Big tank (long ish)

[Eddy]

Hi all - wonder if anyone could throw a few ideas my way.

I have a couple of tanks at the moment (35 & 55 Gal) and I'm starting to
think about the future.

In my 55 I've got 3 Oscars who will obviously grow too big for such a small
tank so I'm starting to think about a seriously big unit. There's a nice
corner of my living room that I could happily convert into a tank big enough
for a human to swim in (well almost - 10ft wide x 10ft high x 4 ft front to
back).

Now first off, I'm not nessesserally talking about a tank that fills the
entire area, but I do intend to install, one way or another, something that
my fish will have a happy time in. The area in which the tank will fit is
adjacent to an under stairs cupboard where I could 'hide' all the filtration
gear. Something this big would obviously be quite a focal point of the room
which is also partly why I intend to do it (although I must stress, not the
primary reason).

OK - So I reckon for the moment that time is on my side - My biggest fish is
about 5" so he's got a bit of growing to do yet. Also, although money is an
issue, it's also not a problem as such - I chose to care for these guys so
I'll spend whatever it takes to look after them.

What I need are pointers in is the following ...

1 .. Do I buy a tank or build it? I've seen blueprints for concrete tanks
with thick glass that look great but is this the best way (see next point) -
I'm more than capable either way.

2 .. Glass or Acrylic ? (Yep - I know - if it's acrylic it'll be pre - made,
or at least I assume so , if that's the case then I'll still be able to get
it into the house through some big patio doors at the back)

3 .. Keeping the water clean - Am I talking just about serious filtration
here or are there other factors that come into play with a tank this size
that maybe don't appear in 'smaller' tanks.

4 .. Heating - how's best - should I add heater systems within the
filtration process or in the tank itself? Redundancy will need to be built
in of course - I have a generator in my garage which I can use in case of a
power failure)

5 .. Cleaning - Am I talking about full sized yard brushes to get down to
the substrate or are there better methods? This is unkonwn territory as far
as I'm concerned - I'm used to being able to get my arm to the bottom of a
tank to give it a clean - what happens if I can't reach that far?

Well - I guess that that's it - for the moment - any ideas? I'm going to ask
the same questions at my local big aquarium (Blue Planet - UK) - all
comments / views / critisisms / etc. greatly appreciated.

--
Eddy

[Dinky]

"Eddy" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all - wonder if anyone could throw a few ideas my way.
>


Have you considered the weight? If you have anything other than concrete
slab, what you're proposing will likely cause expensive damage to your home.

billy

[NetMax]

"Eddy" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all - wonder if anyone could throw a few ideas my way.
>
> I have a couple of tanks at the moment (35 & 55 Gal) and I'm starting
to
> think about the future.
>
> In my 55 I've got 3 Oscars who will obviously grow too big for such a
small
> tank so I'm starting to think about a seriously big unit. There's a
nice
> corner of my living room that I could happily convert into a tank big
enough
> for a human to swim in (well almost - 10ft wide x 10ft high x 4 ft
front to
> back).
>
> Now first off, I'm not nessesserally talking about a tank that fills
the
> entire area, but I do intend to install, one way or another, something
that
> my fish will have a happy time in. The area in which the tank will fit
is
> adjacent to an under stairs cupboard where I could 'hide' all the
filtration
> gear. Something this big would obviously be quite a focal point of the
room
> which is also partly why I intend to do it (although I must stress, not
the
> primary reason).
>
> OK - So I reckon for the moment that time is on my side - My biggest
fish is
> about 5" so he's got a bit of growing to do yet. Also, although money
is an
> issue, it's also not a problem as such - I chose to care for these guys
so
> I'll spend whatever it takes to look after them.
>
> What I need are pointers in is the following ...
>
> 1 .. Do I buy a tank or build it? I've seen blueprints for concrete
tanks
> with thick glass that look great but is this the best way (see next
point) -
> I'm more than capable either way.

Wood frame house? Not on the basement floor? You want to integrate it
into the house, and make it look build-in? I think a plywood tank will
satisfy your needs very well. Plywood tanks are woods boxes (2x4s)
which can easily be integrated into a wall of your house (it's all joists
and framing). The spacing on the joists and base are closer together,
and then you use plywood sheets (usually 2 layers, overlapped) and then
seal the interior (epoxy, fiberglas). They can be any shape (ie: L,
diamond-shaped etc) preferably with sharp angles.

