Tankload of questions (long)

[Polarhound]

Several questions for all of you today. Any advice is appreciated.

At a small wedding I attended last week, we were given a betta along
with all the basic supplies as the table gift. First time I have seen
someone do this, but in his case it is appropriate as the groom is a big
fish fanatic (over 1000gal in tanks, with his family including the likes
of a lungfish, stonefish, buttikoferi, waterdog, oscars, lionfish,
electric eels, rays, and an alligator named Fluffy) and works at an LFS
to boot.

The fish themselves were given in vases along with gravel, water
conditioner, and food, so the basics are taken care of. While he has
been in the vase, he gets a 100% water change and gravel rinse every 3 days.

I've decided to move the betta to a 5gal tank, (possibly an Eclipse Hex
5,) and give him a few mates, most likely 5-6 neon tetras.

Question 1: Is a half dozen neons too many for this tank, based on 1"/gal?

Since I brought the betta home, it has not eaten at all. I have tried
Splendid Betta pellets (that came with the betta), Tetra freeze dried
blood worms, (specifically marked as being good for bettas,) a piece of
frozen blood worm, a piece of Sera Vipan staple flake food, and 1/4
cooked pea.. He won't eat any of it. As well, even though I fish the
food out of the bowl after 15-20min, the gravel rinsings show copious
amounts of waste.

He does move around the bowl, responds to me when I am nearby (but only
when looking from directly above), and has been blowing some bubbles.
Fins are not clamped during movement, and no disease indicators (other
then a tiny gray spot that has since shown up at the base of his dorsal
fin,) and becomes more active if I move him next to one of my other tanks.

Question 2: I know bettas can go a month without starving. Should I
just not feed him for about a week and see if he changes moods? I
realize that the double move (LFS to wedding to home) was likely very
stressful.

Now, on to the new tank. I have several tanks of which I can pull
cultured gravel from. Well, all except Marty's (my 2.5" buttikoferi)
tank.. He's liable to have it spread all over the tank within an hour!
:) However, none of the colors match what I want to use in his new home.

Question 3: If I were to say, put some of the new gravel in a cup
inside one of my current tanks, how long would it reasonably take to
have enough bacteria attach itself to be able to jump-start the new
tank? As an alternative, would it be easier to temporarily install a
corner filter filled with cultured gravel?

Question 4: The only experience I have with a biowheel is in my 75g
tank which had the wheels from day one. Would soaking the new wheel in
one of my established tanks do more than what I asked in question 3?

Now that I mentioned Marty, it brings me to my next question,
specifically feeding.

If I were to dump a whole container of food into his tank (10g until he
grows a bit more) he would probably eat it in 20 minutes. Voracious is
an understatement with him. I feed him once per day, starting with
Tetra mini pellets, then a few flakes, then some freeze dried blood
worms. I know that you should never feed more than they can eat in a
few minutes, but does this include when he's eating like a starved
lunatic? I put in the food in small amounts, of which he always eats in
about 10 seconds flat. Several small pinches (5-6 at a time) of the
pellets, a couple of flakes, then a few bloodworms at a time. Although
sometimes he slows down during the bloodworms, he usually is clamoring
for more when I end the feeding.

Question 5: In a case like this, how much is too much?

Marty is truly a creature of habit. He expects his one big meal a day,
and if you try to feed him at any other point in time he'll ignore it.

(Last question now, I promise!)

When I am cleaning the smaller tanks, it is hard for me to do a proper
cleaning without removing too much water. Specifically, cleaning the
gravel in the 10G is a royal pain. Normally I only get half the gravel
done before I hit the water limit. This is with a manual siphon. Using
a Python is not an option, as I can't get suction running the hose down
a flight of stairs, and the sink on the same level doesn't allow me to
get a good seal to get any suction.

Question 6: Any recommendations on better ways to clean the gravel? I
ask because this problem may be magnified with the 5g tank coming later
today. Should I look into a lower powered battery operated siphon?
Should I rotate scooping portions of the gravel out and rinsing it? The
10g has a little under 1" of gravel at present, with some areas deeper
than others, thanks to Marty's hole digging and plant rearranging antics.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

[Sherm]

