What could have possibly killed my biofilter?

[Victor Martinez]

20g long heavily planted tank with Eclipse hood, well established for
about 9 months. Inhabitants include a dozen or so algae eating shrimp,
one big filter feeding shrimp, pigmy cories, ottos, and a golden
ancistrus. I did a 40% water change on Sunday morning. I wanted to try
something, so I used bottled spring water (Ozarca brand) to fill most of
the tank back up. I topped it off with tap water (as usual) which I
condition with Prime. I also added some Fluorish Iron and Excel, as I
usually do. I might have overdone the Fluorish Excel though.
Later that day I went to the fish store and got some praecox rainbowfish
and 2 queen loaches. This 20g tank doubles as my "introduction" tank,
where I put all new fish to acclimate before introducing to the 110g tank.
Sunday night I noticed the pigmy cories acting weirdly and by morning
they were dead, alongside half the new rainbows and the two botias. :(
Water was a bit cloudy, which is not unusual after doing water changes
and dosing fertilizers. After testing the water I was shocked to find
nitrites in it! I took a water sample to the lfs and the guy started
patronizing me by asking if my tank was 2 weeks old. I explained to him
that I was not a newbie and that this tank was very well established. He
said something I did killed my biofilter, but I can't figure out what
that could be. Also, all the shrimp are ok, and those critters are
*very* sensitive to nitrogen compounds.
Any clues? NetMax?
I haven't had more casualties, the rainbows seem happy and the ottos are
ok (!!!). I'll feed very sparingly until the cycle completes again.

--
Victor Martinez
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[RedForeman ©®]

I would venture a guess, but maybe the bottled water isn't so clear and
clean... test it for nitrites....

maybe you had a pH crash because the bottled water may have been RO/DI water
and had no hardness??? again, I'm not a chemist, just a skeptic... I don't
trust bottled water, my wife used to sell water purification systems and she
said they're all full of stuff, except for one, I can't remember which
one...

--
RedForeman ©®




"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> 20g long heavily planted tank with Eclipse hood, well established for
> about 9 months. Inhabitants include a dozen or so algae eating shrimp,
> one big filter feeding shrimp, pigmy cories, ottos, and a golden
> ancistrus. I did a 40% water change on Sunday morning. I wanted to try
> something, so I used bottled spring water (Ozarca brand) to fill most of
> the tank back up. I topped it off with tap water (as usual) which I
> condition with Prime. I also added some Fluorish Iron and Excel, as I
> usually do. I might have overdone the Fluorish Excel though.
> Later that day I went to the fish store and got some praecox rainbowfish
> and 2 queen loaches. This 20g tank doubles as my "introduction" tank,
> where I put all new fish to acclimate before introducing to the 110g tank.
> Sunday night I noticed the pigmy cories acting weirdly and by morning
> they were dead, alongside half the new rainbows and the two botias. :(
> Water was a bit cloudy, which is not unusual after doing water changes
> and dosing fertilizers. After testing the water I was shocked to find
> nitrites in it! I took a water sample to the lfs and the guy started
> patronizing me by asking if my tank was 2 weeks old. I explained to him
> that I was not a newbie and that this tank was very well established. He
> said something I did killed my biofilter, but I can't figure out what
> that could be. Also, all the shrimp are ok, and those critters are
> *very* sensitive to nitrogen compounds.
> Any clues? NetMax?
> I haven't had more casualties, the rainbows seem happy and the ottos are
> ok (!!!). I'll feed very sparingly until the cycle completes again.
>
> --
> Victor Martinez
> Send your spam here:
> Email me here:

[Andy Hill]

