More Advice Requested about my Blackmoors

[cindys]

I'm sure you remember me from the Blackmoor resting by the heater thread...

The remaining Blackmoor and the new Blackmoor had been doing fine. Now,
about a week or week and a half ago, I noticed that the new one was
sometimes resting on the bottom of the tank. After a few days of that (with
seemingly normal swimming around otherwise), the other Blackmoor started
joining the new one on the bottom of the tank, resting next to him. Now, in
the last few days, the new Blackmoor has started spending an awful lot of
time at the surface of the water (and still resting on the bottom of the
tank at other times). Other times, he seems to be swimming around normally,
looks healthy (no rotting fins or tails, not acting sluggish, and doesn't
seem to be having difficulty staying horizontal in the water, like the one
who died did). The other Blackmoor generally does not swim at the surface.

I tested the water and everything is fine - nitrates, nitrites, pH, water
hardness/softness, etc. I have been doing partial water changes (25%
weekly), treating the water to remove the chlorine, adding the appropriate
amount of salt, etc. I think I'm doing everything right...The tank is a
10-gallon tank, and the two fish are small.

Any thoughts? Am I heading toward yet another fish funeral?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Koi-Lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
> Any thoughts? Am I heading toward yet another fish funeral?
> Thanks in advance for any advice.
> Best regards,
=================
Cindy, some people aren't going to agree with me on this but if they were
mine I'd look towards a parasite infestation. Gill mites (flukes) are
common in GF from pet stores. Clout will take care of them and probably
most any other parasites they may have. When mine were doing as you
described that's what they had.

If you're sure it's not gillflukes then you can use Aquari-Sol or one of the
other parasite killers such as Quick-Cure. For a real treat type in Google:
goldfish-parasites. You wont believe how many parasites they can suffer
from.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
http://tinyurl.com/d8e4
Reading Headers:
http://tinyurl.com/amm9s
Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria groups.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[cindys]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Any thoughts? Am I heading toward yet another fish funeral?
> > Thanks in advance for any advice.
> > Best regards,
> =================
> Cindy, some people aren't going to agree with me on this but if they were
> mine I'd look towards a parasite infestation. Gill mites (flukes) are
> common in GF from pet stores. Clout will take care of them and probably
> most any other parasites they may have. When mine were doing as you
> described that's what they had.
>
> If you're sure it's not gillflukes then you can use Aquari-Sol or one of
the
> other parasite killers such as Quick-Cure. For a real treat type in
Google:
> goldfish-parasites. You wont believe how many parasites they can suffer
> from.
------------
I did the search as you suggested. Apparently, with gill mites, the fish
would have red, bloody-looking fins? If so, mine don't have that. But a few
weeks ago, I saw what looked like a long transparent thread hanging off the
new fish. Then, as fast as I saw it, it was gone. Now you see it, now you
don't. I haven't seen anything like that since on either fish, but now I'm
wondering if that was an anchor worm? This being the case, why would you
recommend Aquari-Sol or Quick-Cure rather than the Clout? Also, how
desperate is the situation? Do I need to run to Petco this instant or will
tomorrow be soon enough? (The series of events with the other deceased
Blackmoor are still fresh in my mind).

Why do you think other people would disagree with your advice on this?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Roy]

Yea, listen to CArol especially when she goes against those that know
and your sure to have a funeral for whatever is being treated.



On Sun, 5 Mar 2006 14:36:56 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:
>><>
>><>"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>><>> Any thoughts? Am I heading toward yet another fish funeral?
>><>> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>><>> Best regards,
>><>=================
>><>Cindy, some people aren't going to agree with me on this but if they were
>><>mine I'd look towards a parasite infestation. Gill mites (flukes) are
>><>common in GF from pet stores. Clout will take care of them and probably
>><>most any other parasites they may have. When mine were doing as you
>><>described that's what they had.
>><>
>><>If you're sure it's not gillflukes then you can use Aquari-Sol or one of the
>><>other parasite killers such as Quick-Cure. For a real treat type in Google:
>><>goldfish-parasites. You wont believe how many parasites they can suffer
>><>from.

