blue betta

[Nikki]

a while back, not to long ago I had got two red bettas from my LFS that is
closing, they were sick and they had got into a fight at some point before I
got them (fins were a mess) and a couple people on here helped me, and they
are doing great now, fins are even looking better
so maybe I can ask one more time.
My husband will be happy at the end of the month when I will have to go
further then three blocks to bring fish home (LFS is closing) : )
They had two blue betta's (who did not look bad) but after a couple days I
noticed one had a couple spots that looked like ick, at that point I should
have looked close but did not, I started a ick treatment yesterday morning,
today I noticed that one was just staying on the bottom of the tank not
coming up to eat or anything, I got a magnified glass and was looking close
at him and thought I seen black spots but they are pin holes, now I am not
sure if in the light I was using it was ick or these pin holes i was seeing,
I think the pinholes are tail rot (tell me if I am wrong) I have an
antibiotic that says its for tail rot, so I opened the capsule and put some
in, now I don't know if I should treat with ick or antibiotic, I figure
while this is going on I will change water every day, but as of last night
it has not eaten, which is not good, anything else i should be doing?
thanks Nikki

[Altum]

Nikki wrote:
> a while back, not to long ago I had got two red bettas from my LFS that is
> closing, they were sick and they had got into a fight at some point before I
> got them (fins were a mess) and a couple people on here helped me, and they
> are doing great now, fins are even looking better
> so maybe I can ask one more time.
> My husband will be happy at the end of the month when I will have to go
> further then three blocks to bring fish home (LFS is closing) : )
> They had two blue betta's (who did not look bad) but after a couple days I
> noticed one had a couple spots that looked like ick, at that point I should
> have looked close but did not, I started a ick treatment yesterday morning,
> today I noticed that one was just staying on the bottom of the tank not
> coming up to eat or anything, I got a magnified glass and was looking close
> at him and thought I seen black spots but they are pin holes, now I am not
> sure if in the light I was using it was ick or these pin holes i was seeing,
> I think the pinholes are tail rot (tell me if I am wrong) I have an
> antibiotic that says its for tail rot, so I opened the capsule and put some
> in, now I don't know if I should treat with ick or antibiotic, I figure
> while this is going on I will change water every day, but as of last night
> it has not eaten, which is not good, anything else i should be doing?
> thanks Nikki
>
Pin holes or splits in the fins are minor damage from poor water quality
or ammonia. They're really common in pet store bettas where the water
isn't changed enough. That sort of damage will heal on its own and your
daily water changes are perfect. If any whitish clumps or fuzz develop
on the fin, try treating daily with a Q-tip and some peroxide. Then dab
on Neosporin (thanks, Frank!).

If you are SURE there was ich, use the ich medicine the same as with
your other bettas.

Now, the not eating and lethargy is troublesome. It's a sign of an
internal parasitic or bacterial infection. To be honest, I don't have
much luck treating fish that have stopped eating. Changing a lot of
water will help his immune system start working better so watch for a
few more days and see if he doesn't improve.

If he doesn't perk up, ping Tynk or IDzine and see whether they have any
ideas. Both are betta breeders and experts.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
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[IDzine01]

I think there may be a bit of overmedicating going on here. Pin holes
in the tail are nothing to worry about and will heal themselves in a
couple of days. Even more serious fin rot can often be treated
successfully by increasing your water changes and monitoring your water
parameters. To put an already stressed fish through a course of
antibiotics may add additional stress.

That said, it's important to finish the course of Ich treatment. As you
may or may not know there are three life stages to these parasites and
they are only affected by the medication a couple of days out of the
cycle so if you stop treating the Ich it's very possible you will miss
those days and they will return in greater numbers.

Whether or not you finish the treatment of antibiotics is sort of up to
you. Antibiotics should be followed through because under-medicating or
shortening the course may lead to antibiotic-resistant bacteria. On the
other hand, unnecessary treatment may be harmful to your betta.

[IDzine01]

>If he doesn't perk up, ping Tynk or IDzine and see whether they have any
>ideas. Both are betta breeders and experts.

I don't breed bettas I just keep them... love too, but I don't ...
That's all Tynk.

Actually, I'm not an expert either. Sounds nice though. I think of
experts as those crazy guys at the aquarium clubs who speak of aquarium
fish only in their Latin names and use lots of acronyms. You know, the
one's who spend all their wife's hard earned money for one more trip to
Malaysia, China, South America... etc to wade through leech infested
swamps and photograph long lost wild species. I watch them in awe.

[Tynk]

IDzine01 wrote:
> I think there may be a bit of overmedicating going on here. Pin holes
> in the tail are nothing to worry about and will heal themselves in a
> couple of days. Even more serious fin rot can often be treated
> successfully by increasing your water changes and monitoring your water
> parameters. To put an already stressed fish through a course of
> antibiotics may add additional stress.
>
> That said, it's important to finish the course of Ich treatment. As you
> may or may not know there are three life stages to these parasites and
> they are only affected by the medication a couple of days out of the
> cycle so if you stop treating the Ich it's very possible you will miss
> those days and they will return in greater numbers.
>
> Whether or not you finish the treatment of antibiotics is sort of up to
> you. Antibiotics should be followed through because under-medicating or
> shortening the course may lead to antibiotic-resistant bacteria. On the
> other hand, unnecessary treatment may be harmful to your betta.

I fully agree with IDzine01. = )

Increase water changes, don't rush into medicating, and finish the Ich
meds. I prefer Quick Cure to any other Ich med...even those with the
same ingredients (RidIch and RidIch+) don't seem to work as fast and I
don't know why.
I also treat a full 7 days (bottle says like 3). The life cycle of the
Ich parasite can only be killed at one stage of it's life cycle, and
it's not the stage of white spots you see on the fish either.
This is why a full 7-10 day treatment is needed.
I also will NOT treat with quick cure if a new fish shows a spot or
two. I first do another water change and some salt.
If your water is kept clean, and you catch it fast, and the fish isn't
suffering from anything else that would tax it's immune system, they
99% oif the time fight the little buggers themselves without the need
for harsh medications....which all Ich meds are.
Same with antibiotics...never treat unless you are absolutely sure what
you are treating and that it's the proper antibiotic. Many just treat
gram negative or gram positive strains of bacteria.....and not every
infection is the same, so you really need to know what you are dealing
with before treating.
Some antibiotics are broad spectrum and treat both gram positive and
negative strains of bacterial infections, but again, never treat unless
you are absolutely sure of what it is your fish is fighting.

[Nikki]

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I don't breed bettas I just keep them... love too, but I don't ...
> That's all Tynk.
>
I have never breed betta's, but have raised guppy fry which turned out very
pretty (not that i had to do much, but i'll take credit for it anyway) but i
have tried to get a female betta, no local pet stores carry them... said
they are ungly...hmm...so i found a place that breeds all kind of neat fish
and they are going to order them for me, i figured i may be better off with
my own instead of buying them sick from the store around here.
Nikki

[Tynk]

IDzine01 wrote:
> >If he doesn't perk up, ping Tynk or IDzine and see whether they have any
> >ideas. Both are betta breeders and experts.
>
> I don't breed bettas I just keep them... love too, but I don't ...
> That's all Tynk.
>
> Actually, I'm not an expert either. Sounds nice though. I think of
> experts as those crazy guys at the aquarium clubs who speak of aquarium
> fish only in their Latin names and use lots of acronyms. You know, the
> one's who spend all their wife's hard earned money for one more trip to
> Malaysia, China, South America... etc to wade through leech infested
> swamps and photograph long lost wild species. I watch them in awe.

I totally feel the same way IDzine01!!
I just have yrs of hands on experience with these fish and I have
concentrated on them as well as Angelfish for most of those yrs.
Also...I made just about every mistake a newbie could at the beginning,
so I like to try and help folks avoid those blunders I have already
perfected. LOL


> Actually, I'm not an expert either. Sounds nice though. I think of
> experts as those crazy guys at the aquarium clubs who speak of aquarium
> fish only in their Latin names and use lots of acronyms. You know, the
> one's who spend all their wife's hard earned money for one more trip to
> Malaysia, China, South America... etc to wade through leech infested
> swamps and photograph long lost wild species. I watch them in awe.

[Altum]

IDzine01 wrote:
> I think there may be a bit of overmedicating going on here. Pin holes
> in the tail are nothing to worry about and will heal themselves in a
> couple of days. Even more serious fin rot can often be treated
> successfully by increasing your water changes and monitoring your water
> parameters. To put an already stressed fish through a course of
> antibiotics may add additional stress.
>
> That said, it's important to finish the course of Ich treatment. As you
> may or may not know there are three life stages to these parasites and
> they are only affected by the medication a couple of days out of the
> cycle so if you stop treating the Ich it's very possible you will miss
> those days and they will return in greater numbers.
>
> Whether or not you finish the treatment of antibiotics is sort of up to
> you. Antibiotics should be followed through because under-medicating or
> shortening the course may lead to antibiotic-resistant bacteria. On the
> other hand, unnecessary treatment may be harmful to your betta.

I completely agree with you about antibiotics. With only one dose, I'd
discontinue treatment. The worst thing for resistance seems to be
stopping after three or four days instead of going for a full course of
seven to ten days. Even a full course of antibiotics can leave some
resistant bacteria, which is why they should be a last resort if you
choose to use them at all.

I wasn't sure from Nikki's post whether she really saw ich, or only
pinholes in the fins. No sense using ich meds if there was no ich.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Nikki]

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I think there may be a bit of overmedicating going on here.

Yeah your right...i kind of over reacted...when i seen the white spots
(which i am thinking it was ich, because if i remember correct they were on
the body also, i used the first dose of ich +

Pin holes
> in the tail are nothing to worry about and will heal themselves in a
> couple of days. Even more serious fin rot can often be treated
> successfully by increasing your water changes and monitoring your water
> parameters.

Yeah they were in a throw away cup at the lfs, so daily water changes will
probably help
is there a difference between pin holes in the fins, and tail/fin rot?? and
how do you tell which is which

To put an already stressed fish through a course of
> antibiotics may add additional stress. > That said, it's important to
> finish the course of Ich treatment. As you > may or may not know there are
> three life stages to these parasites and
> they are only affected by the medication a couple of days out of the
> cycle so if you stop treating the Ich it's very possible you will miss
> those days and they will return in greater numbers.

I'm just going to stick with the rid ich+ instead of antibiotics, yes i
know about the cycle, the last bettas i got from this place had ich, altum
wrote me down a schedule to treat the ich, and they came though great, and
are doing very well now, but they never acted sick like this one is, not
swimming around or eating.
>
>
> Whether or not you finish the treatment of antibiotics is sort of up to
> you. Antibiotics should be followed through because under-medicating or
> shortening the course may lead to antibiotic-resistant bacteria. On the
> other hand, unnecessary treatment may be harmful to your betta.

I'm just sticking with the ich+ and daily water changes, i would feel so
much better if i could get him to eat, i guess i will see what happens. i
keep all my betta tanks on 80-82 degrees, i know thats fine with ich but if
by chance its fin rot, heat wont make it worse right?

thanks Nikki

[Altum]

Nikki wrote:
> "IDzine01" > wrote in message
> oups.com...

> Yeah they were in a throw away cup at the lfs, so daily water changes will
> probably help
> is there a difference between pin holes in the fins, and tail/fin rot?? and
> how do you tell which is which

Fins can have pin holes, splits, or look ragged from physical damage or
poor water conditions. Some people call that "fin rot", but it's easily
cured with clean water.

Sometimes, if the bad water quality continues, damaged fins get
bacterial or fungal infections. They will have whitish stuff on the
edges, or fluffy patches. Sometimes fins don't even show anything
obvious, but they keep getting worse rather than healing. That is what
I call "fin rot." It is an active infection and requires a treatment
beyond clean water. Your Q-tip with peroxide is a good one.

A good aquarist should almost never see real "fin rot." As soon as fin
damage is evident, you prevent infection from setting in by changing a
lot of water and fixing the water quality problems (like cleaning the
filter and vacuuming the gravel).

> I'm just sticking with the ich+ and daily water changes, i would feel so
> much better if i could get him to eat, i guess i will see what happens. i
> keep all my betta tanks on 80-82 degrees, i know thats fine with ich but if
> by chance its fin rot, heat wont make it worse right?

It doesn't sound like his fins are infected, only damaged. Heat won't
make it worse. Your fish needs the heat to help him fight off whatever
is keeping him from eating. Can you get live brine shrimp? You should
wait say...three days, and then offer him some brine shrimp.
Sometimes bettas will strike at something wiggling and start eating a
little better.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Nikki]

"Altum" > wrote in message
et...

>
> I wasn't sure from Nikki's post whether she really saw ich, or only
> pinholes in the fins. No sense using ich meds if there was no ich.
>

Pinholes are in addition to ich not instead sorry, after thinking about it,
i seen white spots on the body so it was ich, i am just wondering now if the
pinholes are just that, just pinholes or is it rot, i dont know how to tell
and i dont know if they are different things. well i guess it dont make a
difference being i am doing daily water changes which is what i understand i
would do for either

Nikki

PS: Tynk, you said you use salt, in the tank or salt bath? and do you only
do that when they are sick, i noticed some people use it some dont, so i
was just wondering

[Nikki]

"Altum" > wrote in message
et...
> Nikki wrote:
>> "IDzine01" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>

all right, I see, I think we both posted at the same time I had posted once
more asking specifically what the difference was between the two, When I
change their water daily I either change 100% or 50% depending, I was very
surprised after how bad the red ones look how quickly they came back and how
good they look now, i just got them so maybe with the water changes he will
start to look better, i got them each in a tank that is 13 inch long, 10
inch high, and 7 inch wide, holds i think about 3-4 gl of water (but i'm
guessing about gl) they are ok tanks for them, gives them room to swim.
Nikki

> --
> Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
> Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[IDzine01]

There is a difference between fin loss and fin rot but it isn't always
very obvious how to tell them apart. Fin rot is a bacterial infection
and often occurs due to poor water conditions. Bettas are extremely
susceptible to it and it's not uncommon for even seasoned veterans to
have to deal with it from time to time. General fin loss or tearing
(pin holes too) may occur if your betta snags his fins on something or
from flaring. Fin rot can often be identified by black or bloodied fin
tips. Often chunks of fins will just slough off. They are often
characteristically tattered at the ends as well. The signs of fin rot
may be less obvious with darker colored or red bettas.

http://www.nippyfish.net/finlossfinrot.html

[Richard Sexton]

>> Whether or not you finish the treatment of antibiotics is sort of up to
>> you. Antibiotics should be followed through because under-medicating or
>> shortening the course may lead to antibiotic-resistant bacteria. On the
>> other hand, unnecessary treatment may be harmful to your betta.
>
>I completely agree with you about antibiotics. With only one dose, I'd
>discontinue treatment. The worst thing for resistance seems to be
>stopping after three or four days instead of going for a full course of
>seven to ten days. Even a full course of antibiotics can leave some
>resistant bacteria, which is why they should be a last resort if you
>choose to use them at all.

