Question re Adjusting pH

[David J. Braunegg]

My tap water at home is in the 7.6-7.8 range. I have Platys and Corys in my
tank. Referencing www.fishbase.com, these two fish have pH ranges of
7.0-8.0 and 6.0-8.0, respectively. When I bought the fish and the aquarium,
my LFS recommended that I use chemicals to adjust my water pH to 6.8, which
I did. Having now discovered the pH ranges for my fish, is there any reason
for me not to slowly drift the pH to its natural value by reducing, then
eliminating, the adjustment to pH that I do to the replacement water in my
water changes? My goal would be to have no added chemicals in my water
change water, except for the stuff to get rid of chlorine in the tapwater.

The LFS told me to set the water heater to 77F. Fishbase shows the ranges
for these fish as 18-25C (Platy) and 22-26C (Cory), which is 64.4-77F and
71.6-78.8F, respectively. It would seem that I'm OK leaving the temperature
set where it is, unless someone can advise me differently.

The LFS also told me to add 1 tsp salt per gallon of water. I've since
found out that salt is not good for the Corys, so I stopped using it.

Thanks,
Dave

[Rick]

"David J. Braunegg" > wrote in message
...
> My tap water at home is in the 7.6-7.8 range. I have Platys and Corys in
my
> tank. Referencing www.fishbase.com, these two fish have pH ranges of
> 7.0-8.0 and 6.0-8.0, respectively. When I bought the fish and the
aquarium,
> my LFS recommended that I use chemicals to adjust my water pH to 6.8,
which
> I did. Having now discovered the pH ranges for my fish, is there any
reason
> for me not to slowly drift the pH to its natural value by reducing, then
> eliminating, the adjustment to pH that I do to the replacement water in my
> water changes? My goal would be to have no added chemicals in my water
> change water, except for the stuff to get rid of chlorine in the tapwater.
>
> The LFS told me to set the water heater to 77F. Fishbase shows the ranges
> for these fish as 18-25C (Platy) and 22-26C (Cory), which is 64.4-77F and
> 71.6-78.8F, respectively. It would seem that I'm OK leaving the
temperature
> set where it is, unless someone can advise me differently.
>
> The LFS also told me to add 1 tsp salt per gallon of water. I've since
> found out that salt is not good for the Corys, so I stopped using it.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>

adding chemicals to alter your ph is a tempory solution only and is not
recommended except by those who sell the chemicals. Your fish will be fine
using your tap water. Salt is sometimes recommended for livebearers ,
especially Mollies however is not needed in your tank.

Rick
>

[NetMax]

"David J. Braunegg" > wrote in message
...
> My tap water at home is in the 7.6-7.8 range. I have Platys and Corys
in my
> tank. Referencing www.fishbase.com, these two fish have pH ranges of
> 7.0-8.0 and 6.0-8.0, respectively. When I bought the fish and the
aquarium,
> my LFS recommended that I use chemicals to adjust my water pH to 6.8,
which
> I did. Having now discovered the pH ranges for my fish, is there any
reason
> for me not to slowly drift the pH to its natural value by reducing,
then
> eliminating, the adjustment to pH that I do to the replacement water in
my
> water changes? My goal would be to have no added chemicals in my water
> change water, except for the stuff to get rid of chlorine in the
tapwater.
>
> The LFS told me to set the water heater to 77F. Fishbase shows the
ranges
> for these fish as 18-25C (Platy) and 22-26C (Cory), which is 64.4-77F
and
> 71.6-78.8F, respectively. It would seem that I'm OK leaving the
temperature
> set where it is, unless someone can advise me differently.
>
> The LFS also told me to add 1 tsp salt per gallon of water. I've since
> found out that salt is not good for the Corys, so I stopped using it.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave

You don't indicate what your water hardness is, but since the pH down
worked for you, I will assume your water is soft, (this because you need
a low kH for pH down to work easily, and a low kH is associated with a
low gH which is your general hardness). Your plan is well researched and
sound. Let your pH rise by about 0.25 a day (or slower). You might have
to resort to smaller water changes more frequently to bring it up
gradually. Your Corys will be the most affected by this, so keep an eye
on them. You _are_ reducing the acidity by a factor of ten, going from
6.8 to 7.8pH.

