Balance between nutrients, light & CO2

[Peps]

I have read lots that stresses the importance of balancing nutients,
light and C02 in a planted aquarium, but little that tells me in simple
terms how.

My latest 55g aquarium is about a month old, is heavily planted and I
inject DIY CO2 which measures about 20ppm. My substrate is just gravel,
into which I push fertiliser tablets, and I add a rotation of different
liquid fertilisers according to instructions (typically once a week). My
lighting is 2 x 4ft and 1 x 18" flouros (I think that is about 100W).

The tank is well and truly cicled. Nitrates and phospates are very low.

The plants are growing really well - no complaints there, but I have
just begun to the first signs of green algae, and I think brush algae.
Yes - I have a variety of algae-eating fish including 5 SAEs and a
(still small) Bristlenose.

I don't think I should be getting the algae at all!, but I suspect that
given the rate of the plants growth, I am not fertilising enough. (That
is that there are fish-produced nutrients left over for the algae.

None of the fertiliser manufacturers state different doses depending on
the density and growth rate of the plants. This seems wrong.

So... what are the signs to look for that indicate under (or over)
fertilisation? How much should I experiment?

Am I on the right track here?

[NetMax]

"Peps" > wrote in message
...
> I have read lots that stresses the importance of balancing nutients,
> light and C02 in a planted aquarium, but little that tells me in simple
> terms how.
>
> My latest 55g aquarium is about a month old, is heavily planted and I
> inject DIY CO2 which measures about 20ppm. My substrate is just gravel,
> into which I push fertiliser tablets, and I add a rotation of different
> liquid fertilisers according to instructions (typically once a week).
My
> lighting is 2 x 4ft and 1 x 18" flouros (I think that is about 100W).
>
> The tank is well and truly cicled. Nitrates and phospates are very low.
>
> The plants are growing really well - no complaints there, but I have
> just begun to the first signs of green algae, and I think brush algae.
> Yes - I have a variety of algae-eating fish including 5 SAEs and a
> (still small) Bristlenose.
>
> I don't think I should be getting the algae at all!, but I suspect that
> given the rate of the plants growth, I am not fertilising enough. (That
> is that there are fish-produced nutrients left over for the algae.
>
> None of the fertiliser manufacturers state different doses depending on
> the density and growth rate of the plants. This seems wrong.
>
> So... what are the signs to look for that indicate under (or over)
> fertilisation? How much should I experiment?
>
> Am I on the right track here?

No manufacturer should indicate dosages as it's empirical. I suggest you
post in r.a.f.plants to draw on their greater depth of experience in
tweaking inputs to control algae.

My less-experienced suggestion would be to stop fertilizing. Everything
will stop growing (or significantly slow) when it has encountered a trace
mineral constraint, and hopefully the algae will be affected before the
plants. Having said that, I usually control brush algae with scissors
;~) cutting off affected leaves (or scrubbing Anubius leaves), but I'm no
expert.

NetMax

[RedForeman ©®]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Peps" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I have read lots that stresses the importance of balancing nutients,
> > light and C02 in a planted aquarium, but little that tells me in simple
> > terms how.
> >
> > My latest 55g aquarium is about a month old, is heavily planted and I
> > inject DIY CO2 which measures about 20ppm. My substrate is just gravel,
> > into which I push fertiliser tablets, and I add a rotation of different
> > liquid fertilisers according to instructions (typically once a week).
> My
> > lighting is 2 x 4ft and 1 x 18" flouros (I think that is about 100W).
> >
> > The tank is well and truly cicled. Nitrates and phospates are very low.
> >
> > The plants are growing really well - no complaints there, but I have
> > just begun to the first signs of green algae, and I think brush algae.
> > Yes - I have a variety of algae-eating fish including 5 SAEs and a
> > (still small) Bristlenose.
> >
> > I don't think I should be getting the algae at all!, but I suspect that
> > given the rate of the plants growth, I am not fertilising enough. (That
> > is that there are fish-produced nutrients left over for the algae.
> >
> > None of the fertiliser manufacturers state different doses depending on
> > the density and growth rate of the plants. This seems wrong.
> >
> > So... what are the signs to look for that indicate under (or over)
> > fertilisation? How much should I experiment?
> >
> > Am I on the right track here?
>
> No manufacturer should indicate dosages as it's empirical. I suggest you
> post in r.a.f.plants to draw on their greater depth of experience in
> tweaking inputs to control algae.
>
> My less-experienced suggestion would be to stop fertilizing. Everything
> will stop growing (or significantly slow) when it has encountered a trace
> mineral constraint, and hopefully the algae will be affected before the
> plants. Having said that, I usually control brush algae with scissors
> ;~) cutting off affected leaves (or scrubbing Anubius leaves), but I'm no
> expert.
>
> NetMax

Ok, let the algae expert speak up.... hahaha....

i'm not really an expert, I just play one on the newsgroups... *(just
kidding about both)*

In my recent expericne, no CO2 meant I got algae, not enough ferts, I got
algae.... Somehow it has dawned on me, that maybe it's nitrAtes.... check
them... get a kit and see... Mine were/are/probably always will be off the
charts... and that s not really good..