> 2 .. Glass or Acrylic ? (Yep - I know - if it's acrylic it'll be pre -
made,
> or at least I assume so , if that's the case then I'll still be able to
get
> it into the house through some big patio doors at the back)

Typically, plywood tanks use one pane (makes them quite economical as
glass/acrylic is expensive stuff. As the single pane is secured by 4
sides, you can exceed the 3 ft. standard height. Whether you use glass
or acrylic depends on your local availability and costs. There are some
operational differences you would want to familiarize yourself with.
Note that while Acrylic is easier to remove scratches from, it also
scratches more easily, and I think that an Oscar with a mouth of gravel
would make a mess of the material.

> 3 .. Keeping the water clean - Am I talking just about serious
filtration
> here or are there other factors that come into play with a tank this
size
> that maybe don't appear in 'smaller' tanks.

Yes, filtration is not linear with volume. Generally, as tanks get
bigger, your filtration requirements increase more slowly, but your
turbulence requirements increase more quickly. To illustrate, a 500g
would be filtered as a 400g but would need the flow rates of a 600g. The
larger volume of water is usually not as high bio-loaded as a smaller
tank, so biological filtration requirements drop down. However this
larger volume needs a lot of gph to reach from one end to the other (it
isn't 18 or 24" from the front to the back anymore).

Note that if your tank will be for Oscars, that these cichlids are in a
weight class of their own ;~) Oscar tanks require more than the usual
amount of circulation, and strong mechanical filtration which does not
clog the biological filtration. It would be a good idea to get your
Oscar acclimated to plants and smaller fish. This will make life in the
bigger tank much easier.

> 4 .. Heating - how's best - should I add heater systems within the
> filtration process or in the tank itself? Redundancy will need to be
built
> in of course - I have a generator in my garage which I can use in case
of a
> power failure)

I would section off a portion of the plywood tank as the filter. This
contains the water, minimizing humidity and leakage points. This is one
of the advantages of a plywood tank. It is quite easy to convert an
unseen corner into a filter. I'd acquire some pond-size sponge filter
sheets and use them to make a wall at a corner. Put a waterpump on the
inside, pumping water through a hole in the sponges, back into the tank.
I'd run the pump output through some PVC until I reached a point far
enough away from the filter, to ensure good circulation. I'd point the
output back towards the filter along the bottom of the tank (effectively
rolling any detritus towards the filter). This is just one of many ways
to do it. The heaters would sit in the section behind the sponge wall.
You could also dedicate an area back there for growing fine plants under
high light. This would be your nitrate filter, a biological scrubber.

In the event of a power failure, you might not need to worry much. That
volume of water won't change temperature quickly. The sponge filter
described is completely submerged, so will not suffer a complete die-off.
The lighting won't even be missed by your Oscars for a day or two (like a
few days of thunderstorms in the Amazon river ;~) With size, everything
gets easier.

> 5 .. Cleaning - Am I talking about full sized yard brushes to get down
to
> the substrate or are there better methods? This is unkonwn territory as
far
> as I'm concerned - I'm used to being able to get my arm to the bottom
of a
> tank to give it a clean - what happens if I can't reach that far?

This is where depth is an important factor. With a custom installation,
you can build access panels wherever you need them, and you can test your
reach from different points (before you laminate everything). Typically,
your reach is about 2 feet, 3' with extensions. This is where it's
helpful to have a clean-up crew. A lush garden of Anubius might hide
some of the smaller cleaners. Careful aquascaping takes care of most of
the rest (ie: angle the sides away from the front glass so that you can't
see the algae growing there easily, or reduce the lighting in those
areas, or slide a panel down which gets removed and scrubbed etc etc).

Here's my links for plywood tanks. I haven't checked them in many
months, so hopefully they are not all dead links (you might need to play
with the address a bit).
http://members.shaw.ca/wmastop/bigtank/Startb~1.htm
http://www.marksfish.f9.co.uk/diy/plywood.htm
http://www.garf.org/news21p3.html#jake
http://www.athiel.com/lib6/tank.htm#CUT
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aquariumdiy/
http://www.garf.org/sitemap.html
http://nucalf.physics.fsu.edu/pfohl/Fish/Diy/tanks
http://ozreef.org/diy/index.html
http://www.garf.org/news19p3.html#wood
http://www.garf.org/news18p2.html#plan
http://www.thekrib.com/TankHardware/wood-tank.html#0

> Well - I guess that that's it - for the moment - any ideas? I'm going
to ask
> the same questions at my local big aquarium (Blue Planet - UK) - all
> comments / views / critisisms / etc. greatly appreciated.

