Where's the nitrate?

[Karen Garza]

There is little to no nitrate present in my three tanks. I consider all
three of them to be fully cycled. Shouldn't there be a small amount of
nitrate? Are the plants using up what little nitrate there is?

tank 1: 20 gallon freshwater, ammonia 0, nitrite 0. nitrate 0, ph 7.6.
alkalinity med/low. contains one 2.5 inch tetra, one 2.5 inch blue
gourami, one 3.5 inch kuhli loach, one 4 inch gold algae eater, one 1.5
inch peppered cory, two 1.5 inch peppered corys, 5 small plants.

tank 2: 20 gallon freshwater, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, ph 7.6,
alkalinity med., contains four 1.5 inch platys, two 1.25 inch fancy
guppies, seven 1 inch neon tetras, two 1.25 inch peppered corys, one 2
inch gold algae eater, four small plants.

10 gallon freshwater, contains (temporarily) two 5 inch peacock eels,
ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate trace (less than 2.5 but more than 0) PH
7.2, alkalinity med/low.

Thanks
Karen

[Clive]

"Karen Garza" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> There is little to no nitrate present in my three tanks. I consider all
> three of them to be fully cycled. Shouldn't there be a small amount of
> nitrate? Are the plants using up what little nitrate there is?
>
> tank 1: 20 gallon freshwater, ammonia 0, nitrite 0. nitrate 0, ph 7.6.
> alkalinity med/low. contains one 2.5 inch tetra, one 2.5 inch blue
> gourami, one 3.5 inch kuhli loach, one 4 inch gold algae eater, one 1.5
> inch peppered cory, two 1.5 inch peppered corys, 5 small plants.
>
> tank 2: 20 gallon freshwater, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, ph 7.6,
> alkalinity med., contains four 1.5 inch platys, two 1.25 inch fancy
> guppies, seven 1 inch neon tetras, two 1.25 inch peppered corys, one 2
> inch gold algae eater, four small plants.
>
> 10 gallon freshwater, contains (temporarily) two 5 inch peacock eels,
> ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate trace (less than 2.5 but more than 0) PH
> 7.2, alkalinity med/low.
>
> Thanks
> Karen

Karen

There should be varying amounts of Nitrate even in fully cycled tanks.
Plants DO reduce Nitrate, but I notice tank three on your list doesn't have
any plants?

Do you do regular waterchanges? Depending how often and how much water you
change, you may see only small amount of Nitrate.

Clive

[Michi Henning]

"Karen Garza" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> There is little to no nitrate present in my three tanks. I consider all
> three of them to be fully cycled. Shouldn't there be a small amount of
> nitrate? Are the plants using up what little nitrate there is?

Seems unlikely. Your fish load isn't all that high (except for the
third tank), but you don't have that many plants either. In the
first instance, I would suspect the test kit. Get another one
and try with that. Alternatively, your water changing regime
may be such that you are removing sufficient nitrate to get
below the detection threshold of your test kit. (Another brand
of test kit might help with that.) A (far out) possibility is that
you have anaerobic nitrate conversion to NO2 happening in
your substrate or your filter. (Apparently, that is happening in
most tanks to some degree, but not quickly enough to stay
on top of the nitrates altogether.)

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Karen Garza]

> There should be varying amounts of Nitrate even in fully cycled tanks.
> Plants DO reduce Nitrate, but I notice tank three on your list doesn't have
> any plants?
>
> Do you do regular waterchanges? Depending how often and how much water you
> change, you may see only small amount of Nitrate.
>
> Clive

No plants in tank 3 because it is temporary for the eels, and eels
*dig* I tell you! I don't think plants would do well with the eels
always digging them up. I know eels require a much bigger tank and I
hope to accommodate them with a bigger tank within a few months. I may
add plants to tank 3 after the eels are moved out. It may then become a
fry nursery if needed for the platys or guppys.
As for water changes, I do a minimum of one 30% weekly water change and
gravel vac on all three tanks. Sometimes I do an extra 30% water change
mid week. Most of the fish seem to love the water changes.
Tanks 1 and 3 have penguin biowheel filters and tank 2 has an older back
hang-on filter and a UGF. I prefer the biowheels.
I also forgot to mention that there is driftwood in tanks 1 and 2, and
there is a coconut shell cave in each of tanks 1 and 3. One of the eels
has taken up residence in the coconut shell and only digs in the
substrate occasionally. The other eel just digs in the substrate and
ignores the coconut.