If you don't already have plants & driftwood in the tank, try it out.
They will add a buffering effect, softening and slightly acidifying the
water very naturally. A piece of coral will naturally increase your
buffer (kH), just in case your tap water kH is low (under 3dkH). You can
even have both (coral & plants). Coral, or any rocks which leech calcium
(aragonite, dolomite, tufa, etc) do so at a rate which depends on the
acidity of the water. If your water is hard and alkaline, coral will do
very little, but in acidic water, it breaks down and dissolves. Think of
it as a self-regulating kH adjuster. If your kH is ok (higher than
4dkH), and you want neutral to soft conditions, then don't bother with
it. Driftwood leeches humic acids in progressively smaller amounts, and
reduces the gH, also in diminishing amounts. Plants tend to have a more
subtle continuous effect (any rotting plant matter acidifies the water,
and plants remove minerals from the water for their growth).

Regarding temperature (and to some extent, pH too), you do not want to
confuse what your fish were raised in, with what your fish evolved in.
Livebearers are a good example. They are highly farmed, and if the
Platys you have came from soft water farms, then your Platys will not
suffer from not being in hard water. A neutral water condition would
probably be best. I think that Guppies are listed as cool water fish (as
are Tiger barbs), but the ones in the LFS might not have seen cooler
water in hundreds of generations, and if we put them in cooler water,
they might do more poorly, than if they were left in warmer water.

Keeping fish at the warmer spectrum of their range is generally safer
than aiming for the lower range. Besides the fact that there are less
diseases which survive in warmer water, the fishes activity level is
higher and they are more colourful (many breeders will turn down their
heaters to cool over-amorous pairs or fighting males). The down side
(with warmer water) is that with a higher metabolism, they need to eat
more, (but tropical fish in aquariums are rarely in danger of being
underfed ;~), and there is less oxygen in the water (but modern
filtration systems do a good job). There are always exceptions (ie:
White Cloud Minnows which should not be kept in tropical temperatures,
and Kuhli loaches also may take some time to acclimate), but generally
77F is not too warm for most tropical fish. imo

NetMax

[David J. Braunegg]

Midposted. Thank you for the advice.

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> You don't indicate what your water hardness is, but since the pH down
> worked for you, I will assume your water is soft, (this because you need
> a low kH for pH down to work easily, and a low kH is associated with a
> low gH which is your general hardness).

I have the water reports from my town water supply (e.g., Hardness 22-88,
Calcium 6.1-24.7, Total Dissolved Solids 83-215), buy I haven't actually
tested the water for kH or gH. I've been told that my town water is,
indeed, soft.

> Your plan is well researched and
> sound. Let your pH rise by about 0.25 a day (or slower).

Thanks. Of course, my ignorance of my kH and gH may now have convinced you
otherwise.

> If you don't already have plants & driftwood in the tank, try it out.

I tried plants, but the Platys decimated them, so I gave up and went to
plastic plants. I would have liked live plants. I've never been sure if
the hunger was related to the female Platy's pregnancy.

Dave

[NetMax]

"David J. Braunegg" > wrote in message
...
> Midposted. Thank you for the advice.
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > You don't indicate what your water hardness is, but since the pH down
> > worked for you, I will assume your water is soft, (this because you
need
> > a low kH for pH down to work easily, and a low kH is associated with
a
> > low gH which is your general hardness).
>
> I have the water reports from my town water supply (e.g., Hardness
22-88,
> Calcium 6.1-24.7, Total Dissolved Solids 83-215), buy I haven't
actually
> tested the water for kH or gH. I've been told that my town water is,
> indeed, soft.
>
> > Your plan is well researched and
> > sound. Let your pH rise by about 0.25 a day (or slower).
>
> Thanks. Of course, my ignorance of my kH and gH may now have convinced
you
> otherwise.

LOL. If your city says your hardness (gH) is 22-88pm, then that's 1.2 to
4.9dgH in aquarium terms, which is very-softy to soft (according to
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html#altering ). I would throw a few
pieces of coral in the tank to natuarally boost it up a bit.

> > If you don't already have plants & driftwood in the tank, try it out.
>
> I tried plants, but the Platys decimated them, so I gave up and went to
> plastic plants. I would have liked live plants. I've never been sure
if
> the hunger was related to the female Platy's pregnancy.

