bed? Just wondering.
>
> Jim

Without a UGF pulling the detritus in (and deeper down), some debris will
roll over the substrate and get picked up by conventional filters.
Having a combination of filters (conventional & UGF) is sometimes a
useful arrangement. Using only a UGF means all detritus will be
collected. How critical this is depends on your fish load. For a
lightly loaded tank of small fish, extended exclusive UGF operation
should not be a concern (with the occasional vacuuming). For a heavily
loaded tank with larger fish, gravel vacuuming is a serious concern (with
or without a UGF).

The problem which causes us the most grief IMO, is the resultant gases
when they have been given an opportunity to accumulate, and not the
anaerobic bacteria themselves. While all substrates will have pockets of
anaerobic activity, it is only when there is a large enough collection of
detritus that the gases are trapped and begin accumulating. Then the
substrate is accidentally disturbed, the gases released, and the fish
experience severe stress and even death.

Operating with a UGF, potentially accelerates the conditions where the
gases can get trapped, however the water movement through the gravel
helps dissipate the gases harmlessly. Operating without a UGF will
(comparatively) accumulate less detritus, but the lack of water movement
will create better conditions for the anaerobic bacteria to prosper,
increasing your chances of the sulphide gases occurring. Which is better
(operating with or without a UGF (or a RUGF)) depends on your
application, and if you do regular gravel vacuuming, it should not make
much difference (at least from an anaerobic concern).

Knowing that all these gases are harmful, and rotting debris adds DOCs,
erodes your kH and can drag your pH down, the trend has been to remove
the detritus out of the aquarium as quickly as possible. Keep in mind
that these trends are partially like women's fashions gathering lots of
momentum from people who heard this & that and now it becomes the 'rule'
;~), however - the trends are also much more scientifically based, so
however fantastic your last filter was, there is better design coming
(albeit slowly, like everything else in aquaria). To summarize, the
trend is too remove the detritus using large media area with slow moving
water, and this favours wet/dry filters and canister filters. Keep in
mind that if you gravel vacuum regularly, a UGF also uses a large media
area with slow moving water ;~) *I had to throw that one in*.

Knowing the limitations and features of the different filter types, your
maintenance routine, and your fish loading requirements, and you can set
up the best system for your application. hth

NetMax

[Dinky]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>


Is anyone else here convinced that Netmax is a god?
<eg>

billy

[D&M]

> Then the
> substrate is accidentally disturbed, the gases released, and the fish
> experience severe stress and even death.

I hope that isn't a common occuring problem, severe stress/death.
I got a big problem with anarobic bacteria, have for a long time, largly in
areas with plants, or thicker gravel areas. Doesn't take long to form. To
date, haven't had any problems fishwise, tank ocassionally "farts" with the
weather loach ripping up the gravel.
But it is still a problem I often wonder about.
So far, as a band aid, I keep the tank heavily airated. Doesn't solve the
problem though.

[coelacanth]

Is anyone deluded that He isn't????
>
> Is anyone else here convinced that Netmax is a god?
> <eg>
>
> billy
>
>

[STEELHEAD]

Never vacuum the gravel. good filtration is all you need.
"james mitchell" > wrote in message
om...
> I've read alot on the internet about the dangers of having an UGF and not
> vacuuming the gravel regularly. The basic idea is that if not vacuumed,
the
> gravel will fill with ditritus and develop dead spots. Anarobic bacteria
> will grow in the dead spots and produce toxic gases. I understand and do
> not question this idea.
>
> The question I have is why it is more dangerous to not gravel vacuum with
an
> UGF than without? It seems to me dead spots with ditritus will exist in
> either case, feeding anarobic bacteria, producing the same toxic gases.
> Also, isn't a gravel bed without an UGF essentially anarobic throughout
the
> bed? Just wondering.
>
> Jim
>
>

[Happy'Cam'per]

What blasphemy :)

If Netmax was our God, would we all be known as Netmaxonites? :)
I too am most humbled by Netmax's knowledge of our hobby. I take a bow.
Thanks for all your help dood.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**



"Dinky" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
>
> Is anyone else here convinced that Netmax is a god?
> <eg>
>
> billy
>
>

[Flash Wilson]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:15:00 +0200, Happy'Cam'per > wrote:
>If Netmax was our God, would we all be known as Netmaxonites? :)
>I too am most humbled by Netmax's knowledge of our hobby. I take a bow.
>Thanks for all your help dood.

You know, the other day my partner and I were discussing where in
the world we wanted to visit. Apart from all the places we wanted
to go, my partner suggested "America. Just so we can say yes, we've
been there, and yes, it was awful! Perhaps we could go to Canada
and just spend a day in the US from there." And I said "In that
case, I want to visit Netmax's shop!"

So Netmax-worship is all-pervasive.

But we shouldn't forget Jim Brown either... I miss his expertise.

--
Flash Wilson
http://www.gorge.org
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I am a hostage to my .inbox.

[NetMax]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:15:00 +0200, Happy'Cam'per > wrote:
<snip>

> You know, the other day my partner and I were discussing where in
> the world we wanted to visit. Apart from all the places we wanted
> to go, my partner suggested "America. Just so we can say yes, we've
> been there, and yes, it was awful! Perhaps we could go to Canada
> and just spend a day in the US from there." And I said "In that
> case, I want to visit Netmax's shop!"