Karen

[Karen Garza]

Michi Henning wrote:

> "Karen Garza" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>There is little to no nitrate present in my three tanks. I consider all
>>three of them to be fully cycled. Shouldn't there be a small amount of
>>nitrate? Are the plants using up what little nitrate there is?
>
>
> Seems unlikely. Your fish load isn't all that high (except for the
> third tank), but you don't have that many plants either. In the
> first instance, I would suspect the test kit. Get another one
> and try with that. Alternatively, your water changing regime
> may be such that you are removing sufficient nitrate to get
> below the detection threshold of your test kit. (Another brand
> of test kit might help with that.) A (far out) possibility is that
> you have anaerobic nitrate conversion to NO2 happening in
> your substrate or your filter. (Apparently, that is happening in
> most tanks to some degree, but not quickly enough to stay
> on top of the nitrates altogether.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michi.


Okay, I think I may have to try a new test kit then. I suppose it's
possible that I am removing the nitrate with my water changes. I do a
minimum of one weekly 30% water change and gravel vac. Sometimes I do an
extra 30% water change each week. I didn't think it was too much water
change, but I could be wrong. Wouldn't it be possible (maybe even
preferable) to even do a daily 50% water change if the fish are used to it?
Thanks

Karen

[Rick]

"Karen Garza" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> Michi Henning wrote:
>
> > "Karen Garza" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> >
> >>There is little to no nitrate present in my three tanks. I consider all
> >>three of them to be fully cycled. Shouldn't there be a small amount of
> >>nitrate? Are the plants using up what little nitrate there is?
> >
> >
> > Seems unlikely. Your fish load isn't all that high (except for the
> > third tank), but you don't have that many plants either. In the
> > first instance, I would suspect the test kit. Get another one
> > and try with that. Alternatively, your water changing regime
> > may be such that you are removing sufficient nitrate to get
> > below the detection threshold of your test kit. (Another brand
> > of test kit might help with that.) A (far out) possibility is that
> > you have anaerobic nitrate conversion to NO2 happening in
> > your substrate or your filter. (Apparently, that is happening in
> > most tanks to some degree, but not quickly enough to stay
> > on top of the nitrates altogether.)
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Michi.
>
>
> Okay, I think I may have to try a new test kit then. I suppose it's
> possible that I am removing the nitrate with my water changes. I do a
> minimum of one weekly 30% water change and gravel vac. Sometimes I do an
> extra 30% water change each week. I didn't think it was too much water
> change, but I could be wrong. Wouldn't it be possible (maybe even
> preferable) to even do a daily 50% water change if the fish are used to
it?
> Thanks
>
> Karen
>

it is likely that your weekly 30% water changes reduce your nitrate below
measurable levels. I do weekly 50% water changes in my heavily planted 77g
tank and dry dose ferts twice a week including a 1/2 tsp of KN03 (nitrate)
and I still don't measure much nitrate. Your plants will also be using up
nitrate. I wouldn't worry about it, seems everything is running o.k for you.
As far as daily 50% water changes are concerned you could do that if you had
the time but why bother. You fish in fact become accustomed to the schedule
of water changes you keep them in. To suddenly go from 30% weekly to 50%
daily could prove harmful. You could gradually increase you water changes
but 30% weekly is more than what most do.

Rick

[Karen Garza]

Rick wrote:

> it is likely that your weekly 30% water changes reduce your nitrate below
> measurable levels. I do weekly 50% water changes in my heavily planted 77g
> tank and dry dose ferts twice a week including a 1/2 tsp of KN03 (nitrate)
> and I still don't measure much nitrate. Your plants will also be using up
> nitrate. I wouldn't worry about it, seems everything is running o.k for you.
> As far as daily 50% water changes are concerned you could do that if you had
> the time but why bother.

Thanks for the info :-) I had read that there should be some nitrate in
the water, so I was a bit concerned that there isn't any nitrate in my
tanks. But if it doesn't matter then I won't worry about it.
I don't plan on doing daily 50% water changes. I was just wondering if
that was possible. I thought it was. I'll stick to my once or twice per
week water changes.
Thanks
Karen

[Dick]

I am very surprised that you have any trouble with so much water
change. I change 20% once a week in my 5 tanks. My tanks are heavily
populated. They are planted and filtered, but I am lazy about filter
maintenance unless the water is coming over the wrong spillway. I
worry more about biological health than particles and trust the tanks
to keep a healthy balance. I also keep a variety of scavengers
including Plecos, Clown Loaches and Siamese Algae Eaters in all my
tanks. I only feed Tetra flakes. I keep the temperatures between 78
and 80 degrees. I run air stones to promote circulation.

