remove UGF and start over?

[TR]

Should I remove my UGF and start over?
I've just recently started my first tank (20G High). Its been up about 3
weeks now. I have 2 cory catfish and 2 otoclinus (plan to add some mollies
and danios). So far they seem happy and alive, but I am having trouble
keeping the water and gravel clean.
I put in a UGF (using airstones in the risers)and also have a whisper
filter. After getting it all setup I found information suggesting that maybe
a UGF was not a good idea and just a thin gravel layer is sufficient. And it
certainly makes sense to me. I am having trouble vacuuming the gravel
adequately before I have removed 20% of the water. I may be feeding the fish
too much, but I am having trouble gauging how much to feed them since I
hardly ever see them actually eat anything I put in. There is no visible
algae or anything, but water is often cloudy and nitrites and ammonia test
high.

I'm tempted to pull out the UGF and just have a small amount of gravel on
the bottom. Keeping in mind that i'm a newbie, and interested in making
maintenance as easy as possible, would this be a good idea? Maybe It was
just a matter of getting the cycling started, but in the long run it sounds
like it would be easier to keep the tank clean without a UGF and thick
gravel.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Tom

[Dinky]

"TR" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Should I remove my UGF and start over?
> I've just recently started my first tank (20G High). Its been up about 3
> weeks now. I have 2 cory catfish and 2 otoclinus (plan to add some mollies
> and danios). So far they seem happy and alive, but I am having trouble
> keeping the water and gravel clean.
> I put in a UGF (using airstones in the risers)and also have a whisper
> filter. After getting it all setup I found information suggesting that
maybe
> a UGF was not a good idea and just a thin gravel layer is sufficient. And
it
> certainly makes sense to me. I am having trouble vacuuming the gravel
> adequately before I have removed 20% of the water. I may be feeding the
fish
> too much, but I am having trouble gauging how much to feed them since I
> hardly ever see them actually eat anything I put in. There is no visible
> algae or anything, but water is often cloudy and nitrites and ammonia test
> high.
>
> I'm tempted to pull out the UGF and just have a small amount of gravel on
> the bottom. Keeping in mind that i'm a newbie, and interested in making
> maintenance as easy as possible, would this be a good idea? Maybe It was
> just a matter of getting the cycling started, but in the long run it
sounds
> like it would be easier to keep the tank clean without a UGF and thick
> gravel.
> Any suggestions?
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
>

Myself, I like the combination of a UGF and a power filter. I would leave
it. If you've only had the tank up for 3 weeks, there is no reason it should
be getting that dirty, you are are *definately* overfeeding, and
contributing to the poisons in the water, ammonia and nitrite. Since all you
have in the tank are bottom feeders, seeing them eat may to be difficult
since they're gorged on all the half-rotted food in the gravel. . From now
on, the tiniest pinch of food per day should do. Do not add any other fish
until ammonia and nitrites are steady at zero.
As for the water coming out too fast, I generally will pinch or bend the
tube to slow the flow rate, allowing me to do more vacuuming while removing
less water.
May I direct you to the krib FAQ? Very good reading for the newbie, I
spend a lot of time there myself, still. http://faq.thekrib.com/begin.html

Be sure to read the section on cycling.

Please keep us up to date, and ask any other questions you may have.
Good luck!

billy

[james mitchell]

> Myself, I like the combination of a UGF and a power filter. I would leave
> it. If you've only had the tank up for 3 weeks, there is no reason it
should
> be getting that dirty, you are are *definately* overfeeding, and
> contributing to the poisons in the water, ammonia and nitrite.
> As for the water coming out too fast, I generally will pinch or bend
the
> tube to slow the flow rate, allowing me to do more vacuuming while
removing
> less water.

I agree. I would leave it in unless you plan on having a lot of live
plants. Most power filters do not have a high amount of filter surface area
for bio-filtration. This is where the combination of UGF with the power
filter works well. If your water is cloudy, it's because your tank is new
and not cycled, NOT because of the UGF. If anything, the UGF will make your
water more clear with the increase in bio-filtration (after the tank
finishes cycling). If you can't vacuum the entire substrate with 20% water
change, do half one week and the other half the next. This is what I do
with my 90G and it works well.

Vacuuming the gravel shouldn't take more than about 15 minutes weekly with a
20G tank. Regardless of the UGF, you need to vacuum the gravel to keep the
tank healthy.

Also, check out the earlier thread on UGF filters, "UGF Question". It
contains some good information. Also, do a google group search if you
haven't already.