Victor Martinez > wrote:
>20g long heavily planted tank with Eclipse hood, well established for
>about 9 months. Inhabitants include a dozen or so algae eating shrimp,
>one big filter feeding shrimp, pigmy cories, ottos, and a golden
>ancistrus. I did a 40% water change on Sunday morning. I wanted to try
>something, so I used bottled spring water (Ozarca brand) to fill most of
>the tank back up. I topped it off with tap water (as usual) which I
>condition with Prime. I also added some Fluorish Iron and Excel, as I
>usually do. I might have overdone the Fluorish Excel though.
>Later that day I went to the fish store and got some praecox rainbowfish
>and 2 queen loaches. This 20g tank doubles as my "introduction" tank,
>where I put all new fish to acclimate before introducing to the 110g tank.
>Sunday night I noticed the pigmy cories acting weirdly and by morning
>they were dead, alongside half the new rainbows and the two botias. :(
>Water was a bit cloudy, which is not unusual after doing water changes
>and dosing fertilizers. After testing the water I was shocked to find
>nitrites in it! I took a water sample to the lfs and the guy started
>patronizing me by asking if my tank was 2 weeks old. I explained to him
>that I was not a newbie and that this tank was very well established. He
>said something I did killed my biofilter, but I can't figure out what
>that could be. Also, all the shrimp are ok, and those critters are
>*very* sensitive to nitrogen compounds.
>Any clues? NetMax?
>I haven't had more casualties, the rainbows seem happy and the ottos are
>ok (!!!). I'll feed very sparingly until the cycle completes again.
>
I sort've doubt that you killed the entire biofillter. I'd suspect some
variation of "old tank syndrome". Check your pH, KH, and GH.

[NetMax]

RedForeman ©® has some good points (now if we can just get him to
bottom-post ;~). Your established fish, however sensitive to nitrogen
products, still have the home ice advantage. They only have one stressor
to deal with, having been perfectly acclimated to the water otherwise
(the exceptions being the Pygmy Corys). Your introduced fish are
adjusting to many parameters (but this you already knew).

There are really too many variables than can be accounted for (tap water,
spring water, iron and organic carbon), and you know as much or more
about this stuff than I do. Here is a possible scenario. Your Ozarca
brand spring water is very high in iron (check the label). Plus you
supplemented with Flourish Iron. You then added Flourish Excel which has
iron reducing properties which promote the ferrous state of iron (FE+2).
Maybe that's a bit too much iron activity for a mineral which might
affect the osmotic ability of the nitrifying bacteria (I almost sound
like I know what I'm talking about ;~).

I also noticed that the Flourish Excel has in their directions - in
capital letters 'do not overdose!'. Maybe you found out why? Why not
send them an email and ask what symptoms would typically be experienced
in an overdose. Give them your scenario below for their comments.
Hopefully you will get expert feedback instead of a form letter (thank
you for using our product, bla bla bla).

NetMax

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> I would venture a guess, but maybe the bottled water isn't so clear and
> clean... test it for nitrites....
>
> maybe you had a pH crash because the bottled water may have been RO/DI
water
> and had no hardness??? again, I'm not a chemist, just a skeptic... I
don't
> trust bottled water, my wife used to sell water purification systems
and she
> said they're all full of stuff, except for one, I can't remember which
> one...
>
> --
> RedForeman ©®
>
>
>
>
> "Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
> ...
> > 20g long heavily planted tank with Eclipse hood, well established for
> > about 9 months. Inhabitants include a dozen or so algae eating
shrimp,
> > one big filter feeding shrimp, pigmy cories, ottos, and a golden
> > ancistrus. I did a 40% water change on Sunday morning. I wanted to
try
> > something, so I used bottled spring water (Ozarca brand) to fill most
of
> > the tank back up. I topped it off with tap water (as usual) which I
> > condition with Prime. I also added some Fluorish Iron and Excel, as I
> > usually do. I might have overdone the Fluorish Excel though.
> > Later that day I went to the fish store and got some praecox
rainbowfish
> > and 2 queen loaches. This 20g tank doubles as my "introduction" tank,
> > where I put all new fish to acclimate before introducing to the 110g
tank.
> > Sunday night I noticed the pigmy cories acting weirdly and by morning
> > they were dead, alongside half the new rainbows and the two botias.
:(
> > Water was a bit cloudy, which is not unusual after doing water
changes
> > and dosing fertilizers. After testing the water I was shocked to find
> > nitrites in it! I took a water sample to the lfs and the guy started
> > patronizing me by asking if my tank was 2 weeks old. I explained to
him
> > that I was not a newbie and that this tank was very well established.
He
> > said something I did killed my biofilter, but I can't figure out what
> > that could be. Also, all the shrimp are ok, and those critters are
> > *very* sensitive to nitrogen compounds.
> > Any clues? NetMax?
> > I haven't had more casualties, the rainbows seem happy and the ottos
are
> > ok (!!!). I'll feed very sparingly until the cycle completes again.
> >
> > --
> > Victor Martinez
> > Send your spam here:
> > Email me here:
>
>