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Koi-Lo]

"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "cindys" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Any thoughts? Am I heading toward yet another fish funeral?
>> > Thanks in advance for any advice.
>> > Best regards,
>> =================
>> Cindy, some people aren't going to agree with me on this but if they were
>> mine I'd look towards a parasite infestation. Gill mites (flukes) are
>> common in GF from pet stores. Clout will take care of them and probably
>> most any other parasites they may have. When mine were doing as you
>> described that's what they had.
>>
>> If you're sure it's not gillflukes then you can use Aquari-Sol or one of
> the
>> other parasite killers such as Quick-Cure. For a real treat type in
> Google:
>> goldfish-parasites. You wont believe how many parasites they can suffer
>> from.
> ---------------------------------------
> I did the search as you suggested. Apparently, with gill mites, the fish
> would have red, bloody-looking fins?

Mine didn't. They acted like you described your GF acting. A scrape of a
gillraker showed the flukes. I have a microscope and the Dr. Johnson book.
The flukes don't damage fins when they're in the gills.

If so, mine don't have that. But a few
> weeks ago, I saw what looked like a long transparent thread hanging off
> the
> new fish. Then, as fast as I saw it, it was gone. Now you see it, now you
> don't.

I thought it was coming from your fishes anal pore.

I haven't seen anything like that since on either fish, but now I'm
> wondering if that was an anchor worm?

Anchor worms hang on for awhile. They don't attach - then jump right off.

This being the case, why would you
> recommend Aquari-Sol or Quick-Cure rather than the Clout?

Clout will get most parasites but I read it is "harsher" than the others. I
don't know if that's true. I use all these products for parasites.

Also, how
> desperate is the situation? Do I need to run to Petco this instant or will
> tomorrow be soon enough? (The series of events with the other deceased
> Blackmoor are still fresh in my mind).

It's not that desperate but hard to diagnose over a computer.

> Why do you think other people would disagree with your advice on this?

Because everyone has their own beliefs and experiences with fish. Plus we
have a person trolling me from one fish NG to another. He will disagree
with almost anything I say. That's what they do. Also there is another
troll using my nym and posting idiotic information on these groups so be
careful and check headers before you do anything.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
http://tinyurl.com/d8e4
Reading Headers:
http://tinyurl.com/amm9s
Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria groups.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[cindys]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "cindys" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Any thoughts? Am I heading toward yet another fish funeral?
> >> > Thanks in advance for any advice.
> >> > Best regards,
> >> =================
> >> Cindy, some people aren't going to agree with me on this but if they
were
> >> mine I'd look towards a parasite infestation. Gill mites (flukes) are
> >> common in GF from pet stores. Clout will take care of them and
probably
> >> most any other parasites they may have. When mine were doing as you
> >> described that's what they had.
> >>
> >> If you're sure it's not gillflukes then you can use Aquari-Sol or one
of
> > the
> >> other parasite killers such as Quick-Cure. For a real treat type in
> > Google:
> >> goldfish-parasites. You wont believe how many parasites they can
suffer
> >> from.
> > ---------------------------------------
> > I did the search as you suggested. Apparently, with gill mites, the fish
> > would have red, bloody-looking fins?
>
> Mine didn't. They acted like you described your GF acting. A scrape of a
> gillraker showed the flukes. I have a microscope and the Dr. Johnson
book.
> The flukes don't damage fins when they're in the gills.
>
> If so, mine don't have that. But a few
> > weeks ago, I saw what looked like a long transparent thread hanging off
> > the
> > new fish. Then, as fast as I saw it, it was gone. Now you see it, now
you
> > don't.
>
> I thought it was coming from your fishes anal pore.
>
> I haven't seen anything like that since on either fish, but now I'm
> > wondering if that was an anchor worm?
>
> Anchor worms hang on for awhile. They don't attach - then jump right off.
>
> This being the case, why would you
> > recommend Aquari-Sol or Quick-Cure rather than the Clout?
>
> Clout will get most parasites but I read it is "harsher" than the others.
I
> don't know if that's true. I use all these products for parasites.
>
> Also, how
> > desperate is the situation? Do I need to run to Petco this instant or
will
> > tomorrow be soon enough? (The series of events with the other deceased
> > Blackmoor are still fresh in my mind).
>
> It's not that desperate but hard to diagnose over a computer.
>
> > Why do you think other people would disagree with your advice on this?
>
> Because everyone has their own beliefs and experiences with fish. Plus we
> have a person trolling me from one fish NG to another. He will disagree
> with almost anything I say. That's what they do. Also there is another
> troll using my nym and posting idiotic information on these groups so be
> careful and check headers before you do anything.
-----------
Okay. Thank you so much for your advice. I will keep you posted.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Koi-Lo]

