terrified--and 1 missing--fish!!!!!

[Jason in Oakland]

What on earth happened?

I cycled my 12g Neon Cube tank, and yesterday introduced 5 small
golden barbs and 3 otocincli. The otos quickly went to task on the
brown algae that had been growing in my tank; slowly and patiently
vacuuming the plant fronts and rocks. The barbs were a bit timid and
hid under some plants, coming out in frenetic force when I fed them.

This morning, just about 13 hours later:

One barb is completely missing.

I have NO idea where on earth it could have gone. The Neon Cube is
completely closed, but I checked around it as well and found nothing.

The other four barbs are *terrified* looking (bunched up together VERY
close, looking like they're panting from fear), still under the fronds
but not coming out for food. One came out for about 5 seconds, madly
thrashing around against the glass, and then went back to his 3 other
buddies.

The otos are acting strange too--they're against the rocks on the
bottom.

None of them are eating. The barbs have plenty of Spectrum food lying
around; the otos are ignoring what's rest of the algae (although
there's very little).

I checked ammonia this morning and found nothing wrong. pH is still 7.

What is going on?!?!

[coelacanth]

Jason in Oakland wrote:
> What on earth happened?
>
> I cycled my 12g Neon Cube tank, and yesterday introduced 5
> small golden barbs and 3 otocincli. The otos quickly went to
> task on the brown algae that had been growing in my tank;
> slowly and patiently vacuuming the plant fronts and rocks. The
> barbs were a bit timid and hid under some plants, coming out
> in frenetic force when I fed them.
>
> This morning, just about 13 hours later:
>
> One barb is completely missing.
>
> I have NO idea where on earth it could have gone. The Neon
> Cube is completely closed, but I checked around it as well and
> found nothing.
>
> The other four barbs are *terrified* looking (bunched up
> together VERY close, looking like they're panting from fear),
> still under the fronds but not coming out for food. One came
> out for about 5 seconds, madly thrashing around against the
> glass, and then went back to his 3 other buddies.
>
> The otos are acting strange too--they're against the rocks on
> the bottom.
>
> None of them are eating. The barbs have plenty of Spectrum
> food lying around; the otos are ignoring what's rest of the
> algae (although there's very little).
>
> I checked ammonia this morning and found nothing wrong. pH is
> still 7.
>
> What is going on?!?!

There may be no problem at all--it may just be settling in
jitters. What are your nitrite & nitrate levels? Is the water
at a reasonable temperature (70-78 F)? The other barb has
probably died and it's corpse is hidden on the back of your
filter intake or bedind a plant.

-coelacanth

[Sue]

> None of them are eating. The barbs have plenty of Spectrum food lying
> around; the otos are ignoring what's rest of the algae (although
> there's very little).
>
> I checked ammonia this morning and found nothing wrong. pH is still 7.
>
> What is going on?!?!

Check your nitrite & nitrates.

How did you cycle this tank?
Adding 8 fish has probably caused a mini spike and uneaten food is adding to
the problem.

Do a 20% water change right away and make sure the filter is flowing at full
capacity.
Sue

[Jason in Oakland]

thank you everyone for your responses.

FOUND the missing barb...I have a Nano Cube, and he was hiding in one
of the filtration compartments. I couldn't believe it, but he was
there.

I checked nitrites and nitrates, and they were normal. So was ammonia.
pH at 7. (good buffering with the fluorite I'm using as gravel!)

The problem? OXYGEN. (Yes, I'm a newbie--I admit it) The filtration,
while strong, did not break the surface tension of the water at all
(intake and output all underwater). At night, I turned off the light
and thus turned the only oxygen sources (the plants) into oxygen
sinks. The poor things were desperate and scared, and "panting"!

Probably explains the barb jumping the barrier into the filtration
compartment--he was trying to get more oxygen-rich water!!!

