Is this milky water a bacterial bloom ?

[Alan Silver]

Hello,

I just set up a new tank, 220 litre, going to be a cichlid tank. Our
water is soft and neutral out of the tap.

Due to previous woes with my first attempt at a fake rock background
(see http://fish.alansilver.co.uk/Mark3/bg5.asp for more details), I
decided to fill the tank up and wash it out a couple of times before
adding the cichlids.

I did this and all seemed to go well. I filled up the tank again on
Sunday afternoon and added a heater and filter (Fluval 2, hung down in
the middle of the tank as a temporary measure). The filter had the media
removed and carbon inserted instead to absorb anything nasty that may be
in there.

By Monday afternoon, the temperature was suitable for some fish. I took
three ageing glowlight tetras from my other tank and put them in.
Assuming that three small fish in a tank that size would not cause any
biological problems, I left the carbon in the filter instead of the
foam.

This morning the water was quite milky. In a normal cycling tank, I
would have assumed that this was a bacterial bloom and would go after a
while. In this case I'm not so sure. I wouldn't actually expect the tank
to cycle with such a small bioload.

For one thing, I wouldn't have expected a bloom so quickly. There are
only three small fish in there and they were only in for about 18 hours
when I saw the milkiness. I would have thought that three little 'uns
wouldn't cause such a quick bloom in a 220 litre tank.

Secondly, I measured the ammonia and nitrite this morning. Ammonia was
zero and nitrite was no more than 0.1 mg/l. This doesn't sound like a
cycling tank.

I removed the carbon from the filter this morning and put the foam back
in. This had stayed in the old tank, so should still have a full
bacteria colony on it. So far (five hours later) the water is the same.
I don't know how quickly the bloom (if it is that) would go with a
mature Fluval 2 in, but I was hoping that I would have seen some change
by now. The filter has a flow rate of around 400 l/hr, so it should have
filtered the tank's capacity about nine times by now.

Sorry to go on, but I wanted to give as much info as possible. Any
comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA

--
Alan Silver
PSG Fish Tanks - http://fish.alansilver.co.uk/

[Flash Wilson]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:29:02 +0000, Alan Silver > wrote:
>I just set up a new tank, 220 litre, going to be a cichlid tank. Our
>water is soft and neutral out of the tap.
<Snip>
>This morning the water was quite milky. In a normal cycling tank, I
>would have assumed that this was a bacterial bloom and would go after a
>while. In this case I'm not so sure. I wouldn't actually expect the tank
>to cycle with such a small bioload.

I'm not sure what else it could be. I say that; I've never seen
a bacterial bloom myself...

Normally I would say it could be any of:
1) Hot chalky water (quickly settles) - but you have soft water
and this wasn't when you filled the tank
2) Gravel dust - but again this happened some time later (unless
the gravel got very very very stirred up?!)
3) As a result of medication - I've heard ppl report unexpected
cloudiness when adding Interpet medication, but you don't mention
any use of medication
4) Bacteria.

So I suppose 4 is the only option I can think of and not rule out.

--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Me: So what is Gary's title these days?
Mike: ****.

[Lori Wilson]

My water did this also. I kept doing partial water changes, and it still
stayed milky, not hazy like a bloom, but milky. I found my filter inlet
tube case partially clog and the water turnover was not sufficient. Once I
cleaned the inlet, the milky water cleared up.

Lori

--
www.inharmonytravel.globaltravel.com
"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:29:02 +0000, Alan Silver >
wrote:
> >I just set up a new tank, 220 litre, going to be a cichlid tank. Our
> >water is soft and neutral out of the tap.
> <Snip>
> >This morning the water was quite milky. In a normal cycling tank, I
> >would have assumed that this was a bacterial bloom and would go after a
> >while. In this case I'm not so sure. I wouldn't actually expect the tank
> >to cycle with such a small bioload.
>
> I'm not sure what else it could be. I say that; I've never seen
> a bacterial bloom myself...
>
> Normally I would say it could be any of:
> 1) Hot chalky water (quickly settles) - but you have soft water
> and this wasn't when you filled the tank
> 2) Gravel dust - but again this happened some time later (unless
> the gravel got very very very stirred up?!)
> 3) As a result of medication - I've heard ppl report unexpected
> cloudiness when adding Interpet medication, but you don't mention
> any use of medication
> 4) Bacteria.
>
> So I suppose 4 is the only option I can think of and not rule out.
>
> --
> Flash Wilson
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Me: So what is Gary's title these days?
> Mike: ****.