In ,
a big fat koi eater named > bubbled:
> In reply to article >
=====================
PLEASE, PLEASE stop posting this disgusting trash over and over again. It
does nothing but feed and encourage the trolls. It doesn't help the
situation and I get blamed for everything!

PLEASE!!!!!!

Thank you.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

And how many times were you asked to stop cross posting and trashing
rec.ponds and yet you and your sock puppets and remailers continued to
trash it and trash it......so why the hell would anyone want to listen
to your requests Carol........Whats a matter bimbo.........do you
think more of other forums than what rec.ponds did of theirs, so why
should it be stopped. It will all come to an end the day you up and
vanish.......turst me on that.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2006 20:53:55 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:
>><>In ,
>><> a big fat koi eater named > bubbled:
>><>> In reply to article >
>><>=====================
>><>PLEASE, PLEASE stop posting this disgusting trash over and over again. It
>><>does nothing but feed and encourage the trolls. It doesn't help the
>><>situation and I get blamed for everything!
>><>
>><>PLEASE!!!!!!
>><>
>><>Thank you.

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Koi-Lo]

Well you started it all if you recall........Now you don;t like it?
Too much heat for you so get the heck out of the kitchen then......

I think the crap you started is justs now getting warmed up, so be
forewarned, you have not seen anything yet.....and now you went and
drug all those other groups into your messed up diapers......shame on
you Carol..........yuour honor as you say be damned, and let the
forums go to hell due to your bull**** and accusations......Seems
funny you say its only usenet it does not matter, yet the same usenet
when folks go against you is perceived a s real and a threat to
you.....pretty darn choosey aren't you? Sort of like reading a bible
or any other book or document, you can elect to read part or all and
int can be interpreted different ways depending on where you start
reading it from.......your time is drawing near......every day you are
loosing more and more so called friends with your bull****....and
numerous posts and numshifting, sock puppets and remailers and
multiple news server accounts, all just to trash the various forums..

..

On Tue, 7 Mar 2006 20:53:55 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:
>><>In ,
>><> a big fat koi eater named > bubbled:
>><>> In reply to article >
>><>=====================
>><>PLEASE, PLEASE stop posting this disgusting trash over and over again. It
>><>does nothing but feed and encourage the trolls. It doesn't help the
>><>situation and I get blamed for everything!
>><>
>><>PLEASE!!!!!!
>><>
>><>Thank you.