[[email protected]]

Peps > wrote in message >...
> I have read lots that stresses the importance of balancing nutients,
> light and C02 in a planted aquarium, but little that tells me in simple
> terms how.
>
> My latest 55g aquarium is about a month old, is heavily planted and I
> inject DIY CO2 which measures about 20ppm. My substrate is just gravel,
> into which I push fertiliser tablets, and I add a rotation of different
> liquid fertilisers according to instructions (typically once a week). My
> lighting is 2 x 4ft and 1 x 18" flouros (I think that is about 100W).
>
> The tank is well and truly cicled. Nitrates and phospates are very low.
>
> The plants are growing really well - no complaints there, but I have
> just begun to the first signs of green algae, and I think brush algae.
> Yes - I have a variety of algae-eating fish including 5 SAEs and a
> (still small) Bristlenose.
>
> I don't think I should be getting the algae at all!, but I suspect that
> given the rate of the plants growth, I am not fertilising enough. (That
> is that there are fish-produced nutrients left over for the algae.
>
> None of the fertiliser manufacturers state different doses depending on
> the density and growth rate of the plants. This seems wrong.
>
> So... what are the signs to look for that indicate under (or over)
> fertilisation? How much should I experiment?
>
> Am I on the right track here?

Tell you what, I can tell you how and some minor tweaking on your part
will do the rest.This can all be done over the web and can account for
your plant mass etc.

What is the KH?
Do you want to use CO2(or Excel)?

We'll start there and go on.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[[email protected]]

> My latest 55g aquarium is about a month old, is heavily planted and I
> inject DIY CO2 which measures about 20ppm. My substrate is just gravel,
> into which I push fertiliser tablets, and I add a rotation of different
> liquid fertilisers according to instructions (typically once a week). My
> lighting is 2 x 4ft and 1 x 18" flouros (I think that is about 100W).
>

Ahh, ignore that last post of mine.

Try to keep the CO2 at 20-30ppm range, not 20ppm in the morning, it
likely is too low later in the afternoon. Keep a close eye on it over
the week to see what the am and pm pH's are compared to the pH/KH
table.

If you add CO2, you need to add KNO3, KH2PO4/Fleet enema, more traces
than normal(2-3x).

A routine would down like this for a 55 gallon tank:
50% weekly water, prune, trim, clean first, then do the water change.

Afterwards do one dosing.

Later in the week, do one more dosing

One dose:
1/2 teaspoon of KNO3
1/16" teaspoon or so of KH2PO4, or 2-3 drops of Fleet,
10mls of trace.

The water change weekly prevents anything from building up, the 2x a
week dosing prevents anything from running out.

This provides a good range for plants to use the nutrients as they
will always be present in enough concentration and frequency for good
growth at this light intensity.

Be sure to really keep up on CO2.

Try it for two weeks, it's cheap and will dramatically improve plant
growth.

Later: consider flourite or onyx sand, adding gas tank CO2.
Maybe after that, powercompact lights or 3x 32w T-8's or 3 x40 w
T-12's and reflector etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Peps]

>
> A routine would down like this for a 55 gallon tank:
> 50% weekly water, prune, trim, clean first, then do the water change.
>
> Afterwards do one dosing.
>
> Later in the week, do one more dosing
>
> One dose:
> 1/2 teaspoon of KNO3
> 1/16" teaspoon or so of KH2PO4, or 2-3 drops of Fleet,
> 10mls of trace.
>
> The water change weekly prevents anything from building up, the 2x a
> week dosing prevents anything from running out.
>
> Tbanks Tom. Can you please translate the above chemicals into lay
terms/product names (still pretty new at this).

Mike

[Amit]

I'd try to cut off some ferts for a week or two and even try to raise the
CO2 to 25-30PPM.
Many of those liquid ferts are great for plants but also - yes for algae...
What is the photo period ?
Than go back with the ferts....
How about Amano Shrimp ?

