Newbie qestions

[David Starr]

We're in the process of planning our first pond, and I've got a couple questions
- more will follow, I'm sure. We're in central Michigan, zone 5.

The pond will be sort of an L shape. The top of the L will be a waterfall, and
a 2ft X 10ft stream leading to the pond itself. The main pond will be the base
of the L, about 6ft X 18ft. Since we have pretty cold winters here, we're
thinking of making the pond 4ft deep.

If the liner is one piece, it'll require a 30 X 30 liner, with quite a lot of it
being cut away, and basically wasted. If we use 2 liners, one for the pond and
one for the stream, will we be inviting trouble from the seam leaking?

Rather than dig down 4 feet, I was thinking about digging 3 feet, and using the
dirt to make a "berm" around the pond about a foot high to gain the additional
depth. Is this a practical way to do it?

Since this will require a lot of effort, I want to make sure I get it right and
am not inviting any disasters down the road. All advice will be gratefully
received.

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Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
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[Koi-Lo]

"David Starr" > wrote in message
...
> We're in the process of planning our first pond, and I've got a couple
> questions
> - more will follow, I'm sure. We're in central Michigan, zone 5.
>
> The pond will be sort of an L shape. The top of the L will be a
> waterfall, and
> a 2ft X 10ft stream leading to the pond itself. The main pond will be the
> base
> of the L, about 6ft X 18ft. Since we have pretty cold winters here, we're
> thinking of making the pond 4ft deep.
>
> If the liner is one piece, it'll require a 30 X 30 liner, with quite a lot
> of it
> being cut away, and basically wasted. If we use 2 liners, one for the
> pond and
> one for the stream, will we be inviting trouble from the seam leaking?

Have you shopped around to find a liner more the size you need? Call
around. I lucked out at Home Depot for one that was 12' by 14' - I needed
one 12' by 12' so the waste was minimal.

> Rather than dig down 4 feet, I was thinking about digging 3 feet, and
> using the
> dirt to make a "berm" around the pond about a foot high to gain the
> additional
> depth. Is this a practical way to do it?

I can't answer all your questions but a person I knew who bermed their pond
this way regretted it. The soil washed down from the rain and natural
leveling of land that occurs when exposed to the elements. It also looked
unnatural... they were going to redo it but I don't know if they ever did.
If you're going to have the sides a foot above the surrounding surface make
sure you somehow stabilize this berm to prevent natural leveling and high
and low spots later on.

> Since this will require a lot of effort, I want to make sure I get it
> right and
> am not inviting any disasters down the road. All advice will be
> gratefully
> received.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[CanadianCowboy©]

David Starr wrote:
> We're in the process of planning our first pond, and I've got a couple questions
> - more will follow, I'm sure. We're in central Michigan, zone 5.
>
> The pond will be sort of an L shape. The top of the L will be a waterfall, and
> a 2ft X 10ft stream leading to the pond itself. The main pond will be the base
> of the L, about 6ft X 18ft. Since we have pretty cold winters here, we're
> thinking of making the pond 4ft deep.
>
> If the liner is one piece, it'll require a 30 X 30 liner, with quite a lot of it
> being cut away, and basically wasted. If we use 2 liners, one for the pond and
> one for the stream, will we be inviting trouble from the seam leaking?
>
> Rather than dig down 4 feet, I was thinking about digging 3 feet, and using the
> dirt to make a "berm" around the pond about a foot high to gain the additional
> depth. Is this a practical way to do it?
>
> Since this will require a lot of effort, I want to make sure I get it right and
> am not inviting any disasters down the road. All advice will be gratefully
> received.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
> Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography
>
> Web Site: www.destarr.com
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I too would avoid using soil to add height.
You will be amazed how your pond changes shape from year to year from
soil movement and freeze/thaw effects.

[humBill]

I actually don't know lots about actual pond construction but I do have a
couple of thoughts. I think the berm idea might be somewhat doable but you
would need some sort of major support at the pond lip - landscape timbers,
blocks, etc. and would probably need to reinforce the submerged pond walls.
Although not as natural partial above ground walls are definitely not
unique.