Not suggesting a change in your procedure, just wanted to note that
other procedures work also.

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 04:36:45 GMT, Karen Garza >
wrote:

>
>
>Rick wrote:
>
>> it is likely that your weekly 30% water changes reduce your nitrate below
>> measurable levels. I do weekly 50% water changes in my heavily planted 77g
>> tank and dry dose ferts twice a week including a 1/2 tsp of KN03 (nitrate)
>> and I still don't measure much nitrate. Your plants will also be using up
>> nitrate. I wouldn't worry about it, seems everything is running o.k for you.
>> As far as daily 50% water changes are concerned you could do that if you had
>> the time but why bother.
>
>Thanks for the info :-) I had read that there should be some nitrate in
>the water, so I was a bit concerned that there isn't any nitrate in my
>tanks. But if it doesn't matter then I won't worry about it.
>I don't plan on doing daily 50% water changes. I was just wondering if
>that was possible. I thought it was. I'll stick to my once or twice per
>week water changes.
>Thanks
>Karen

[Michi Henning]

"Karen Garza" > wrote in message
hlink.net...

> Okay, I think I may have to try a new test kit then. I suppose it's
> possible that I am removing the nitrate with my water changes. I do a
> minimum of one weekly 30% water change and gravel vac. Sometimes I do an
> extra 30% water change each week. I didn't think it was too much water
> change, but I could be wrong. Wouldn't it be possible (maybe even
> preferable) to even do a daily 50% water change if the fish are used to it?

I don't think that's a good idea at all. 50% water change daily is more likely
to leave you with a lot of dead fish than not. Despite all the chlorine
removers
and water conditioners, water changes to impose stress on fish. Every time
you change water, you also change the ion balance in the tank, forcing the
fish to adapt. There is only so much change they can cope with.
Too-frequent water changes tend to result in fish that mysteriously get
diseases such as fungal infections, fin rot, or other bacterial maladies.
The stress weakens the fish to the point where bacteria or fungi that
are always present (and normally pose no problems) take hold
and end up being fatal.

I'd limit water changes to no more than 25% weekly (assuming a
working biological filter). Step one is to work out whether your
nitrate readings are real or not. If they are, check out ammonia
and nitrite, which would be the suspects next in line. At any rate,
zero nitrate (assuming that is a correct reading) is not a problem
at all for your fish. It can be a problem for your plants, which need
nitrogen to grow, and zero-nitrate tanks also tend to have algae
problems (thanks Tom for making me see the light! :-), but you
fish will be perfectly happy with zero nitrates.

But if your neons are dying, there is something wrong. It's a
matter of elimination to work out why...

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Karen Garza]

Michi Henning wrote:
>
> I don't think that's a good idea at all. 50% water change daily is more likely
> to leave you with a lot of dead fish than not. Despite all the chlorine
> removers
> and water conditioners, water changes to impose stress on fish. Every time
> you change water, you also change the ion balance in the tank, forcing the
> fish to adapt. There is only so much change they can cope with.
> Too-frequent water changes tend to result in fish that mysteriously get
> diseases such as fungal infections, fin rot, or other bacterial maladies.
> The stress weakens the fish to the point where bacteria or fungi that
> are always present (and normally pose no problems) take hold
> and end up being fatal.
>
> I'd limit water changes to no more than 25% weekly (assuming a
> working biological filter). Step one is to work out whether your
> nitrate readings are real or not. If they are, check out ammonia
> and nitrite, which would be the suspects next in line. At any rate,
> zero nitrate (assuming that is a correct reading) is not a problem
> at all for your fish. It can be a problem for your plants, which need
> nitrogen to grow, and zero-nitrate tanks also tend to have algae
> problems (thanks Tom for making me see the light! :-), but you
> fish will be perfectly happy with zero nitrates.
>
> But if your neons are dying, there is something wrong. It's a
> matter of elimination to work out why...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michi.

