Gravel, ornaments

[vYv]

Greetings Goldfish Gurus,

I've kept goldfish now for about 15 years, and always used regular
aquarium gravel. Now, however, I am getting frustrated with the fact that
cleaning it out is always such a hassel. Just wondering what others use
and any experiences with it. I was thinking in the lines of marbles (not
the metal type), river rock, or even nothing. Keep in mind it is an
ornamental tank.

Also, I have some nice driftwood I'd like to add. I notice that stores
sell similar pieces of wood attached to bases and wonder if there is some
sort of treatment required before adding it to a tank.

Cheers
vYv

[Snooze]

"vYv" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> Greetings Goldfish Gurus,
>
> I've kept goldfish now for about 15 years, and always used regular
> aquarium gravel. Now, however, I am getting frustrated with the fact that
> cleaning it out is always such a hassel. Just wondering what others use
> and any experiences with it. I was thinking in the lines of marbles (not
> the metal type), river rock, or even nothing. Keep in mind it is an
> ornamental tank.
>
> Also, I have some nice driftwood I'd like to add. I notice that stores
> sell similar pieces of wood attached to bases and wonder if there is some
> sort of treatment required before adding it to a tank.


Tempting to keep a plain tank bottom, but not a good idea. In many
ornamental tanks, the gravel acts as a filter and growing medium for many of
the bacteria that consume fish waste. Also randomly picking up drift wood
from a river is not a good idea., driftwood in river or ocean soak up all
kinds of pollution.

Consider using a siphon to clean the gravel. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone,
clean the tank bottom and perform a water change at the same time.

-S

[[email protected]]

I have had bare bottom tanks. easiest thing in the world to take care of.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/care.htm look at gravel, tells why nots.
Ingrid

vYv > wrote:

>
>Greetings Goldfish Gurus,
>
>I've kept goldfish now for about 15 years, and always used regular
>aquarium gravel. Now, however, I am getting frustrated with the fact that
>cleaning it out is always such a hassel. Just wondering what others use
>and any experiences with it. I was thinking in the lines of marbles (not
>the metal type), river rock, or even nothing. Keep in mind it is an
>ornamental tank.
>
>Also, I have some nice driftwood I'd like to add. I notice that stores
>sell similar pieces of wood attached to bases and wonder if there is some
>sort of treatment required before adding it to a tank.
>
>Cheers
>vYv



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AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

[Koi-Lo]

"vYv" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> Greetings Goldfish Gurus,
>
> I've kept goldfish now for about 15 years, and always used regular
> aquarium gravel. Now, however, I am getting frustrated with the fact that
> cleaning it out is always such a hassel. Just wondering what others use
> and any experiences with it. I was thinking in the lines of marbles (not
> the metal type), river rock, or even nothing. Keep in mind it is an
> ornamental tank.

It's better in my opinion to use gravel and use a gravel vacc when doing
water changes. You have to do partial water changes anyway. My goldfish
tanks are loaded with plants and I carefully go around them when I vac the
gravel. The gravel, and some stones or rocks looks natural, allows the
plants to anchor themselves, give the fish something to do picking over it
for tidbits of whatever, and holds a lot of beneficial bacteria - important
if you have power outages where you are. Other people prefer not to use
gravel and I respect that opinion as well, but there is nothing uglier (to
me) than a bare glass tank with a few fish and a plant or two in flower
pots. There's nothing decorative there. That reminds me of the old
caged-zoos where the animals had nothing to do in their bare cages but pace,
pace, pace until they went mad. But to each his/her own.

> Also, I have some nice driftwood I'd like to add. I notice that stores
> sell similar pieces of wood attached to bases and wonder if there is some
> sort of treatment required before adding it to a tank.

Driftwood can be problematic unless you collect it from the woods. Yes, you
can find pieces that look like what's at the lakes edges. If you know the
water source is not contaminated you can give it a shot. I BAKE all drift
wood before adding it to my tanks for decorative purposes and for the plecos
to gnaw on. I'm not exact here in time or temperature. I usually bake it
around 20 minutes at about 200F. That should kill anything alive in or on
it. When cool you can start the process of waterlogging it.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria groups.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[vYv]

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 22:50:48 +0000, dr-solo wrote:

> I have had bare bottom tanks. easiest thing in the world to take care of.
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/care.htm look at gravel, tells why nots.
> Ingrid


Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Cheers
vYv

[vYv]

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 21:04:33 +0000, Snooze wrote:


> Tempting to keep a plain tank bottom, but not a good idea. In many
> ornamental tanks, the gravel acts as a filter and growing medium for many of
> the bacteria that consume fish waste. Also randomly picking up drift wood
> from a river is not a good idea., driftwood in river or ocean soak up all
> kinds of pollution.