Don't go by what the first clerk tells you, no matter how authoritive he
sounds. Gather many opinions & ideas. You will need to have a structural
integrity review done. The load lines must be brought down to your
foundation in a straight vertical path. This is not a big deal, but will
give you peace of mind, and keep your insurance company off your back.
What size are you going for? I would not go smaller than 400g if I was
going to the trouble of a custom tank. A 10 x 10 x 4 area will hold
3,000 us gallons (26,180 lbs.). For a corner unit, if you find a pane
which is 8' x 3' (a reasonable size), your tank would be around 800g
(7000 lbs) using a 42" height. That's a nice working size :o)

NetMax

> --
> Eddy

[Eddy]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Wood frame house? Not on the basement floor? You want to integrate it
> into the house, and make it look build-in? I think a plywood tank will
> satisfy your needs very well. Plywood tanks are woods boxes (2x4s)
> which can easily be integrated into a wall of your house (it's all joists
> and framing). The spacing on the joists and base are closer together,
> and then you use plywood sheets (usually 2 layers, overlapped) and then
> seal the interior (epoxy, fiberglas). They can be any shape (ie: L,
> diamond-shaped etc) preferably with sharp angles.

The house is built of brick with a concrete base (6" thick) where the tank
will be. I'll run in some more concrete with reinforcement to make a plynth
to bring the tank up to the required height. I'll have an architect friend
check out any strength / weight issues.

> > 2 .. Glass or Acrylic ?>
> Typically, plywood tanks use one pane (makes them quite economical as
> glass/acrylic is expensive stuff. As the single pane is secured by 4
> sides, you can exceed the 3 ft. standard height. Whether you use glass
> or acrylic depends on your local availability and costs. There are some
> operational differences you would want to familiarize yourself with.
> Note that while Acrylic is easier to remove scratches from, it also
> scratches more easily, and I think that an Oscar with a mouth of gravel
> would make a mess of the material.

Makes sense - Glass is what we make round here - There are two major glass
manufacturers within 5 miles of my house.

> > 3 .. Keeping the water clean - Am I talking just about serious
filtration
> Yes, filtration is not linear with volume. Generally, as tanks get
> bigger, your filtration requirements increase more slowly, but your
> turbulence requirements increase more quickly. To illustrate, a 500g
> would be filtered as a 400g but would need the flow rates of a 600g. The
> larger volume of water is usually not as high bio-loaded as a smaller
> tank, so biological filtration requirements drop down. However this
> larger volume needs a lot of gph to reach from one end to the other (it
> isn't 18 or 24" from the front to the back anymore).
> Note that if your tank will be for Oscars, that these cichlids are in a
> weight class of their own ;~) Oscar tanks require more than the usual
> amount of circulation, and strong mechanical filtration which does not
> clog the biological filtration. It would be a good idea to get your
> Oscar acclimated to plants and smaller fish. This will make life in the
> bigger tank much easier.

They're already happy with plants - they don't (yet) dig them up or try to
shred them. I'll look into some smaller fish (with plenty of hiding places).

> > 4 .. Heating - how's best
> I would section off a portion of the plywood tank as the filter. This
> contains the water, minimizing humidity and leakage points. This is one
> of the advantages of a plywood tank. It is quite easy to convert an
> unseen corner into a filter. I'd acquire some pond-size sponge filter
> sheets and use them to make a wall at a corner. Put a waterpump on the
> inside, pumping water through a hole in the sponges, back into the tank.
> I'd run the pump output through some PVC until I reached a point far
> enough away from the filter, to ensure good circulation. I'd point the
> output back towards the filter along the bottom of the tank (effectively
> rolling any detritus towards the filter). This is just one of many ways
> to do it. The heaters would sit in the section behind the sponge wall.
> You could also dedicate an area back there for growing fine plants under
> high light. This would be your nitrate filter, a biological scrubber.

I like this idea - and especially plants growing 'behind' the filter. The
position of the tank would make this a very viable scenario.