[NetMax]

I don't think you need ammonia or nitrites to have a bacterial bloom.
Any imbalance can do it, and new tanks are not remotely balanced. For
example if there was a lot of bacteria in the gravel which died off, then
you might get a bloom of bacteria which multiplied to eat the dead
bacteria from the gravel. These bacteria would die off (when they ran
out of food) again creating a milky look to the water, and so on, and so
on, each time, the water would stay a bit clearer. A common factor is
that having adequate filtration will get the tank balanced more quickly.

NetMax

"Lori Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> My water did this also. I kept doing partial water changes, and it
still
> stayed milky, not hazy like a bloom, but milky. I found my filter
inlet
> tube case partially clog and the water turnover was not sufficient.
Once I
> cleaned the inlet, the milky water cleared up.
>
> Lori
>
> --
> www.inharmonytravel.globaltravel.com
> "Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:29:02 +0000, Alan Silver
>
> wrote:
> > >I just set up a new tank, 220 litre, going to be a cichlid tank. Our
> > >water is soft and neutral out of the tap.
> > <Snip>
> > >This morning the water was quite milky. In a normal cycling tank, I
> > >would have assumed that this was a bacterial bloom and would go
after a
> > >while. In this case I'm not so sure. I wouldn't actually expect the
tank
> > >to cycle with such a small bioload.
> >
> > I'm not sure what else it could be. I say that; I've never seen
> > a bacterial bloom myself...
> >
> > Normally I would say it could be any of:
> > 1) Hot chalky water (quickly settles) - but you have soft water
> > and this wasn't when you filled the tank
> > 2) Gravel dust - but again this happened some time later (unless
> > the gravel got very very very stirred up?!)
> > 3) As a result of medication - I've heard ppl report unexpected
> > cloudiness when adding Interpet medication, but you don't mention
> > any use of medication
> > 4) Bacteria.
> >
> > So I suppose 4 is the only option I can think of and not rule out.
> >
> > --
> > Flash Wilson
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> > Me: So what is Gary's title these days?
> > Mike: ****.
>
>

[me]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:29:02 +0000, Alan Silver >
wrote:
> >I just set up a new tank, 220 litre, going to be a cichlid tank. Our
> >water is soft and neutral out of the tap.
> <Snip>
> >This morning the water was quite milky. In a normal cycling tank, I
> >would have assumed that this was a bacterial bloom and would go after a
> >while. In this case I'm not so sure. I wouldn't actually expect the tank
> >to cycle with such a small bioload.
>
> I'm not sure what else it could be. I say that; I've never seen
> a bacterial bloom myself...
>
> Normally I would say it could be any of:
> 1) Hot chalky water (quickly settles) - but you have soft water
> and this wasn't when you filled the tank

Water was cold when coming in and only heat was from the tank heater.

> 2) Gravel dust - but again this happened some time later (unless
> the gravel got very very very stirred up?!)

Nope ;-)

> 3) As a result of medication - I've heard ppl report unexpected
> cloudiness when adding Interpet medication, but you don't mention
> any use of medication

Nope again ;-)

> 4) Bacteria.
>
> So I suppose 4 is the only option I can think of and not rule out.

Thanx, it looks like 4 is the winner ;-)

[me]

> My water did this also. I kept doing partial water changes, and it still
> stayed milky, not hazy like a bloom, but milky. I found my filter inlet
> tube case partially clog and the water turnover was not sufficient. Once
I
> cleaned the inlet, the milky water cleared up.

If it was a bloom, I wouldn't change the water as this would slow down the
process. The filter was cleaned before putting it the tank, so that's not my
problem here.

Thanx for the reply.

[me]

> I don't think you need ammonia or nitrites to have a bacterial bloom.

Ah, that would explain that bit then.

> Any imbalance can do it, and new tanks are not remotely balanced.

A bit like the tank owner ...

> For
> example if there was a lot of bacteria in the gravel which died off, then
> you might get a bloom of bacteria which multiplied to eat the dead
> bacteria from the gravel. These bacteria would die off (when they ran
> out of food) again creating a milky look to the water, and so on, and so
> on, each time, the water would stay a bit clearer.

Hmm, it was new gravel, so I have no idea what happened to it before. This
is plausible though.

> A common factor is
> that having adequate filtration will get the tank balanced more quickly.

Well, I have a Fluval 2 hanging in the tank. Whilst this is too small for a
stocked tank, it should be OK for just three glowlights. It turns over the
tank's capacity in about 30 minutes, so I would hope it would do the job.

Anyway, Weds afternoon and the water is still milky. Could be my (hopeful)
imagination, but it might be slightly less so. Even if it is, it's not
enough to call clear ;-(

Thanx for the reply.