Hadn't thought of that (the pollution point that is). Good point.

>
> Consider using a siphon to clean the gravel. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone,
> clean the tank bottom and perform a water change at the same time.

I do this once a week for a 50% water change and once every 3 or 4 months
for a complete change. I should mention that I have been using an
under-gravel filter system for about a year and a half now. (I also
change the charcoal filters once a week with the water) I like the system
but find that after a few months the gravel is so saturated with muck that
its efficiency drops severely and siphoning the gravel out becomes a
losing battle. Time for a full change. The goal, therefore, of using
something else on the bottom is to extend the time before this becomes
necessary. A change of filter system may also be required... not sure if
the under-gravel type is as effective with marbles or river rock for
instance.

BTW, my tank is 10 gallons and has 2 adult fish (6 and 3 years old).
Hoping to get a larger tank soon (thinking about different bottom cover in
advance).

Cheers
vYv

[vYv]

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 18:43:40 -0600, Koi-Lo wrote:

>
> "vYv" > wrote in message
> .. .
>>
>> Greetings Goldfish Gurus,
>>
>> I've kept goldfish now for about 15 years, and always used regular
>> aquarium gravel. Now, however, I am getting frustrated with the fact that
>> cleaning it out is always such a hassel. Just wondering what others use
>> and any experiences with it. I was thinking in the lines of marbles (not
>> the metal type), river rock, or even nothing. Keep in mind it is an
>> ornamental tank.
>
> It's better in my opinion to use gravel and use a gravel vacc when doing
> water changes. You have to do partial water changes anyway. My goldfish
> tanks are loaded with plants and I carefully go around them when I vac the
> gravel. The gravel, and some stones or rocks looks natural, allows the
> plants to anchor themselves, give the fish something to do picking over it
> for tidbits of whatever, and holds a lot of beneficial bacteria - important
> if you have power outages where you are. Other people prefer not to use
> gravel and I respect that opinion as well, but there is nothing uglier (to
> me) than a bare glass tank with a few fish and a plant or two in flower
> pots. There's nothing decorative there. That reminds me of the old
> caged-zoos where the animals had nothing to do in their bare cages but pace,
> pace, pace until they went mad. But to each his/her own.
>

The decorative aspect is also important to me. I keep my tank in a
prominent place in the dining room so it has to look nice.

>> Also, I have some nice driftwood I'd like to add. I notice that stores
>> sell similar pieces of wood attached to bases and wonder if there is
>> some sort of treatment required before adding it to a tank.
>
> Driftwood can be problematic unless you collect it from the woods. Yes,
> you can find pieces that look like what's at the lakes edges. If you
> know the water source is not contaminated you can give it a shot. I
> BAKE all drift wood before adding it to my tanks for decorative purposes
> and for the plecos to gnaw on. I'm not exact here in time or
> temperature. I usually bake it around 20 minutes at about 200F. That
> should kill anything alive in or on it. When cool you can start the
> process of waterlogging it.

Good idea, I guess that avoids the pollution problem mentioned in another
post.

Cheers
vYv

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <vYv> at > was
heard opining:

A change of filter system may also be required... not
> sure if the under-gravel type is as effective with marbles or river
> rock for instance.

I got rid of undergravel filters years ago. It's easier to keep the bottom
cleaner when you can use the gravel vac right down to the bottom. Be
careful around any live plants rooted in the gravel as the vac can prune
them off. Cleaning the muck out from under the UGF was a real chore and I
was never able to remove even 1/2 of it with a siphon hose down a tube.

> BTW, my tank is 10 gallons and has 2 adult fish (6 and 3 years old).
> Hoping to get a larger tank soon (thinking about different bottom
> cover in advance).

A nice brown gravel looks great. ;-) Get it at Home Depot or Lowe's for
less than $4 for a 50lb bag. It comes in the same size the Pet stores carry
but they will charge you so much more.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <vYv> at > was
heard opining:

> The decorative aspect is also important to me. I keep my tank in a
> prominent place in the dining room so it has to look nice.

I know exactly what you mean. They not only have to look nice and
decorative but I myself don't enjoy looking at a bored to death fish in an
empty tank with nothing put a few potted plants. They aren't going to act
natural as they do in a natural set-up or as natural as we can get an
aquarium to look.

I usually bake it around 20 minutes at about 200F. That
>> should kill anything alive in or on it. When cool you can start the
>> process of waterlogging it.

> Good idea, I guess that avoids the pollution problem mentioned in
> another post.

