bully angel

[Tedd Jacobs]

i have one angel who is the bully of the tank and keeps the others all hiding in
the plants for safety from it. what, if anything, can i do to even things out in
the tank so that they are not all always hiding.

the tank is a 25 gal. tall and has been cycled for over a year. it is almost a
species only tank with 4 angels, 3 oto's and 2 ADFs. the angels are all under a
year and a half old, with two that are adult sized (one about a year old and the
other almost a year and a half old) and one that has just reached adult size and
one that looks like it's growth has stunted at 3/4 size (both about 6-8 months
old). all were purchased as juveniles and have been raised together in the same
tank. this behavior has been ongoing with almost tiger barb tenacity in sparing
and establishing dominance in a roundy-round pattern that has had all of them on
the giving and receiving ends at one time or another. only recently within the
last month it has seemed to be getting worse with one angel (the second oldest)
establishing itself at the 'top-dog' position and running the others off.

any ideas about what i can do to even things out a bit?

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: bully angel
>From: "Tedd Jacobs"
>Date: 2/6/2004 9:50 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>i have one angel who is the bully of the tank and keeps the others all hiding
>in
>the plants for safety from it. what, if anything, can i do to even things out
>in
>the tank so that they are not all always hiding.
>
>the tank is a 25 gal. tall and has been cycled for over a year. it is almost
>a
>species only tank with 4 angels, 3 oto's and 2 ADFs. the angels are all under
>a
>year and a half old, with two that are adult sized (one about a year old and
>the
>other almost a year and a half old) and one that has just reached adult size
>and
>one that looks like it's growth has stunted at 3/4 size (both about 6-8
>months
>old). all were purchased as juveniles and have been raised together in the
>same
>tank. this behavior has been ongoing with almost tiger barb tenacity in
>sparing
>and establishing dominance in a roundy-round pattern that has had all of them
>on
>the giving and receiving ends at one time or another. only recently within
>the
>last month it has seemed to be getting worse with one angel (the second
>oldest)
>establishing itself at the 'top-dog' position and running the others off.
>
>any ideas about what i can do to even things out a bit?

Well, you're not going to want to hear this, but you probably already know
this.
The tank is just to small for 4 adult Angelfish.
With the territories involved, there isn't enough room.
In my 75g, I have 6 Angels. When they're fully grown, I may take 2 out and
transfer them to another tank if territorial issues pop up.
You have 4 in a 25g, and "tall" to boot.
Hex or thin, tall tanks aren't good for Angelfish, as they swim horizontally,
not vertically.
You may want to consider removing the most aggressive, or even a pair to
another tank.
Has any of these adults paired off?
This could be the entire reason for all this bickering and territory squabbles.

[Rick]

"Tedd Jacobs" > wrote in message
...
> i have one angel who is the bully of the tank and keeps the others all
hiding in
> the plants for safety from it. what, if anything, can i do to even things
out in
> the tank so that they are not all always hiding.
>
> the tank is a 25 gal. tall and has been cycled for over a year. it is
almost a
> species only tank with 4 angels, 3 oto's and 2 ADFs. the angels are all
under a
> year and a half old, with two that are adult sized (one about a year old
and the
> other almost a year and a half old) and one that has just reached adult
size and
> one that looks like it's growth has stunted at 3/4 size (both about 6-8
months
> old). all were purchased as juveniles and have been raised together in the
same
> tank. this behavior has been ongoing with almost tiger barb tenacity in
sparing
> and establishing dominance in a roundy-round pattern that has had all of
them on
> the giving and receiving ends at one time or another. only recently within
the
> last month it has seemed to be getting worse with one angel (the second
oldest)
> establishing itself at the 'top-dog' position and running the others off.
>
> any ideas about what i can do to even things out a bit?
>
>

if they are anything like my Angels then your in for a bit of a struggle. I
started off with 7 from the same spawn. I'm down to 4 now (2 pairs) the rest
were literally killed off. I had to separate the two pairs into separate
tanks as one pair is much larger and constantly attacks the others. The
large pair have spawned twice , once the eggs were not fertilized , the 2nd
time they age the eggs. After the 2nd spawn the female bullied the male
until I was forced to remove it to an isolation tank for treatment for fin
and scale damage. Once better I put him back in the tank with the female and
this time he is dominant and they finally seem to be getting along, although
they have not spawned again. So , IMO you solution is to remove the dominant
fish and a "time out" if you have another tank and then reintroduce her back
into the tank by which time one of the other fish will have become the
dominant one in the tank.