I took out enough water so that the filter output churned the surface
of the water, making the water in the tank turbulent and bubbly, but
within a few hours the barbs were back to normal, not panting, but
dancing around the tank together and playing, and the otos resumed
their vacuuming of the plants.
(I paperclipped a bit of Polyfiber mesh to the output (nonadjustable)
valve to make it considerably less turbulent, but still frothing the
surface)

The surface of the water is also nice and clear; before it was "filmy"
and had vague oily streaks on it.

Thank you again for your advice!

[Eric Schreiber]

Jason in Oakland wrote:

> The problem? OXYGEN. (Yes, I'm a newbie--I admit it) The filtration,
> while strong, did not break the surface tension of the water at all
> (intake and output all underwater).

I'm not sure that's really a newbie mistake - I'm no expert, but I
certainly wouldn't have thought of it right away as a possible problem.
I suspect many non-newbies would have been stumped by it too.

That's a good pitfall to know about for that tank. Aside from that, how
do you like the Nano Cube? From the pictures I've seen it looks like a
really sweet tank. If money/space/wife permitted, I'd like to have one
myself.

Just what I need... another tank to maintain.

> The surface of the water is also nice and clear; before it was "filmy"
> and had vague oily streaks on it.

I've had this problem on my betta tank lately. With a betta it's not
such a big deal of course, but I moved the Duetto filter so that the
return is above the water line, to help break the film up a bit.

Right now, the tank water is red as I treat with tetracycline. I
expected a color change, but I was surprised to discover my tank looks
like Kool-Aid.



--
www.ericschreiber.com

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: terrified--and 1 missing--fish!!!!!
>From: (Jason in Oakland)
>Date: 2/23/2004 10:47 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>What on earth happened?
>
>I cycled my 12g Neon Cube tank, and yesterday introduced 5 small
>golden barbs and 3 otocincli. The otos quickly went to task on the
>brown algae that had been growing in my tank; slowly and patiently
>vacuuming the plant fronts and rocks. The barbs were a bit timid and
>hid under some plants, coming out in frenetic force when I fed them.
>
>This morning, just about 13 hours later:
>
>One barb is completely missing.
>
>I have NO idea where on earth it could have gone. The Neon Cube is
>completely closed, but I checked around it as well and found nothing.
>
>The other four barbs are *terrified* looking (bunched up together VERY
>close, looking like they're panting from fear), still under the fronds
>but not coming out for food. One came out for about 5 seconds, madly
>thrashing around against the glass, and then went back to his 3 other
>buddies.
>
>The otos are acting strange too--they're against the rocks on the
>bottom.
>
>None of them are eating. The barbs have plenty of Spectrum food lying
>around; the otos are ignoring what's rest of the algae (although
>there's very little).
>
>I checked ammonia this morning and found nothing wrong. pH is still 7.
>
>What is going on?!?!
>

What did you cycle the tank with?

[Jason in Oakland]

I cycled my tank with store-bought ammonia. It took a week for it to
even get started--and I *did* try BioSpira, which did absolutely
nothing--but then I got a nitrite peak, and subsequent ammonia and
nitrite levels of zero (and a nitrate level of about 35ppm--I did a
50% water change). I know that for a true cycle, I should have kept on
feeding it ammonia until it could handle ammonia spikes in
general--but that takes 4-6 weeks and frankly I was a bit impatient.
At any rate, I put my fish in right after the nitrite and ammonia
levels were brought down to zero, so I know that the nitrite-eating
and ammonia-eating bacteria are indeed there (might have some
mini-spikes now but I'm monitoring levels and am doing 5% water
changes a day as it is).

So today.....AGAIN, another fish jumped the barrier and fell into one
of the filter compartments in the back. Again I fished this one out
with a wooden spoon (felt like giving him a spanking with it
afterwards!). Not sure why he/she did that... I had the bubbles going,
and even the light going, all night (I know, I know--they need some
darkness as do the plants, but I was out of my house and didn't want
to accidentally oxygen-starve them again)...the only thing I can think
of is that they (the barbs) really enjoyed "playing" in the stream of
bubbly water coming out of the filter outlet; they would wriggle and
"dance" around, facing the stream of bubbles. Maybe I should get one
of those oxygenator/bubbler machines so they can "dance" in that and
not be tempted to jump the barrier again? It's a bit of a bother, but
I'm more worried when I'm gone for 8 days in a couple of weeks that
s/he'll jump the barrier and be without food for so long.