I'd love to have you visit, Flash. You might even find America isn't
that bad ;~) I'm told that our West coast (Vancouver, Victoria) is not
unlike the weather in much of the UK. However, Ottawa has no
uncertainties about the weather, when it's winter, there is no doubt (or
we wouldn't be able to skate on the canal that crosses the city).

<snip>

> But we shouldn't forget Jim Brown either... I miss his expertise.

Thanks for mentioning Jim. I still have watched threads where I was in
the middle of a discussion with him (I suppose I should de-select them).
You would have liked him. He was a big guy with a big heart.

NetMax

> --
> Flash Wilson
> http://www.gorge.org
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> I am a hostage to my .inbox.

[RedForeman ©®]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
>
> "Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
> > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:15:00 +0200, Happy'Cam'per > wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > You know, the other day my partner and I were discussing where in
> > the world we wanted to visit. Apart from all the places we wanted
> > to go, my partner suggested "America. Just so we can say yes, we've
> > been there, and yes, it was awful! Perhaps we could go to Canada
> > and just spend a day in the US from there." And I said "In that
> > case, I want to visit Netmax's shop!"
>
> I'd love to have you visit, Flash. You might even find America isn't
> that bad ;~) I'm told that our West coast (Vancouver, Victoria) is not
> unlike the weather in much of the UK. However, Ottawa has no
> uncertainties about the weather, when it's winter, there is no doubt (or
> we wouldn't be able to skate on the canal that crosses the city).
>
> <snip>
>
> > But we shouldn't forget Jim Brown either... I miss his expertise.
>
> Thanks for mentioning Jim. I still have watched threads where I was in
> the middle of a discussion with him (I suppose I should de-select them).
> You would have liked him. He was a big guy with a big heart.
>
> NetMax

Ahh Jim Brown... if we could have bottled up what he knew, we'd run out of
glass...

NetMax, me and the wife have been flirting with a trip to Ontario, and with
enough enthusiasm, we just might have to slate a visit, and a handshake....
one of these days...

[NetMax]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> >
> > "Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
> > > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:15:00 +0200, Happy'Cam'per > wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > > You know, the other day my partner and I were discussing where in
> > > the world we wanted to visit. Apart from all the places we wanted
> > > to go, my partner suggested "America. Just so we can say yes, we've
> > > been there, and yes, it was awful! Perhaps we could go to Canada
> > > and just spend a day in the US from there." And I said "In that
> > > case, I want to visit Netmax's shop!"
> >
> > I'd love to have you visit, Flash. You might even find America isn't
> > that bad ;~) I'm told that our West coast (Vancouver, Victoria) is
not
> > unlike the weather in much of the UK. However, Ottawa has no
> > uncertainties about the weather, when it's winter, there is no doubt
(or
> > we wouldn't be able to skate on the canal that crosses the city).
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > But we shouldn't forget Jim Brown either... I miss his expertise.
> >
> > Thanks for mentioning Jim. I still have watched threads where I was
in
> > the middle of a discussion with him (I suppose I should de-select
them).
> > You would have liked him. He was a big guy with a big heart.
> >
> > NetMax
>
> Ahh Jim Brown... if we could have bottled up what he knew, we'd run out
of
> glass...
>
> NetMax, me and the wife have been flirting with a trip to Ontario, and
with
> enough enthusiasm, we just might have to slate a visit, and a
handshake....
> one of these days...

:o) Send me an email for directions when you are planning the trip. I'm
off a main highway on the south-west side of the city.

NetMax

[RedForeman ©®]

Roger.... Will do... Thanks.

--
RedForeman ©®


"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > >
> > > "Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
> > > > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:15:00 +0200, Happy'Cam'per > wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > You know, the other day my partner and I were discussing where in
> > > > the world we wanted to visit. Apart from all the places we wanted
> > > > to go, my partner suggested "America. Just so we can say yes, we've
> > > > been there, and yes, it was awful! Perhaps we could go to Canada
> > > > and just spend a day in the US from there." And I said "In that
> > > > case, I want to visit Netmax's shop!"
> > >
> > > I'd love to have you visit, Flash. You might even find America isn't
> > > that bad ;~) I'm told that our West coast (Vancouver, Victoria) is
> not
> > > unlike the weather in much of the UK. However, Ottawa has no
> > > uncertainties about the weather, when it's winter, there is no doubt
> (or
> > > we wouldn't be able to skate on the canal that crosses the city).
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > But we shouldn't forget Jim Brown either... I miss his expertise.
> > >
> > > Thanks for mentioning Jim. I still have watched threads where I was
> in
> > > the middle of a discussion with him (I suppose I should de-select
> them).
> > > You would have liked him. He was a big guy with a big heart.
> > >
> > > NetMax
> >
> > Ahh Jim Brown... if we could have bottled up what he knew, we'd run out
> of
> > glass...
> >
> > NetMax, me and the wife have been flirting with a trip to Ontario, and
> with
> > enough enthusiasm, we just might have to slate a visit, and a
> handshake....
> > one of these days...
>
> :o) Send me an email for directions when you are planning the trip. I'm
> off a main highway on the south-west side of the city.
>
> NetMax
>
>