Old Tank syndrom conundrum...long

[bannor]

I have 4 tanks in my home...

3 of the four are suffering from Old-tank syndrome.

ph is 7.6
temp is 78f
nitrite is 0 (zero)
amonia is 0 (zero)
but nitrAte is over the test kits limit. ie: >160ppm.

I change 25% weekly from well water that has 5 ppm nitrate. I know
that I am adding nitrate back into the system, but the total should be
getting lower.

My gh and kh are high... 22gh and 16kh in the tank but 28gh and 22-24
kh from the 'tap'.

now the question.

how much of a water change would be safe with this high a hardness
level? I mean, can I change more than 25% at a time without changing
the somotic pressure too much? Can I do more than one change in a 24
hour period or more than one every 48 hours?

I have been fighting this for a while. I have changed 25% every other
day for 2 weeks but I can't seem to get the nitrAte to lower any.

Note: all the tanks have undergravel filters, all also have at least
2 other filters running on them.
tank 1) 55 gal, Fluval 303 with Bio max, Fluval pre-filter bio-rings,
and 4 spongers along with a Supreme 1200 (600 gph HOT, floss and lava
rock) and a 30 gallon long undergravel driven by air-stones
tank2) 55 gal, Fluval 404 with Prefilter sponge, 3 levels of lava rock
and one level of bio-max rings along with a Marineland HOT pro (with
bio-wheel) and a 55 gal undergravel, half driven by power head and
half driven by airstones.
tank3) 29 gal, Aquaclear 300 3 levels of sponges, whisper (20 gal
size) all filter floss only along with a air driven undergravel
filter.
Tank4) 10 gal, Eclipse filter and hood, 5 gal undergravel filter air
driven.

I have read some posts suggesting that I should remove power from the
undergravel filters and simply leave them there as a 'plenum' for a a
freshwater tank... one of the sites I read stated that this would
enable anaerobic bacteria to break down DOCs... any thoughts,
suggestions or experience with any of this sort of thing?

[Victor Martinez]

bannor wrote:
> I have been fighting this for a while. I have changed 25% every other
> day for 2 weeks but I can't seem to get the nitrAte to lower any.

Have you tried something like Seachem's deNitrate?

--
Victor Martinez
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[bannor]

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:06:03 GMT, Victor Martinez >
wrote:

>bannor wrote:
>> I have been fighting this for a while. I have changed 25% every other
>> day for 2 weeks but I can't seem to get the nitrAte to lower any.
>
>Have you tried something like Seachem's deNitrate?

Yes, actually, 250 ml in the two 55's right now in the fluval filters.
Supposed to be enough to drop the NO3 by 15ppm per 100 gallons. That
should be enough to drop it by 30ppm in each tank. Doesn't seem to be
lowering it much though.

As I said, the NO3 kit I have reads up to 160ppm and it hits that mark
after less than 60 seconds even though you are supposed to wait for 5
full minutes.

[Victor Martinez]

bannor wrote:
> Yes, actually, 250 ml in the two 55's right now in the fluval filters.
> Supposed to be enough to drop the NO3 by 15ppm per 100 gallons. That
> should be enough to drop it by 30ppm in each tank. Doesn't seem to be
> lowering it much though.

Don't know if it matters, but the instructions say you have to lower the
nitrate level to around 20 ppm before using it.

--
Victor Martinez
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[bannor]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:30:19 GMT, Victor Martinez >
wrote:

>bannor wrote:
>> Yes, actually, 250 ml in the two 55's right now in the fluval filters.
>> Supposed to be enough to drop the NO3 by 15ppm per 100 gallons. That
>> should be enough to drop it by 30ppm in each tank. Doesn't seem to be
>> lowering it much though.
>
>Don't know if it matters, but the instructions say you have to lower the
>nitrate level to around 20 ppm before using it.

Ooopsss, I thought you were talking about the ion-exchange resins from
Seachem not a liquid... anyway... my problem is that I can't get the
level to drop that low! If I could, I would be fine.... shoot, 30ppm
would be a blessing at this point.