Ah, this makes sense. I can see that it would definitely be stressfull
to the fish to do too many big water changes.
I suspect my nitrate test kit is wrong because my plants seem to be
growing, (and blooming) just fine. I have no algae and I have to add
algae wafers on occasion to keep the gold algae eaters happy. Tanks 1
and 3 have penguine biowheel filters and tank 2 has UGF, so I think we
have the biofilters covered. So maybe I will gradually cut back on my
water changes a bit. I'll try just one per week 30% water change and see
how that goes. If needed I can cut it back to one smaller water change
per week. I don't wnat to drastically alter my routine because I don't
want to stress the fish too much.
The only neons that have died are the one that died before I even got it
in the tank, and the one that the larger tetra (I still don't know what
kind of tetra) violently munched in tank 1. That tetra didn't simply
bite into the neon, he munched down about half of the neon in one big
bite then violently shook the neon side to side. Then he spit the neon
out and did it again. I think the neon was dead after the first attack
because he just sort of floated in space for about a second before the
second atack. I immediately removed all the remaining neons and put them
in tank 2.

Karen

[Empty]

Karen Garza > wrote in
link.net:

> No plants in tank 3 because it is temporary for the eels, and eels
> *dig* I tell you! I don't think plants would do well with the eels
> always digging them up.

I have kept many peacocks in planted aquaria. Just be sure to use deep
rooted plants, like crypts, swords, etc.

~Empty

--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

[Michi Henning]

"Karen Garza" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> Ah, this makes sense. I can see that it would definitely be stressfull
> to the fish to do too many big water changes.

More frequent small water changes are less stressful to the fish than
infrequent big water changes.

> The only neons that have died are the one that died before I even got it
> in the tank,

Hmmm... We can hardly blame your tank for that then, can we? ;-)

> and the one that the larger tetra (I still don't know what
> kind of tetra) violently munched in tank 1. That tetra didn't simply
> bite into the neon, he munched down about half of the neon in one big
> bite then violently shook the neon side to side.

Somehow, I think it unlikely that your nitrate levels have anything to
do with that :-)

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Squidvark]

Are you using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals's nitrate test kit?

[Karen Garza]

Squidvark wrote:
> Are you using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals's nitrate test kit?

Yep, that's the one.

Karen

[Dick]

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 04:36:45 GMT, Karen Garza >
wrote:

>
>
>Rick wrote:
>
>> it is likely that your weekly 30% water changes reduce your nitrate below
>> measurable levels. I do weekly 50% water changes in my heavily planted 77g
>> tank and dry dose ferts twice a week including a 1/2 tsp of KN03 (nitrate)
>> and I still don't measure much nitrate. Your plants will also be using up
>> nitrate. I wouldn't worry about it, seems everything is running o.k for you.
>> As far as daily 50% water changes are concerned you could do that if you had
>> the time but why bother.
>
>Thanks for the info :-) I had read that there should be some nitrate in
>the water, so I was a bit concerned that there isn't any nitrate in my
>tanks. But if it doesn't matter then I won't worry about it.
>I don't plan on doing daily 50% water changes. I was just wondering if
>that was possible. I thought it was. I'll stick to my once or twice per
>week water changes.
>Thanks
>Karen


I make weekly 20% water changes. I have 5 tanks: 75,29 and 3 10s.
Rather than rely on test kits, I keep watch on my fish. I can always
make extra water changes or run tests, but when the water quality is
getting iffy, my fish seem less active, tend to stay on the bottom or
top, color is off, plants wilt. I rarely have had a problem. Mostly
early on in setting up the tanks and then due to over feeding or too
much light.

Now I control my light with a timer and have become stingy with the
food. I only feed flake food to my fish. My tanks are heavilly
populated with a wide variety of fish.

I know there are a lot of folks that run a chemistry lab and more
power to you all. I don't enjoy nor trust the results and am a bit
lazy. I like to pop in to remind those less endowed that life can
continue without chemistry or excessive water changes.

[Rick]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 04:36:45 GMT, Karen Garza >
> wrote:
>
> >
mid posted



> I make weekly 20% water changes. I have 5 tanks: 75,29 and 3 10s.
> Rather than rely on test kits, I keep watch on my fish. I can always
> make extra water changes or run tests, but when the water quality is
> getting iffy, my fish seem less active, tend to stay on the bottom or
> top, color is off, plants wilt. I rarely have had a problem.

that sounds like a problem to me. Regular water changes although not
excessively so will prevent your water quality from getting "iffy", your
fish will remain active and not stay on the bottom, and plants will benefit.
However like everything else in this hobby, what ever works for you, may not
work for someone else. As long as your sucessful that is all that matter.
But 20% weekly water changes should be more than sufficient to prevent the
type of things you describe.