I'M ANSEWERING IN CAPS :)
"Polarhound" > wrote in message
...
> Several questions for all of you today. Any advice is appreciated.
>
> At a small wedding I attended last week, we were given a betta along
> with all the basic supplies as the table gift. First time I have seen
> someone do this, but in his case it is appropriate as the groom is a big
> fish fanatic (over 1000gal in tanks, with his family including the likes
> of a lungfish, stonefish, buttikoferi, waterdog, oscars, lionfish,
> electric eels, rays, and an alligator named Fluffy) and works at an LFS
> to boot.
>
> The fish themselves were given in vases along with gravel, water
> conditioner, and food, so the basics are taken care of. While he has
> been in the vase, he gets a 100% water change and gravel rinse every 3
days.
>
> I've decided to move the betta to a 5gal tank, (possibly an Eclipse Hex
> 5,) and give him a few mates, most likely 5-6 neon tetras.
>
> Question 1: Is a half dozen neons too many for this tank, based on
1"/gal?
> THE BETTA MIGHT GO FOR THE FISH AS A MEAL, YOU ARE BETTER OFF GETTING
PLATYS, PLUS THEY DON'T REQUIRE HEAT LIKE THE BETTA, UNLESS YOU WANT TO
SPOIL HIM, THEN GET THE HEATER ;) YOU ARE REALLY GIVING HIM A LOT OF FOOD
CHOCIES, HE'S JUST STOBBORN, HE'LL CHANGE ONCE HE'S HUNGARY.
SOME BETTAS GIVE MORE WASTE THAN OTHERS, IN YOUR CASE A LOT, SO A 5 GAL W/
FILTER+ THE OTHER VARIUS FISH WILL BE GREAT!!!
> Since I brought the betta home, it has not eaten at all. I have tried
> Splendid Betta pellets (that came with the betta), Tetra freeze dried
> blood worms, (specifically marked as being good for bettas,) a piece of
> frozen blood worm, a piece of Sera Vipan staple flake food, and 1/4
> cooked pea.. He won't eat any of it. As well, even though I fish the
> food out of the bowl after 15-20min, the gravel rinsings show copious
> amounts of waste.
>
> He does move around the bowl, responds to me when I am nearby (but only
> when looking from directly above), and has been blowing some bubbles.
> Fins are not clamped during movement, and no disease indicators (other
> then a tiny gray spot that has since shown up at the base of his dorsal
> fin,) and becomes more active if I move him next to one of my other tanks.
>
> Question 2: I know bettas can go a month without starving. Should I
> just not feed him for about a week and see if he changes moods? I
> realize that the double move (LFS to wedding to home) was likely very
> stressful.
> I WOULDN'T STARVE HIM FOR A WEEK, MAYBE A THREE DAY W/OUT FOOD WOULD NOT
SEEM AS CRUEL, BETTAS ARE KNOW AS PIGS SOMETIMES!
> Now, on to the new tank. I have several tanks of which I can pull
> cultured gravel from. Well, all except Marty's (my 2.5" buttikoferi)
> tank.. He's liable to have it spread all over the tank within an hour!
> :) However, none of the colors match what I want to use in his new home.
>
> Question 3: If I were to say, put some of the new gravel in a cup
> inside one of my current tanks, how long would it reasonably take to
> have enough bacteria attach itself to be able to jump-start the new
> tank? As an alternative, would it be easier to temporarily install a
> corner filter filled with cultured gravel?
> YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO W/ A BIO-WHEEL FILTER.
USALLY YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE TO DO THAT (I DIDN'T ANY WAYS, AND MINE ARE
FINE)
> Question 4: The only experience I have with a biowheel is in my 75g
> tank which had the wheels from day one. Would soaking the new wheel in
> one of my established tanks do more than what I asked in question 3?
> I DO'T THINK SO...
> Now that I mentioned Marty, it brings me to my next question,
> specifically feeding.
>
> If I were to dump a whole container of food into his tank (10g until he
> grows a bit more) he would probably eat it in 20 minutes. Voracious is
> an understatement with him. I feed him once per day, starting with
> Tetra mini pellets, then a few flakes, then some freeze dried blood
> worms. I know that you should never feed more than they can eat in a
> few minutes, but does this include when he's eating like a starved
> lunatic? I put in the food in small amounts, of which he always eats in
> about 10 seconds flat. Several small pinches (5-6 at a time) of the
> pellets, a couple of flakes, then a few bloodworms at a time. Although
> sometimes he slows down during the bloodworms, he usually is clamoring
> for more when I end the feeding.
> YOU'LL CLOUD THE TANK VERY VERY FAST, AND BE CHANGING THE FILTER A LOT!
PLUS UNKNOWN DESISAS WILL BE ADDED B/C OF THE FDB. WHITCH GIVES OFF A LOT OF
JUNK IN THE FIRST PLACE, I'D STICK TO THE PELLETS.UNLESS HE DOSEN'T EAT
THEM, THEN FEED HIM THE FDB.
> Question 5: In a case like this, how much is too much?
> IF YOU OVER FEED, HE WILL BECOME BLOATED, AND GET SWIM BLADDER DESIAS, AS
YOU CAN IMAGIN, THIS IS VERY STRESS FULL AND UNCOMFORTABLE FOR THE POOR
FISH.
> Marty is truly a creature of habit. He expects his one big meal a day,
> and if you try to feed him at any other point in time he'll ignore it.
>
> (Last question now, I promise!)
>
> When I am cleaning the smaller tanks, it is hard for me to do a proper
> cleaning without removing too much water. Specifically, cleaning the
> gravel in the 10G is a royal pain. Normally I only get half the gravel
> done before I hit the water limit. This is with a manual siphon. Using
> a Python is not an option, as I can't get suction running the hose down
> a flight of stairs, and the sink on the same level doesn't allow me to
> get a good seal to get any suction.
> GET A LONGER HOSE, DON'T BE TO LAZY LOL :)
> Question 6: Any recommendations on better ways to clean the gravel? I
> ask because this problem may be magnified with the 5g tank coming later
> today. Should I look into a lower powered battery operated siphon?
> Should I rotate scooping portions of the gravel out and rinsing it? The
> 10g has a little under 1" of gravel at present, with some areas deeper
> than others, thanks to Marty's hole digging and plant rearranging antics.
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE FISH OR SOMETHING? IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE A
CICHLID!!
HOLE DIGGING AND PLANT REARRANGING??? WHAT???
NOW I'M LOST! LOL
ELIZABETH
>
> Thanks in advance for your advice.
>

[NetMax]

"Polarhound" > wrote in message
...
> Several questions for all of you today. Any advice is appreciated.
>
> At a small wedding I attended last week, we were given a betta along
> with all the basic supplies as the table gift. First time I have seen
> someone do this, but in his case it is appropriate as the groom is a
big
> fish fanatic (over 1000gal in tanks, with his family including the
likes
> of a lungfish, stonefish, buttikoferi, waterdog, oscars, lionfish,
> electric eels, rays, and an alligator named Fluffy) and works at an LFS
> to boot.
>
> The fish themselves were given in vases along with gravel, water
> conditioner, and food, so the basics are taken care of. While he has
> been in the vase, he gets a 100% water change and gravel rinse every 3
days.