No. Untergasser says antibiotics should only be used as a last
resort with an irreplacable fish (think $25K koi) in a glass
only tank. You absolutley must finish the course of treatment
if started. These days it's very strongly recommended a test
be done on the cultured big to see if the antibiotic has
resistance to the bug. If it does not they WILL be dead at
the end of the treatment.

Non antibiotic bacteriocides can be fond at:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/alternatives/


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Frank]

Nikki wrote,
>i got them each in a tank that is 13 inch long, 10
>inch high, and 7 inch wide........

Not quite 4 gals............. Frank

[Tynk]

Nikki wrote:
> "IDzine01" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > I don't breed bettas I just keep them... love too, but I don't ...
> > That's all Tynk.
> >
> I have never breed betta's, but have raised guppy fry which turned out very
> pretty (not that i had to do much, but i'll take credit for it anyway) but i
> have tried to get a female betta, ...so i found a place that breeds all kind of neat fish
> and they are going to order them for me, i figured i may be better off with
> my own instead of buying them sick from the store around here.
> Nikki
Hi there Nikki.

<<no local pet stores carry them... said
<<they are ungly...hmm

Anyone who claims that female Bettas are ugly is a fool and doesn't
know squat about Bettas!!!!
Oh this one makes me as mad as when people pronounce Betta as "bait-uh"
(it's Bet-uh of course).
I would like to email you some pics of female Bettas and you can tell
me how *ugly* they are, LOL.
You see....
In the shops most females will show *submission coloring*. This is
simply because they've been tossed together with other strange females
that they do not know. They do not have a hierarchy established and
that means everybody is a little freaked out.
Their submission coloring is when they blanch out their coloring and
show horizontal barring. Once in their estrablished new home, they
quickly color up.
Of course may times in the shops you will see lovely colored females
all in one tank.
They are either spawn siblings and have had their pecking order figured
out since they were babes, or they have been sitting there a while and
have established their hierarchy already.
So drop me an email to remind me to send you pics of my personal *ugly*
female Bettas. = )~
Ugly....sheesh!
More like ignorant employees.
I will add one more thing too....do NOT even think about spawning
Bettas until you have a lot of experience in Betta husbandry, and
become well educated in Betta body language, proper care, and the much
needed research on how to raise Betta fry. These babies are almost too
small to even see when hatched.
I'm talking get out a magnifying glass until they're a few days old.
Because of their tiny size, they need special size foods and even the
tank conditions need to be just right or they all die off.
You know how large your live bearer fry were. Those are huge monster
babies compared to Betta fry.
= O <---- you're making this face right now, aren't you. = )

[Richard Sexton]

>Anyone who claims that female Bettas are ugly is a fool and doesn't
>know squat about Bettas!

Agreed. A tank full of just female bettas can be quite
stunning.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Tynk]

Richard Sexton wrote:

>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net>


>Anyone who claims that female Bettas are ugly is a fool and doesn't
> >know squat about Bettas!
>
> Agreed. A tank full of just female bettas can be quite
> stunning.


This is how my 75g looks like, as I keep all my females in it, along
with several young Angelfish I'm growing out.
I just love the rainbow of colors, their interations and especially,
their "language".

[Gill Passman]

Tynk wrote:
> Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>
>>--
>> Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
>>Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
>>1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
>>633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net>
>
>
>
> >Anyone who claims that female Bettas are ugly is a fool and doesn't
>
>>>know squat about Bettas!
>>
>>Agreed. A tank full of just female bettas can be quite
>>stunning.
>
>
>
> This is how my 75g looks like, as I keep all my females in it, along
> with several young Angelfish I'm growing out.
> I just love the rainbow of colors, their interations and especially,
> their "language".
>

I must admit I am seriously considering getting some female bettas for
the new 130g tank....in the places that I go they just look like male
bettas without the plumage...very colourful...

[Nikki]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Nikki wrote:
>> "IDzine01" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > I don't breed bettas I just keep them... love too, but I don't ...
>> > That's all Tynk.
>> >
>> I have never breed betta's, but have raised guppy fry which turned out
>> very
>> pretty (not that i had to do much, but i'll take credit for it anyway)
>> but i
>> have tried to get a female betta, ...so i found a place that breeds all
>> kind of neat fish
>> and they are going to order them for me, i figured i may be better off
>> with
>> my own instead of buying them sick from the store around here.
>> Nikki
> Hi there Nikki.
>
> <<no local pet stores carry them... said
> <<they are ungly...hmm
>
> Anyone who claims that female Bettas are ugly is a fool and doesn't
> know squat about Bettas!!!!
> Oh this one makes me as mad as when people pronounce Betta as "bait-uh"
> (it's Bet-uh of course).
> I would like to email you some pics of female Bettas and you can tell
> me how *ugly* they are, LOL.
> You see....
> In the shops most females will show *submission coloring*. This is
> simply because they've been tossed together with other strange females
> that they do not know. They do not have a hierarchy established and
> that means everybody is a little freaked out.
> Their submission coloring is when they blanch out their coloring and
> show horizontal barring. Once in their estrablished new home, they
> quickly color up.
> Of course may times in the shops you will see lovely colored females
> all in one tank.
> They are either spawn siblings and have had their pecking order figured
> out since they were babes, or they have been sitting there a while and
> have established their hierarchy already.
> So drop me an email to remind me to send you pics of my personal *ugly*
> female Bettas. = )~
> Ugly....sheesh!
> More like ignorant employees.
> I will add one more thing too....do NOT even think about spawning
> Bettas until you have a lot of experience in Betta husbandry, and
> become well educated in Betta body language, proper care, and the much
> needed research on how to raise Betta fry. These babies are almost too
> small to even see when hatched.
> I'm talking get out a magnifying glass until they're a few days old.
> Because of their tiny size, they need special size foods and even the
> tank conditions need to be just right or they all die off.
> You know how large your live bearer fry were. Those are huge monster
> babies compared to Betta fry.
> = O <---- you're making this face right now, aren't you. = )
>

No, not at all, I like all the info I can get, your right I have only been
keeping betta's for a short while, but really do enjoy them, I have read a
lot about breeding them, every thing I could find off the net anyway, but I
am aware doing it is much different, but I would not do it until I was a bit
more confident in keeping mom & dad alive first.
But I am getting a few females now, I also have seen a lot of pretty female
betta's, I have a breeder ordering them for me, I ask one of the fish stores
around here first and she said she can only get them six at a time, then no
one wants them because they are ugly, so she is stuck with them, I did
offered to get all six, but she said no its a hassle, I called some of the
other places and they told me the same thing, every one wants the males
because they are pretty, they said when people see the female they are not
want they want because they are not pretty like the male.
So yes I agree with you and don't think they are ugly, however if you think
about some of the reasons people get bettas, they see them and think they
are pretty and easy to take care of, for a first fish for their kids, they
usually don't get taken care of well, most of the time no filter or heater,
that's even if they are ok when you buy them, I have got four, three were
sick that same day, which is from being left in cups at the store, the blue
ones I just got, there was a film over the water when I got them, and really
how hard is it to change water in a cup.
Anyway before I decide to breed them I will have had figured it out, until
six months ago we only had "big fish" we kept Oscars, paccu piranha's, we
did have a few jack dempsey's, but mostly big fish which were easier to take
care of in the sense they did not get sick as often, and they lived a long
time.
anyway thanks for the info
and remember to send the pic of your female betta's

[Nikki]

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> There is a difference between fin loss and fin rot but it isn't always
> very obvious how to tell them apart. Fin rot is a bacterial infection
> and often occurs due to poor water conditions. Bettas are extremely
> susceptible to it and it's not uncommon for even seasoned veterans to
> have to deal with it from time to time. General fin loss or tearing
> (pin holes too) may occur if your betta snags his fins on something or
> from flaring. Fin rot can often be identified by black or bloodied fin
> tips. Often chunks of fins will just slough off. They are often
> characteristically tattered at the ends as well. The signs of fin rot
> may be less obvious with darker colored or red bettas.
>
> http://www.nippyfish.net/finlossfinrot.html
>
Ok, let me give you a quick update, he (Mr. blue betta) is swimming a bit
today, I was surprised after yesterday, it has also made it a little easier
to see all the fins, it was hard when he was sitting at the bottom of the
tank. I think they are just pinholes, if you took the pinholes away his
tail/fin would look completely normal, no snags, rips, or anything along
those lines, just pinholes. I see what you are saying now (the difference
between rot/pinholes). Another good thing is this morning he took a few
pieces of food, I have had him for a week, and he was in a cup at the store,
so I don't know that he could of got snagged on anything, but the water in
the cup had a film on top, not sure from what, maybe that has something to
do with it.
He is not as active as the others, however he does not look like he might
die at any moment as he did yesterday.
We had been talking about ich, I have a question, I know you can not kill it
when its on the fish, the meds kill it when it falls off the fish and is in
the rocks, if I understand right you can kill ich with high temps, so when
it falls off the betta, and is in the rocks, could you not empty out the
tank and boil the rocks, which would kill it or at least lessen the time you
need to use the medication, is that right or not, I see where it would not
be reasonable to do this in a big tank with a lot of stuff in it, but in a
QT ???
Let me know if you have a minute
Thanks for the help Nikki

[Nikki]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Nikki wrote:
>> "Altum" > wrote in message
>> et...
>>
>> >
>
> Hi Nikki.
>
> I use it in the tank, which is usually a small quarantine tank.
> I couldn't even tell you the last time I used in my 75g..ya know...I
> don't even think I have come to think of it.
> I must add that this all depends on the level of infestation. Also, if
> it's in the gills, I go straight to Quick Cure and forget the salt.
> I would like to stress the importance of water changes before rushing
> into meds or a salt treatment.
> It should always be the first thing you do....doesn't matter what the
> problem, or illness....do a water change first. = )
>
> The whole salt argument about whether or not to use salt in a tank has
> more to do with using it on a regular basis, not as a treatment.
> That my dear is a whole different can of worms and a debate that will
> rage on forever.
> I used to add salt in all my tanks. My Angel and Betta tanks. However,
> I stopped yrs ago and I saw no real difference.
> It didn't seem to help or hinder, so why bother adding another
> chemical.
> Now there are some fish species that really should have it..such as
> Guppies and Mollies.
> I know this isn't what you meant when asking about adding salt in your
> situation, but I thought it should be said too.
>

Actually I was wondering about using it on a daily basis, because I had read
it sometimes keeps them from getting sick, so I wanted to ask someone who
keeps betta's. I see what you mean about adding extra stuff when its not
needed, I had never used it in my guppy tank before a few months ago, and
since I started using it they seem a lot better off, I guess I was wondering
if it was the same for betta's, but its probably better to just use it for
them when needed for being sick.
I do a lot of water changes, before last month when I got some new fish and
they had ich, I had not had no problems with sick fish, as a matter a fact
as long as my tanks were set up I did not have ich meds in my house, and had
not lost no fish, then I did something stupid and got new fish and did not
QT them, put them in my guppy tank, within a day or two I seen ich and there
my problems started, and again I went back to that store and got 2 red
betta's and a pleco, they were sick, then two blue betta's and one of them
is sick now. I have a guppy tank and the 29 gl that has the gourmi and
goldfish, before all the problems with the sick fish I used to change 30%
water a week and had no problems, since the problems I change some water
every other day at least while I vacuum the tank, when I'm sure things are
better I'll cut back, with the betta's (they are each in their own tank, I
change 50% while I vacuum a day, I got a smaller vacuum for them, I also got
a filter and heater on each tank, so it stays pretty clean, I also only give
a few pieces of food at a time, I've learned about feeding, I had always had
big fish like pacu or Oscars and anything that hit the water they ate, its
different with little ones.
again thanks for your help (and I agree about water changes, I see a bigger
difference with them then medication, especially with betta's)
Nikki

[IDzine01]

Often livebearers like Guppies will often do better with salt but
bettas are a little different. Salt may have it's place when treating
certain ailments but I don't believe it's necessary or even good all
the time.

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
> was heard opining:

> But I am getting a few females now, I also have seen a lot of pretty
> female betta's, I have a breeder ordering them for me, I ask one of
> the fish stores around here first and she said she can only get them
> six at a time, .........
========================
Healthy female bettas are every bit as pretty as the males as far as color
goes. If you have a Wal*Mart or Pet Supermarket in your area check them out
as they sell females at most times. I have never seen females at PetsMart,
Petland or Superpets. Now they may have them occasionally, but I've never
seen them there.

--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Nikki]

I also called petsmart and your right they said they don't get them in
*most* of the time.
I do have a Wal-Mart not to far, I have never considered getting fish there
but maybe ill try.
thanks Nikki


"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...
> Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
> > was heard opining:
>
>> But I am getting a few females now, I also have seen a lot of pretty
>> female betta's, I have a breeder ordering them for me, I ask one of
>> the fish stores around here first and she said she can only get them
>> six at a time, .........
> ========================
> Healthy female bettas are every bit as pretty as the males as far as color
> goes. If you have a Wal*Mart or Pet Supermarket in your area check them
> out as they sell females at most times. I have never seen females at
> PetsMart, Petland or Superpets. Now they may have them occasionally, but
> I've never seen them there.
>
> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://tinyurl.com/9do58
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
>
>
>
>

[Tynk]

Hey Christie..


IDzine01 wrote:
> Often livebearers like Guppies will often do better with salt but
> bettas are a little different. Salt may have it's place when treating
> certain ailments but I don't believe it's necessary or even good all
> the time.