Jason

[Jason in Oakland]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message >...

> That's a good pitfall to know about for that tank. Aside from that, how
> do you like the Nano Cube? From the pictures I've seen it looks like a
> really sweet tank. If money/space/wife permitted, I'd like to have one
> myself.

It's pretty, works well so far (granted, I've only had it for 2
weeks), and is a nice self-contained unit, but frankly, I have nothing
to compare it to, since this is my first tank!

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)
>Subject: Re: terrified--and 1 missing--fish!!!!!
>From: (Jason in Oakland)
>Date: 2/24/2004 11:21 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>and I *did* try BioSpira, which did absolutely
>nothing-

That's odd.
Bio Spira works!
When you used it..did you use anything like AmQuel or AMMOLOCK1 or 2?

[Eric Schreiber]

TYNK 7 wrote:

>> I did try BioSpira, which did absolutely nothing

> That's odd.
> Bio Spira works!

No telling what kind of abuse, especially temperature extremes, his
Bio-Spira package endured before he used it. I have the impression it's
fairly delicate stuff, since it has to be kept refrigerated.

On an unrelated note, today I begin bringing my betta tank down from a
five day Tetracycline treatment. The water is bright red, and I've got
a pile of foam in the back compartment that any salt-water protien
skimmer would be proud of.

I can't yet tell if the treatement had any effect on the suspicious
spots I was seeing on my oldest betta, as I can't really see through
this awful color very well. Could be that he's just simply getting old,
and they aren't disease at all, but rather he's falling apart. He's
perkey as hell at feeding time, but otherwise he spends a lot of time
resting on the bottom.

In any case, I'm sure fish and keeper alike will be happy to have
clean, clear water again. Eight gallons net, changed two gallons at a
time, I wonder how many buckets I'll need before the water no longer
has any red coloration in it.

Work work work.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: terrified--and 1 missing--fish!!!!!
>From: "Eric Schreiber" ericat ericschreiber dot com
>Date: 2/25/2004 1:27 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>TYNK 7 wrote:
>
>>> I did try BioSpira, which did absolutely nothing
>
>> That's odd.
>> Bio Spira works!
>
>No telling what kind of abuse, especially temperature extremes, his
>Bio-Spira package endured before he used it. I have the impression it's
>fairly delicate stuff, since it has to be kept refrigerated.
>
>On an unrelated note, today I begin bringing my betta tank down from a
>five day Tetracycline treatment. The water is bright red, and I've got
>a pile of foam in the back compartment that any salt-water protien
>skimmer would be proud of.
>
>I can't yet tell if the treatement had any effect on the suspicious
>spots I was seeing on my oldest betta, as I can't really see through
>this awful color very well. Could be that he's just simply getting old,
>and they aren't disease at all, but rather he's falling apart. He's
>perkey as hell at feeding time, but otherwise he spends a lot of time
>resting on the bottom.
>
>In any case, I'm sure fish and keeper alike will be happy to have
>clean, clear water again. Eight gallons net, changed two gallons at a
>time, I wonder how many buckets I'll need before the water no longer
>has any red coloration in it.
>
>Work work work.
>

Eric,
He may just be old. Bettas that are aged typically just hang around until
feeding time, or toget a breath of air. = (
As for your red water, have you used carbon to remove the dye?

[Eric Schreiber]

TYNK 7 wrote:

> He may just be old. Bettas that are aged typically just hang around
> until feeding time, or to get a breath of air. = (

He's certainly old - I've had him for 16 months, and he was full grown
when I got him. Several times recently I've thought he was dead, as
he's laying flat on his side at the bottom. But as soon as I get near
the tank, he perks right up and begs for dinner.