Sounds fine, provided the water parameters are similar enough. I'm not a
big fan of 100% changes, preferring smaller changes as required.

> I've decided to move the betta to a 5gal tank, (possibly an Eclipse Hex
> 5,) and give him a few mates, most likely 5-6 neon tetras.
>
> Question 1: Is a half dozen neons too many for this tank, based on
1"/gal?

Answer 1: No problemo in regards to the biological load. Six Neons are
probably equivilant to only 2 or 3 inches of fish-load. Of course, you
would need to seed the bacteria and/or go up slowly. Understanding
Bettas might give you pause before adding Neons though. They are
attracted (in a bad way) to fish which are very colorful (this is their
territorial nature) and they can/will eat anything they can fit in their
mouths (they are carnivores). These two attributes put Neons (in a small
tank with a Betta) at a higher risk than other fishes. The deciding
factor is usually the particular disposition of the Betta, so ymmv.

> Since I brought the betta home, it has not eaten at all. I have tried
> Splendid Betta pellets (that came with the betta), Tetra freeze dried
> blood worms, (specifically marked as being good for bettas,) a piece of
> frozen blood worm, a piece of Sera Vipan staple flake food, and 1/4
> cooked pea.. He won't eat any of it. As well, even though I fish the
> food out of the bowl after 15-20min, the gravel rinsings show copious
> amounts of waste.

Stop trying to feed him for 2-3 days. Then drop in a few bloodworms. If
they will not eat their favorite food after not eating for 3 days, you
have a problem. Until then, all you might have is a stubborn Betta.

> He does move around the bowl, responds to me when I am nearby (but only
> when looking from directly above), and has been blowing some bubbles.
> Fins are not clamped during movement, and no disease indicators (other
> then a tiny gray spot that has since shown up at the base of his dorsal
> fin,) and becomes more active if I move him next to one of my other
tanks.

Transport mortality is quite high with wedding Bettas. You might be
doing everything right, but the fish is still dealing with the treatment
received from before you took over.

> Question 2: I know bettas can go a month without starving. Should I
> just not feed him for about a week and see if he changes moods? I
> realize that the double move (LFS to wedding to home) was likely very
> stressful.

Already answered above. At least the behavior & appearance are good
signs.

> Now, on to the new tank. I have several tanks of which I can pull
> cultured gravel from. Well, all except Marty's (my 2.5" buttikoferi)
> tank.. He's liable to have it spread all over the tank within an hour!
> :) However, none of the colors match what I want to use in his new
home.
>
> Question 3: If I were to say, put some of the new gravel in a cup
> inside one of my current tanks, how long would it reasonably take to
> have enough bacteria attach itself to be able to jump-start the new
> tank? As an alternative, would it be easier to temporarily install a
> corner filter filled with cultured gravel?

Answer 3: Easier to take a cup of gravel from the established tank and
sit it in the new tank for a few weeks (you idea of a corner filter
works). Note that this mostly seeds a bacteria which is not difficult to
culture anyways, the stuff which breaks down solid wastes. It's the
nitrifying bacteria which takes a bit longer to establish (the bacteria
which coats surfaces, especially near moving water such as filtration
media).

> Question 4: The only experience I have with a biowheel is in my 75g
> tank which had the wheels from day one. Would soaking the new wheel in
> one of my established tanks do more than what I asked in question 3?

Answer 4: Yes, it would, if you could get it seeded well enough.
Ideally, you could swap bio-wheels, but they won't be the same size :-(.
Some squeezings from your older filtration media, into your Eclipse's
filter will jump start the system.

> Now that I mentioned Marty, it brings me to my next question,
> specifically feeding.
>
> If I were to dump a whole container of food into his tank (10g until he
> grows a bit more) he would probably eat it in 20 minutes. Voracious is
> an understatement with him. I feed him once per day, starting with
> Tetra mini pellets, then a few flakes, then some freeze dried blood
> worms. I know that you should never feed more than they can eat in a
> few minutes, but does this include when he's eating like a starved
> lunatic? I put in the food in small amounts, of which he always eats
in
> about 10 seconds flat. Several small pinches (5-6 at a time) of the
> pellets, a couple of flakes, then a few bloodworms at a time. Although
> sometimes he slows down during the bloodworms, he usually is clamoring
> for more when I end the feeding.
>
> Question 5: In a case like this, how much is too much?

Hornet tilapia are voracious eaters and fast growing to over a foot long.
If your filter and water change routine could keep up with it, you can
feed him a lot. Don't be surprised if you are filtering it as a 30g by
the time you need to move him out (the filtration requirement goes up as
a function of the total grams of food introduced, and goes down as a
function of water changes). If you want him to eat less, dropping the
water temperature a bit might help.

> Marty is truly a creature of habit. He expects his one big meal a day,
> and if you try to feed him at any other point in time he'll ignore it.

Neat. I've never seen or heard of this. Discus can be a bit anal about
their feeding routines, but a tilapia? Do some water tests, specifically
NH3/4, NO2 and NO3 and post your results. Many fish are fine with single
large meals (ie: channel cats), while others need to feed more
continuously (ie: Kissing gouramis, small tetras etc). I'm not sure
where the tilapia would fit. As an fast growing omnivore, it's probably
not harming him to eat this way.