I totally agree!

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
> was heard opining:

> I also called petsmart and your right they said they don't get them in
> *most* of the time.
> I do have a Wal-Mart not to far, I have never considered getting fish
> there but maybe ill try.
> thanks Nikki
=======================
Make sure you treat all WM fish for ICK. I just bought the first fish in
years at WM today. See my post above regarding calico Lionheads. They'll
be treated for ICK, then flukes. They'll be in quarantine for at least 14
to 21 days.

They had at least 6 female bettas and all looked healthy but were young and
small.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:46:22 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
> was heard opining:
>
>> I also called petsmart and your right they said they don't get them in
>> *most* of the time.
>> I do have a Wal-Mart not to far, I have never considered getting fish
>> there but maybe ill try.
>> thanks Nikki
>=======================
>Make sure you treat all WM fish for ICK. I just bought the first fish in
>years at WM today. See my post above regarding calico Lionheads. They'll
>be treated for ICK, then flukes. They'll be in quarantine for at least 14
>to 21 days.

Now there you go again, spontaneously combusting Nikki. At this rate
you're going to everyone blown up and no one to talk to.

Why are you treating your new fish for diseases that you haven't
identified?

-- Mister Gardener

[Koi-Lo]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:46:22 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>
>>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
> was heard opining:
>>
>>> I also called petsmart and your right they said they don't get them in
>>> *most* of the time.
>>> I do have a Wal-Mart not to far, I have never considered getting fish
>>> there but maybe ill try.
>>> thanks Nikki
>>=======================
>>Make sure you treat all WM fish for ICK. I just bought the first fish in
>>years at WM today. See my post above regarding calico Lionheads. They'll
>>be treated for ICK, then flukes. They'll be in quarantine for at least 14
>>to 21 days.
>
> Now there you go again, spontaneously combusting Nikki. At this rate
> you're going to everyone blown up and no one to talk to.
>
> Why are you treating your new fish for diseases that you haven't
> identified?
============================
Because there were several tanks of fish there crawling with ICK. There was
no way these GF weren't exposed, even though they were only in the tank
maybe an hour. No one there soaks the nets or specimen containers in
disinfectant. No one there CARES.

I've heard enough horror stories about flukes to go for the bucks to treat
them for that as well. I asked the young man there if they had medication
or salt in the water and he said they're not even allowed to feed the fish
anymore. They keep the tank-tops locked now. There were starving plecos
and puffers, dead fish floating..........

I'm not taking any chances.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:35:08 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:46:22 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
> was heard opining:

Whew. Thanks for not spontaneously combusting me. I can live to write
another message.

-- Mister Gardener

[Gill Passman]

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:46:22 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
>>> > was heard opining:
>>>
>>>> I also called petsmart and your right they said they don't get them in
>>>> *most* of the time.
>>>> I do have a Wal-Mart not to far, I have never considered getting fish
>>>> there but maybe ill try.
>>>> thanks Nikki
>>>
>>> =======================
>>> Make sure you treat all WM fish for ICK. I just bought the first
>>> fish in
>>> years at WM today. See my post above regarding calico Lionheads.
>>> They'll
>>> be treated for ICK, then flukes. They'll be in quarantine for at
>>> least 14
>>> to 21 days.
>>
>>
>> Now there you go again, spontaneously combusting Nikki. At this rate
>> you're going to everyone blown up and no one to talk to.
>>
>> Why are you treating your new fish for diseases that you haven't
>> identified?
>
> ============================
> Because there were several tanks of fish there crawling with ICK. There
> was no way these GF weren't exposed, even though they were only in the
> tank maybe an hour. No one there soaks the nets or specimen containers
> in disinfectant. No one there CARES.
>
> I've heard enough horror stories about flukes to go for the bucks to
> treat them for that as well. I asked the young man there if they had
> medication or salt in the water and he said they're not even allowed to
> feed the fish anymore. They keep the tank-tops locked now. There were
> starving plecos and puffers, dead fish floating..........
>
> I'm not taking any chances.
>

sometimes when I read these horror stories I wonder why you don't all
just walk with your feet - stores that can't sell the fish will not be
there in a short amount of time but new ones will come that satisify the
market for good quality fish because if they don't they will fail as
well....everytime even one of you buys fish from one of these places,
for whatever reasons, it reinforces their policy of not caring for fish
not mattering - people will buy them anyway....

Now I'm going to duck again - as NetMax so elequently put in a recent
post - Gill Passman "hit and run"....

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Gill Passman> at
> was heard opining:

> Koi-Lo wrote:
>> Because there were several tanks of fish there crawling with ICK. There
>> was no way these GF weren't exposed, even though they were
>> only in the tank maybe an hour. No one there soaks the nets or
>> specimen containers in disinfectant. No one there CARES.
>>
>> I've heard enough horror stories about flukes to go for the bucks to
>> treat them for that as well. I asked the young man there if they had
>> medication or salt in the water and he said they're not even allowed
>> to feed the fish anymore. They keep the tank-tops locked now. There were
>> starving plecos and puffers, dead fish floating..........
>>
>> I'm not taking any chances.
======================
>
> sometimes when I read these horror stories I wonder why you don't all
> just walk with your feet - stores that can't sell the fish will not be
> there in a short amount of time but new ones will come that satisify
> the market for good quality fish because if they don't they will fail
> as well....everytime even one of you buys fish from one of these
> places, for whatever reasons, it reinforces their policy of not caring for
> fish not mattering - people will buy them anyway....

I've been looking for calico lionheads since last October. None of the
stores here get them in. I was getting desperate enough to consider
ordering them online. I seldom buy anything online. And suddenly there
they were - right before my very eyes! Nice smooth rounded backs, nice
tails, healthy looking (they just arrived), active, nicely marked... I
weakened and had to have 4 of them. After they settled down I fed them some
shrimp pellets and they scarffed them up. :-) So far so good.


> Now I'm going to duck again - as NetMax so elequently put in a recent
> post - Gill Passman "hit and run"....
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 23:49:17 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> "Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:46:22 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
>>>> > was heard opining:
>>>>
>>>>> I also called petsmart and your right they said they don't get them in
>>>>> *most* of the time.
>>>>> I do have a Wal-Mart not to far, I have never considered getting fish
>>>>> there but maybe ill try.
>>>>> thanks Nikki
>>>>
>>>> =======================
>>>> Make sure you treat all WM fish for ICK. I just bought the first
>>>> fish in
>>>> years at WM today. See my post above regarding calico Lionheads.
>>>> They'll
>>>> be treated for ICK, then flukes. They'll be in quarantine for at
>>>> least 14
>>>> to 21 days.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now there you go again, spontaneously combusting Nikki. At this rate
>>> you're going to everyone blown up and no one to talk to.
>>>
>>> Why are you treating your new fish for diseases that you haven't
>>> identified?
>>
>> ============================
>> Because there were several tanks of fish there crawling with ICK. There
>> was no way these GF weren't exposed, even though they were only in the
>> tank maybe an hour. No one there soaks the nets or specimen containers
>> in disinfectant. No one there CARES.
>>
>> I've heard enough horror stories about flukes to go for the bucks to
>> treat them for that as well. I asked the young man there if they had
>> medication or salt in the water and he said they're not even allowed to
>> feed the fish anymore. They keep the tank-tops locked now. There were
>> starving plecos and puffers, dead fish floating..........
>>
>> I'm not taking any chances.
>>
>
>sometimes when I read these horror stories I wonder why you don't all
>just walk with your feet - stores that can't sell the fish will not be
>there in a short amount of time but new ones will come that satisify the
>market for good quality fish because if they don't they will fail as
>well....everytime even one of you buys fish from one of these places,
>for whatever reasons, it reinforces their policy of not caring for fish
>not mattering - people will buy them anyway....
>
>Now I'm going to duck again - as NetMax so elequently put in a recent
>post - Gill Passman "hit and run"....

The lure of saving a dollar is powerful in this country, and most
likely in many other countries as well. Powerful enough that we will
purchase diseased animals and goods of questionable quality produced
by workers on the other side of the world whose wages and workplaces
are sweatshop conditions, from store employees working for barely
minimum wages who rarely speak up about the forced unpaid overtime,
missed meal breaks, little or no fringe benefits, wearing bright blue
smocks with yellow happy faces pinned to their chests - Hi, how are
you today - that will be $$ - thankyou now you have a great day NEXT?
- - but if we can save a dollar or two, it's worth it. And now that we
have spread our good fortune into a global economy, you can also
benefit from the great savings. Now, aren't you glad you lost the
revolution? Where would you be without us? Heck, even your Beatles and
Rolling Stones admit they learned their music from dirt poor
amerikans.

-- Mister Gardener

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 23:49:17 +0000, Gill Passman
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>>>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:46:22 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
> was heard opining:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I also called petsmart and your right they said they don't get them in
>>>>>>*most* of the time.
>>>>>>I do have a Wal-Mart not to far, I have never considered getting fish
>>>>>>there but maybe ill try.
>>>>>>thanks Nikki
>>>>>
>>>>>=======================
>>>>>Make sure you treat all WM fish for ICK. I just bought the first
>>>>>fish in
>>>>>years at WM today. See my post above regarding calico Lionheads.
>>>>>They'll
>>>>>be treated for ICK, then flukes. They'll be in quarantine for at
>>>>>least 14
>>>>>to 21 days.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Now there you go again, spontaneously combusting Nikki. At this rate
>>>>you're going to everyone blown up and no one to talk to.
>>>>
>>>>Why are you treating your new fish for diseases that you haven't
>>>>identified?
>>>
>>>============================
>>>Because there were several tanks of fish there crawling with ICK. There
>>>was no way these GF weren't exposed, even though they were only in the
>>>tank maybe an hour. No one there soaks the nets or specimen containers
>>>in disinfectant. No one there CARES.
>>>
>>>I've heard enough horror stories about flukes to go for the bucks to
>>>treat them for that as well. I asked the young man there if they had
>>>medication or salt in the water and he said they're not even allowed to
>>>feed the fish anymore. They keep the tank-tops locked now. There were
>>>starving plecos and puffers, dead fish floating..........
>>>
>>>I'm not taking any chances.
>>>
>>
>>sometimes when I read these horror stories I wonder why you don't all
>>just walk with your feet - stores that can't sell the fish will not be
>>there in a short amount of time but new ones will come that satisify the
>>market for good quality fish because if they don't they will fail as
>>well....everytime even one of you buys fish from one of these places,
>>for whatever reasons, it reinforces their policy of not caring for fish
>>not mattering - people will buy them anyway....
>>
>>Now I'm going to duck again - as NetMax so elequently put in a recent
>>post - Gill Passman "hit and run"....
>
>
> The lure of saving a dollar is powerful in this country, and most
> likely in many other countries as well. Powerful enough that we will
> purchase diseased animals and goods of questionable quality produced
> by workers on the other side of the world whose wages and workplaces
> are sweatshop conditions, from store employees working for barely
> minimum wages who rarely speak up about the forced unpaid overtime,
> missed meal breaks, little or no fringe benefits, wearing bright blue
> smocks with yellow happy faces pinned to their chests - Hi, how are
> you today - that will be $$ - thankyou now you have a great day NEXT?
> - - but if we can save a dollar or two, it's worth it. And now that we
> have spread our good fortune into a global economy, you can also
> benefit from the great savings. Now, aren't you glad you lost the
> revolution? Where would you be without us? Heck, even your Beatles and
> Rolling Stones admit they learned their music from dirt poor
> amerikans.
>
> -- Mister Gardener

I rather think you are trying to flame me here...and I will not
rise...revolution - what revolution??? Us Brits have never done this
stuff - half arsed attempt at a civil war many centuries ago - chopped
off the head of the king...waited a while and then crowned his son. We
just let go of a troublesome colony...hey, Canada is still part of the
"Commonwealth" and we all get on fine...Nuff said (and I am tongue in
cheek so need not get patriotic responses)...

Yeah, right, everything is about the saved pound or dollar...but
sometimes things are more important...I want to buy relatively healthy
fish...doesn't always happen but the legislation in place here makes it
more likely than not - otherwise these places get reported and get shut
down....Don't knock it....it's what all you guys really want in your
country...

As for exploitation - where were your jeans or trainers manufactured????
- sorry, woops, no flame war or off-topic stuff here....forget I typed
this....

Gill

[Koi-Lo]

Moments before spontaneously combusting <Mr. Gardener> at
> was heard opining:

> The lure of saving a dollar is powerful in this country, and most
> likely in many other countries as well. Powerful enough that we will
> purchase diseased animals and goods of questionable quality produced
> by workers on the other side of the world whose wages and workplaces
> are sweatshop conditions, from store employees working for barely
> minimum wages who rarely speak up about the forced unpaid overtime,
> missed meal breaks, little or no fringe benefits, wearing bright blue
> smocks with yellow happy faces pinned to their chests

These employees don't care because they're not there very long. I seldom
see the same faces in any dept. or at the registers. The turnover must be
90% or better. They need to get Unions in some of these places.

- Hi, how are
> you today - that will be $$ - thankyou now you have a great day NEXT?
> - - but if we can save a dollar or two, it's worth it.