One thing that bothers me more though - I have a filter sitting on my old
tank maturing so that I can plus it into the new tank and not have to worry
about cycling. It has been there for about three months (due to my
background disaster if you remember that), so it should be well matured by
now. If I put it on the new tank, will I get this blooming happening again ?
Obviously there shouldn't be any ammonia/nitrite issues as the filter is
matured, but will there be any other side-effects ? I was hoping that
maturing the filter would allow me to stock the tank in one go instead of
doing it slowly.

Any comments appreciated (as always !!)

Ta ra

[NetMax]

"me" > wrote in message ...
<snip>
>
> > A common factor is
> > that having adequate filtration will get the tank balanced more
quickly.
>
> Well, I have a Fluval 2 hanging in the tank. Whilst this is too small
for a
> stocked tank, it should be OK for just three glowlights. It turns over
the
> tank's capacity in about 30 minutes, so I would hope it would do the
job.

I think a Fluval 2 turning your tank twice an hour is quite small, though
it _should_ keep up with 3 tetras. Generally, when I think a filter is
big enough for a cloudy tank, someone will add a 2nd filter and the tank
will clear, so I'm not so fast to declare a filter is big enough anymore.

> Anyway, Weds afternoon and the water is still milky. Could be my
(hopeful)
> imagination, but it might be slightly less so. Even if it is, it's not
> enough to call clear ;-(
>
> Thanx for the reply.
>
> One thing that bothers me more though - I have a filter sitting on my
old
> tank maturing so that I can plus it into the new tank and not have to
worry
> about cycling. It has been there for about three months (due to my
> background disaster if you remember that), so it should be well matured
by
> now. If I put it on the new tank, will I get this blooming happening
again ?
> Obviously there shouldn't be any ammonia/nitrite issues as the filter
is
> matured, but will there be any other side-effects ? I was hoping that
> maturing the filter would allow me to stock the tank in one go instead
of
> doing it slowly.
>
> Any comments appreciated (as always !!)
>
> Ta ra

It would depend on how you are maintaining your mature filter. Any
interruption in the water flow (oxygen) or in the supply of nutrients
(ammonia, nitrites), or significant variation in temperature will have an
adverse affect on the nitrifying bacteria.

btw, I've never seen or heard of a fish dying or suffering from cloudy
water (bacterial bloom).
NetMax

[Alan Silver]

In message >, NetMax
> writes
>I don't think you need ammonia or nitrites to have a bacterial bloom.
>Any imbalance can do it, and new tanks are not remotely balanced. For
>example if there was a lot of bacteria in the gravel which died off,
>then you might get a bloom of bacteria which multiplied to eat the dead
>bacteria from the gravel. These bacteria would die off (when they ran
>out of food) again creating a milky look to the water, and so on, and
>so on, each time, the water would stay a bit clearer. A common factor
>is that having adequate filtration will get the tank balanced more quickly.

Update - 5th Feb 04

Last night one of the glowlights was bloated and not looking happy. This
morning he was belly-up, gone to that Great Fish Tank in the Sky. Sniff.
The other two seem fine.

On the positive side, the milkiness is clearing. The water is not
properly clear yet, but is definitely a lot better than yesterday. I
added an air stone last night as there wasn't much surface movement.
Don't know if this helped or hindered.

--
Alan Silver
PSG Fish Tanks - http://fish.alansilver.co.uk/

[me]

> > > A common factor is
> > > that having adequate filtration will get the tank balanced more
> quickly.
> >
> > Well, I have a Fluval 2 hanging in the tank. Whilst this is too small
> for a
> > stocked tank, it should be OK for just three glowlights. It turns over
> the
> > tank's capacity in about 30 minutes, so I would hope it would do the
> job.
>
> I think a Fluval 2 turning your tank twice an hour is quite small, though
> it _should_ keep up with 3 tetras. Generally, when I think a filter is
> big enough for a cloudy tank, someone will add a 2nd filter and the tank
> will clear, so I'm not so fast to declare a filter is big enough anymore.

As reported in another post in this thread, the water *is* clearing, so it
looks like it was the bacteria. Unfortunately, one of the glowlights is no
longer with us, having become bloated last night and died by this morning.
The other two are fine.

> > One thing that bothers me more though - I have a filter sitting on my
> old
> > tank maturing so that I can plus it into the new tank and not have to
> worry
> > about cycling. It has been there for about three months (due to my
> > background disaster if you remember that), so it should be well matured
> by
> > now. If I put it on the new tank, will I get this blooming happening
> again ?
> > Obviously there shouldn't be any ammonia/nitrite issues as the filter
> is
> > matured, but will there be any other side-effects ? I was hoping that
> > maturing the filter would allow me to stock the tank in one go instead
> of
> > doing it slowly.
> >
> > Any comments appreciated (as always !!)
> >
> > Ta ra
>
> It would depend on how you are maintaining your mature filter. Any
> interruption in the water flow (oxygen) or in the supply of nutrients
> (ammonia, nitrites), or significant variation in temperature will have an
> adverse affect on the nitrifying bacteria.