HTH,
Jim

[E.A. Lovecraft]

> Should I remove my UGF and start over?

I don't think so. Whether you have an UGF or not, you still have to clean
the substrate.

It can be a trick to get your gravel vac through the entire substrate bed in
a small tank before you've drawn out all the water you want. Just keep in
mind that with an UGF, you don't need to vacuum out everything in one water
change.

You'll eventually notice certain areas where the waste buildup is higher,
and you can focus more attention there.

UGFs get a bad rap these days, but don't forget that they were the mainstay
of aquarium filtration for decades; not because that was all that was
available, but because they work.

[NetMax]

"TR" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Should I remove my UGF and start over?
> I've just recently started my first tank (20G High). Its been up about
3
> weeks now.
<snip>

Step away from the aquarium ;~) Cloudy water is par for the course in a
cycling tank. Focus on your water parameters for the first 4 to 6 weeks
(until your nitrites are zero). Avoid the temptation to muck with the
tank. Water changes and water tests are all you should be doing. Leave
all the filters alone. Don't add more fish. Feed sparingly (pretend
their stomach is the size of their eyes until the tank is cycled). You
are allowed to add natural plants anytime (if you have proper lighting to
support them).

That's my advice. Personally, I tend to give my tanks about 3 months
before I make any changes. That lets everyone get settled in nicely.
Too many problems come as a result of mucking about with the best
intentions. While you're waiting, you could spend some time researching
odds & ends to better familiarize yourself (ie: pros/cons of UGFs).

cheers
NetMax

> Any suggestions?
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
>

[TR]

Hi,
Thanks for the prompt reply (you and everyone else)
I bought the UGF based on my 'old' idea that UGF's were essential. Its a
long story, but I actually got the
tank/hood/light/filter/heater/gravel/tankstand 12 YEARS AGO as a gift from
my wife (to be). All these years we kept it as a dry "decorative" tank,
collecting ceramic and glass fish on vacation and suspending them in the
tank. Quite nice and very low maintenance!
I've decided to stay with the UGF after reading some other comments and
reviewing the FAQ. Pointing out that I don't have to clean everything each
time was helpful.
Thanks!
Tom


"E.A. Lovecraft" > wrote in message
...
> > Should I remove my UGF and start over?
>
> I don't think so. Whether you have an UGF or not, you still have to clean
> the substrate.
>
> It can be a trick to get your gravel vac through the entire substrate bed
in
> a small tank before you've drawn out all the water you want. Just keep in
> mind that with an UGF, you don't need to vacuum out everything in one
water
> change.
>
> You'll eventually notice certain areas where the waste buildup is higher,
> and you can focus more attention there.
>
> UGFs get a bad rap these days, but don't forget that they were the
mainstay
> of aquarium filtration for decades; not because that was all that was
> available, but because they work.
>
>

[TR]

Hi,
Thanks for the prompt reply (you and everyone else)
I've decided to stay with the UGF after reading all the comments and
reviewing the FAQ. Also, in doing the reading, I realized you are right,
nothing I'm experiencing is out of the ordinary for a new tank (whew). Also,
the recent water changes seemed to have helped, and really the water is best
described as hazy rather than cloudy the past week.
I'll continue to vacuum the gravel every 2-3 days, and reduce feeding.
I had started using some 'Cycle' ( two doses so far) and I hope that will
help. My fish are all alive, they swim around and aren't gasping for air, so
thats a good sign huh? Also it seems perhaps I should have started with
something other than algae eaters and bottom feeders, since I had no algae.
I'll keep testing, changing water, and wait on the new fish. I plan to be in
this for the long haul ( I have some kids who are delighted with Daddy's
fish tank) so my main concern was that opting for a UGF might make success a
little more difficult. I don't mind doing the maintenance, but I just don't
want a tank where your friends come to visit and then when you leave the
room they say to each other "those poor fish..."

One question about water quality: I really got alarmed when I read on one
site that when bubbles form and don't pop on the water surface thats a big
problem. About 7-10 days after I started thats what I saw. I immediatly
ramped up the gravel cleaning and partial water changes to every two days.
Its much better now. But what exactly does this kind of filmy/bubbly water
indicate? Nitrates/ites? Ammonia? or is just 'bad' a sufficient explanation?