> In the event of a power failure, you might not need to worry much. That
> volume of water won't change temperature quickly. The sponge filter
> described is completely submerged, so will not suffer a complete die-off.
> The lighting won't even be missed by your Oscars for a day or two (like a
> few days of thunderstorms in the Amazon river ;~) With size, everything
> gets easier.

Sounds fair.

> What size are you going for? I would not go smaller than 400g if I was
> going to the trouble of a custom tank. A 10 x 10 x 4 area will hold
> 3,000 us gallons (26,180 lbs.). For a corner unit, if you find a pane
> which is 8' x 3' (a reasonable size), your tank would be around 800g
> (7000 lbs) using a 42" height. That's a nice working size :o)
>
> NetMax

I was thinking in the region of 750 - 1000g so the 8 x 3 is already looking
favourable.

Thanks for the advice, it's given me a lot to think about. This is going to
be quite a long term project as I'm doing quite a bit of building work on my
house (adding extra rooms) which I only get to work on at weekends but it
does mean that I'm forced not to rush into any particular way of doing
things.

I'll keep you posted over the next few months !

Thanks again.

--
Eddy

[Dustin The-Wind]

Check out the site below for some ideas.

They do build custom tanks, but any tank longer than 8 feet you may have
to pick up yourself (Tennessee) ..or.. Check out the "show list" where
you could maybe pick it up closer to home.

My two Oscars have out grown their 75 Gallon Tank. Since the living room
part of my apartment is a converted two car garage (cement slab) ~ I
have my site set on the 240 Gallon 96x24x25. The tank weighs 400lbs. The
water alone will weigh 2,136.94 pounds.

http://65.197.157.223/newto/pages/main.asp

[John >]

http://www.marksfish.me.uk/

JOhn ><>

"Eddy" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all - wonder if anyone could throw a few ideas my way.
>
> I have a couple of tanks at the moment (35 & 55 Gal) and I'm starting to
> think about the future.
>
> In my 55 I've got 3 Oscars who will obviously grow too big for such a
small
> tank so I'm starting to think about a seriously big unit. There's a nice
> corner of my living room that I could happily convert into a tank big
enough
> for a human to swim in (well almost - 10ft wide x 10ft high x 4 ft front
to
> back).
>
> Now first off, I'm not nessesserally talking about a tank that fills the
> entire area, but I do intend to install, one way or another, something
that
> my fish will have a happy time in. The area in which the tank will fit is
> adjacent to an under stairs cupboard where I could 'hide' all the
filtration
> gear. Something this big would obviously be quite a focal point of the
room
> which is also partly why I intend to do it (although I must stress, not
the
> primary reason).
>
> OK - So I reckon for the moment that time is on my side - My biggest fish
is
> about 5" so he's got a bit of growing to do yet. Also, although money is
an
> issue, it's also not a problem as such - I chose to care for these guys so
> I'll spend whatever it takes to look after them.
>
> What I need are pointers in is the following ...
>
> 1 .. Do I buy a tank or build it? I've seen blueprints for concrete tanks
> with thick glass that look great but is this the best way (see next
point) -
> I'm more than capable either way.
>
> 2 .. Glass or Acrylic ? (Yep - I know - if it's acrylic it'll be pre -
made,
> or at least I assume so , if that's the case then I'll still be able to
get
> it into the house through some big patio doors at the back)
>
> 3 .. Keeping the water clean - Am I talking just about serious filtration
> here or are there other factors that come into play with a tank this size
> that maybe don't appear in 'smaller' tanks.
>
> 4 .. Heating - how's best - should I add heater systems within the
> filtration process or in the tank itself? Redundancy will need to be built
> in of course - I have a generator in my garage which I can use in case of
a
> power failure)
>
> 5 .. Cleaning - Am I talking about full sized yard brushes to get down to
> the substrate or are there better methods? This is unkonwn territory as
far
> as I'm concerned - I'm used to being able to get my arm to the bottom of a
> tank to give it a clean - what happens if I can't reach that far?
>
> Well - I guess that that's it - for the moment - any ideas? I'm going to
ask
> the same questions at my local big aquarium (Blue Planet - UK) - all
> comments / views / critisisms / etc. greatly appreciated.
>
> --
> Eddy
>
>

[NetMax]

"John ><(((\">" > wrote in
message et...
> http://www.marksfish.me.uk/
>
> JOhn ><>
<snip>

Section on DIY plywood. Bookmarked, thanks JOhn.

NetMax