> (Last question now, I promise!)
>
> When I am cleaning the smaller tanks, it is hard for me to do a proper
> cleaning without removing too much water. Specifically, cleaning the
> gravel in the 10G is a royal pain. Normally I only get half the gravel
> done before I hit the water limit. This is with a manual siphon.
Using
> a Python is not an option, as I can't get suction running the hose down
> a flight of stairs, and the sink on the same level doesn't allow me to
> get a good seal to get any suction.

I recommend that you gravel vac until your reach your target water volume
change (ie:20%). The following time (1 or 2 weeks), start from where you
left off. Small tanks are typically done that way. Move a decoration on
the tank to indicate what side you are doing next ;~)

> Question 6: Any recommendations on better ways to clean the gravel? I
> ask because this problem may be magnified with the 5g tank coming later
> today. Should I look into a lower powered battery operated siphon?
> Should I rotate scooping portions of the gravel out and rinsing it?
The
> 10g has a little under 1" of gravel at present, with some areas deeper
> than others, thanks to Marty's hole digging and plant rearranging
antics.

Question 6 comes after your promised last question?? ;~) ok, bonus
answer 6: the trick to gravel vacuuming smaller tanks is in being able to
have a finer control over the flow rate, using a resticting valve, or
draining into a pail which is up off the floor, on a chair or something.
If that does not work well enough for you, use a smaller diameter pipe in
the gravel.

cheers
NetMax

> Thanks in advance for your advice.
>

[Polarhound]

Sherm wrote:

>>If I were to dump a whole container of food into his tank (10g until he
>>grows a bit more) he would probably eat it in 20 minutes. Voracious is
>>an understatement with him. I feed him once per day, starting with
>>Tetra mini pellets, then a few flakes, then some freeze dried blood
>>worms. I know that you should never feed more than they can eat in a
>>few minutes, but does this include when he's eating like a starved
>>lunatic? I put in the food in small amounts, of which he always eats in
>>about 10 seconds flat. Several small pinches (5-6 at a time) of the
>>pellets, a couple of flakes, then a few bloodworms at a time. Although
>>sometimes he slows down during the bloodworms, he usually is clamoring
>>for more when I end the feeding.
>>YOU'LL CLOUD THE TANK VERY VERY FAST, AND BE CHANGING THE FILTER A LOT!
>
> PLUS UNKNOWN DESISAS WILL BE ADDED B/C OF THE FDB. WHITCH GIVES OFF A LOT OF
> JUNK IN THE FIRST PLACE, I'D STICK TO THE PELLETS.UNLESS HE DOSEN'T EAT
> THEM, THEN FEED HIM THE FDB.

The tank hasn't ever clouded in the slighest, and the gravel gets
regular cleanings. The filter media normally gets changed once a month.
He'd probably gobble down a cheeseburger if I threw it in there :)

>>Question 5: In a case like this, how much is too much?
>>IF YOU OVER FEED, HE WILL BECOME BLOATED, AND GET SWIM BLADDER DESIAS, AS
>
> YOU CAN IMAGIN, THIS IS VERY STRESS FULL AND UNCOMFORTABLE FOR THE POOR
> FISH.

He has been feed as I listed above for some time, and if anything, he
has gotten MORE active. This is not a choppy stressed active either..
His movements remain very fluid. There has been no sign of bloat
whatsoever. He's healthy, energetic, and full of personality.

>>When I am cleaning the smaller tanks, it is hard for me to do a proper
>>cleaning without removing too much water. Specifically, cleaning the
>>gravel in the 10G is a royal pain. Normally I only get half the gravel
>>done before I hit the water limit. This is with a manual siphon. Using
>>a Python is not an option, as I can't get suction running the hose down
>>a flight of stairs, and the sink on the same level doesn't allow me to
>>get a good seal to get any suction.
>>GET A LONGER HOSE, DON'T BE TO LAZY LOL :)

The hose is long enough.

THe problem is, if I go down one level below the only sink I can get a
solid hookup to, there isn't enough suction to counter gravity and make
water flow upwards.

>>Question 6: Any recommendations on better ways to clean the gravel? I
>>ask because this problem may be magnified with the 5g tank coming later
>>today. Should I look into a lower powered battery operated siphon?
>>Should I rotate scooping portions of the gravel out and rinsing it? The
>>10g has a little under 1" of gravel at present, with some areas deeper
>>than others, thanks to Marty's hole digging and plant rearranging antics.
>
> ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE FISH OR SOMETHING? IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE A
> CICHLID!!
> HOLE DIGGING AND PLANT REARRANGING??? WHAT???
> NOW I'M LOST! LOL

Marty is the buttikoferi with the huge appetite.

[Polarhound]

NetMax wrote:

> Sounds fine, provided the water parameters are similar enough. I'm not a
> big fan of 100% changes, preferring smaller changes as required.

My water source is fairly stable, so no problems there. I'm not a big
fan of 100% changes myself, but given the size of his temporary home and
the need to keep the gravel clean, my options are limited.


>>I've decided to move the betta to a 5gal tank, (possibly an Eclipse Hex
>>5,) and give him a few mates, most likely 5-6 neon tetras.
>>
>>Question 1: Is a half dozen neons too many for this tank, based on
>
> 1"/gal?
>
> Answer 1: No problemo in regards to the biological load. Six Neons are
> probably equivilant to only 2 or 3 inches of fish-load. Of course, you
> would need to seed the bacteria and/or go up slowly. Understanding
> Bettas might give you pause before adding Neons though. They are
> attracted (in a bad way) to fish which are very colorful (this is their
> territorial nature) and they can/will eat anything they can fit in their
> mouths (they are carnivores). These two attributes put Neons (in a small
> tank with a Betta) at a higher risk than other fishes. The deciding
> factor is usually the particular disposition of the Betta, so ymmv.