[Victor Martinez]

NetMax wrote:
> about this stuff than I do. Here is a possible scenario. Your Ozarca
> brand spring water is very high in iron (check the label). Plus you

Nope, no iron, but check out the pH!!! No wonder the cories went belly up.
http://www.ozarkawater.com/natural/hydro.asp

> capital letters 'do not overdose!'. Maybe you found out why? Why not
> send them an email and ask what symptoms would typically be experienced
> in an overdose. Give them your scenario below for their comments.

I'll let y'all know if they reply.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[RedForeman ©®]

"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
> NetMax wrote:
> > about this stuff than I do. Here is a possible scenario. Your Ozarca
> > brand spring water is very high in iron (check the label). Plus you
>
> Nope, no iron, but check out the pH!!! No wonder the cories went belly up.
> http://www.ozarkawater.com/natural/hydro.asp
>
> > capital letters 'do not overdose!'. Maybe you found out why? Why not
> > send them an email and ask what symptoms would typically be experienced
> > in an overdose. Give them your scenario below for their comments.
>
> I'll let y'all know if they reply.


what pH were you running before you added the bottled death, I mean water...

--
RedForeman ©®

[The Kenosha Kid]

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 03:51:55 GMT, Victor Martinez >
wrote:
<<snip>>
>
>Nope, no iron, but check out the pH!!! No wonder the cories went belly up.
>http://www.ozarkawater.com/natural/hydro.asp
>
<<snip>>

That is a real stresser. Additionally, decreasing the pH probably got
the iron into solution which would normally precipitate out. So it
could have been a one two punch.

[Gold_fish]

>water purification systems and she
> said they're all full of stuff, except for one, I can't remember which
> one...
>
> --
> RedForeman ©®
I think she ment Doulton, which I use for drinking, my fishes, plants,
etc, I bought it at DoultonUsa.com

Try that :)

[Victor Martinez]

RedForeman ©® wrote:
> what pH were you running before you added the bottled death, I mean water...

Very funny... ;-) Both tanks run at around 6.8-7.0 naturally.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[RedForeman ©®]

"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> RedForeman ©® wrote:
> > what pH were you running before you added the bottled death, I mean
water...
>
> Very funny... ;-) Both tanks run at around 6.8-7.0 naturally.


Sorry, didn't mean to poke too hard....

so when you added the 4.5pH or so to your 6.8-7.0, it probably crashed to
what, 5.2-5.6ish or so??

--
RedForeman ©®

[Victor Martinez]

RedForeman ©® wrote:
> Sorry, didn't mean to poke too hard....

It was funny, actually. In a dark sort of way... :)

> so when you added the 4.5pH or so to your 6.8-7.0, it probably crashed to
> what, 5.2-5.6ish or so??

Hmmm, let me do the math. Gosh, it's been ages since I messed with pH
calculations... why probably since pchem lab back when I was an
undergrad. :) Let's see if I remember how to do it correctly.
It's a 20 gallon tank, say minus 2 gallons worth of rocks, wood, and
plants. That's 18 gallons of water. I took out about 40% of the water,
so that's 10.8 gallons of water at 6.8 pH, plus 5 gallons of water at
4.5 pH, plus 2.2 gallons of water at 9 pH (that's what my tap water
measures at). So... (where's my trusty old HP calculator when I need
it?)... we have:

pH = - log (H+), H+ = 10 ^ (-pH)

so the new pH would be given by:

pH = -log [ sum(volume * [H+])/total volume ]

This gives me a value of 5.05. :(

Of course these numbers fail to include the buffering capacity of the
water, so they are probably off by quite a bit anyway... :)

--
Victor Martinez
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