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[cindys]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cindys" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "cindys" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Any thoughts? Am I heading toward yet another fish funeral?
> >> > Thanks in advance for any advice.
> >> > Best regards,
> >> =================
> >> Cindy, some people aren't going to agree with me on this but if they
were
> >> mine I'd look towards a parasite infestation. Gill mites (flukes) are
> >> common in GF from pet stores. Clout will take care of them and
probably
> >> most any other parasites they may have. When mine were doing as you
> >> described that's what they had.
> >>
> >> If you're sure it's not gillflukes then you can use Aquari-Sol or one
of
> > the
> >> other parasite killers such as Quick-Cure. For a real treat type in
> > Google:
> >> goldfish-parasites. You wont believe how many parasites they can
suffer
> >> from.
> > ---------------------------------------
> > I did the search as you suggested. Apparently, with gill mites, the fish
> > would have red, bloody-looking fins?
>
> Mine didn't. They acted like you described your GF acting. A scrape of a
> gillraker showed the flukes. I have a microscope and the Dr. Johnson
book.
> The flukes don't damage fins when they're in the gills.
>
> If so, mine don't have that. But a few
> > weeks ago, I saw what looked like a long transparent thread hanging off
> > the
> > new fish. Then, as fast as I saw it, it was gone. Now you see it, now
you
> > don't.
>
> I thought it was coming from your fishes anal pore.
>
> I haven't seen anything like that since on either fish, but now I'm
> > wondering if that was an anchor worm?
>
> Anchor worms hang on for awhile. They don't attach - then jump right off.
>
> This being the case, why would you
> > recommend Aquari-Sol or Quick-Cure rather than the Clout?
>
> Clout will get most parasites but I read it is "harsher" than the others.
I
> don't know if that's true. I use all these products for parasites.
---------------
I went to the Petco to get the Clout. The teenaged clerk told me they no
longer carried it. She suggested the Aquari-Sol because it was gentle and
safe. I said "Yes, but will it kill gill flukes?" She looked at the label
and assured me that the Aquari-Sol "kills lots of parasites." I said "Yes,
but it's rather useless if it can't kill the ones my fish have." She just
kept insisting to me that the Aquari-Sol would "kill lots of parasites."
Then, she started explaining to me that putting some salt in the aquarium
would be another option....i.e., totally clueless <sigh> To make a long
story short, since I wasn't really sure what my fish had (but I knew what
they didn't have), I opted for the Aquari-Sol (rather than the Maracide,
which would definitely kill flukes but has high toxicity). I figured if the
Aquari-Sol worked, great! and if it didn't work, I could go for the more
potent stuff later.

In the meantime, I found a website that sold a product called Prazipro? (it
was described as a low-toxicity product that would kill gill flukes). I was
going to order it, but the phone number given turned out to be a fax
machine. Then, I saw that one of the fish was hiding behind the heater (like
the one who died had done). I decided I didn't want to order anything over
the internet and then have to wait 3 to 5 days until it arrived. My husband
returned to Petco for the Maracide. Again, the same teenaged clerk was
trying to talk him out of it, this time suggesting that perhaps the fish had
Ich. My husband phoned me from his cell phone. I told him the fish didn't
have Ich and could he please just buy the Maracide, like I had asked him to.
(The clerk walked off in a huff).

We put the Maracide in the tank, and the fish are doing great! The
directions on the bottle say the tank needs to be treated a total of 3 times
(to kill the fluke eggs). I was a little nervous about putting this toxic
stuff in again. Turns out, my veterinarian has a special interest in exotic
animals and a decent amount of knowledge about fish. She advised me that I
needed to do the two remaining doses but maybe to wait a week rather than
two days.

Thank you so much for your help. I never would have considered the
possibility of flukes, not in a million years. I would not have purchased
the Maracide if you hadn't told me about the flukes, and I suspect that the
fish would have been dead in a week or two, based on the behavior I was
seeing. Do you agree that the tank should be treated two more times? If so,
do you agree that I should wait a week?
Thanks again.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <cindys> at
> was heard opining:

Koi-Lo
>> Clout will get most parasites but I read it is "harsher" than the
>> others. I don't know if that's true. I use all these products for
>> parasites.
> ---------------
> I went to the Petco to get the Clout. The teenaged clerk told me they
> no longer carried it. She suggested the Aquari-Sol because it was
> gentle and safe. I said "Yes, but will it kill gill flukes?"

It doesn't get gill flukes and remember, these clerks know little about fish
and their diseases.

She
> looked at the label and assured me that the Aquari-Sol "kills lots of
> parasites." I said "Yes, but it's rather useless if it can't kill the
> ones my fish have." She just kept insisting to me that the Aquari-Sol
> would "kill lots of parasites." Then, she started explaining to me
> that putting some salt in the aquarium would be another
> option....i.e., totally clueless <sigh>

Yep! That they are but I'm sure most mean well.

To make a long story short,
> since I wasn't really sure what my fish had (but I knew what they
> didn't have), I opted for the Aquari-Sol (rather than the Maracide,
> which would definitely kill flukes but has high toxicity). I figured
> if the Aquari-Sol worked, great! and if it didn't work, I could go
> for the more potent stuff later.