At the moment, the new filter is filtering the old tank, along with the
filters that were there already. Actually this isn't quite true as I took
one of those old filters and put it on the new tank !! Confused yet?

Anyway, my plan is that when I am happy that all is well, I will unplug the
new filter from the old tank and transfer it to the new tank. I'm hoping
that this will only take a matter of minutes, certainly no more than 10. I
wouldn't expect that to be a problem, after all filters are often switched
off for longer than that when cleaning tanks.

> btw, I've never seen or heard of a fish dying or suffering from cloudy
> water (bacterial bloom).

So presumably I have little to fear then ? If the new filter is mature and
not left shut off for too long, then I should just be able to put it on the
new tank and add the full fish stock in one go.

Does this sound wise ?

Thanx again for al the help.

[NetMax]

"me" > wrote in message ...
<snip>
>
> So presumably I have little to fear then ? If the new filter is mature
and
> not left shut off for too long, then I should just be able to put it on
the
> new tank and add the full fish stock in one go.
>
> Does this sound wise ?
>
> Thanx again for al the help.

Sounds peachy :o) Feed sparingly for the first few days, and monitor
your levels until you have NO3 and no NO2. Then you are home-free. Very
often, in this type of an arrangement (flooding additional tanks while
mixing equipment), I don't get ammonia or nitrite measurements high
enough to register on the test kits. It could actually be frustrating to
be watching & waiting for it ;o) I secretly think that the more tanks
you have in a house, the greater the saturation of nitrifying bacteria in
your air, and the quicker any tank will cycle. I have no proof of
course, but lots of heresay ;~)

NetMax

[Alan Silver]

>> So presumably I have little to fear then ? If the new filter is mature
>and
>> not left shut off for too long, then I should just be able to put it on
>the
>> new tank and add the full fish stock in one go.
>>
>> Does this sound wise ?
>>
>> Thanx again for al the help.
>
>Sounds peachy :o)

Sorry, not familiar with that term ;-) Does that means it's a sensible
suggestion, or a stupid one ? Or maybe just that you are thinking about
your supper ;-)

> Feed sparingly for the first few days, and monitor
>your levels until you have NO3 and no NO2. Then you are home-free. Very
>often, in this type of an arrangement (flooding additional tanks while
>mixing equipment), I don't get ammonia or nitrite measurements high
>enough to register on the test kits. It could actually be frustrating to
>be watching & waiting for it ;o)

OK, I'll assume (unless you correct me) that I would probably be OK to
add the fish in one go as long as I keep an eye on the tank.

Don't worry, if I have any trouble, you'll hear about it !!

> I secretly think that the more tanks
>you have in a house, the greater the saturation of nitrifying bacteria in
>your air, and the quicker any tank will cycle. I have no proof of
>course, but lots of heresay ;~)

Hmm, sounds convincing to me !!

Ta ra

--
Alan Silver
PSG Fish Tanks - http://fish.alansilver.co.uk/

[NetMax]

"Alan Silver" > wrote in message
...
> >> So presumably I have little to fear then ? If the new filter is
mature
> >and
> >> not left shut off for too long, then I should just be able to put it
on
> >the
> >> new tank and add the full fish stock in one go.
> >>
> >> Does this sound wise ?
> >>
> >> Thanx again for al the help.
> >
> >Sounds peachy :o)
>
> Sorry, not familiar with that term ;-) Does that means it's a sensible
> suggestion, or a stupid one ? Or maybe just that you are thinking about
> your supper ;-)
<snip>

LOL, peachy, as in sweet and perfectly digestible, or, a sensible
approach.

NetMax

[Alan Silver]

>> >Sounds peachy :o)
>>
>> Sorry, not familiar with that term ;-) Does that means it's a sensible
>> suggestion, or a stupid one ? Or maybe just that you are thinking about
>> your supper ;-)
><snip>
>
>LOL, peachy, as in sweet and perfectly digestible, or, a sensible
>approach.

<g> Thanx. Sometimes expressions don't travel well.

Thanx again for the help

--
Alan Silver
PSG Fish Tanks - http://fish.alansilver.co.uk/

[Trygve Lillefosse]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:29:02 +0000, Alan Silver
> wrote:
>This morning the water was quite milky. In a normal cycling tank, I
>would have assumed that this was a bacterial bloom and would go after a
>while. In this case I'm not so sure. I wouldn't actually expect the tank
>to cycle with such a small bioload.

I think that what you see is actualy infusoria that are eating
bacteria, not the bacterias themself.

--
SEE YA !!!
Trygve Lillefosse
AKA - Malawi, The Fisher King