Amit Brucker
www.plantica.com

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Peps" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I have read lots that stresses the importance of balancing nutients,
> > light and C02 in a planted aquarium, but little that tells me in simple
> > terms how.
> >
> > My latest 55g aquarium is about a month old, is heavily planted and I
> > inject DIY CO2 which measures about 20ppm. My substrate is just gravel,
> > into which I push fertiliser tablets, and I add a rotation of different
> > liquid fertilisers according to instructions (typically once a week).
> My
> > lighting is 2 x 4ft and 1 x 18" flouros (I think that is about 100W).
> >
> > The tank is well and truly cicled. Nitrates and phospates are very low.
> >
> > The plants are growing really well - no complaints there, but I have
> > just begun to the first signs of green algae, and I think brush algae.
> > Yes - I have a variety of algae-eating fish including 5 SAEs and a
> > (still small) Bristlenose.
> >
> > I don't think I should be getting the algae at all!, but I suspect that
> > given the rate of the plants growth, I am not fertilising enough. (That
> > is that there are fish-produced nutrients left over for the algae.
> >
> > None of the fertiliser manufacturers state different doses depending on
> > the density and growth rate of the plants. This seems wrong.
> >
> > So... what are the signs to look for that indicate under (or over)
> > fertilisation? How much should I experiment?
> >
> > Am I on the right track here?
>
> No manufacturer should indicate dosages as it's empirical. I suggest you
> post in r.a.f.plants to draw on their greater depth of experience in
> tweaking inputs to control algae.
>
> My less-experienced suggestion would be to stop fertilizing. Everything
> will stop growing (or significantly slow) when it has encountered a trace
> mineral constraint, and hopefully the algae will be affected before the
> plants. Having said that, I usually control brush algae with scissors
> ;~) cutting off affected leaves (or scrubbing Anubius leaves), but I'm no
> expert.
>
> NetMax
>
>

[Dunter Powries]

Caridina japonica aren't likely to help with brush algae, if that's the
problem. Neocaridina denticulata might be a better pick.

Whenever I've had black brush algae it's because I've overfertilized iron.
That's the first thing I'd check, anyway.

Here's a link to Arizona Aquatic's shrimp page...
http://www.azgardens.com/shrimpfactory.php


Amit > wrote in message
...
> I'd try to cut off some ferts for a week or two and even try to raise the
> CO2 to 25-30PPM.
> Many of those liquid ferts are great for plants but also - yes for
algae...
> What is the photo period ?
> Than go back with the ferts....
> How about Amano Shrimp ?
>
> Amit Brucker
> www.plantica.com
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > "Peps" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I have read lots that stresses the importance of balancing nutients,
> > > light and C02 in a planted aquarium, but little that tells me in
simple
> > > terms how.
> > >
> > > My latest 55g aquarium is about a month old, is heavily planted and I
> > > inject DIY CO2 which measures about 20ppm. My substrate is just
gravel,
> > > into which I push fertiliser tablets, and I add a rotation of
different
> > > liquid fertilisers according to instructions (typically once a week).
> > My
> > > lighting is 2 x 4ft and 1 x 18" flouros (I think that is about 100W).
> > >
> > > The tank is well and truly cicled. Nitrates and phospates are very
low.
> > >
> > > The plants are growing really well - no complaints there, but I have
> > > just begun to the first signs of green algae, and I think brush algae.
> > > Yes - I have a variety of algae-eating fish including 5 SAEs and a
> > > (still small) Bristlenose.
> > >
> > > I don't think I should be getting the algae at all!, but I suspect
that
> > > given the rate of the plants growth, I am not fertilising enough.
(That
> > > is that there are fish-produced nutrients left over for the algae.
> > >
> > > None of the fertiliser manufacturers state different doses depending
on
> > > the density and growth rate of the plants. This seems wrong.
> > >
> > > So... what are the signs to look for that indicate under (or over)
> > > fertilisation? How much should I experiment?
> > >
> > > Am I on the right track here?
> >
> > No manufacturer should indicate dosages as it's empirical. I suggest
you
> > post in r.a.f.plants to draw on their greater depth of experience in
> > tweaking inputs to control algae.
> >
> > My less-experienced suggestion would be to stop fertilizing. Everything
> > will stop growing (or significantly slow) when it has encountered a
trace
> > mineral constraint, and hopefully the algae will be affected before the
> > plants. Having said that, I usually control brush algae with scissors
> > ;~) cutting off affected leaves (or scrubbing Anubius leaves), but I'm
no
> > expert.
> >
> > NetMax
> >
> >
>
>