It's MORE than a dollar or two. You can't beat WM's prices across the board
*and* you can get everything in the one store making shopping easy and fast.
That's the main reason we shop there.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Nikki]

wow, were did this post go
all I know is I did not buy, treat, post, nor was I patriotic, at least not
today..
hope you all have a good night....I have had a bad one, I almost fried one
of my betta's
the heater was on the same temp for some time, always at 80-82, I came home
tonight and it was stuck on, needless to say I threw it away but the temp in
the tank was nearly 98 degree's, betta was quite mad and floating, I took
him out and put him in water that was 78 degree's and cooled the tank down,
changed the heater, I put him back in his tank, he don't look great but he
don't look dead no more either so who knows, I'm going to hope he makes it,
I feel real bad about it, the heater was a few years old so maybe it
broke....
o-well I'm going to go lay down, my baby has a high fever *this weather in
pgh pa is horrible, 60 degrees one day and 20 degrees the next*
Nikki


"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:46:22 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>
>>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
> was heard opining:
>>
>>> I also called petsmart and your right they said they don't get them in
>>> *most* of the time.
>>> I do have a Wal-Mart not to far, I have never considered getting fish
>>> there but maybe ill try.
>>> thanks Nikki
>>=======================
>>Make sure you treat all WM fish for ICK. I just bought the first fish in
>>years at WM today. See my post above regarding calico Lionheads. They'll
>>be treated for ICK, then flukes. They'll be in quarantine for at least 14
>>to 21 days.
>
> Now there you go again, spontaneously combusting Nikki. At this rate
> you're going to everyone blown up and no one to talk to.
>
> Why are you treating your new fish for diseases that you haven't
> identified?
>
> -- Mister Gardener

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.
Koi-Lo wrote:
> Moments before spontaneously combusting <Mr. Gardener> at
> > was heard opining:
>
>> The lure of saving a dollar is powerful in this country, and most
>> likely in many other countries as well. Powerful enough that we will
>> purchase diseased animals and goods of questionable quality produced
>> by workers on the other side of the world whose wages and workplaces
>> are sweatshop conditions, from store employees working for barely
>> minimum wages who rarely speak up about the forced unpaid overtime,
>> missed meal breaks, little or no fringe benefits, wearing bright blue
>> smocks with yellow happy faces pinned to their chests
>
> These employees don't care because they're not there very long. I
> seldom see the same faces in any dept. or at the registers. The
> turnover must be 90% or better. They need to get Unions in some of
> these places.
>
> - Hi, how are
>> you today - that will be $$ - thankyou now you have a great day NEXT?
>> - - but if we can save a dollar or two, it's worth it.
>
> It's MORE than a dollar or two. You can't beat WM's prices across
> the board *and* you can get everything in the one store making
> shopping easy and fast. That's the main reason we shop there.

I agree with koi-lo. I know a lot of friends of mine tell me not to shop at
wal**art because they strangle the mom and pop stores which are more
american (i.e. they work in america and provide more american products) but
quite frankly I see this kind of talk much like my older friend jeanette
telling me I've got to only get fresh organic produce and cook all of my
meals from scratch. It just isn't practical and quite frankly jeanette's
advice is way too expensive to act on. Only the rich can afford to eat truly
healthily. I am so cynical about the health food industries prices I scoff
whenever jeanette tells me "like it is", quite frankly. Practically speaking
it is true - wal**art is just plain the best store to shop at, there are una
cceptable drawbacks to everything else. Good luck and later!

[LaieTechie]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:56:42 -0500, Nikki wrote:

> When I change their water daily I either change 100% or 50% depending,

You should only rarely do 100% water changes. By replacing all the water,
you will cause new tank syndrome. Of course, the medications you're
adding might already be killing the good microbes along with the bad.

You may want to add aquarium or sea salt to your tank unless it's planted.
The added salinity will definitely help against ich.

hth,
Laie Techie

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 00:36:13 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>
>I rather think you are trying to flame me here...and I will not
>rise...revolution - what revolution??? Us Brits have never done this
>stuff - half arsed attempt at a civil war many centuries ago - chopped
>off the head of the king...waited a while and then crowned his son. We
>just let go of a troublesome colony...hey, Canada is still part of the
>"Commonwealth" and we all get on fine...Nuff said (and I am tongue in
>cheek so need not get patriotic responses)...
>
>Yeah, right, everything is about the saved pound or dollar...but
>sometimes things are more important...I want to buy relatively healthy
>fish...doesn't always happen but the legislation in place here makes it
>more likely than not - otherwise these places get reported and get shut
>down....Don't knock it....it's what all you guys really want in your
>country...
>
>As for exploitation - where were your jeans or trainers manufactured????
>- sorry, woops, no flame war or off-topic stuff here....forget I typed
>this....
>
>Gill
We're all part of this globalized consumerism, whether we want to be
or not. No flame intended, purely in jest. You did, however, give me
an idea for my next library visit, and that is to see what I can find
in the British history books about the amerikan revolution. Time to
take this topic off the fish board and get back to business.

I stopped in at Petco yesterday while I was in the city, bought a case
of cat food for a new feline in my home that refuses to eat the dry
food we serve our other cats. He'll learn by the time he finishes this
case. I wandered into the fish department, can never resist, and
browsed the tanks. They looked good, the fish looked really good. In
fact, I saw a tank of very nice looking angels . . . but as I looked
further, I noted that there were dozens of bags of fish hanging in the
tanks acclimating . . . delivery day . . . bad time to buy new fish.
Next time I go there, when the skinny teenager asks if he can help me,
maybe I'll strike up a conversation with him and see just what he
knows and how he cares for the fish. Instead of politely brushing him
off or intentionally asking him a difficult question that I know will
stymie him.

-- Mister Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 23:33:40 -0500, "Nikki"
> wrote:

>the heater was on the same temp for some time, always at 80-82, I came home
>tonight and it was stuck on, needless to say I threw it away but the temp in
>the tank was nearly 98 degree's, betta was quite mad and floating, I took
>him out and put him in water that was 78 degree's and cooled the tank down,
>changed the heater, I put him back in his tank, he don't look great but he
>don't look dead no more either so who knows, I'm going to hope he makes it,
>I feel real bad about it, the heater was a few years old so maybe it
>broke...

Wow. I've never had a heater go on me, but I've read about it. Hope
your betta makes it. And it's fortunate that you had an extra heater
on hand.

-- Mister Gardener

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 23:33:40 -0500, "Nikki"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>the heater was on the same temp for some time, always at 80-82, I came home
>>tonight and it was stuck on, needless to say I threw it away but the temp in
>>the tank was nearly 98 degree's, betta was quite mad and floating, I took
>>him out and put him in water that was 78 degree's and cooled the tank down,
>>changed the heater, I put him back in his tank, he don't look great but he
>>don't look dead no more either so who knows, I'm going to hope he makes it,
>>I feel real bad about it, the heater was a few years old so maybe it
>>broke...
>
>
> Wow. I've never had a heater go on me, but I've read about it. Hope
> your betta makes it. And it's fortunate that you had an extra heater
> on hand.
>
> -- Mister Gardener

I have...not nice if you don't catch it - we lost all the fish in a 15
gall after the heater failed :-( and lost a betta with a jammed heater...

Just as an aside - one thing to watch for with over heated water is
oxygen depletion...I use air pumps in my tanks in the summer if it gets
too warm...

Gill

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 12:12:50 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Just as an aside - one thing to watch for with over heated water is
>oxygen depletion...I use air pumps in my tanks in the summer if it gets
>too warm...
>
>Gill

Good point. One of the people living in my house has a medical
condition that requires we keep the place air conditioned to around
72F, 22C, in the summer, which also benefits the fish. As far north as
we live, we still get some very warm temperatures during both summer
weeks.

-- Mister Gardener

[Nikki]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 00:36:13 +0000, Gill Passman
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>I rather think you are trying to flame me here...and I will not
>>rise...revolution - what revolution??? Us Brits have never done this
>>stuff - half arsed attempt at a civil war many centuries ago - chopped
>>off the head of the king...waited a while and then crowned his son. We
>>just let go of a troublesome colony...hey, Canada is still part of the
>>"Commonwealth" and we all get on fine...Nuff said (and I am tongue in
>>cheek so need not get patriotic responses)...
>>
>>Yeah, right, everything is about the saved pound or dollar...but
>>sometimes things are more important...I want to buy relatively healthy
>>fish...doesn't always happen but the legislation in place here makes it
>>more likely than not - otherwise these places get reported and get shut
>>down....Don't knock it....it's what all you guys really want in your
>>country...
>>
>>As for exploitation - where were your jeans or trainers manufactured????
>>- sorry, woops, no flame war or off-topic stuff here....forget I typed
>>this....
>>
>>Gill
> We're all part of this globalized consumerism, whether we want to be
> or not. No flame intended, purely in jest. You did, however, give me
> an idea for my next library visit, and that is to see what I can find
> in the British history books about the amerikan revolution. Time to
> take this topic off the fish board and get back to business.
>
> I stopped in at Petco yesterday while I was in the city, bought a case
> of cat food for a new feline in my home that refuses to eat the dry
> food we serve our other cats. He'll learn by the time he finishes this
> case. I wandered into the fish department, can never resist, and
> browsed the tanks. They looked good, the fish looked really good. In
> fact, I saw a tank of very nice looking angels . . . but as I looked
> further, I noted that there were dozens of bags of fish hanging in the
> tanks acclimating . . . delivery day . . . bad time to buy new fish.
> Next time I go there, when the skinny teenager asks if he can help me,
> maybe I'll strike up a conversation with him and see just what he
> knows and how he cares for the fish. Instead of politely brushing him
> off or intentionally asking him a difficult question that I know will
> stymie him.
>
> -- Mister Gardener

--off topic--- just for a sec
My mom has a Myers puma (spelling is wrong, but that's how its said) neat
cat
they are breed in Maryland, anyhow, she had that same problem, it would
starve before eating dry food, she mixed wet with dry for a few weeks and
weaned, finally it ate dry food.
---back on topic----
They have petco's every where I guess, huh, I got one here also, we always
have teens in ours walking around confused instead of working maybe its
their policy
Nikki

[Nikki]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 12:12:50 +0000, Gill Passman
> > wrote:
>
>>Just as an aside - one thing to watch for with over heated water is
>>oxygen depletion...I use air pumps in my tanks in the summer if it gets
>>too warm...
>>
>>Gill

I have heard you guys say that, after cooling the water a bit i did put an
extra air stone in there, he is still alive, which i feel so much better
about, but not really eating, and sitting still more then normal but if he
sees me coming he still comes over so i guess that is a good sign.



> Good point. One of the people living in my house has a medical
> condition that requires we keep the place air conditioned to around
> 72F, 22C, in the summer, which also benefits the fish. As far north as
> we live, we still get some very warm temperatures during both summer
> weeks.
>
> -- Mister Gardener

I'm north also, up in PA, we can go in the 90's in sumer, and below zero in
the winter, not to often these days, uaualy 20's. We have a air conditioner
because of my son luke, he is six and has asthma pretty bad, he is on a
breathing machine four times a day during winter, not to bad in the sumer,
but the air helps.
Nik

[Nikki]

Its a betta, tank is only between 3-4 gl, I am doing big water changes at
the moment because their tail/fin are in bad shape, i also had this problem
with two other betta's (ich) and problems with their tail/fin and by
changing water every day, they were back to being healthy in a couple weeks
and are now fine, they are not in perminit tanks at this time, its much
eaiser to treat in the tanks they are in now.
Nikki


"LaieTechie" > wrote in message
news:pan.2006.03.18.08.04.35.422010@win_remove_get _nospam_solutions.com...
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:56:42 -0500, Nikki wrote:
>
>> When I change their water daily I either change 100% or 50% depending,
>
> You should only rarely do 100% water changes. By replacing all the water,
> you will cause new tank syndrome. Of course, the medications you're
> adding might already be killing the good microbes along with the bad.
>
> You may want to add aquarium or sea salt to your tank unless it's planted.
> The added salinity will definitely help against ich.
>
> hth,
> Laie Techie
>

[Tynk]

Nikki wrote:
> wow, were did this post go
> all I know is I did not buy, treat, post, nor was I patriotic, at least not
> today..
> hope you all have a good night....I have had a bad one, I almost fried one
> of my betta's

> changed the heater, I put him back in his tank, he don't look great but he
> don't look dead no more either so who knows, I'm going to hope he makes it,
> I feel real bad about it, the heater was a few years old so maybe it
> broke....
> o-well I'm going to go lay down, my baby has a high fever *this weather in
> pgh pa is horrible, 60 degrees one day and 20 degrees the next*
> Nikki
>
>
> "Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:46:22 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
> > was heard opining:
> >>
> >>> I also called petsmart and your right they said they don't get them in
> >>> *most* of the time.
> >>> I do have a Wal-Mart not to far, I have never considered getting fish
> >>> there but maybe ill try.
> >>> thanks Nikki
> >>=======================
> >>Make sure you treat all WM fish for ICK. I just bought the first fish in
> >>years at WM today. See my post above regarding calico Lionheads. They'll
> >>be treated for ICK, then flukes. They'll be in quarantine for at least 14
> >>to 21 days.
> >
> > Now there you go again, spontaneously combusting Nikki. At this rate
> > you're going to everyone blown up and no one to talk to.
> >
> > Why are you treating your new fish for diseases that you haven't
> > identified?
> >
> > -- Mister Gardener
Hi Nikki

> the heater was on the same temp for some time, always at 80-82, I came home
> tonight and it was stuck on, needless to say I threw it away but the temp in
> the tank was nearly 98 degree's, betta was quite mad and floating, I took
> him out and put him in water that was 78 degree's and cooled the tank down,

Um, I sure hope you didn't just add him right away to that 78*f water
after being in 98* water.

[Altum]

LaieTechie wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:56:42 -0500, Nikki wrote:
>
>> When I change their water daily I either change 100% or 50% depending,
>
> You should only rarely do 100% water changes. By replacing all the water,
> you will cause new tank syndrome. Of course, the medications you're
> adding might already be killing the good microbes along with the bad.
>
> You may want to add aquarium or sea salt to your tank unless it's planted.
> The added salinity will definitely help against ich.
>
> hth,
> Laie Techie
>
I disagree. Nitrifying bacteria mostly adhere to solid surfaces like
plants glass, and gravel. You're not going to trigger a cycle by
leaving the filter, gravel, and decorations alone and changing all the
water. Have you ever actually changed 100% of the water without
touching anything and tested for ammonia? I have and found none.

There might be a bit of clouding, but that's not "new tank syndrome."
Perhaps that's what confused you. 100% water changes are good for sick
fish as long as water parameters are reasonably close.