Some fish are lawn-mowers, eating anything which is green, while others
will starve to death surrounded by lush vegetation, but most fish live
somewhere in-between. Platys are known as planted-community tank fish,
because they are on the less-likely end of the spectrum. They like to
nibble some algaes and the odd plant leaf, but are not known to ravage
plants. However any fish which has not be raised with plants, will view
new additions as very likely to have some food potential, so would be
very curious about it. You can work around this by introducing less
palatable plants, either in texture (Hornwort, Java moss), or just
tougher plants (Anubius, Amazons, Lace, Crypts) or less tasty (Onion,
Java ferns). The plants most likely to be nibbled would be soft with
mouth-sized leaves like Anachris, Elodea, Egeria densa (I think these are
all the same plant, or similar), or ribbon plants like the Vals, or just
fragile (Riccia, small Sags and Echin. tennellus etc). I hope this helps
direct & fuel your future attempts at using natural plants. I have a
black thumb with terrestrial plants, but I find aquatic plants are pretty
easy (I never have to remember to water them ;~).

NetMax

> Dave
>
>

[David J. Braunegg]

Two midpostings.


"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> LOL. If your city says your hardness (gH) is 22-88pm, then that's 1.2 to
> 4.9dgH in aquarium terms, which is very-softy to soft (according to
> http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html#altering ). I would throw a few
> pieces of coral in the tank to natuarally boost it up a bit.

I understand that the coral you suggested will boost the gH, but the fish
seem to be doing well in the water as-is, so I am not sure of the benefit of
trying to change the gH.

Fishbase lists the dH ranges for my fish. If dH = gH, then it is a bit low
for the Platys, but they swim around a lot and don't seem stressed. We had
a couple Platy broods, but if they never reproduce again, I won't mind.
Platy: 9.0-19.0 dH
Cory: 2.0-25.0 dH

I talked on the phone with a fellow at the town's Water Department. They do
pH adjustment for corrosion control because the water is naturally
acidic--their goal is 7.4-7.6 pH and a level of 8.0 would trigger a State
reporting situation. They also adjust the alkalinity to 45-55 mg/l--I'm not
sure how to convert this into kH, but I suspect it is pretty low.


> > > If you don't already have plants & driftwood in the tank, try it out.
> >
> > I tried plants, but the Platys decimated them, so I gave up and went to
> > plastic plants. I would have liked live plants. I've never been sure
> if
> > the hunger was related to the female Platy's pregnancy.
>
> Some fish are lawn-mowers, eating anything which is green, while others
> will starve to death surrounded by lush vegetation, but most fish live
> somewhere in-between. Platys are known as planted-community tank fish,
> because they are on the less-likely end of the spectrum. They like to
> nibble some algaes and the odd plant leaf, but are not known to ravage
> plants. However any fish which has not be raised with plants, will view
> new additions as very likely to have some food potential, so would be
> very curious about it. You can work around this by introducing less
> palatable plants, either in texture (Hornwort, Java moss), or just
> tougher plants (Anubius, Amazons, Lace, Crypts) or less tasty (Onion,
> Java ferns). The plants most likely to be nibbled would be soft with
> mouth-sized leaves like Anachris, Elodea, Egeria densa (I think these are
> all the same plant, or similar), or ribbon plants like the Vals, or just
> fragile (Riccia, small Sags and Echin. tennellus etc).

Well, the ones I tried were the Elodea-type plants. Maybe I will eventually
try again with one of the other plants you suggested. The juvenile Platys
nibble on the green algae on the underwater structures, but don't clean much
of it off.

I appreciate all of your help.

Dave

[NetMax]

Two more midposts :o)

"David J. Braunegg" > wrote in message
...
> Two midpostings.
>
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > LOL. If your city says your hardness (gH) is 22-88pm, then that's
1.2 to
> > 4.9dgH in aquarium terms, which is very-softy to soft (according to
> > http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html#altering ). I would throw a
few
> > pieces of coral in the tank to natuarally boost it up a bit.
>
> I understand that the coral you suggested will boost the gH, but the
fish
> seem to be doing well in the water as-is, so I am not sure of the
benefit of
> trying to change the gH.
>
> Fishbase lists the dH ranges for my fish. If dH = gH, then it is a bit
low
> for the Platys, but they swim around a lot and don't seem stressed. We
had
> a couple Platy broods, but if they never reproduce again, I won't mind.
> Platy: 9.0-19.0 dH
> Cory: 2.0-25.0 dH

The primary intent of the coral is to increase the kH (alkalinity). When
the kH is too low, the pH lacks stability and a pH crash is more of a
danger. A beneficial side-effect is that it increases the gH which the
Platys would not object to ;~).