Thanks,
Tom


"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> Step away from the aquarium ;~) Cloudy water is par for the course in a
> cycling tank. Focus on your water parameters for the first 4 to 6 weeks
> (until your nitrites are zero). Avoid the temptation to muck with the
> tank. Water changes and water tests are all you should be doing. Leave
> all the filters alone. Don't add more fish. Feed sparingly (pretend
> their stomach is the size of their eyes until the tank is cycled). You
> are allowed to add natural plants anytime (if you have proper lighting to
> support them).
>
> That's my advice. Personally, I tend to give my tanks about 3 months
> before I make any changes. That lets everyone get settled in nicely.
> Too many problems come as a result of mucking about with the best
> intentions. While you're waiting, you could spend some time researching
> odds & ends to better familiarize yourself (ie: pros/cons of UGFs).
>
> cheers
> NetMax
>
> > Any suggestions?
> > Thanks,
> > Tom

[NetMax]

midposted...

"TR" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi,
> Thanks for the prompt reply (you and everyone else)
> I've decided to stay with the UGF after reading all the comments and
> reviewing the FAQ. Also, in doing the reading, I realized you are
right,
> nothing I'm experiencing is out of the ordinary for a new tank (whew).
Also,
> the recent water changes seemed to have helped, and really the water is
best
> described as hazy rather than cloudy the past week.

Actually, fish in their normal environment live with all sorts of
particuates and algae blooms. The requirement for crystal clear water is
human. Fish don't seem particularly distressed, some even prefering the
extra privacy cloudy water provides ;~)

> I'll continue to vacuum the gravel every 2-3 days, and reduce feeding.
> I had started using some 'Cycle' ( two doses so far) and I hope that
will
> help.

Bacteria starter will decrease the amplitude of the NH3/NO2 spikes, and
might even shorten the overall cycling period, but don't let your guard
down.

My fish are all alive, they swim around and aren't gasping for air, so
> thats a good sign huh? Also it seems perhaps I should have started with
> something other than algae eaters and bottom feeders, since I had no
algae.

Yes, drop in an algae wafer and a bottom feeder tablet every 2nd day, and
they should be fine.

> I'll keep testing, changing water, and wait on the new fish. I plan to
be in
> this for the long haul ( I have some kids who are delighted with
Daddy's
> fish tank) so my main concern was that opting for a UGF might make
success a
> little more difficult. I don't mind doing the maintenance, but I just
don't
> want a tank where your friends come to visit and then when you leave
the
> room they say to each other "those poor fish..."
>
> One question about water quality: I really got alarmed when I read on
one
> site that when bubbles form and don't pop on the water surface thats a
big
> problem.

You have to start believing less and reading more ;~) Seriously though,
a lot of what is circulated on the net is empirical evidence. Someone
saw that something worked for them, so it must be great, -but- everything
is application dependant, and sometimes the attributed fix was
coincidental. The best intentioned advice can take you down the wrong
road.

About 7-10 days after I started thats what I saw. I immediatly
> ramped up the gravel cleaning and partial water changes to every two
days.
> Its much better now. But what exactly does this kind of filmy/bubbly
water
> indicate? Nitrates/ites? Ammonia? or is just 'bad' a sufficient
explanation?

Regarding your air bubbles not popping, research 'protein layer'. This
is what is building up on the water surface. It's harmless and often
associated with planted tanks (but occurs with all tanks). It comes from
a variety of sources (in a non-planted tank, fish food is the major
starting contributer). If it really bugs you (sometimes they take on a
nice oil-slick sheen ;~), either point your filter output upwards, or add
an airstone (to break it up), or drop a sheet of un-inked newspaper (sold
for packing dishes for moving) on the surface and pull it out (it will
absorb most of the film on the water). Most people ignore it, and some
fish eat it. It's part of your tank's natural development, which you
learn to mostly leave alone.

One of many reliable sources of information is :
http://www.thekrib.com/
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin.html
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

cheers
NetMax

> Thanks,
> Tom
>
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Step away from the aquarium ;~) Cloudy water is par for the course
in a
> > cycling tank. Focus on your water parameters for the first 4 to 6
weeks
> > (until your nitrites are zero). Avoid the temptation to muck with
the
> > tank. Water changes and water tests are all you should be doing.
Leave
> > all the filters alone. Don't add more fish. Feed sparingly (pretend
> > their stomach is the size of their eyes until the tank is cycled).
You
> > are allowed to add natural plants anytime (if you have proper
lighting to
> > support them).
> >
> > That's my advice. Personally, I tend to give my tanks about 3 months
> > before I make any changes. That lets everyone get settled in nicely.
> > Too many problems come as a result of mucking about with the best
> > intentions. While you're waiting, you could spend some time
researching
> > odds & ends to better familiarize yourself (ie: pros/cons of UGFs).
> >
> > cheers
> > NetMax
> >
> > > Any suggestions?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Tom
>
>

[Bassett]

I use UGF in my tanks and nothing else, Tanks are planted, I vacuum
about one a week, and replace any water lost in the vacuuming,
With feeding, my fish know when I,m coming with the food, normally once a
day, and if the food's not all gone in under two minutes, I,m ether feeding
too much, of something's very wrong.