Give it a go! It is gentle as I've used it with young koi, goldfish and
baby platys with no problem. It doesn't seem to harm plants either.

> In the meantime, I found a website that sold a product called
> Prazipro? (it was described as a low-toxicity product that would kill
> gill flukes). I was going to order it, but the phone number given
> turned out to be a fax machine. Then, I saw that one of the fish was
> hiding behind the heater (like the one who died had done). I decided
> I didn't want to order anything over the internet and then have to
> wait 3 to 5 days until it arrived. My husband returned to Petco for
> the Maracide.
Again, the same teenaged clerk was trying to talk him
> out of it, this time suggesting that perhaps the fish had Ich. My
> husband phoned me from his cell phone. I told him the fish didn't
> have Ich and could he please just buy the Maracide, like I had asked
> him to. (The clerk walked off in a huff).

Typical! :-(

> We put the Maracide in the tank, and the fish are doing great! The
> directions on the bottle say the tank needs to be treated a total of
> 3 times (to kill the fluke eggs). I was a little nervous about
> putting this toxic stuff in again. Turns out, my veterinarian has a
> special interest in exotic animals and a decent amount of knowledge
> about fish. She advised me that I needed to do the two remaining
> doses but maybe to wait a week rather than two days.

Flukes are the pits. As far as I know they don't lay eggs. Please see this
website:
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/flukes.htm . Follow the directions that
came with the product.
You may have to treat them several times as these parasites are hard to
eradicate completely. You will soon see why so many of us keep Quarantine
tanks to protect our beloved pets. One diseased new fish can wipe out a
whole tank of once healthy fish. Flukes are a sneaky parasites as well. By
time time the gills are *obviously infested* it is often too late to save
them.

> Thank you so much for your help. I never would have considered the
> possibility of flukes, not in a million years. I would not have
> purchased the Maracide if you hadn't told me about the flukes, and I
> suspect that the fish would have been dead in a week or two, based on
> the behavior I was seeing.

Yes, they would have. I lost many beautiful fantails a few years back to
gill-flukes. It was with the personal help of Dr.Johnson at www.koivet.com
and the owner of www.goldfishconnection.com that the rest were saved. The
pet shop did replace every one of those fish when I brought them the slide
and a copy of some info' from Dr. Johnson. That didn't make up for the
emotional pain of watching them die despite everything I was doing for them
or the pain they must have suffered dying from these horrible flukes. They
immediately shut down their goldfish section and took care of the
problem.......

Do you agree that the tank should be
> treated two more times? If so, do you agree that I should wait a week?

NO! Follow the directions on the product. Flukes don't lay eggs so I would
not follow her advice.

This is from the site mentioned above:
The photo above show a gyrodactylid embryo virtually fully formed inside its
mother- however, the baby of that yet unborn fluke is already forming. With
this head start - three generations in one - the doubling time for
Gyrodactylus can be as little as 24-hours! It is much the same with
dactylogyrids, which, in warm water and ideal conditions can reproduce very
rapidly and quickly overwhelm any sick or stressed fish. (CREDIT TO FISH
DOC at http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/flukes.htm ).


--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

Yea, listen to CArol especially when she goes against those that know
and your sure to have a funeral for whatever is being treated.



On Sun, 5 Mar 2006 14:36:56 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:
>><>
>><>"cindys" > wrote in message
...
>><>> Any thoughts? Am I heading toward yet another fish funeral?
>><>> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>><>> Best regards,
>><>=================
>><>Cindy, some people aren't going to agree with me on this but if they were
>><>mine I'd look towards a parasite infestation. Gill mites (flukes) are
>><>common in GF from pet stores. Clout will take care of them and probably
>><>most any other parasites they may have. When mine were doing as you
>><>described that's what they had.
>><>
>><>If you're sure it's not gillflukes then you can use Aquari-Sol or one of the
>><>other parasite killers such as Quick-Cure. For a real treat type in Google:
>><>goldfish-parasites. You wont believe how many parasites they can suffer
>><>from.

Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1982.
Aquariums since 1956.
Some assholes Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's* on rec.ponds.
But, I am the one and only original Koi-Lo.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>