Rick

[Tedd Jacobs]

"TYNK 7" wrote...
> >Subject: bully angel
> >From: "Tedd Jacobs"


> >any ideas about what i can do to even things out a bit?
>
> Well, you're not going to want to hear this, but you probably already know
> this.
> The tank is just to small for 4 adult Angelfish.
> With the territories involved, there isn't enough room.
> In my 75g, I have 6 Angels. When they're fully grown, I may take 2 out and
> transfer them to another tank if territorial issues pop up.
> You have 4 in a 25g, and "tall" to boot.
> Hex or thin, tall tanks aren't good for Angelfish, as they swim horizontally,
> not vertically.
> You may want to consider removing the most aggressive, or even a pair to
> another tank.
> Has any of these adults paired off?

i dont know, everytime i think they have paired up they shuffle again. i've
never been able to tell. my forte is tiger barbs, i suck at reading angels. :-\

> This could be the entire reason for all this bickering and territory
squabbles.

i'll just take one out and put it with the tiger barbs then (kidding!!). hmm,
this looks like another good reason to tell the wife i need to buy another tank
(again). in the short term i'll watch some more to see if there is a pair that
have matched up and if i can identify territorial areas. then maybe i can move
one to another tank (the 10 gal. with a pair of platys is the only one
available) to alleviate some of the tension. i'm not sure how i feel about
isolating one in something as small as a 10, although i suppose it's better than
being cooped up in a corner behind the plants.

[Jim Morcombe]

I just gave up and left them to their battles.

I have shifted my angels around into different tanks. I even had the worse
offender in solitary confinement for six months (Where he really got
punished through a series of dumb accidents - a real miracle he survived).

Even after six months on his own and coming so close to death that I was
sure he was a goner, he took up right from before and became the tank bully.

I have six angels living together in a 500 liter tank (2' x 2' x 4') that is
heavily planted and has trees and caves and rocks.

They still can't live in Christian harmony.

Jim

Rick > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tedd Jacobs" > wrote in message
> ...
> > i have one angel who is the bully of the tank and keeps the others all
> hiding in
> > the plants for safety from it. what, if anything, can i do to even
things
> out in
> > the tank so that they are not all always hiding.
> >
> > the tank is a 25 gal. tall and has been cycled for over a year. it is
> almost a
> > species only tank with 4 angels, 3 oto's and 2 ADFs. the angels are all
> under a
> > year and a half old, with two that are adult sized (one about a year old
> and the
> > other almost a year and a half old) and one that has just reached adult
> size and
> > one that looks like it's growth has stunted at 3/4 size (both about 6-8
> months
> > old). all were purchased as juveniles and have been raised together in
the
> same
> > tank. this behavior has been ongoing with almost tiger barb tenacity in
> sparing
> > and establishing dominance in a roundy-round pattern that has had all of
> them on
> > the giving and receiving ends at one time or another. only recently
within
> the
> > last month it has seemed to be getting worse with one angel (the second
> oldest)
> > establishing itself at the 'top-dog' position and running the others
off.
> >
> > any ideas about what i can do to even things out a bit?
> >
> >
>
> if they are anything like my Angels then your in for a bit of a struggle.
I
> started off with 7 from the same spawn. I'm down to 4 now (2 pairs) the
rest
> were literally killed off. I had to separate the two pairs into separate
> tanks as one pair is much larger and constantly attacks the others. The
> large pair have spawned twice , once the eggs were not fertilized , the
2nd
> time they age the eggs. After the 2nd spawn the female bullied the male
> until I was forced to remove it to an isolation tank for treatment for fin
> and scale damage. Once better I put him back in the tank with the female
and
> this time he is dominant and they finally seem to be getting along,
although
> they have not spawned again. So , IMO you solution is to remove the
dominant
> fish and a "time out" if you have another tank and then reintroduce her
back
> into the tank by which time one of the other fish will have become the
> dominant one in the tank.
>
> Rick
>
>