Since I am not in your head I will suggest what if you made your L two
ponds. Perhaps some sort of dam and water feature for the stream to cascade
into the pond. Of course I dont know if you have an elevation to work with.
Just a couple of comments. They're free:)
Bill

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David Starr" > wrote in message
> ...
>> We're in the process of planning our first pond, and I've got a couple
>> questions
>> - more will follow, I'm sure. We're in central Michigan, zone 5.
>>
>> The pond will be sort of an L shape. The top of the L will be a
>> waterfall, and
>> a 2ft X 10ft stream leading to the pond itself. The main pond will be
>> the base
>> of the L, about 6ft X 18ft. Since we have pretty cold winters here,
>> we're
>> thinking of making the pond 4ft deep.
>>
>> If the liner is one piece, it'll require a 30 X 30 liner, with quite a
>> lot of it
>> being cut away, and basically wasted. If we use 2 liners, one for the
>> pond and
>> one for the stream, will we be inviting trouble from the seam leaking?
>
> Have you shopped around to find a liner more the size you need? Call
> around. I lucked out at Home Depot for one that was 12' by 14' - I needed
> one 12' by 12' so the waste was minimal.
>
>> Rather than dig down 4 feet, I was thinking about digging 3 feet, and
>> using the
>> dirt to make a "berm" around the pond about a foot high to gain the
>> additional
>> depth. Is this a practical way to do it?
>
> I can't answer all your questions but a person I knew who bermed their
> pond this way regretted it. The soil washed down from the rain and
> natural leveling of land that occurs when exposed to the elements. It
> also looked unnatural... they were going to redo it but I don't know if
> they ever did. If you're going to have the sides a foot above the
> surrounding surface make sure you somehow stabilize this berm to prevent
> natural leveling and high and low spots later on.
>
>> Since this will require a lot of effort, I want to make sure I get it
>> right and
>> am not inviting any disasters down the road. All advice will be
>> gratefully
>> received.
>
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://tinyurl.com/9do58
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>
>

[David Starr]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 19:27:37 GMT, "humBill" > wrote:

>I actually don't know lots about actual pond construction but I do have a
>couple of thoughts. I think the berm idea might be somewhat doable but you
>would need some sort of major support at the pond lip - landscape timbers,
>blocks, etc. and would probably need to reinforce the submerged pond walls.
>Although not as natural partial above ground walls are definitely not
>unique.
>
>Since I am not in your head I will suggest what if you made your L two
>ponds. Perhaps some sort of dam and water feature for the stream to cascade
>into the pond. Of course I dont know if you have an elevation to work with.
>Just a couple of comments. They're free:)

Thanks for the comments so far. The "berm" is out. There's no elevation, but
using rock retaining walls I could create one. Good idea on the 2nd pond.
Rather than a stream, I could have a shallow pond for marginals and bog plants,
then a dam with water spilling over into the second pond.

Now - does anyone have any experience seaming a liner? Rather than one huge
liner covering both ponds, one liner in each pond, seamed together, would make
things a lot easier.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[~ janj]

>On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:37:12 -0500, David Starr > wrote:

>We're in the process of planning our first pond, and I've got a couple questions
>- more will follow, I'm sure. We're in central Michigan, zone 5.
>
>The pond will be sort of an L shape. The top of the L will be a waterfall, and
>a 2ft X 10ft stream leading to the pond itself. The main pond will be the base
>of the L, about 6ft X 18ft. Since we have pretty cold winters here, we're
>thinking of making the pond 4ft deep.

Good idea. You'll be glad you did this, even if not in a cold climate.

>If the liner is one piece, it'll require a 30 X 30 liner, with quite a lot of it
>being cut away, and basically wasted. If we use 2 liners, one for the pond and
>one for the stream, will we be inviting trouble from the seam leaking?

I didn't seam mine. Haven't had a problem. Enough overlap is the key.

>Rather than dig down 4 feet, I was thinking about digging 3 feet, and using the
>dirt to make a "berm" around the pond about a foot high to gain the additional
>depth. Is this a practical way to do it?

Many have. In fact, there were pictures on Koiphen.com of someone doing
similar, if I run across them again I'll post the thread. ~ jan

--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Phyllis and Jim Hurley]

You can seamliner very successfully. Think roof. The seam matters a lot!
Our main pond is cement, but our berm ponds are linre, with patches and
seams.



--
See our pond at: home.bellsouth.net/personalpages/pwp-jameshurley
Ask me about Jog A Thon fundraiser (clears $120+ per child) at: jogathon.net
"David Starr" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 19:27:37 GMT, "humBill" > wrote:
>
> >I actually don't know lots about actual pond construction but I do have a
> >couple of thoughts. I think the berm idea might be somewhat doable but
you
> >would need some sort of major support at the pond lip - landscape
timbers,
> >blocks, etc. and would probably need to reinforce the submerged pond
walls.
> >Although not as natural partial above ground walls are definitely not
> >unique.
> >
> >Since I am not in your head I will suggest what if you made your L two
> >ponds. Perhaps some sort of dam and water feature for the stream to
cascade
> >into the pond. Of course I dont know if you have an elevation to work
with.
> >Just a couple of comments. They're free:)
>
> Thanks for the comments so far. The "berm" is out. There's no elevation,
but
> using rock retaining walls I could create one. Good idea on the 2nd pond.
> Rather than a stream, I could have a shallow pond for marginals and bog
plants,
> then a dam with water spilling over into the second pond.
>
> Now - does anyone have any experience seaming a liner? Rather than one
huge
> liner covering both ponds, one liner in each pond, seamed together, would
make
> things a lot easier.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
> Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography
>
> Web Site: www.destarr.com
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Derek Broughton]