It sure does. :-) You can't tell my forest driftwood from the driftwood
down by the lake here.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Wed, 8 Mar 2006 18:43:40 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

<snip>
>I'm not exact here in time or temperature. I usually bake it
>around 20 minutes at about 200F. That should kill anything alive in or on
>it. When cool you can start the process of waterlogging it.

I'm not sure that kills "everything." Pressurized steam based
autoclaving requires 121C/250F for a minimum of 15 minutes to fully
sterilize. Dry heat sterilization is less efficient & usually
requires 160-170C/320-338F for periods of 2-4 hours. Time frames
should be even longer when the media can't reach those temps in that
time period. A big piece of driftwood will take longer to fully heat
than say small metal surgical instruments.

Unfortunately, completely sterilizing driftwood with heat to these
levels would discolor/char it. That's why some ppl recommend bleach.
I'd expect that to affect the color and other properties as well.
Really you want to find a way of avoiding pathogens. Complete
sterilization should not really be necessary (IMHO).

Since I'm a newbie I've so far avoided the complexities of driftwood,
choosing instead inert artificial driftwood. The problem is my ottos
have been going to town on the painted algae that's supposed to give
it "realism". Lots of paint is disappearing after only a few months.
:( Wish it was all simpler.

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Jolly Fisherman> at
> was heard opining:

> On Wed, 8 Mar 2006 18:43:40 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> I'm not exact here in time or temperature. I usually bake it
>> around 20 minutes at about 200F. That should kill anything alive in
>> or on it. When cool you can start the process of waterlogging it.
>
> I'm not sure that kills "everything." Pressurized steam based
> autoclaving requires 121C/250F for a minimum of 15 minutes to fully
> sterilize. Dry heat sterilization is less efficient & usually
> requires 160-170C/320-338F for periods of 2-4 hours. Time frames
> should be even longer when the media can't reach those temps in that
> time period. A big piece of driftwood will take longer to fully heat
> than say small metal surgical instruments.

So far I've never had a problem bringing in disease on any of this
driftwood. But then I'm not using huge dense pieces anyway. Fish disease
and parasites would likely be on the surface, not deep into the wood fibers.

> Unfortunately, completely sterilizing driftwood with heat to these
> levels would discolor/char it. That's why some ppl recommend bleach.
> I'd expect that to affect the color and other properties as well.
> Really you want to find a way of avoiding pathogens. Complete
> sterilization should not really be necessary (IMHO).
>
> Since I'm a newbie I've so far avoided the complexities of driftwood,
> choosing instead inert artificial driftwood. The problem is my ottos
> have been going to town on the painted algae that's supposed to give
> it "realism". Lots of paint is disappearing after only a few months.
> :( Wish it was all simpler.

I know what you mean. ;-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

dont use bleach. and actually at least the outside can be quite well sterilized by
"tyndalization" which involves boiling two days in a row.
frankly, driftwood shouldnt have much of anything..... give it a soak in peroxide, 3%
from the drug store. is not toxic to fish when left to air dry...... unlike bleach.

Ingrid

Jolly Fisherman > wrote:
That's why some ppl recommend bleach.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 03:04:34 GMT, wrote:

>dont use bleach. and actually at least the outside can be quite well sterilized by
>"tyndalization" which involves boiling two days in a row.

Holy cow. 2 days straight? So does this also accelerate the release
of tannins and therefore shorten the total prep time?

>frankly, driftwood shouldnt have much of anything..... give it a soak in peroxide, 3%
>from the drug store. is not toxic to fish when left to air dry...... unlike bleach.

Interesting.

[[email protected]]

boil for 10 minutes. cover and let it sit overnight. next day, boil for 10 minutes.

what happens is spore forming bacteria come out of hibernation after being boiled.
then reboiling kills em.
dont know about tannins. maybe you want to "mordant" the tannins with vinegar? or
use the peroxide which also bleaches the wood. Ingrid

Jolly Fisherman > wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 03:04:34 GMT, wrote:
>
>>dont use bleach. and actually at least the outside can be quite well sterilized by
>>"tyndalization" which involves boiling two days in a row.
>
>Holy cow. 2 days straight? So does this also accelerate the release
>of tannins and therefore shorten the total prep time?
>
>>frankly, driftwood shouldnt have much of anything..... give it a soak in peroxide, 3%
>>from the drug store. is not toxic to fish when left to air dry...... unlike bleach.
>
>Interesting.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 03:01:31 GMT, wrote:

>boil for 10 minutes. cover and let it sit overnight. next day, boil for 10 minutes.
>
>what happens is spore forming bacteria come out of hibernation after being boiled.
>then reboiling kills em.
>dont know about tannins. maybe you want to "mordant" the tannins with vinegar? or
>use the peroxide which also bleaches the wood. Ingrid

Interesting. Thanks