With your cloudy water,, did you thoughly wash your gravel first.


bassett

"TR" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi,
> Thanks for the prompt reply (you and everyone else)
> I've decided to stay with the UGF after reading all the comments and
> reviewing the FAQ. Also, in doing the reading, I realized you are right,
> nothing I'm experiencing is out of the ordinary for a new tank (whew).
Also,
> the recent water changes seemed to have helped, and really the water is
best
> described as hazy rather than cloudy the past week.
> I'll continue to vacuum the gravel every 2-3 days, and reduce feeding.
> I had started using some 'Cycle' ( two doses so far) and I hope that will
> help. My fish are all alive, they swim around and aren't gasping for air,
so
> thats a good sign huh? Also it seems perhaps I should have started with
> something other than algae eaters and bottom feeders, since I had no
algae.
> I'll keep testing, changing water, and wait on the new fish. I plan to be
in
> this for the long haul ( I have some kids who are delighted with Daddy's
> fish tank) so my main concern was that opting for a UGF might make success
a
> little more difficult. I don't mind doing the maintenance, but I just
don't
> want a tank where your friends come to visit and then when you leave the
> room they say to each other "those poor fish..."
>
> One question about water quality: I really got alarmed when I read on one
> site that when bubbles form and don't pop on the water surface thats a big
> problem. About 7-10 days after I started thats what I saw. I immediatly
> ramped up the gravel cleaning and partial water changes to every two days.
> Its much better now. But what exactly does this kind of filmy/bubbly water
> indicate? Nitrates/ites? Ammonia? or is just 'bad' a sufficient
explanation?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Step away from the aquarium ;~) Cloudy water is par for the course in a
> > cycling tank. Focus on your water parameters for the first 4 to 6 weeks
> > (until your nitrites are zero). Avoid the temptation to muck with the
> > tank. Water changes and water tests are all you should be doing. Leave
> > all the filters alone. Don't add more fish. Feed sparingly (pretend
> > their stomach is the size of their eyes until the tank is cycled). You
> > are allowed to add natural plants anytime (if you have proper lighting
to
> > support them).
> >
> > That's my advice. Personally, I tend to give my tanks about 3 months
> > before I make any changes. That lets everyone get settled in nicely.
> > Too many problems come as a result of mucking about with the best
> > intentions. While you're waiting, you could spend some time researching
> > odds & ends to better familiarize yourself (ie: pros/cons of UGFs).
> >
> > cheers
> > NetMax
> >
> > > Any suggestions?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Tom
>
>

[Texas Yankee]

I'd try going with a bare-bottom tank - no gravel at all. I've been there
for two years now - the water is always crystal clear, the water chemistry
is always OK, and maintenance is a lot easier on me.

On my 105 gallon, I have two Emperor 400s, two powerheads with sponge
filters and air injection, and LOTS of holy rock - the fish breed and seem
fine.

They have never complained about the lack of gravel!


"TR" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Should I remove my UGF and start over?
> I've just recently started my first tank (20G High). Its been up about 3
> weeks now. I have 2 cory catfish and 2 otoclinus (plan to add some mollies
> and danios). So far they seem happy and alive, but I am having trouble
> keeping the water and gravel clean.
> I put in a UGF (using airstones in the risers)and also have a whisper
> filter. After getting it all setup I found information suggesting that
maybe
> a UGF was not a good idea and just a thin gravel layer is sufficient. And
it
> certainly makes sense to me. I am having trouble vacuuming the gravel
> adequately before I have removed 20% of the water. I may be feeding the
fish
> too much, but I am having trouble gauging how much to feed them since I
> hardly ever see them actually eat anything I put in. There is no visible
> algae or anything, but water is often cloudy and nitrites and ammonia test
> high.
>
> I'm tempted to pull out the UGF and just have a small amount of gravel on
> the bottom. Keeping in mind that i'm a newbie, and interested in making
> maintenance as easy as possible, would this be a good idea? Maybe It was
> just a matter of getting the cycling started, but in the long run it
sounds
> like it would be easier to keep the tank clean without a UGF and thick
> gravel.
> Any suggestions?
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
>