Maybe, like me, he just has a strong appreciation for naps.

> As for your red water, have you used carbon to remove the dye?

Doing massive water changes first. The tank is net 8 gallons or so, and
I've done three changes today (so far) of 2 gallons each. I figure
another couple of changes tonight or tomorrow should take care of most
of the color, then I'll put new charcoal in the Duetto to polish off
the rest.

I'm going to put a wee bit of Bio-Spira in tomorrow as well, to help
the tank recover from whatever damage that level of medication might
have done.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: terrified--and 1 missing--fish!!!!!
>From: "Eric Schreiber" ericat ericschreiber dot com
>Date: 2/25/2004 8:38 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>TYNK 7 wrote:
>
>> He may just be old. Bettas that are aged typically just hang around
>> until feeding time, or to get a breath of air. = (
>
>He's certainly old - I've had him for 16 months, and he was full grown
>when I got him. Several times recently I've thought he was dead, as
>he's laying flat on his side at the bottom. But as soon as I get near
>the tank, he perks right up and begs for dinner.
>
>Maybe, like me, he just has a strong appreciation for naps.
>
>> As for your red water, have you used carbon to remove the dye?
>
>Doing massive water changes first. The tank is net 8 gallons or so, and
>I've done three changes today (so far) of 2 gallons each. I figure
>another couple of changes tonight or tomorrow should take care of most
>of the color, then I'll put new charcoal in the Duetto to polish off
>the rest.
>
>I'm going to put a wee bit of Bio-Spira in tomorrow as well, to help
>the tank recover from whatever damage that level of medication might
>have done.
>

I'd wait to add the Bio Spira for 24 hours after adding the carbon.

[Eric Schreiber]

TYNK 7 wrote:

> I'd wait to add the Bio Spira for 24 hours after adding the carbon.

You're the expert. I'll wait. :)


--
www.ericschreiber.com

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: terrified--and 1 missing--fish!!!!!
>From: "Eric Schreiber" ericat ericschreiber dot com
>Date: 2/26/2004 1:48 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>TYNK 7 wrote:
>
>> I'd wait to add the Bio Spira for 24 hours after adding the carbon.
>
>You're the expert. I'll wait. :)

Hehe, Eric. I never claim to be an "expert".
I would *think* the left over medication in the tank may harm thelive bacteria.
That's the reason why I suggested running fresh carbon for 34 hours before
adding more Bio Spira.
The stuff's expensive, so better to be safe than waste it. = )

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)
>Subject: Re: terrified--and 1 missing--fish!!!!!
>From: (TYNK 7)
>Date: 2/26/2004 9:19 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>That's the reason why I suggested running fresh carbon for 34 hours before

24 hours!! I hit the wrong key. = )

[Eric Schreiber]

TYNK 7 wrote:

> Hehe, Eric. I never claim to be an "expert".

Well, of course not. That would ruin it. It's like being cool. If you
declare yourself cool, odds are you're nothing but. Someone else has to
declare you cool.

Likewise, you can't declare youself an expert - that would be hubris.
Therefore, you need someone as cool as me to declare you an expert.
Where bettas and Bio-Spira are concerned, you're my expert.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: terrified--and 1 missing--fish!!!!!
>From: "Eric Schreiber" ericat ericschreiber dot com
>Date: 2/26/2004 12:46 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>TYNK 7 wrote:
>
>> Hehe, Eric. I never claim to be an "expert".
>
>Well, of course not. That would ruin it. It's like being cool. If you
>declare yourself cool, odds are you're nothing but. Someone else has to
>declare you cool.
>
>Likewise, you can't declare youself an expert - that would be hubris.
>Therefore, you need someone as cool as me to declare you an expert.
>Where bettas and Bio-Spira are concerned, you're my expert.

::blushing::
Thanks. = )

[Eric Schreiber]

TYNK 7 wrote:

> ::blushing::
> Thanks. = )

It doesn't mean we're engaged or anything :)

<obscure movie quote test>

--
www.ericschreiber.com