[Tedd Jacobs]

"Jim Morcombe" wrote...
> I just gave up and left them to their battles.
>
> I have shifted my angels around into different tanks. I even had the worse
> offender in solitary confinement for six months (Where he really got
> punished through a series of dumb accidents - a real miracle he survived).
>
> Even after six months on his own and coming so close to death that I was
> sure he was a goner, he took up right from before and became the tank bully.
>
> I have six angels living together in a 500 liter tank (2' x 2' x 4') that is
> heavily planted and has trees and caves and rocks.
>
> They still can't live in Christian harmony.

why hasnt anyone introduced this species to counseling?

[Rick]

"Jim Morcombe" > wrote in message
...
> I just gave up and left them to their battles.
>
> I have shifted my angels around into different tanks. I even had the
worse
> offender in solitary confinement for six months (Where he really got
> punished through a series of dumb accidents - a real miracle he survived).
>
> Even after six months on his own and coming so close to death that I was
> sure he was a goner, he took up right from before and became the tank
bully.
>
> I have six angels living together in a 500 liter tank (2' x 2' x 4') that
is
> heavily planted and has trees and caves and rocks.
>
> They still can't live in Christian harmony.
>
> Jim
>


they can be very frustrating fish. Yesterday at our Aquarium Society meeting
I was talking to one of our members who breeds them on a regular basis. She
was experiencing the same problems and appeared to have resolved it by
adding some dither fish to her tank. The Angels were spending more time
chasing the Platty's then each other. Worth a try I guess.

Rick

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)

>Subject: Re: bully angel
>From: "Tedd Jacobs"
>Date: 2/7/2004 4:19 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>

>> Has any of these adults paired off?

>i dont know, everytime i think they have paired up they shuffle again. i've
>never been able to tell. my forte is tiger barbs, i suck at reading angels.
>:-\

You'll get it soon enough, Tedd.
Once you start putting together the body movements with the reasons....it's
absolutely wonderful "listening" to your fish.
= )
However, when you have a bully in a mix of otherwise nicely behaved Angels (no
pun intended), it can drive you mad. I can understand the frustration of not
knowing why they do this or what it all means.
The best thing you can do is pull up a chair, grab something to drink (your
choice), and just park your butt for a while.
Give them a little snack to eat and watch how they behave after the first rush
of snatching up food is over.
When they're hunting around for tidbits...watch who is chased and nipped, or is
given a bluff.
The posture of the "chaser" isn't the same as when an Angel is defending a
territrory because of current or upcoming fry/eggs.
When this is happening....the Angel, male or female, will have every fin on
it's body held erect, and the ventral fins are held so far apart that you'll
think it's going to split it's self. = )~
As it's going after the intended victim, it will hold it's body (every fin
erect) on an angle and take off after the poor fish (who is quickly going to
wish he was not in that tank at that very moment. = /).
Sometimes an established pair will battle.
This is usually a test to see if either mate is still worthy.
I once had a pair that would beat the heck out of eath other before spawning.
(I guess they thought they were Bettas).
= )~
Some pairs will only "flash"...a jerky like posturing with dorsal and anal fins
held erect, and or have a tug o war lip lock session.
That right there looks the most painful to me.
Watching some males do this over a female...oh man can that get nasty.
I once saw an Angel pull so hard on the other guy's lip that it looked like
rubber it streched so far.
It'll all make sense soon.