Since no one can seem to provide me with an answer here, I guess I
will just have to do a coupld of daily 50% changes and hope for the
best!

[Victor Martinez]

bannor wrote:
> Ooopsss, I thought you were talking about the ion-exchange resins from
> Seachem not a liquid... anyway... my problem is that I can't get the

That's what I'm talking about.

> level to drop that low! If I could, I would be fine.... shoot, 30ppm
> would be a blessing at this point.

Why not use RO water (with apropriate minerals added of course) just to
get the level low. Then try the resin.

> Since no one can seem to provide me with an answer here, I guess I
> will just have to do a coupld of daily 50% changes and hope for the
> best!

I wouldn't risk such a large water change. Why not do 30% changes every
other week and feed very sparingly.

--
Victor Martinez
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[John L]

"bannor" <bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block> wrote in message
...
> I have 4 tanks in my home...
>
> 3 of the four are suffering from Old-tank syndrome.
>
> ph is 7.6
> temp is 78f
> nitrite is 0 (zero)
> amonia is 0 (zero)
> but nitrAte is over the test kits limit. ie: >160ppm.
>
> I change 25% weekly from well water that has 5 ppm nitrate. I know
> that I am adding nitrate back into the system, but the total should be
> getting lower.
>
> My gh and kh are high... 22gh and 16kh in the tank but 28gh and 22-24
> kh from the 'tap'.
>
<snip>
Did you do a gravel-cleaning with your water changes? A build up in the
gravel will
continue to give you high nitrates, especially in an old tank. I would
usually take down
a tank with an undergravel filter once a year and clean it thoroughly. If
you don't want to
do that, try this:
Start your syphon. Use as small of a tube as you need, but stick it down
the airflow riser
tubes so that it goes under the plastic filter plate. Remove as much
hardware as you need to
get access. You will syphon a bunch of black filth out. Move the tube
around and try to get it all.
You will be surprised by how much comes out, especially after a year or two.
This, and a gravel
cleaning (using a syphon with gravel-cleaning head on it) will get you back
into shape.

jl

[bannor]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:56:17 GMT, "John L"
> wrote:

>Did you do a gravel-cleaning with your water changes? A build up in the
>gravel will continue to give you high nitrates, especially in an old tank. I would
>usually take down a tank with an undergravel filter once a year and clean it thoroughly. If
>you don't want to do that, try this:
>Start your syphon. Use as small of a tube as you need, but stick it down the airflow riser
>tubes so that it goes under the plastic filter plate. Remove as much hardware as you need to
>get access. You will syphon a bunch of black filth out. Move the tube around and try to get it all.
>You will be surprised by how much comes out, especially after a year or two. This, and a gravel
>cleaning (using a syphon with gravel-cleaning head on it) will get you back into shape.

Thanks for the tip, but I do what I thought was a fairly good gravel
vac each time.... Actually it seems that doing the gravel vacs is
making it worse as it loosens sooo much stuff at once. Anyway, I am
now doing 20-30 % each change and vacuming the gravel all the way down
to the filter plates each time about every 3 days Not real sure what
else I can do. I still have not gotten the NO3 down to a measurable
level with the hobby test kit that I have... still over 160 parts per
million.

Eventually it will get down low enough I guess... I have to increase
my plant load more I think and once I get the levels down enough I
will be removing the undergravel... at least I will be turning them
off. I was actually hoping to find someone that was using an
under-gravel as a plenum to see what sort of results they are getting
using that... not really a salt water question as these are all
planted tanks. I have read different opinions on doing this. I
really hate to have to completely tear down 4 tanks to get rid of
these undergravel filters... but I really wish I had not put them in,
in the first place.

I think my problem came from having an old nitrAte test kit that was
no longer working correctly and I thought my levels were good...
either that, or this new test kit is faulty and my levels are actually
lower than it is reading... although I don't really believe tha to be
the case... most of it is just from over-feeding... hard to get the
wife to realize that a "SMALL" pinch is actually supposed to be
_small_.