Bettas don't particularly like salt either. Nikki and I have posted
quite a bit about this. Have a look at Nikki's earlier threads.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Altum]

Nikki wrote:
> "IDzine01" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> There is a difference between fin loss and fin rot but it isn't always
>> very obvious how to tell them apart. Fin rot is a bacterial infection
>> and often occurs due to poor water conditions. Bettas are extremely
>> susceptible to it and it's not uncommon for even seasoned veterans to
>> have to deal with it from time to time. General fin loss or tearing
>> (pin holes too) may occur if your betta snags his fins on something or
>> from flaring. Fin rot can often be identified by black or bloodied fin
>> tips. Often chunks of fins will just slough off. They are often
>> characteristically tattered at the ends as well. The signs of fin rot
>> may be less obvious with darker colored or red bettas.
>>
>> http://www.nippyfish.net/finlossfinrot.html
>>
> Ok, let me give you a quick update, he (Mr. blue betta) is swimming a bit
> today, I was surprised after yesterday, it has also made it a little easier
> to see all the fins, it was hard when he was sitting at the bottom of the
> tank. I think they are just pinholes, if you took the pinholes away his
> tail/fin would look completely normal, no snags, rips, or anything along
> those lines, just pinholes. I see what you are saying now (the difference
> between rot/pinholes). Another good thing is this morning he took a few
> pieces of food, I have had him for a week, and he was in a cup at the store,
> so I don't know that he could of got snagged on anything, but the water in
> the cup had a film on top, not sure from what, maybe that has something to
> do with it.
> He is not as active as the others, however he does not look like he might
> die at any moment as he did yesterday.
> We had been talking about ich, I have a question, I know you can not kill it
> when its on the fish, the meds kill it when it falls off the fish and is in
> the rocks, if I understand right you can kill ich with high temps, so when
> it falls off the betta, and is in the rocks, could you not empty out the
> tank and boil the rocks, which would kill it or at least lessen the time you
> need to use the medication, is that right or not, I see where it would not
> be reasonable to do this in a big tank with a lot of stuff in it, but in a
> QT ???
> Let me know if you have a minute
> Thanks for the help Nikki

At 82F, a display tank with no fish is ich-free after about four days -
seven at the outside. The swimming parasites (tomites) die in a couple
of days without a fish host. You kill ich in a Q-tank by letting it dry
completely. I don't know about boiling - I've never read anything one
way or the other. I'd be more inclined to use 5% bleach, dechlorinate,
and dry everything.

Supposedly, one of the ways of treating ich without medicine is to
transfer the fish from tank to tank, moving them daily. As they are
shed the cysts are left behind, at the bottom of the tank. The
procedure is to remove all the fish to the first QT tank at 80F. After
a day, you move them to a second warmed QT and sterilize the first. The
next day, you move the fish to the clean tank and disinfect the other.
You're supposed to move the fish back and forth for seven days and then
they can go home.

I've never tried it because my QT tank is usually not big enough for all
the fish in my display tank. It also sounds stressful for both me and
the fish. And somehow you'd have to try to keep the main tank filter
alive with ammonia.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Altum]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>> Whether or not you finish the treatment of antibiotics is sort of up to
>>> you. Antibiotics should be followed through because under-medicating or
>>> shortening the course may lead to antibiotic-resistant bacteria. On the
>>> other hand, unnecessary treatment may be harmful to your betta.
>> I completely agree with you about antibiotics. With only one dose, I'd
>> discontinue treatment. The worst thing for resistance seems to be
>> stopping after three or four days instead of going for a full course of
>> seven to ten days. Even a full course of antibiotics can leave some
>> resistant bacteria, which is why they should be a last resort if you
>> choose to use them at all.
>
> No. Untergasser says antibiotics should only be used as a last
> resort with an irreplacable fish (think $25K koi) in a glass
> only tank. You absolutley must finish the course of treatment
> if started. These days it's very strongly recommended a test
> be done on the cultured big to see if the antibiotic has
> resistance to the bug. If it does not they WILL be dead at
> the end of the treatment.
>
> Non antibiotic bacteriocides can be fond at:
>
> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/alternatives/

Not quite. Even if a test is done on cultured bacteria and a good
antibiotic identified, there is no guarantee of 100% death. In fact,
it's wildly improbable. That's the whole underlying problem with
antibiotics. A culture is only a statistical sample. The hope is that
the host immune system will kill the few resistant bacteria that remain
after the drug kills 99.999% (or whatever proportion) of the bacteria.
Fortunately, it usually works.

One dose of antibiotics almost never causes resistance, which is why I
told Nikki to stop using the meds. Resistant bacteria tend to grow more
slowly than normal ones. They have extra DNA to replicate and more
proteins to manufacture as they grow. When many non-resistant bacteria
are left after a single dose of antibiotic, they rapidly outgrow the
resistant ones and the population stays non-resistant. This has been
well-documented in the bacteriological and cell biology literature.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:54:38 GMT, Altum >
wrote:


>Supposedly, one of the ways of treating ich without medicine is to
>transfer the fish from tank to tank, moving them daily. As they are
>shed the cysts are left behind, at the bottom of the tank. The
>procedure is to remove all the fish to the first QT tank at 80F. After
>a day, you move them to a second warmed QT and sterilize the first. The
>next day, you move the fish to the clean tank and disinfect the other.
>You're supposed to move the fish back and forth for seven days and then
>they can go home.
>
>I've never tried it because my QT tank is usually not big enough for all
>the fish in my display tank. It also sounds stressful for both me and
>the fish. And somehow you'd have to try to keep the main tank filter
>alive with ammonia.

I've never tried it either, because I never heard of it until a couple
of weeks ago right here, where it took about a dozen patient writers
to explain it to me. The multiple bucket method. I envision doing it
with multiple 5 gallon white buckets with the Tru Value Hardware logo
on the sides, of which I seem to have an endless supply. It looks like
work for me, stress for the fish, drinking stations for the dogs and
entertainment for the cats. This is one of those aquarium treatments
where I am perfectly happy with the chemical approach, to heck with
the all natural solution.


-- Mister Gardener

[Nikki]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Nikki wrote:
>> wow, were did this post go
>> all I know is I did not buy, treat, post, nor was I patriotic, at least
>> not
>> today..
>> hope you all have a good night....I have had a bad one, I almost fried
>> one
>> of my betta's
>
>> changed the heater, I put him back in his tank, he don't look great but
>> he
>> don't look dead no more either so who knows, I'm going to hope he makes
>> it,
>> I feel real bad about it, the heater was a few years old so maybe it
>> broke....
>> o-well I'm going to go lay down, my baby has a high fever *this weather
>> in
>> pgh pa is horrible, 60 degrees one day and 20 degrees the next*
>> Nikki
>>
>>
>> "Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 16:46:22 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>Moments before spontaneously combusting <Nikki> at
>> > was heard opining:
>> >>
>> >>> I also called petsmart and your right they said they don't get them
>> >>> in
>> >>> *most* of the time.
>> >>> I do have a Wal-Mart not to far, I have never considered getting fish
>> >>> there but maybe ill try.
>> >>> thanks Nikki
>> >>=======================
>> >>Make sure you treat all WM fish for ICK. I just bought the first fish
>> >>in
>> >>years at WM today. See my post above regarding calico Lionheads.
>> >>They'll
>> >>be treated for ICK, then flukes. They'll be in quarantine for at least
>> >>14
>> >>to 21 days.
>> >
>> > Now there you go again, spontaneously combusting Nikki. At this rate
>> > you're going to everyone blown up and no one to talk to.
>> >
>> > Why are you treating your new fish for diseases that you haven't
>> > identified?
>> >
>> > -- Mister Gardener
> Hi Nikki
>
>> the heater was on the same temp for some time, always at 80-82, I came
>> home
>> tonight and it was stuck on, needless to say I threw it away but the temp
>> in
>> the tank was nearly 98 degree's, betta was quite mad and floating, I took
>> him out and put him in water that was 78 degree's and cooled the tank
>> down,
>
> Um, I sure hope you didn't just add him right away to that 78*f water
> after being in 98* water.

No i first put him in a container, i did not end up puting him back in his
tank for several hours, but his tank is on 78, i took it down slowly
(probably not slowing enough but he was about dead when i pulled him out) i
added some cooler water every 15 min and when it got to 78 i let him stay
there for a while, then he went back in his tank, the first drop was a bit
because i had to get him out of the 100 degree water, i was worried about
shock but at that point he was dying.
Nik
even though i replaced the heater i keep checking it now, along with all the
other tanks, driving me crazy.

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:39:38 -0500, "Nikki"
> wrote:


>No i first put him in a container, i did not end up puting him back in his
>tank for several hours, but his tank is on 78, i took it down slowly
>(probably not slowing enough but he was about dead when i pulled him out) i
>added some cooler water every 15 min and when it got to 78 i let him stay
>there for a while, then he went back in his tank, the first drop was a bit
>because i had to get him out of the 100 degree water, i was worried about
>shock but at that point he was dying.
>Nik
>even though i replaced the heater i keep checking it now, along with all the
>other tanks, driving me crazy.
>
I would have done the same. Perhaps a more rapid temperature change
than the experts recommend, but at 100 degrees, he was half poached.
You were facing a crisis, and you thought it through quickly with the
knowledge you had available, and you acted rather than freeze up in
analysis paralysis. I hope he pulls through.

-- Mister Gardener

[Nikki]

"Altum" > wrote in message
. com...
> LaieTechie wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:56:42 -0500, Nikki wrote:
>>
>>> When I change their water daily I either change 100% or 50% depending,
>>
>> You should only rarely do 100% water changes. By replacing all the
>> water,
>> you will cause new tank syndrome. Of course, the medications you're
>> adding might already be killing the good microbes along with the bad.
>>
>> You may want to add aquarium or sea salt to your tank unless it's
>> planted.
>> The added salinity will definitely help against ich.
>>
>> hth,
>> Laie Techie
>>
> I disagree. Nitrifying bacteria mostly adhere to solid surfaces like
> plants glass, and gravel. You're not going to trigger a cycle by leaving
> the filter, gravel, and decorations alone and changing all the water.
> Have you ever actually changed 100% of the water without touching anything
> and tested for ammonia? I have and found none.
>
> There might be a bit of clouding, but that's not "new tank syndrome."
> Perhaps that's what confused you. 100% water changes are good for sick
> fish as long as water parameters are reasonably close.
>
> Bettas don't particularly like salt either. Nikki and I have posted quite
> a bit about this. Have a look at Nikki's earlier threads.
>

And all the betta's are looking healthy now, I have also checked my water
and have had no problems with it, i leave the filter & rocks in place. and
the red ones are even growing back their fins/tail and they look great, its
only been a few days since i started with the blue one but he is now
swimming around and eating again, so i think this is the right way to do
things. Also with the water being clean i have had no problems at all with
fungus, and both red betta's fins were injured.
I am doing the every third day with the ich treatment for two weeks but i
have not seen it since the second day. so i'm going to stick to this, it has
worked.
thanks Nik

--
> Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
> Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Mr. Gardener]

>On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:39:38 -0500, "Nikki"
> wrote:
>
>
>>No i first put him in a container, i did not end up puting him back in his
>>tank for several hours, but his tank is on 78, i took it down slowly
>>(probably not slowing enough but he was about dead when i pulled him out) i
>>added some cooler water every 15 min and when it got to 78 i let him stay
>>there for a while, then he went back in his tank, the first drop was a bit
>>because i had to get him out of the 100 degree water, i was worried about
>>shock but at that point he was dying.
>>Nik
>>even though i replaced the heater i keep checking it now, along with all the
>>other tanks, driving me crazy.

Calling all hardware experts! Would Nikki's hot water problem have
been any less critical if she had used two heaters in her tank, each
rated for something less that the tank's capacity?

-- Mister Gardener

[Nikki]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:39:38 -0500, "Nikki"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>No i first put him in a container, i did not end up puting him back in his
>>tank for several hours, but his tank is on 78, i took it down slowly
>>(probably not slowing enough but he was about dead when i pulled him out)
>>i
>>added some cooler water every 15 min and when it got to 78 i let him stay
>>there for a while, then he went back in his tank, the first drop was a bit
>>because i had to get him out of the 100 degree water, i was worried about
>>shock but at that point he was dying.
>>Nik
>>even though i replaced the heater i keep checking it now, along with all
>>the
>>other tanks, driving me crazy.
>>
> I would have done the same. Perhaps a more rapid temperature change
> than the experts recommend, but at 100 degrees, he was half poached.
> You were facing a crisis, and you thought it through quickly with the
> knowledge you had available, and you acted rather than freeze up in
> analysis paralysis. I hope he pulls through.
>
> -- Mister Gardener

He is a tuff little betta, my first temp drop was big then i took him down
slower, but yes he was going to die, he was on his side i thought he was
dead, i was suprised, so the first drop was 10-15 degree drop, then i took
him down to his normal temp, i did every 15 minutes and i think it should be
every hour but he would not of made it that long, he is alive not moving
around a lot, i have got him to take a couple bits of betta food, i figure
by tomorro i will see what direction he will go in.
Nik

[Nikki]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:54:38 GMT, Altum >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Supposedly, one of the ways of treating ich without medicine is to
>>transfer the fish from tank to tank, moving them daily. As they are
>>shed the cysts are left behind, at the bottom of the tank. The
>>procedure is to remove all the fish to the first QT tank at 80F. After
>>a day, you move them to a second warmed QT and sterilize the first. The
>>next day, you move the fish to the clean tank and disinfect the other.
>>You're supposed to move the fish back and forth for seven days and then
>>they can go home.
>>
>>I've never tried it because my QT tank is usually not big enough for all
>>the fish in my display tank. It also sounds stressful for both me and
>>the fish. And somehow you'd have to try to keep the main tank filter
>>alive with ammonia.
>
> I've never tried it either, because I never heard of it until a couple
> of weeks ago right here, where it took about a dozen patient writers
> to explain it to me. The multiple bucket method. I envision doing it
> with multiple 5 gallon white buckets with the Tru Value Hardware logo
> on the sides, of which I seem to have an endless supply. It looks like
> work for me, stress for the fish, drinking stations for the dogs and
> entertainment for the cats. This is one of those aquarium treatments
> where I am perfectly happy with the chemical approach, to heck with
> the all natural solution.
>
>
> -- Mister Gardener


What i was wondering was if the tank is small enough like 5 gl, (now im not
sure because of the filter i dont know if ich gets in there) but when the
ich falls from the fish 2-3rd day, from what i heard you guys say its in the
rocks, could you not put the fish (betta) in a containter and empty out tank
and boil rocks since ich dies in high temps (i think it does) that is what i
was trying to ask, i see where this would be crazy in a big tank just to
treat ich when you could just use meds, but in a small tank, it was just a
thought, Nikki

PS: what does every one else use for nets and stuff between tanks, so ich
does not spread.