Hal wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 17:49:16 -0500, David Starr
> > wrote:
>
>>Thanks for the comments so far. The "berm" is out. There's no elevation,
>>but
>>using rock retaining walls I could create one. Good idea on the 2nd pond.
>>Rather than a stream, I could have a shallow pond for marginals and bog
>>plants, then a dam with water spilling over into the second pond.
>
> The berm is a good idea! If you have no incline in the site can't
> you build a berm that will tolerate normal rainfall? However a berm
> above grade will keep runoff from entering your pond and destroying
> the natural balance with acid rain or other ugly stuff from the hill
> above. Building a pond with the top at ground level is not good.
>
> Shallow pond with marginal's and bog plants is a good idea too.

I completely agree with Hal. My first pond was made with about a 1' berm,
in exactly the way you suggested. It enables you to make a pond larger
with less effort, you don't have to find anywhere to dispose of the fill,
it prevents problems with runoff, and it also lowers the possibility of
rainfall lifting your liner. Digging 3' should be plenty.

I also made it an odd shape and cut and joined liner bits. I never had a
leakage problem, and I think you can do that just fine with liner tape, but
it is easier to use one piece. I'll point out that you do _not_ need to go
30' x 30'. Think of it as if it's a long pond, with the waterfall inline
with the rest - how much liner would that take? Now just fold the
waterfall around the corner... You'd need about 40x15, so only about 2/3
what you planned. It's still a whole lot less if you join bits. If you do
join pieces, your join between a stream and the main pond need not actually
be below the waterline of the main pond (in fact, it's best if it isn't),
so you lower the chance of leakage.

One last thing. How do you plan to plumb it? If you use a submersible
pump, run the plumbing up to the waterfall _inside_ the stream. That way,
you never need a hose to be outside the pond, lowering the risk of leaks at
plumbing joints.
--
derek

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Derek Broughton> at
> was heard opining:
>
> I completely agree with Hal. My first pond was made with about a 1'
> berm, in exactly the way you suggested..........
==================
Some soil will flatten with the natural weather. Our clay soil does. We
had a slight berm and it lasted no more than a few years before it leveled
out (46" rain average here with heavy downpours.) The runoff doesn't enter
our ponds because the liner comes over the low berm and is folded UPWARD
about 3". The rock necklace hides this upturned liner edge and it's
supported on both sides by rocks. It's sunk as far as it will I believe and
we still have the 3" protecting the pond from runoff.

Those other people had a larger higher berm, no turned-up liner and did get
run off in their pond.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[David Starr]

Jan - thanks for the Koiphen.com link. Tons of info in their forums.

Also, not seaming, but overlapping the 2 liners at the end of the stream may
work fine, but I'll probably seam it just for my peace of mind.

The "berm" is back. Thank you, Hal and the Hurleys. We have a small back yard,
32 X 40, with a patio & some lava rock walkways. The entire back yard is a
perennial garden, btw. So, to get all the pond space I can, I'm considering
concrete blocks, 2 high, for the berm. Then, I'll build another 2 block high
wall parallel to the pond wall and about 12" from it. This will give me
somewhere to put some of the excavated dirt, and create planting space.

My biggest problem now is having patience to plan everything first. It was 60
today, the warmest day of the year. I wanted to grab the shovel & start, but
want to get everything planned out first. Instead of thinking about pumps,
filters, skimmers, etc., these are the things I need to work on first.

Just a wee bit more complex than diggin' a hole, turnin' on the garden hose, &
tossin' in the fish. :-)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Phyllis and Jim Hurley]

The blocks, with appropriate cushioning and with a sloped berm outside the
2nd row will give you a straight edge into the pond. Our 24" dropoff has
foiled herons and coons. The lower side of our pond is an 18" berm. Youcna
see it on our website on the lower side of the pond. The upper berms are
about 4' tall and have the benches and falls in them.

Good luck.