Guess I'll have to start slowly on them then :)

> Stop trying to feed him for 2-3 days. Then drop in a few bloodworms. If
> they will not eat their favorite food after not eating for 3 days, you
> have a problem. Until then, all you might have is a stubborn Betta.

I think he's taking after me actually <g>


>>Question 3: If I were to say, put some of the new gravel in a cup
>>inside one of my current tanks, how long would it reasonably take to
>>have enough bacteria attach itself to be able to jump-start the new
>>tank? As an alternative, would it be easier to temporarily install a
>>corner filter filled with cultured gravel?
>
>
> Answer 3: Easier to take a cup of gravel from the established tank and
> sit it in the new tank for a few weeks (you idea of a corner filter
> works). Note that this mostly seeds a bacteria which is not difficult to
> culture anyways, the stuff which breaks down solid wastes. It's the
> nitrifying bacteria which takes a bit longer to establish (the bacteria
> which coats surfaces, especially near moving water such as filtration
> media).

Ok, will go that method then. I was thinking about doing the reverse
since I already have a 5lb bag of gravel sitting here on the shelf.

> Answer 4: Yes, it would, if you could get it seeded well enough.
> Ideally, you could swap bio-wheels, but they won't be the same size :-(.
> Some squeezings from your older filtration media, into your Eclipse's
> filter will jump start the system.

Ok, soaking it is.

>>Question 5: In a case like this, how much is too much?
>
>
> Hornet tilapia are voracious eaters and fast growing to over a foot long.
> If your filter and water change routine could keep up with it, you can
> feed him a lot. Don't be surprised if you are filtering it as a 30g by
> the time you need to move him out (the filtration requirement goes up as
> a function of the total grams of food introduced, and goes down as a
> function of water changes). If you want him to eat less, dropping the
> water temperature a bit might help.

Media gets changed about once a month (Whisper 10), and gravel
cleanings/water changes are about 20% twice a week. Ammonia and
Nitrites have not spiked at all.


>>Marty is truly a creature of habit. He expects his one big meal a day,
>>and if you try to feed him at any other point in time he'll ignore it.
>
>
> Neat. I've never seen or heard of this. Discus can be a bit anal about
> their feeding routines, but a tilapia? Do some water tests, specifically
> NH3/4, NO2 and NO3 and post your results. Many fish are fine with single
> large meals (ie: channel cats), while others need to feed more
> continuously (ie: Kissing gouramis, small tetras etc). I'm not sure
> where the tilapia would fit. As an fast growing omnivore, it's probably
> not harming him to eat this way.

I have to pick up some more testing supplies, as I currently have no
nitrate tests left. I normally check parameters in all tanks once a
week, and Marty's tank is consistently 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrates, and
usually about 15 Nitrates (normally the day before a cleaning, but it's
been about a month since I've tested them). Ph is 7.0. I have not
checked the hardness in some time, but am taking an "If it ain't
broke..." mentality towards that. With 120g between 4 tanks, hardness
has never been an issue.

> I recommend that you gravel vac until your reach your target water volume
> change (ie:20%). The following time (1 or 2 weeks), start from where you
> left off. Small tanks are typically done that way. Move a decoration on
> the tank to indicate what side you are doing next ;~)

The only problem with moving decorations is that Marty moves them around
right after that himself! :)


> Question 6 comes after your promised last question?? ;~) ok, bonus
> answer 6: the trick to gravel vacuuming smaller tanks is in being able to
> have a finer control over the flow rate, using a resticting valve, or
> draining into a pail which is up off the floor, on a chair or something.
> If that does not work well enough for you, use a smaller diameter pipe in
> the gravel.

I'll take a look and see what I can find for restrictors. Thanks.

[IDzine01]

Polarhound > wrote in message >...
> Several questions for all of you today. Any advice is appreciated.
>
> At a small wedding I attended last week, we were given a betta along
> with all the basic supplies as the table gift. First time I have seen
> someone do this, but in his case it is appropriate as the groom is a big
> fish fanatic (over 1000gal in tanks, with his family including the likes
> of a lungfish, stonefish, buttikoferi, waterdog, oscars, lionfish,
> electric eels, rays, and an alligator named Fluffy) and works at an LFS
> to boot.
>
> The fish themselves were given in vases along with gravel, water
> conditioner, and food, so the basics are taken care of. While he has
> been in the vase, he gets a 100% water change and gravel rinse every 3 days.
>
> I've decided to move the betta to a 5gal tank, (possibly an Eclipse Hex
> 5,) and give him a few mates, most likely 5-6 neon tetras.
>
> Question 1: Is a half dozen neons too many for this tank, based on 1"/gal?

I would first focus on getting your Betta up to a happy and healthy
state first. Depending on his personality he may attack the neons.
You'll need places for them to hide if he is aggressive. And be
prepared to move them out if you betta is of a more aggressive nature
as well.

> Since I brought the betta home, it has not eaten at all. I have tried
> Splendid Betta pellets (that came with the betta), Tetra freeze dried
> blood worms, (specifically marked as being good for bettas,)

Dry and freeze-dried food/pellets are bad for a bettas digestion and
often cause bloating or swim bladder disorders. Your betta will love
you forever if you feed him frozen blood-worms (not to be confused as
Freeze-dried) or blood-worms in gel. Frozen daphnia is also a
nutritious favorite. Frozen brine shrimp or brine shrimp in gel are
also yummy to your betta but don't contain all the nutrients they
need. They make a nice treat though. Pea is fine once in a while as
well. If he's not eating he may be constipated. (it sounds like you're
way overfeeding him) you can try a little pea (no skin though) and
when you see a greenish poo, you'll no he's no longer constipated.
(I'll get more into feeding in you later question)

>a piece of
> frozen blood worm, a piece of Sera Vipan staple flake food, and 1/4
> cooked pea. He won't eat any of it. As well, even though I fish the
> food out of the bowl after 15-20min, the gravel rinsings show copious
> amounts of waste.