[Gill Passman]

Mr. Gardener wrote:
>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:39:38 -0500, "Nikki"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>No i first put him in a container, i did not end up puting him back in his
>>>tank for several hours, but his tank is on 78, i took it down slowly
>>>(probably not slowing enough but he was about dead when i pulled him out) i
>>>added some cooler water every 15 min and when it got to 78 i let him stay
>>>there for a while, then he went back in his tank, the first drop was a bit
>>>because i had to get him out of the 100 degree water, i was worried about
>>>shock but at that point he was dying.
>>>Nik
>>>even though i replaced the heater i keep checking it now, along with all the
>>>other tanks, driving me crazy.
>
>
> Calling all hardware experts! Would Nikki's hot water problem have
> been any less critical if she had used two heaters in her tank, each
> rated for something less that the tank's capacity?
>
> -- Mister Gardener

I'm not a hardware expert but no, a redudant heater would not make any
difference in this case - in the case of a stuck thermostat the broken
heater stays on continuously heating the water - a redundant heater if
working would not cut in - if both were broken it would be even
worse...a redundant heater would only be beneficial if it was the other
way round - ie. the broken heater was not heating the water...

In terms of cooling a tank - which I've needed to do in the summer,
usually I go "lights out" - they add to the heat...I leave the hood ajar
to allow for condensation and gradually change the water in the tank
over a number of hours - I add unheated treated tap water very
gradually...it is less stress for the fish than moving them and the temp
change is slow - it takes patience but doesn't everything in this hobby
of ours :-)

Gill

[Gill Passman]

Nikki wrote:
> "Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:54:38 GMT, Altum >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Supposedly, one of the ways of treating ich without medicine is to
>>>transfer the fish from tank to tank, moving them daily. As they are
>>>shed the cysts are left behind, at the bottom of the tank. The
>>>procedure is to remove all the fish to the first QT tank at 80F. After
>>>a day, you move them to a second warmed QT and sterilize the first. The
>>>next day, you move the fish to the clean tank and disinfect the other.
>>>You're supposed to move the fish back and forth for seven days and then
>>>they can go home.
>>>
>>>I've never tried it because my QT tank is usually not big enough for all
>>>the fish in my display tank. It also sounds stressful for both me and
>>>the fish. And somehow you'd have to try to keep the main tank filter
>>>alive with ammonia.
>>
>>I've never tried it either, because I never heard of it until a couple
>>of weeks ago right here, where it took about a dozen patient writers
>>to explain it to me. The multiple bucket method. I envision doing it
>>with multiple 5 gallon white buckets with the Tru Value Hardware logo
>>on the sides, of which I seem to have an endless supply. It looks like
>>work for me, stress for the fish, drinking stations for the dogs and
>>entertainment for the cats. This is one of those aquarium treatments
>>where I am perfectly happy with the chemical approach, to heck with
>>the all natural solution.
>>
>>
>>-- Mister Gardener
>
>
>
> What i was wondering was if the tank is small enough like 5 gl, (now im not
> sure because of the filter i dont know if ich gets in there) but when the
> ich falls from the fish 2-3rd day, from what i heard you guys say its in the
> rocks, could you not put the fish (betta) in a containter and empty out tank
> and boil rocks since ich dies in high temps (i think it does) that is what i
> was trying to ask, i see where this would be crazy in a big tank just to
> treat ich when you could just use meds, but in a small tank, it was just a
> thought, Nikki
>
> PS: what does every one else use for nets and stuff between tanks, so ich
> does not spread.
>
>

One advocated treatment of ich (med free) is to move the fish between
bare bottomed tanks (clean fresh water each time) - the theory being
that the ich can only survive if they find a fish host...so yes,
probably in a small scale opertation you might defeat it by moving the
fish between tanks and thoroughly cleaning and sterilising the
environment - you are right though that it would not be very practical
in a large tank...

I make sure that everything is bleached (or at the very least well
rinsed in chlorinated water) when I use equipment between my tanks - I
probably should always ensure the disinfecting of the stuff (but most of
my tanks have had no additions for many, many months and the fish are
healthy - but I still should adhere to things). Stuff like gravel vacs
etc are kept for each tank - costs a bit more but stops cross infection...

Ich will spread in water but dies in air - so make sure that your
syphons and vacs are clear of water, thoroughly rinsed/disinfected
before using in another tank....nets, especially if used to remove dead
fish should be disinfected (I use bleach)...Ich can get into your tanks
even through the addition of plants or anything containing store water
(or water from an infected tank) - I usually give my plants a weak
bleach bath before moving them into another tank...

Good luck....

gill

[Nikki]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>
>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:39:38 -0500, "Nikki"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>No i first put him in a container, i did not end up puting him back in
>>>his
>>>tank for several hours, but his tank is on 78, i took it down slowly
>>>(probably not slowing enough but he was about dead when i pulled him out)
>>>i
>>>added some cooler water every 15 min and when it got to 78 i let him stay
>>>there for a while, then he went back in his tank, the first drop was a
>>>bit
>>>because i had to get him out of the 100 degree water, i was worried about
>>>shock but at that point he was dying.
>>>Nik
>>>even though i replaced the heater i keep checking it now, along with all
>>>the
>>>other tanks, driving me crazy.
>
> Calling all hardware experts! Would Nikki's hot water problem have
> been any less critical if she had used two heaters in her tank, each
> rated for something less that the tank's capacity?
>
> -- Mister Gardener

I was using a therma flow 10$ heater don't quote me but I think 55 watts,
the lowest I had, and there is about 4 gl of water in the tank.
is that what you were asking?? confused sorry to much noise at my house...
Nikki
for what its worth I just bought a few more because that one had become
touchy, so it was my fault

[Nikki]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Mr. Gardener wrote:
>>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:39:38 -0500, "Nikki"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>No i first put him in a container, i did not end up puting him back in
>>>>his tank for several hours, but his tank is on 78, i took it down
>>>>slowly (probably not slowing enough but he was about dead when i pulled
>>>>him out) i added some cooler water every 15 min and when it got to 78 i
>>>>let him stay there for a while, then he went back in his tank, the first
>>>>drop was a bit because i had to get him out of the 100 degree water, i
>>>>was worried about shock but at that point he was dying.
>>>>Nik
>>>>even though i replaced the heater i keep checking it now, along with all
>>>>the other tanks, driving me crazy.
>>
>>
>> Calling all hardware experts! Would Nikki's hot water problem have
>> been any less critical if she had used two heaters in her tank, each
>> rated for something less that the tank's capacity? -- Mister Gardener
>
> I'm not a hardware expert but no, a redudant heater would not make any
> difference in this case - in the case of a stuck thermostat the broken
> heater stays on continuously heating the water - a redundant heater if
> working would not cut in - if both were broken it would be even worse...a
> redundant heater would only be beneficial if it was the other way round -
> ie. the broken heater was not heating the water...
>
> In terms of cooling a tank - which I've needed to do in the summer,
> usually I go "lights out" - they add to the heat...I leave the hood ajar
> to allow for condensation and gradually change the water in the tank over
> a number of hours - I add unheated treated tap water very gradually...it
> is less stress for the fish than moving them and the temp change is slow -
> it takes patience but doesn't everything in this hobby of ours :-)
>
> Gill

Not in this case with it being as high as it was, but a few times i had my
tank go up to higher 80's (summer also) and i have put an ice cube in a zip
lock baggie and put it in the tank, and it has slowly took temp down, but
when i had more time.
Nikki

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:15:27 -0500, "Nikki"
> wrote:

>
>"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:54:38 GMT, Altum >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Supposedly, one of the ways of treating ich without medicine is to
>>>transfer the fish from tank to tank, moving them daily. As they are
>>>shed the cysts are left behind, at the bottom of the tank. The
>>>procedure is to remove all the fish to the first QT tank at 80F. After
>>>a day, you move them to a second warmed QT and sterilize the first. The
>>>next day, you move the fish to the clean tank and disinfect the other.
>>>You're supposed to move the fish back and forth for seven days and then
>>>they can go home.
>>>
>>>I've never tried it because my QT tank is usually not big enough for all
>>>the fish in my display tank. It also sounds stressful for both me and
>>>the fish. And somehow you'd have to try to keep the main tank filter
>>>alive with ammonia.
>>
>> I've never tried it either, because I never heard of it until a couple
>> of weeks ago right here, where it took about a dozen patient writers
>> to explain it to me. The multiple bucket method. I envision doing it
>> with multiple 5 gallon white buckets with the Tru Value Hardware logo
>> on the sides, of which I seem to have an endless supply. It looks like
>> work for me, stress for the fish, drinking stations for the dogs and
>> entertainment for the cats. This is one of those aquarium treatments
>> where I am perfectly happy with the chemical approach, to heck with
>> the all natural solution.
>>
>>
>> -- Mister Gardener
>
>
>What i was wondering was if the tank is small enough like 5 gl, (now im not
>sure because of the filter i dont know if ich gets in there) but when the
>ich falls from the fish 2-3rd day, from what i heard you guys say its in the
>rocks, could you not put the fish (betta) in a containter and empty out tank
>and boil rocks since ich dies in high temps (i think it does) that is what i
>was trying to ask, i see where this would be crazy in a big tank just to
>treat ich when you could just use meds, but in a small tank, it was just a
>thought, Nikki
>
>PS: what does every one else use for nets and stuff between tanks, so ich
>does not spread.
>
Since I've encountered ich once in my 40 years, my nets simply hang on
separate hooks where they air dry. During the very occasional times
when I'm cleaning stuff with bleach, like preparing a new tank, I'll
stick the nets in there for a few minutes. I know that I will pay for
my laziness someday, but so far, so good.

-- Mister Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:33:42 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>
>I make sure that everything is bleached (or at the very least well
>rinsed in chlorinated water) when I use equipment between my tanks - I
>probably should always ensure the disinfecting of the stuff (but most of
>my tanks have had no additions for many, many months and the fish are
>healthy - but I still should adhere to things). Stuff like gravel vacs
>etc are kept for each tank - costs a bit more but stops cross infection...
>
>Ich will spread in water but dies in air - so make sure that your
>syphons and vacs are clear of water, thoroughly rinsed/disinfected
>before using in another tank....nets, especially if used to remove dead
>fish should be disinfected (I use bleach)...Ich can get into your tanks
>even through the addition of plants or anything containing store water
>(or water from an infected tank) - I usually give my plants a weak
>bleach bath before moving them into another tank...
>
>Good luck....
>
>gill
Well, at least I've got the air drying part right.

-- Mister Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:24:49 +0000, Gill Passman
> wrote:


>change is slow - it takes patience but doesn't everything in this hobby
>of ours :-)
>
>Gill

Yes. In fact, it is beginning to take much longer to read the messages
on rafm, so many people contributing, everyone playing nice . . .

-- Mister Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:35:30 -0500, "Nikki"
> wrote:

>I was using a therma flow 10$ heater don't quote me but I think 55 watts,
>the lowest I had, and there is about 4 gl of water in the tank.
>is that what you were asking?? confused sorry to much noise at my house...
>Nikki
>for what its worth I just bought a few more because that one had become
>touchy, so it was my fault
>
No it wasn't your fault. An item should be expected to perform and
keep performing for many years after purchase.

Heating small tanks has been challenging for me. When I get a half
dozen 2 or 3 gallon tanks of eggs or new fry going . . . sometimes
it's easier to heat the room instead of the tanks. There is one
company that makes small heaters, 25 watts, and they are only 6 inches
or so long. I have a few of those hanging around. I like the old-timey
concept of a breeding cabinet, where several small tanks, up to 10
gallons or so, are set on shelves inside a big cabinet - heat
retention being a major goal.

-- Mister Gardener

[Mr. Gardener]

On 18 Mar 2006 14:44:57 -0800, "Tynk" > wrote:

>
>Mr. Gardener wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:35:30 -0500, "Nikki"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >I was using a therma flow 10$ heater don't quote me but I think 55 watts,
>> >the lowest I had, and there is about 4 gl of water in the tank.
>> >is that what you were asking?? confused sorry to much noise at my house...
>> >Nikki
>> >for what its worth I just bought a few more because that one had become
>> >touchy, so it was my fault
>> >
>> No it wasn't your fault. An item should be expected to perform and
>> keep performing for many years after purchase.
>>
>> Heating small tanks has been challenging for me. When I get a half
>> dozen 2 or 3 gallon tanks of eggs or new fry going . . . sometimes
>> it's easier to heat the room instead of the tanks. There is one
>> company that makes small heaters, 25 watts, and they are only 6 inches
>> or so long. I have a few of those hanging around. I like the old-timey
>> concept of a breeding cabinet, where several small tanks, up to 10
>> gallons or so, are set on shelves inside a big cabinet - heat
>> retention being a major goal.
>>
>> -- Mister Gardener
>
>For my 2 1/2g tanks I use a mini submersible by Marineland.
>It's labeled *Neptune* Aquarium heater
>It's a 25wt heater and is for use *up tp* 5g's. You don't want one that
>is pre-set to a specific temp, as the gallons vary and you may fry a
>fish, or it chill it. Too hard to deal with. You should always have one
>that has a thermostat and temperture control knob.
>Not every fish's needs are the same, so the pre set ones are bad, IMO.
>I use these heaters in my male Betta tanks, the Betta fry tanks, as
>well as other general fish coming into quarantine.
>I have never once had a problem.
>A sound word of advice:
>When it comes to heaters and filtration....
>Never skimp. You do get what you pay for in these cases.
>Having said that, filtration and temp control are so vital to your
>fish/tank's health that you never want to skimp here.
>So if you go buy another heater, make sure it is brand that is
>recommended and found to be reliable.
>Marineland's fine, Tronic, Visatherm are some good ones.
>There's another major brand that's the best, but the name has gone
>right out of my head.
>I'm sure somebody will chime in with it. = )~

Ebo Jager, Whisper Acura - there are more - Visitherm was the 25 watt
I was thinking of - Haven't seen the Marineland Neptune, I'll
bookmark this message.