Jim

--
See our pond at: home.bellsouth.net/personalpages/pwp-jameshurley
Ask me about Jog A Thon fundraiser (clears $120+ per child) at: jogathon.net
"David Starr" > wrote in message
...
> Jan - thanks for the Koiphen.com link. Tons of info in their forums.
>
> Also, not seaming, but overlapping the 2 liners at the end of the stream
may
> work fine, but I'll probably seam it just for my peace of mind.
>
> The "berm" is back. Thank you, Hal and the Hurleys. We have a small back
yard,
> 32 X 40, with a patio & some lava rock walkways. The entire back yard is
a
> perennial garden, btw. So, to get all the pond space I can, I'm
considering
> concrete blocks, 2 high, for the berm. Then, I'll build another 2 block
high
> wall parallel to the pond wall and about 12" from it. This will give me
> somewhere to put some of the excavated dirt, and create planting space.
>
> My biggest problem now is having patience to plan everything first. It
was 60
> today, the warmest day of the year. I wanted to grab the shovel & start,
but
> want to get everything planned out first. Instead of thinking about
pumps,
> filters, skimmers, etc., these are the things I need to work on first.
>
> Just a wee bit more complex than diggin' a hole, turnin' on the garden
hose, &
> tossin' in the fish. :-)
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
> Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography
>
> Web Site: www.destarr.com
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[~ janj]

>On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 18:05:48 -0500, David Starr > wrote:

>Jan - thanks for the Koiphen.com link. Tons of info in their forums.

You're welcome. :)

>Just a wee bit more complex than diggin' a hole, turnin' on the garden hose, &
>tossin' in the fish. :-)

Oh for sure, but..... that's pretty much it. <D&R> ;) ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Derek Broughton]

Hal wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 18:05:48 -0500, David Starr
> > wrote:
>
>>So, to get all the pond space I can, I'm considering
>>concrete blocks, 2 high, for the berm. Then, I'll build another 2 block
>>high wall parallel to the pond wall and about 12" from it.
>
> I trust you understand there will be some pressure exerted by the
> weight of the water and cinder block (commonly called concrete block)
> walls so popular in house construction aren't adequate to hold back
> the weight of water simply placed on dirt without a footer. (They
> roll over if not backed or adequately supported.)

I thought this was true, too, but some time ago I was convinced otherwise
here. The weight of the water at 16" depth (the base of the concrete
blocks) is still pretty small. You _do_ need good support, as frost
heaving will eventually help them roll, but it sounds to me like David's
planning a double wall with earth fill. That's overengineering!
--
derek

[David Starr]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:28:30 -0400, Derek Broughton > wrote:

>Hal wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 18:05:48 -0500, David Starr
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>So, to get all the pond space I can, I'm considering
>>>concrete blocks, 2 high, for the berm. Then, I'll build another 2 block
>>>high wall parallel to the pond wall and about 12" from it.
>>
>> I trust you understand there will be some pressure exerted by the
>> weight of the water and cinder block (commonly called concrete block)
>> walls so popular in house construction aren't adequate to hold back
>> the weight of water simply placed on dirt without a footer. (They
>> roll over if not backed or adequately supported.)
>
>I thought this was true, too, but some time ago I was convinced otherwise
>here. The weight of the water at 16" depth (the base of the concrete
>blocks) is still pretty small. You _do_ need good support, as frost
>heaving will eventually help them roll, but it sounds to me like David's
>planning a double wall with earth fill. That's overengineering!


The double wall is what I'm considering. The earth fill would give me a place
for some of the dirt, as well as a place for more plants. What I'm considering
are 24" high walls, with rebar through each block driven 3 or 4 feet into the
ground, and the holes in the blocks filled with concrete. If I go with a single
wall, the rebar should give enough strength to hold everything in place. Before
I make a final decision, I'll talk to our son in law, who has been doing conrete
work for several years.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[San Diego Joe]

"David Starr" wrote:


>
> Now - does anyone have any experience seaming a liner? Rather than one huge
> liner covering both ponds, one liner in each pond, seamed together, would make
> things a lot easier.

My liner is two pieces. The liner for the stream overlaps the liner for the
pond. The pond liner extends under the stream liner about four feet.

No leaks, no seaming.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

[Derek Broughton]

David Starr wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:28:30 -0400, Derek Broughton >
> wrote:
>
>>I thought this was true, too, but some time ago I was convinced otherwise
>>here. The weight of the water at 16" depth (the base of the concrete
>>blocks) is still pretty small. You _do_ need good support, as frost
>>heaving will eventually help them roll, but it sounds to me like David's
>>planning a double wall with earth fill. That's overengineering!
>
>
> The double wall is what I'm considering. The earth fill would give me a
> place
> for some of the dirt, as well as a place for more plants. What I'm
> considering are 24" high walls, with rebar through each block driven 3 or
> 4 feet into the
> ground, and the holes in the blocks filled with concrete. If I go with a
> single
> wall, the rebar should give enough strength to hold everything in place.
> Before I make a final decision, I'll talk to our son in law, who has been
> doing conrete work for several years.

I'm no engineer, but it sounds like it will work fine to me.
--
derek
>