Are you checking your water parameters for ammonia? Poor water quality
is the number one reason for sick bettas. There should be zero ammonia
in the water. If you're doing 100% water changes, you should test the
water every day for ammonia. If on day 5 (for example) your water
shows signs of slight ammonia, then you know you have to change his
water every 4 days so he is never exposed to any ammonia. It sounds
like you've had other tanks before and you're aware of water cycling.
I apologize if I'm telling you information you already know.

> He does move around the bowl, responds to me when I am nearby (but only
> when looking from directly above), and has been blowing some bubbles.

That's a bubble nest. Male bettas blow bubble nests as a housing for
the eggs. Some blow nest all the time and some hardly ever do. It's a
good sign though. Usually, it's a sign of a healthy betta.
Congratulations!

> Fins are not clamped during movement, and no disease indicators (other
> then a tiny gray spot that has since shown up at the base of his dorsal
> fin,) and becomes more active if I move him next to one of my other tanks.
>
> Question 2: I know bettas can go a month without starving. Should I
> just not feed him for about a week and see if he changes moods? I
> realize that the double move (LFS to wedding to home) was likely very
> stressful.

YIKES! This is NOT TRUE!!! A betta can starve to death in about 2
weeks. That doesn't mean you should go a full week without feeding
him. If he refuses to eat for a week, don't totally panic, but I would
never starve an animal for that long. If he's constipated, give him a
day or two. You're right, moving to a new tank IS stressful, but he'll
figure it out. The best thing you can do is give him a good home with
clean water that meets the proper parameters. (i.e. ammonia, pH, kH,
78* etc)

> Now, on to the new tank. I have several tanks of which I can pull
> cultured gravel from. Well, all except Marty's (my 2.5" buttikoferi)
> tank.. He's liable to have it spread all over the tank within an hour!
> :) However, none of the colors match what I want to use in his new home.
>
> Question 3: If I were to say, put some of the new gravel in a cup
> inside one of my current tanks, how long would it reasonably take to
> have enough bacteria attach itself to be able to jump-start the new
> tank? As an alternative, would it be easier to temporarily install a
> corner filter filled with cultured gravel?

This likely won't really work. While, yes the gravel does hold some
helpful bacteria, most of it is in the filter media. The best bet is
to cycle the tank with BioSpira (sold refrigerated in many LFS stores)
There ARE other brands, but I've been told time and time again to stay
away from them. BioSpira is the only one I've used and the only one I
trust. That's introduce the bacteria directly in the tank, will not
produce harmful ammonia and nitrite spikes and you'll be fully cycled
in 24-72 hours. The best thing is you can never overdose with
BioSpira. (Geeze, listen to me, I sound like a commercial)

> Question 4: The only experience I have with a biowheel is in my 75g
> tank which had the wheels from day one. Would soaking the new wheel in
> one of my established tanks do more than what I asked in question 3?

I've never used a biowheel, so I won't comment. Better to say I Don't
Know then to guess, right? ;-)

> Now that I mentioned Marty, it brings me to my next question,
> specifically feeding.
>
> If I were to dump a whole container of food into his tank (10g until he
> grows a bit more) he would probably eat it in 20 minutes. Voracious is
> an understatement with him. I feed him once per day, starting with
> Tetra mini pellets, then a few flakes, then some freeze dried blood
> worms. I know that you should never feed more than they can eat in a
> few minutes, but does this include when he's eating like a starved
> lunatic? I put in the food in small amounts, of which he always eats in
> about 10 seconds flat. Several small pinches (5-6 at a time) of the
> pellets, a couple of flakes, then a few blood-worms at a time. Although
> sometimes he slows down during the blood-worms, he usually is clamoring
> for more when I end the feeding.

RULE ONE!!!! Bettas LIE!.. You absolutely CAN NOT feed a betta until
he stops eating. The simple fact is, he'll eat himself to death. A
bettas stomach is only as big as his eyeball and you should never feed
him more then that. Which means, if you choose to feed him pellet food
(which I tried to talk you out of earlier) you should first soak it in
a cup for about 10-15 minutes so that it expands to it's full size.
Then you'll see just how big they really get in a bettas stomach. Then
at full size you can feed him 2-3 pellets a day. I'll tell you what I
feed my bettas, it might be helpful.

Day ONE: 2-3 blood-worms in gel
Day TWO: 2-3 blood-worms in gel
Day THREE: 2-3 blood-worms in gel
Day FOUR: 2-3 blood-worms in gel
Day FIVE: 2-3 tiny Brine Shrimp in gel
Day SIX: 1/4 pea with no skin
Day SEVEN: Fasting Day

> Question 5: In a case like this, how much is too much?
Anything more then an eyeball size amount is too much. The
consequences of overfeeding could range from constipation to swim
bladder disease and even death... Not to mention it'll raise the
ammonia levels in your tank so fast that it'll be a pain to keep up
with water changes.

> Marty is truly a creature of habit. He expects his one big meal a day,
> and if you try to feed him at any other point in time he'll ignore it.

Marty is your Betta? Hey Marty.