-- Mister Gardener

[Nikki]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mr. Gardener wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:35:30 -0500, "Nikki"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >I was using a therma flow 10$ heater don't quote me but I think 55
>> >watts,
>> >the lowest I had, and there is about 4 gl of water in the tank.
>> >is that what you were asking?? confused sorry to much noise at my
>> >house...
>> >Nikki
>> >for what its worth I just bought a few more because that one had become
>> >touchy, so it was my fault
>> >
>> No it wasn't your fault. An item should be expected to perform and
>> keep performing for many years after purchase.
>>
>> Heating small tanks has been challenging for me. When I get a half
>> dozen 2 or 3 gallon tanks of eggs or new fry going . . . sometimes
>> it's easier to heat the room instead of the tanks. There is one
>> company that makes small heaters, 25 watts, and they are only 6 inches
>> or so long. I have a few of those hanging around. I like the old-timey
>> concept of a breeding cabinet, where several small tanks, up to 10
>> gallons or so, are set on shelves inside a big cabinet - heat
>> retention being a major goal.
>>
>> -- Mister Gardener
>
> For my 2 1/2g tanks I use a mini submersible by Marineland.
> It's labeled *Neptune* Aquarium heater
> It's a 25wt heater and is for use *up tp* 5g's. You don't want one that
> is pre-set to a specific temp, as the gallons vary and you may fry a
> fish, or it chill it. Too hard to deal with. You should always have one
> that has a thermostat and temperture control knob.
> Not every fish's needs are the same, so the pre set ones are bad, IMO.
> I use these heaters in my male Betta tanks, the Betta fry tanks, as
> well as other general fish coming into quarantine.
> I have never once had a problem.
> A sound word of advice:
> When it comes to heaters and filtration....
> Never skimp. You do get what you pay for in these cases.
> Having said that, filtration and temp control are so vital to your
> fish/tank's health that you never want to skimp here.
> So if you go buy another heater, make sure it is brand that is
> recommended and found to be reliable.
> Marineland's fine, Tronic, Visatherm are some good ones.
> There's another major brand that's the best, but the name has gone
> right out of my head.
> I'm sure somebody will chime in with it. = )~
>
well it dose have a adjustable temp on it, and until now I have never had a
problem with them, I have them in all my tanks but two of them, and they all
stay around 80 when I put them there, the knob on this one were you adjust
the temp for some reason was touchy, I also had it sitting in the closet for
some time, so who knows it could have got knocked down, it could have just
been old, the newer ones work fine, they are 10$, more for higher watts,
this is the lowest watt I have seen in them, I have two expensive heater on
my guppy tank and my 29 gl and they do nothing different then these ones, on
both you can turn the temp up by adjusting it, and I have used them as long
as I have had tanks, which is a long time, but I get these ones because they
are the only ones there small enough to fit, all the others are to big
nik

[Koi-Lo]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>
> Calling all hardware experts! Would Nikki's hot water problem have
> been any less critical if she had used two heaters in her tank, each
> rated for something less that the tank's capacity?
===========================
Speaking only for myself - I believe so. But that only applies to tanks of
20gs or more. Even a 25w can overheat a 10g tank in a warm room. In larger
tanks two small heaters almost guarantee no cooked fish if one sticks. And
your more apt to notice one is always on before it makes the water too warm.
Better to spend a few more bucks and get those that can't stick. I believe
they have the electronic thermostats. I think I'm going to look up heaters
tonight......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Nikki" > wrote in message
...
> I was using a therma flow 10$ heater don't quote me but I think 55 watts,
> the lowest I had, and there is about 4 gl of water in the tank.
====================
Hi Nikki, Foster & Smith have 25w heaters for $5.99 and mini heaters of 7ws
for betta tanks but they're $11.99. I don't have heaters in my betta tanks
and they live 4+ years. I moved them from the windowsill to the counter and
now their water stays 75F to 76F day and night. My house is on the warm
side. They're doing great. :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>
> Heating small tanks has been challenging for me. When I get a half
> dozen 2 or 3 gallon tanks of eggs or new fry going . . . sometimes
> it's easier to heat the room instead of the tanks. There is one
> company that makes small heaters, 25 watts, and they are only 6 inches
> or so long.
=================
I just dug in my heater draw and mine is a Perfecto but several companies
make the 25w 6" heaters including Visi-Therm and PennPlax.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Nikki" > wrote in message
...
>
> PS: what does every one else use for nets and stuff between tanks, so ich
> does not spread.
========================
Nets are cheap so I have about 10 of different sizes. I keep my Q tank nets
separate from my regular nets. I still rinse them in our 140F water after
use. If both Q tanks are in use I soak the nets in a Potassium Permanganate
solution in case one tank may have an infested fish and not the other. I
treat all new fish as though they were Typhoid Marys.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Nikki]

I had posted this in another post but anyway
i dont think it was because it cost 10$, because i have a few i use for the
four betta tanks i have and they work fine, the one that stuck was pretty
old, i had it put away for quite some time, out of water, so i think it may
have just been old
Nikki

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Mr. Gardener" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>>On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:39:38 -0500, "Nikki"
> wrote:
>>>
> <snip>
>> Calling all hardware experts! Would Nikki's hot water problem have
>> been any less critical if she had used two heaters in her tank, each
>> rated for something less that the tank's capacity?
>>
>> -- Mister Gardener
>
> In theory yes, if either of the heaters was small enough in wattage to not
> cause the tank to get hotter than about 85F.
>
> In usual practise, no, as Betta tanks or small tanks are quite small
> compared to typical heater outputs, whose rating go up in large wattage
> chunks (relative to tank size).
>
> If you can get odd wattage small heaters, then yes, maybe, jmo.
>
> ps: the Betta's transfer from the hot water was what I think I would've
> done too.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[Tynk]

Koi-Lo wrote:
> "Nikki" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > PS: what does every one else use for nets and stuff between tanks, so ich
> > does not spread.
> ========================
> Nets are cheap so I have about 10 of different sizes. I keep my Q tank nets
> separate from my regular nets. I still rinse them in our 140F water after
> use. If both Q tanks are in use I soak the nets in a Potassium Permanganate
> solution in case one tank may have an infested fish and not the other.
> --
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://tinyurl.com/9do58
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

KoiLo wrote:

I
> treat all new fish as though they were Typhoid Marys.

LOL....that's a good way of putting it. I too feel the same way.
I quarantine everything new coming in with the thought that do have
something and treat everything else that comes into contact with the Q
tank the same way.
Although, as carefull as I am, I have had the occasional brainfart a
couple times.
I recently either cross contaminated my Q tank with a virus that hit my
Betta stock in the 75g, or the DoJo's were carrying it and once out of
qurantine they spread it to my Betta stock. All my other Betta stock is
fine. That is except one malle that had contact with one of the DoJos.
It had flopped out of the net on it's way into the Q tank and right
into the male Betta's tank next to it.
I wish I knew how it spread though. It would be good to know if it
could be spread by a carrier fish.
I've seen this (I think it's viral) disease once before.
Then too it only killed Bettas, and just as fast.
The last fish I had die on me I timed.
>From onset of symptoms (visible), till death was 7 hours. However, of
course I have no way of knowing how long she was actually sick for
(incubation period?).
An area of body will become a little stiff, or fins act as if frozen or
paralized in a certain area. Then shortly after that the area becomes
black. If on the body the area stays black for a while even after
death.
If on finnage, shortly after turning black the area falls off.
Some fish will show either excess slime coat in a certain spot or that
bacterial infection look often mistaken for fungus. If the fish shows
this at all, it's very little and very faint.
You'd never notice it on a white fish either.
It seems to be that some hang on longer than others, and some croak as
soon as the black starts. Both times I had 98% deaths. I again have 2
females that have survived it.
(so far)
It's been a week since the last death, and I am obviously cautious to
even think of replacing stock now.
I don't know what this is, how long it's contagious for and if these
surviving girls are carriers just waiting to spread it healthy girls,
or are they now immune?
I may have to buy a Betta just in order to see if it's all clear in the
tank.
I won't risk the males I have left around the house. 2 are ancient and
the rest are breeding prospects, so forget them.
The only other male I had that I would even consider just died. Guess
he had other plans.
= /

[Tynk]

Nikki wrote:
> a while back, not to long ago I had got two red bettas from my LFS that is
> closing, they were sick and they had got into a fight at some point before I
> got them (fins were a mess) and a couple people on here helped me, and they
> are doing great now, fins are even looking better
> so maybe I can ask one more time.
> My husband will be happy at the end of the month when I will have to go
> further then three blocks to bring fish home (LFS is closing) : )
> They had two blue betta's (who did not look bad) but after a couple days I
> noticed one had a couple spots that looked like ick, at that point I should
> have looked close but did not, I started a ick treatment yesterday morning,
> today I noticed that one was just staying on the bottom of the tank not
> coming up to eat or anything, I got a magnified glass and was looking close
> at him and thought I seen black spots but they are pin holes, now I am not
> sure if in the light I was using it was ick or these pin holes i was seeing,
> I think the pinholes are tail rot (tell me if I am wrong) I have an
> antibiotic that says its for tail rot, so I opened the capsule and put some
> in, now I don't know if I should treat with ick or antibiotic, I figure
> while this is going on I will change water every day, but as of last night
> it has not eaten, which is not good, anything else i should be doing?
> thanks NikkiI
Hi there Nikki
I forgot to send you female Betta pics.
If you send me your regular email address I can send you an entire
album that has many good female Bettas in it (and many other males
too).
I don't exactly know how to add my pictures in one of these reply
windows.
I know that may sound silly, but I wasn't raised with a puter in my
hand, lol.
Regular email, I have no troubles lol.
My regular email is how it's it's listed. Just
Have a Betta day! = )
Kelly

[Nikki]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>> "Nikki" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > PS: what does every one else use for nets and stuff between tanks, so
>> > ich
>> > does not spread.
>> ========================
>> Nets are cheap so I have about 10 of different sizes. I keep my Q tank
>> nets
>> separate from my regular nets. I still rinse them in our 140F water after
>> use. If both Q tanks are in use I soak the nets in a Potassium
>> Permanganate
>> solution in case one tank may have an infested fish and not the other.
>> --
>> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>> Aquariums since 1952
>> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
>> http://tinyurl.com/9do58
>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>
> KoiLo wrote:
>
> I
>> treat all new fish as though they were Typhoid Marys.
>
> LOL....that's a good way of putting it. I too feel the same way.
> I quarantine everything new coming in with the thought that do have
> something and treat everything else that comes into contact with the Q
> tank the same way.
> Although, as carefull as I am, I have had the occasional brainfart a
> couple times.
> I recently either cross contaminated my Q tank with a virus that hit my
> Betta stock in the 75g, or the DoJo's were carrying it and once out of
> qurantine they spread it to my Betta stock. All my other Betta stock is
> fine. That is except one malle that had contact with one of the DoJos.
> It had flopped out of the net on it's way into the Q tank and right
> into the male Betta's tank next to it.
> I wish I knew how it spread though. It would be good to know if it
> could be spread by a carrier fish.
> I've seen this (I think it's viral) disease once before.
> Then too it only killed Bettas, and just as fast.
> The last fish I had die on me I timed.
>>From onset of symptoms (visible), till death was 7 hours. However, of
> course I have no way of knowing how long she was actually sick for
> (incubation period?).
> An area of body will become a little stiff, or fins act as if frozen or
> paralized in a certain area. Then shortly after that the area becomes
> black. If on the body the area stays black for a while even after
> death.
> If on finnage, shortly after turning black the area falls off.
> Some fish will show either excess slime coat in a certain spot or that
> bacterial infection look often mistaken for fungus. If the fish shows
> this at all, it's very little and very faint.
> You'd never notice it on a white fish either.
> It seems to be that some hang on longer than others, and some croak as
> soon as the black starts. Both times I had 98% deaths. I again have 2
> females that have survived it.
> (so far)
> It's been a week since the last death, and I am obviously cautious to
> even think of replacing stock now.
> I don't know what this is, how long it's contagious for and if these
> surviving girls are carriers just waiting to spread it healthy girls,
> or are they now immune?
> I may have to buy a Betta just in order to see if it's all clear in the
> tank.
> I won't risk the males I have left around the house. 2 are ancient and
> the rest are breeding prospects, so forget them.
> The only other male I had that I would even consider just died. Guess
> he had other plans.
> = /
>
Tynk, first sorry for so many questions.....how many female betta's can you
put in a 39-40 long? and have them get along, i dont mean for water quality,
well that to, but how many can live together and be happy? have you ever had
any problems (like male attitude) with them between eachother? also do they
thrive in the same conditions as males, 80 degrees, anything different from
the males except they can live together? i am going to get them this weekend
I'm pretty sure, i have seen the white female betta's they are very pretty.
also do they need a lot of hiding places and do they do better in a planted
tank? I was looking up info but every thing on them is centered around
breeding.
If you have a extra few minutes sometime can you let me know
again thanks Nik

[Nikki]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Nikki wrote:
>> a while back, not to long ago I had got two red bettas from my LFS that
>> is
>> closing, they were sick and they had got into a fight at some point
>> before I
>> got them (fins were a mess) and a couple people on here helped me, and
>> they
>> are doing great now, fins are even looking better
>> so maybe I can ask one more time.
>> My husband will be happy at the end of the month when I will have to go
>> further then three blocks to bring fish home (LFS is closing) : )
>> They had two blue betta's (who did not look bad) but after a couple days
>> I
>> noticed one had a couple spots that looked like ick, at that point I
>> should
>> have looked close but did not, I started a ick treatment yesterday
>> morning,
>> today I noticed that one was just staying on the bottom of the tank not
>> coming up to eat or anything, I got a magnified glass and was looking
>> close
>> at him and thought I seen black spots but they are pin holes, now I am
>> not
>> sure if in the light I was using it was ick or these pin holes i was
>> seeing,
>> I think the pinholes are tail rot (tell me if I am wrong) I have an
>> antibiotic that says its for tail rot, so I opened the capsule and put
>> some
>> in, now I don't know if I should treat with ick or antibiotic, I figure
>> while this is going on I will change water every day, but as of last
>> night
>> it has not eaten, which is not good, anything else i should be doing?
>> thanks NikkiI
> Hi there Nikki
> I forgot to send you female Betta pics.
> If you send me your regular email address I can send you an entire
> album that has many good female Bettas in it (and many other males
> too).
> I don't exactly know how to add my pictures in one of these reply
> windows.
> I know that may sound silly, but I wasn't raised with a puter in my
> hand, lol.
> Regular email, I have no troubles lol.
> My regular email is how it's it's listed. Just
> Have a Betta day! = )
> Kelly
>

Hey, I just posted to you in another post somewhere, I was asking you some
questions about female bettas I am going to try and get mine this weekend,
but wanted to find out some things first.
I have been taking pics of mine also, but they wont sit still so I cant get
any good ones
My email is (be careful posting your email on
message boards)
i dont know if you have it but you can also post pics of fish at
alt.binaries.aquaria
but i have heard people say they cant not get that board. Any way that is my
address above, looking forward to seeing them, if i get any good ones from
my males today i will send them to you, i got a couple of my gourami and
goldfish, after they ate, only took me two hours. and my dog but he is such
a monster i cant get his entire body in this stupid cam.
nik

[Koi-Lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-Lo wrote:
> I
>> treat all new fish as though they were Typhoid Marys.
========================
> LOL....that's a good way of putting it. I too feel the same way.
> I quarantine everything new coming in with the thought that do have
> something and treat everything else that comes into contact with the Q
> tank the same way.
> Although, as carefull as I am, I have had the occasional brainfart a
> couple times.
> I recently either cross contaminated my Q tank with a virus that hit my
> Betta stock in the 75g, or the DoJo's were carrying it and once out of
> qurantine they spread it to my Betta stock. All my other Betta stock is
> fine. That is except one malle that had contact with one of the DoJos.
> It had flopped out of the net on it's way into the Q tank and right
> into the male Betta's tank next to it.
> I wish I knew how it spread though. It would be good to know if it
> could be spread by a carrier fish.