[[email protected]]

> > One dose:
> > 1/2 teaspoon of KNO3
> > 1/16" teaspoon or so of KH2PO4, or 2-3 drops of Fleet,
> > 10mls of trace.
> >
> Thanks Tom. Can you please translate the above chemicals into lay
> terms/product names (still pretty new at this).
>
> Mike

KNO3=> stump remover, potassium nitrate(for a source of N)
KH2PO4 mono basic potassium phosphate(for a source of PO4)
Fleet enema=> adds sodium phosphate(PO4)
Traces= micronutrients, Iron, Zinc, Copper,Mn, Boron etc often sold as
CMS dry mix or SeaChem Flourish, Tropica Master Grow etc.

Don't worry so much about the names, Just make each with a N for
nitrogen, PO4 for phosphate, Traces.
There's no chemistry knowledge needed to dose these nor testing if you
do the dosing routine and water changes.

You only add 3 things besides CO2 and tap water dechlorinator.
It's easier than making cookies and you don't have to worry about
buring nothing.

As far as dsoing, CO2 methods go, this is about as simple as you can
get it.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[jefferson]

do you recommend a source for these fertilizer chems?
>One dose:
>1/2 teaspoon of KNO3
>1/16" teaspoon or so of KH2PO4, or 2-3 drops of Fleet,
>10mls of trace.

On 4 Feb 2004 18:13:06 -0800,
) wrote:

>> My latest 55g aquarium is about a month old, is heavily planted and I
>> inject DIY CO2 which measures about 20ppm. My substrate is just gravel,
>> into which I push fertiliser tablets, and I add a rotation of different
>> liquid fertilisers according to instructions (typically once a week). My
>> lighting is 2 x 4ft and 1 x 18" flouros (I think that is about 100W).
>>
>
>Ahh, ignore that last post of mine.
>
>Try to keep the CO2 at 20-30ppm range, not 20ppm in the morning, it
>likely is too low later in the afternoon. Keep a close eye on it over
>the week to see what the am and pm pH's are compared to the pH/KH
>table.
>
>If you add CO2, you need to add KNO3, KH2PO4/Fleet enema, more traces
>than normal(2-3x).
>
>A routine would down like this for a 55 gallon tank:
>50% weekly water, prune, trim, clean first, then do the water change.
>
>Afterwards do one dosing.
>
>Later in the week, do one more dosing
>
>One dose:
>1/2 teaspoon of KNO3
>1/16" teaspoon or so of KH2PO4, or 2-3 drops of Fleet,
>10mls of trace.
>
>The water change weekly prevents anything from building up, the 2x a
>week dosing prevents anything from running out.
>
>This provides a good range for plants to use the nutrients as they
>will always be present in enough concentration and frequency for good
>growth at this light intensity.
>
>Be sure to really keep up on CO2.
>
>Try it for two weeks, it's cheap and will dramatically improve plant
>growth.
>
>Later: consider flourite or onyx sand, adding gas tank CO2.
>Maybe after that, powercompact lights or 3x 32w T-8's or 3 x40 w
>T-12's and reflector etc.
>
>Regards,
>Tom Barr

[Robert Flory]

Been there, followed Tom's advice...and cut back on the length of light.

It works
Bob
" > wrote in message
om...
> > > One dose:
> > > 1/2 teaspoon of KNO3
> > > 1/16" teaspoon or so of KH2PO4, or 2-3 drops of Fleet,
> > > 10mls of trace.
> > >
> > Thanks Tom. Can you please translate the above chemicals into lay
> > terms/product names (still pretty new at this).
> >
> > Mike
>
> KNO3=> stump remover, potassium nitrate(for a source of N)
> KH2PO4 mono basic potassium phosphate(for a source of PO4)
> Fleet enema=> adds sodium phosphate(PO4)
> Traces= micronutrients, Iron, Zinc, Copper,Mn, Boron etc often sold as
> CMS dry mix or SeaChem Flourish, Tropica Master Grow etc.
>
> Don't worry so much about the names, Just make each with a N for
> nitrogen, PO4 for phosphate, Traces.
> There's no chemistry knowledge needed to dose these nor testing if you
> do the dosing routine and water changes.
>
> You only add 3 things besides CO2 and tap water dechlorinator.
> It's easier than making cookies and you don't have to worry about
> buring nothing.
>
> As far as dsoing, CO2 methods go, this is about as simple as you can
> get it.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Barr