> (Last question now, I promise!)
>
> When I am cleaning the smaller tanks, it is hard for me to do a proper
> cleaning without removing too much water. Specifically, cleaning the
> gravel in the 10G is a royal pain. Normally I only get half the gravel
> done before I hit the water limit. This is with a manual siphon. Using
> a Python is not an option, as I can't get suction running the hose down
> a flight of stairs, and the sink on the same level doesn't allow me to
> get a good seal to get any suction.

Can you try a bucket? I use a 5 gal painters bucket from home depot
and syphoning works just fine. I have two 10 gal and a 5.5 gal. You
could always try to use less gravel. You don't really need a lot.
(Remember, most of your bacteria is in the filter media) If you happen
to find a great way to clean these small tank, please do share. ;-)

> Question 6: Any recommendations on better ways to clean the gravel? I
> ask because this problem may be magnified with the 5g tank coming later
> today. Should I look into a lower powered battery operated siphon?
> Should I rotate scooping portions of the gravel out and rinsing it? The
> 10g has a little under 1" of gravel at present, with some areas deeper
> than others, thanks to Marty's hole digging and plant rearranging antics.

Use little or no gravel.

> Thanks in advance for your advice.

I'm part of this really great Betta message board (yup all bettas) The
moderators there are brilliant and have save kabillions of betta
lives, if you want here's the link.
http://pub36.ezboard.com/faquariumbbsfrm3

Best of luck to you and Marty!
~Christie

[Polarhound]

IDzine01 wrote:
> Polarhound > wrote in message >...

>>Marty is truly a creature of habit. He expects his one big meal a day,
>>and if you try to feed him at any other point in time he'll ignore it.
>
>
> Marty is your Betta? Hey Marty.

No, Marty is a buttikoferi. I stopped talking about the betta a couple
questions earlier.

[IDzine01]

Polarhound > wrote in message >...
> IDzine01 wrote:
> > Polarhound > wrote in message >...
>
> >>Marty is truly a creature of habit. He expects his one big meal a day,
> >>and if you try to feed him at any other point in time he'll ignore it.
> >
> >
> > Marty is your Betta? Hey Marty.
>
> No, Marty is a buttikoferi. I stopped talking about the betta a couple
> questions earlier.

Oh.. woops, I missed the switch. Well, regardless, I hope I helped a little.

[JadeEyes]

> Polarhound wrote:

> > IDzine01 wrote:
> > > Marty is your Betta? Hey Marty.

> > No, Marty is a buttikoferi. I stopped talking about the betta a couple
> > questions earlier.

> Oh.. woops, I missed the switch. Well, regardless, I hope I helped a
little.

Polar's new betta jumped the tank the same day he posted and is no more. But
I too had the betta mixed up w/ Marty and was referring to him thusly.
Sorry, Polar!

I know I appreciated your comments, IDzine. We have 2 new betta in the house
and we've never had fish before, so I've been trying to learn as much as I
can about them so we can do right by them. I found your advice quite helpful
and really appreciated the link you provided to Aquamaniacs. I took a look
at the board and will probably be posting there soon w/ questions.

I love finding so many sources. It really helps to get whatever support you
need when you're starting out w/ something new (especially something that
could up and die on you if you screw up). So thanks.

Jade

drop a yahoo to chat

[Polarhound]

JadeEyes wrote:

> I love finding so many sources. It really helps to get whatever support you
> need when you're starting out w/ something new (especially something that
> could up and die on you if you screw up). So thanks.

It has to be something with this tank.

As you know, I picked up a juvenile maneguense to live for a couple of
months until everybody graduated to a bigger tank.

I come home tonight to find:

1. The heater is dead.
2. The water is at 74F (normally it is around 80F)
3. The managuense apparently followed the betta's lead. He's nowhere
to be found. I may have to start checking Sparky's hiding spots for
fishing poles.

[IDzine01]

> Polar's new betta jumped the tank the same day he posted and is no more. But
> I too had the betta mixed up w/ Marty and was referring to him thusly.
> Sorry, Polar!

Oh. That's aweful. I lost my Frost to a jump just a couple of months
ago. I knew better too. I had a tiny opening in the back where the
filter didn't quite block and I found him on the floor the next
morning. They can squeeze through openings smaller then their bodies.
(Don't ask me how)

> I know I appreciated your comments, IDzine. We have 2 new betta in the house
> and we've never had fish before, so I've been trying to learn as much as I
> can about them so we can do right by them. I found your advice quite helpful
> and really appreciated the link you provided to Aquamaniacs. I took a look
> at the board and will probably be posting there soon w/ questions.

That's wonderful. I love hearing that people care enough for their
fish to search out information. The only problem is there is SO much
bad info out there. I think you'll be pleased with Aquamaniacs, they
really promote good health and proper treatment. (Not to mention they
saved my Bettas lives on several occasions)

>It really helps to get whatever support you
> need when you're starting out w/ something new (especially something that
> could up and die on you if you screw up). So thanks.

That's the truth! They sure are a lot more work then first thought
they would be. (but who am i kidding, I love every minute of it)

~Christie

[JadeEyes]

"Polarhound" wrote:
> It has to be something with this tank.
>
> As you know, I picked up a juvenile maneguense to live for a couple of
> months until everybody graduated to a bigger tank.
>
> I come home tonight to find:
>
> 1. The heater is dead.
> 2. The water is at 74F (normally it is around 80F)
> 3. The managuense apparently followed the betta's lead. He's nowhere
> to be found. I may have to start checking Sparky's hiding spots for
> fishing poles.

Oh Polar!! How awful! That is just unbelievable...how much bad fish luck can
one person have? I'm very, very sorry. I'm sure this must you have more than
a little demoralized.