Mostly
> early on in setting up the tanks and then due to over feeding or too
> much light.
>
> Now I control my light with a timer and have become stingy with the
> food. I only feed flake food to my fish. My tanks are heavilly
> populated with a wide variety of fish.
>
overfeeding kills more fish and contributes to poor water quality and it is
a common mistake many including me are making or have made.



> I know there are a lot of folks that run a chemistry lab and more
> power to you all. I don't enjoy nor trust the results and am a bit
> lazy. I like to pop in to remind those less endowed that life can
> continue without chemistry or excessive water changes.


no need to run a chemistry lab. Depends on what your trying to accomplish
with your tank. I have a variety of test kits for Ph, hardness, ammonia etc.
Can't remember when I last used my ammonia kit. I now own a digital PH meter
however I breed fish and without proper PH , gh and Kh levels I would not be
able to breed many fish, particularly those that require soft acidic low PH
values. If your not into that stuff than there really is no need for many of
the kits.

Rick

[Dick]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:57:35 GMT, "Rick" >
wrote:

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 04:36:45 GMT, Karen Garza >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>mid posted
>
>
>
>> I make weekly 20% water changes. I have 5 tanks: 75,29 and 3 10s.
>> Rather than rely on test kits, I keep watch on my fish. I can always
>> make extra water changes or run tests, but when the water quality is
>> getting iffy, my fish seem less active, tend to stay on the bottom or
>> top, color is off, plants wilt. I rarely have had a problem.
>
>that sounds like a problem to me. Regular water changes although not
>excessively so will prevent your water quality from getting "iffy", your
>fish will remain active and not stay on the bottom, and plants will benefit.
>However like everything else in this hobby, what ever works for you, may not
>work for someone else. As long as your sucessful that is all that matter.
>But 20% weekly water changes should be more than sufficient to prevent the
>type of things you describe.
>
>
I know newbies read these newsgroups. I like to let them know one
does not have to have all the available gadgets or be a chemist. The
hobby can be fun. Plants will grow without CO2, the right plants, and
light does not have to be 2 or more watts per gallon. Ph is not an
exact dimension that must be so and so.

I have also noticed that people report various methods that work for
them. I think that is an important thing for newbies to know. Of
course, some newbies would prefer a formula for success. It would be
less stressful, that is for sure. I had to battle 5 tanks into their
comfort zone. I tried the chemical route, but then started looking at
plant characteristics, fish variety, water changes, light schedule,
etc. and was much happier with the results.

>
> Mostly
>> early on in setting up the tanks and then due to over feeding or too
>> much light.
>>
>> Now I control my light with a timer and have become stingy with the
>> food. I only feed flake food to my fish. My tanks are heavilly
>> populated with a wide variety of fish.
>>
>overfeeding kills more fish and contributes to poor water quality and it is
>a common mistake many including me are making or have made.
>
>
>
>> I know there are a lot of folks that run a chemistry lab and more
>> power to you all. I don't enjoy nor trust the results and am a bit
>> lazy. I like to pop in to remind those less endowed that life can
>> continue without chemistry or excessive water changes.
>
>
>no need to run a chemistry lab. Depends on what your trying to accomplish
>with your tank. I have a variety of test kits for Ph, hardness, ammonia etc.
>Can't remember when I last used my ammonia kit. I now own a digital PH meter
>however I breed fish and without proper PH , gh and Kh levels I would not be
>able to breed many fish, particularly those that require soft acidic low PH
>values. If your not into that stuff than there really is no need for many of
>the kits.
>
>Rick
>

[Squidvark]

Karen Garza > wrote:

>Squidvark wrote:
>> Are you using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals's nitrate test kit?
>
>Yep, that's the one.

That's what I thought. I started out with their nitrate test kits and
was wondering why I had to do so few water changes in all my tanks.
Then I started dosing my planted tank with nitrate and that was the
giveaway. I was adding nitrate and it wasn't being detected. I bought
some Hagen test kits and my nitrate was through the roof. It took a
reading of around 180 on the Hagen to even begin to register with the
AP kits.

Recently, even the Hagen has become suspect, or it could be that I'm
too lazy to feed my fish too frequently. I'll probably splurge on a
LaMotte kit one of these days. They're a lot easier to read and I'd
get them for that reason alone.