> I talked on the phone with a fellow at the town's Water Department.
They do
> pH adjustment for corrosion control because the water is naturally
> acidic--their goal is 7.4-7.6 pH and a level of 8.0 would trigger a
State
> reporting situation. They also adjust the alkalinity to 45-55
mg/l--I'm not
> sure how to convert this into kH, but I suspect it is pretty low.

They are raising the pH, making it more alkaline (not to be confused with
alkalinity which is kH). An alkalinity (or kH or buffer it's all the
same thing) of 45-55 mg/l is also 45-55 ppm. Divide by 17.9 to get
degrees of kH or dkH, and your range is 2.5 to 3 dkH. They recommend a
dkH of greater than 5 for stability, and under 4, and it's worth taking
action. This is why I suggested adding coral. From your other
parameters, and the pH-down working, I suspected that your kH was low,
and I was correct (I'm starting to get good at this water chemistry stuff
:o).

NetMax

> > > > If you don't already have plants & driftwood in the tank, try it
out.
> > >
> > > I tried plants, but the Platys decimated them, so I gave up and
went to
> > > plastic plants. I would have liked live plants. I've never been
sure
> > if
> > > the hunger was related to the female Platy's pregnancy.
> >
> > Some fish are lawn-mowers, eating anything which is green, while
others
> > will starve to death surrounded by lush vegetation, but most fish
live
> > somewhere in-between. Platys are known as planted-community tank
fish,
> > because they are on the less-likely end of the spectrum. They like
to
> > nibble some algaes and the odd plant leaf, but are not known to
ravage
> > plants. However any fish which has not be raised with plants, will
view
> > new additions as very likely to have some food potential, so would be
> > very curious about it. You can work around this by introducing less
> > palatable plants, either in texture (Hornwort, Java moss), or just
> > tougher plants (Anubius, Amazons, Lace, Crypts) or less tasty (Onion,
> > Java ferns). The plants most likely to be nibbled would be soft with
> > mouth-sized leaves like Anachris, Elodea, Egeria densa (I think these
are
> > all the same plant, or similar), or ribbon plants like the Vals, or
just
> > fragile (Riccia, small Sags and Echin. tennellus etc).
>
> Well, the ones I tried were the Elodea-type plants. Maybe I will
eventually
> try again with one of the other plants you suggested. The juvenile
Platys
> nibble on the green algae on the underwater structures, but don't clean
much
> of it off.
>
> I appreciate all of your help.
>
> Dave
>
>

[Dick]

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:41:09 -0500, "David J. Braunegg"
> wrote:

>My tap water at home is in the 7.6-7.8 range. I have Platys and Corys in my
>tank. Referencing www.fishbase.com, these two fish have pH ranges of
>7.0-8.0 and 6.0-8.0, respectively. When I bought the fish and the aquarium,
>my LFS recommended that I use chemicals to adjust my water pH to 6.8, which
>I did. Having now discovered the pH ranges for my fish, is there any reason
>for me not to slowly drift the pH to its natural value by reducing, then
>eliminating, the adjustment to pH that I do to the replacement water in my
>water changes? My goal would be to have no added chemicals in my water
>change water, except for the stuff to get rid of chlorine in the tapwater.
>
>The LFS told me to set the water heater to 77F. Fishbase shows the ranges
>for these fish as 18-25C (Platy) and 22-26C (Cory), which is 64.4-77F and
>71.6-78.8F, respectively. It would seem that I'm OK leaving the temperature
>set where it is, unless someone can advise me differently.
>
>The LFS also told me to add 1 tsp salt per gallon of water. I've since
>found out that salt is not good for the Corys, so I stopped using it.
>
>Thanks,
>Dave
>

My town's water if about 7.5, I quit trying to adjust ph last summer.
I have 5 tanks and 142 fish, 14 species. I would suggest you let
nature take it course and save yourself the effort to keep some
"correct" ph. By the way, Platys and Corys are part of my stock.