I imagine you covered up the opening too once the managuese was in. I don't
know if the tank looked undisturbed, but I have to say Sparky seems the most
logical suspect. I know cats can fish out aquatic pets from tanks w/ a paw.
I would think the tank lid would be akilter or knocked on the floor in such
a case, but perhaps there's some way the cat is pushing the lid up enough to
get a paw in and then the lid slips back in place when the cat pulls away
with the fish in tow. Sounds wild, I know, but this is too much for
coincidence.

I wonder if the dead heater is a clue that points to the tank being
disturbed.

So sorry for you, Polar.

Jade

drop a yahoo to chat

[JadeEyes]

"IDzine01" wrote:

Jade wrote:
> > Polar's new betta jumped the tank the same day he posted and is no more.
But
> > I too had the betta mixed up w/ Marty and was referring to him thusly.

> Oh. That's awful. I lost my Frost to a jump just a couple of months
> ago. I knew better too. I had a tiny opening in the back where the
> filter didn't quite block and I found him on the floor the next
> morning. They can squeeze through openings smaller then their bodies.
> (Don't ask me how)

I read several posts on different message boards about fish jumping the
tank, especially betta, but also various guppies. After reading Polar's post
about his loss of betta, I immediately checked out the new tank to find
there *was* an opening in the back to fit around the filter. It was plenty
big for a betta to get through, if one so chose to make a breakout attempt.
Immediately, I got some fabric and taped it carefully over the open space so
as to block it as an exit path.

> > I know I appreciated your comments, IDzine. We have 2 new betta in the
house
> > and we've never had fish before, so I've been trying to learn as much as
I
> > can about them so we can do right by them. I found your advice quite
helpful
> > and really appreciated the link you provided to Aquamaniacs. I took a
look
> > at the board and will probably be posting there soon w/ questions.

> That's wonderful. I love hearing that people care enough for their
> fish to search out information.

Thanks for the compliment, Christine. It would be easy enough to convince
myself it would be ok to keep the fish the way they came...in a 1/2 gallon
plastic tank w/ divider and no filter for the 2 to share, cleaning it once
or twice a month. I could tell myself they're only fish...what difference
does it make what kind of life they have and what evidence is there a fish
cares about anything or has the capacity to experience discontent? But after
learning more, I just couldn't do that. Not in good conscience.

>The only problem is there is SO much
> bad info out there.

No kidding. There's SO much info out there, period. And a lot of it is
conflicting. It's hard to believe both things can be true, so that suggests
some of it is inaccurate. But how to know which can be trusted and which
should be discounted? That's the trick.

> I think you'll be pleased with Aquamaniacs, they
> really promote good health and proper treatment. (Not to mention they
> saved my Bettas lives on several occasions)

That's really good to hear. Trouble is, seems like everyone on a particular
forum believes that forum is the last word on the subject. Makes it tough.
About the best one can do, it seems, is to seek out enough different sources
to see if one can come up with a consensus on any given question or care
issue.

> >It really helps to get whatever support you
> > need when you're starting out w/ something new (especially something
that
> > could up and die on you if you screw up). So thanks.

> That's the truth! They sure are a lot more work then first thought
> they would be. (but who am i kidding, I love every minute of it)

It is turning out to be more work than I anticipated or really desired. And
all of this was thrust on me when my sister presented 2 betta to my son for
his birthday. But I figure now that they're here, I just have to make the
best of it.

They are kind of fun to watch. Yesterday, the orange-gold betta (Angin-san)
did something pretty cute. The two have really been going at it lately at
the dividing screen between them. They were in head-to-head combat, jumping
and flaring at each other on their respective sides of the screen, for a
couple of minutes. The dark blue one (Toranaga) went in the other direction
for a few seconds. Angin-san slipped in behind a clump of fern near the
screen and waited. When Toranaga came back to the screen, Angin-san leapt
out of the "bush" in which he was hiding very suddenly and lunged at
Toranaga. Clearly, he was going for the element of surprise. "Trying to get
the drop on ol' Toranago there, huh Angin-san?" I said to him. LOL! What
does it tell you when you find yourself talking to a fish? Still, it was
funny to see.

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement, Christine. Maybe I'll see you around
the Aquamaniacs forum. Take care,

Jade

drop a yahoo to chat

[NetMax]

"JadeEyes" > wrote in message
news:N3p%b.24973$AL.463830@attbi_s03...
>
> "IDzine01" wrote:
>
> Jade wrote:
<snip>
> >The only problem is there is SO much
> > bad info out there.
>
> No kidding. There's SO much info out there, period. And a lot of it is
> conflicting. It's hard to believe both things can be true, so that
suggests
> some of it is inaccurate. But how to know which can be trusted and
which
> should be discounted? That's the trick.
<snip>

Results are often application and sequence sensitive, for example: I
know/heard/read that (pick a plant) does great in aquariums, or (pick a
fish) spawns easily - [depends on your particular water conditions]. I
know/heard/read that you can mix (pick incompatable fish) in the same
aquarium - [depends on who went in first and their age/size].

Hobbyists are enthusiastic about the hobby and sometimes too quick to
share what they think they have found to be news to tell others. Whether
it's a great product which cleared their algae bloom (which really did
nothing, and the bloom cleared by itself at the same time), to products
which are no good (defects escape from every manufacturer, but shouldn't
reflect their entire product line).

How do you know which can be trusted and which can be discounted? That
IS the trick ;~)

FWIW, the busier newsgroups do present a wide audience, so you can get a
general feel for the circumstances where things work or don't work, but
as always - ymmv (your mileage may vary ;~).

cheers
NetMax

> Jade