Which is another subject altogether. I had a "carrier" of some kind of
parasite I never did identify that wiped out a whole 150g pool of fancy GF
back in or 2002 or 03. So I know there are carriers of disease - Typhoid
Mary's. Everything involved with that one pool was BURNED - everything!
The plants, the bubble-up filter, the pool and liner, everything! I tried
anti-parasitics from salt to the formaldehyde's to PP and nothing cured it.
Within weeks it was back again......... it was every bit the nightmare the
contagious ulcers were. A motorcycle accident cured the problem. My leg in
a cast and unable to treat them yet again, all died quickly - problem
solved.

Since I couldn't know who was the carrier (if there was a carrier) I
couldn't separate these fish but kept them together and treated them
endlessly together. I lived in fear it would spread to the other pools and
my ponds. I just happened to pick up an infested fish somewhere - that's
all it took.

> I've seen this (I think it's viral) disease once before.
> Then too it only killed Bettas, and just as fast.
> The last fish I had die on me I timed.
>>From onset of symptoms (visible), till death was 7 hours. However, of
> course I have no way of knowing how long she was actually sick for
> (incubation period?).
> An area of body will become a little stiff, or fins act as if frozen or
> paralized in a certain area. Then shortly after that the area becomes
> black. If on the body the area stays black for a while even after
> death.
> If on finnage, shortly after turning black the area falls off.
> Some fish will show either excess slime coat in a certain spot or that
> bacterial infection look often mistaken for fungus. If the fish shows
> this at all, it's very little and very faint.
> You'd never notice it on a white fish either.

Geeze.... now this is scary. I've not seen this one before. Do you think
it's bacterial or viral?

> It seems to be that some hang on longer than others, and some croak as
> soon as the black starts. Both times I had 98% deaths. I again have 2
> females that have survived it.
> (so far)
> It's been a week since the last death, and I am obviously cautious to
> even think of replacing stock now.
> I don't know what this is, how long it's contagious for and if these
> surviving girls are carriers just waiting to spread it healthy girls,
> or are they now immune?

They may be immune Typhoid Mary's.

> I may have to buy a Betta just in order to see if it's all clear in the
> tank.
> I won't risk the males I have left around the house. 2 are ancient and
> the rest are breeding prospects, so forget them.
> The only other male I had that I would even consider just died. Guess
> he had other plans.
> = /


--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Tynk]

Nikki wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-Lo wrote:
> >> "Nikki" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > PS: what does every one else use for nets and stuff between tanks, so
> >> > ich
> >> > does not spread.
> >> ========================
> >> Nets are cheap so I have about 10 of different sizes. I keep my Q tank
> >> nets
> >> separate from my regular nets. I still rinse them in our 140F water after
> >> use. If both Q tanks are in use I soak the nets in a Potassium
> >> Permanganate
> >> solution in case one tank may have an infested fish and not the other.
> >> --
> >> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> >> Aquariums since 1952
> >> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> >> http://tinyurl.com/9do58
> >> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
> >
> > KoiLo wrote:
> >
> > I
> >> treat all new fish as though they were Typhoid Marys.
> >
> > LOL....that's a good way of putting it. I too feel the same way.
> > I quarantine everything new coming in with the thought that do have
> > something and treat everything else that comes into contact with the Q
> > tank the same way.
> > Although, as carefull as I am, I have had the occasional brainfart a
> > couple times.
> > I recently either cross contaminated my Q tank with a virus that hit my
> > Betta stock in the 75g, or the DoJo's were carrying it and once out of
> > qurantine they spread it to my Betta stock. All my other Betta stock is
> > fine. That is except one malle that had contact with one of the DoJos.
> > It had flopped out of the net on it's way into the Q tank and right
> > into the male Betta's tank next to it.
> > I wish I knew how it spread though. It would be good to know if it
> > could be spread by a carrier fish.
> > I've seen this (I think it's viral) disease once before.
> > Then too it only killed Bettas, and just as fast.
> > The last fish I had die on me I timed.
> >>From onset of symptoms (visible), till death was 7 hours. However, of
> > course I have no way of knowing how long she was actually sick for
> > (incubation period?).
> > An area of body will become a little stiff, or fins act as if frozen or
> > paralized in a certain area. Then shortly after that the area becomes
> > black. If on the body the area stays black for a while even after
> > death.
> > If on finnage, shortly after turning black the area falls off.
> > Some fish will show either excess slime coat in a certain spot or that
> > bacterial infection look often mistaken for fungus. If the fish shows
> > this at all, it's very little and very faint.
> > You'd never notice it on a white fish either.
> > It seems to be that some hang on longer than others, and some croak as
> > soon as the black starts. Both times I had 98% deaths. I again have 2
> > females that have survived it.
> > (so far)
> > It's been a week since the last death, and I am obviously cautious to
> > even think of replacing stock now.
> > I don't know what this is, how long it's contagious for and if these
> > surviving girls are carriers just waiting to spread it healthy girls,
> > or are they now immune?
> > I may have to buy a Betta just in order to see if it's all clear in the
> > tank.
> > I won't risk the males I have left around the house. 2 are ancient and
> > the rest are breeding prospects, so forget them.
> > The only other male I had that I would even consider just died. Guess
> > he had other plans.
> > = /
> >

Hey Nikki = )

> Tynk, first sorry for so many questions.....how many female betta's can you
> put in a 39-40 long? and have them get along, i dont mean for water quality,
> well that to, but how many can live together and be happy? have you ever had
> any problems (like male attitude) with them between eachother? also do they
> thrive in the same conditions as males, 80 degrees, anything different from
> the males except they can live together? i am going to get them this weekend
> I'm pretty sure, i have seen the white female betta's they are very pretty.
> also do they need a lot of hiding places and do they do better in a planted
> tank? I was looking up info but every thing on them is centered around
> breeding.
> If you have a extra few minutes sometime can you let me know
> again thanks Nik

Let me start by saying never, and I mean NEVER be sorry for asking so
many question before doing in this hobby.
You have no clue as to how good that is of you right now. Before long
you'll see what I mean though.
Until then, ask away and as often as you need with your chin up. = )

Also let me say sorry if this gets long, but when it comes to Bettas
there is nothing written in stone, except for one thing. They're all
differrent! = )~

Because of this, many people will take the short route and say, "No,
you can't house a male with females...ever." Or, "A male will kill any
females not ready to spawn, so you can't keep them together."
Now it's very possible to have a male that is overly aggressive and
needs to be on his own. Period! If put with others, it could very well
rip a female to shreds.
But then again for the majority of males they settle quite qucikly and
fit into the Betta hierarchy. Being a male doesn't always mean you have
the "alpha" place in the hierarchy either. I've had many females hold
that place.

There is also a chance that a particular female may be overly
aggressive and would attack the male.
I've had females that would kill any male put into their tank. I've
recently had a single female that would shred up all males except for
one particular male. They would have made an interesting spawning pair
if he were worthy, but he was not. Although she was a lovely long
finned female. She was simply too aggressive with any other male to
spawn her.

The last batch of females I had that 98% died of some sort of (I
believe to be viral) disease were only fine with certain males.
No Crown tails, as they would be shredded (my poor One Eyed Jack found
that out. He's now healing nicely on his own.) He was in and out before
this disease came in, so he got lucky.
I now have a new veil tail male in the 75g with the surviving females.
So far he's fine.
I'm hoping the suriving girls aren't carriers. That once it's over on
the individual fish, that's it. (fingers crossed)

Now figuring out how many females can live in a 39-40g (us gallons
correct?) will depend on the fish, your tank habits, the decor, and
also the max size of the female must be taken into consideration. A
female can (although not in my hard water) get as large as a male, just
minus the long finnage.
You can occasionaly see huge...monster females in shops. These are
usually old breeders who are getting up there in age. These ladies need
either a calm tank or no male in their tank. These girls fill with eggs
so fast and huge with a male around that I've seem a lot become egg
bound.
This is why I keep these old gals without a male around.
Egg binding is rather rare. However, I've noticed a pattern with the
old breeders dropping dead fat with ripe eggs (when a male was arund).
So if a person had a tank that had a resident male and several females
and you wanted to add one or more of these huge females...either don't
or remove the male. (IMO)

Now forgetting about keeping a male in with females, it's important to
understand what's going on between all the female Bettas at all times.
There is a hierarchy that must be found and kept at all times.
If any changes happen..be it new addition/s, death or removal one one
or more females the order must be figured out anew.
Now Bettas also have territories, or areas they like to be alone in.
This is where the importance of tank decor comes into play.
It's a must. Without it they fight. No matter how well they got along
in a tank with plenty of decor, when it's removed they fight. They
bicker like hormonal teenage girls that brawl.
Add one plant and it's better right away. Well...for the one that got
the plant. = )~
Tank decor takes up room, so you need to add this into "how many can go
in a Xg tank".
I mean if you've filled your tank witrh large rocks and large plants
you have less room for fish. So plan it out.
I like to consider their max size even though in my hard water they
don't reach it. They get about 75% of their true max size. It doesn't
seem to be a problem becauase they live an average 4-5+ yrs if I get
them young or breed them myself. Now if the growth stunting was more
than that it would cause damage to their internal organs and that would
shorten their lifespan.
For you Nikki, you'll have to figure out what kind of water you have.
Is your tap water hard/alkaline or soft/acidic or neutral?
Normal behavior between females (and between a female and a male) will
consist of on a daily basis, posturing or flaring at each other. Each
one will have their own personality. Their own likes and dislikes. Some
may fancy some more than others, or even detest the presence of an
indivudal. This is all evident by their body language.
Betta body language is easily learned if you put the time into it and
the means for it.
Obviously you must need large enough tank.
You can't squish 3 females in a gallon vase. Heck, you can't keep 3 in
a 2 1/2 gallon.
Baby girls are a different story, so they don't count. = )
Females need space. Without it, they bicker.
Never keep only 2 females. It's havoc for the lessor female. The alpha
has nobody else to assert her place with and so the other female is
harrassed constantly. This can stress it to death.
So the minimum is always 3. The smallest tank I would house (only..no
other tank mates) 3 females in would be a 5g tank.
In my 75g I kept 13 females. That's a big tank but I could not have had
one more lady in that tank.
Everyone had a spot and there were no more. Some had larger areas to
themselves, and others seemed to like going all over the tank for 50%
of their time and the other 50% staked out a smaller area. The ladies
that liked to hang out in one area would pitch a fit when one of the
ladies came swimming through but they didn't seem to care.
Those types must be the adrenalin junkies, lol.
The lower the rank (when several females are together) the more often
they are showing submission coloring. Usually the omega (lowest in the
hierarchy) is always showing submission coloring. This is when they
blanch out their body color and look a drab dead color with horizontal
barring running along their sides ( 2 bars).
Usually once the pecking order is in place and everyone knows their
place the femnales color up nicley.
Then you get to see their true beauty.
I try to keep every color you can think of (I'd kill for emerald green!
Not the teal green... kelly green type green with no red underneath it
green. Wowza).
It so niceto have lovely royal blues, solid bright reds, dark reds,
dark blues, steel blues, white, yellow, multi colored, oh my so pretty!
= O
Ah but wait! There's more!
Now you have your choice of color patterns and fin variations.
Some are harder to find than others of course, but there are butterlfy
patterns, delta tails, crowntails, long finned, doubletails, Opaques
(range from white to blue-green, etc but are pearlized. That's the only
way I can think to describe the opaque color variation), pastels, mutli
colored which range from being marbled to grizzled.
The list goes on and on.
Bettatalk.com has a page with all the tail variations and the color
patterns that that particular breeder has come up with.
There's more breeders out there that have equally or better strains
than hers too, so do a search on it. You'll be amazed at what you
find.
Bettasrus.com is another.

[Nikki]

posted at bottom
">
> Hey Nikki = )
>
>> Tynk, first sorry for so many questions.....how many female betta's can
>> you
>> put in a 39-40 long? and have them get along, i dont mean for water
>> quality,
>> well that to, but how many can live together and be happy? have you ever
>> had
>> any problems (like male attitude) with them between eachother? also do
>> they
>> thrive in the same conditions as males, 80 degrees, anything different
>> from
>> the males except they can live together? i am going to get them this
>> weekend
>> I'm pretty sure, i have seen the white female betta's they are very
>> pretty.
>> also do they need a lot of hiding places and do they do better in a
>> planted
>> tank? I was looking up info but every thing on them is centered around
>> breeding.
>> If you have a extra few minutes sometime can you let me know
>> again thanks Nik
>
> Let me start by saying never, and I mean NEVER be sorry for asking so
> many question before doing in this hobby.
> You have no clue as to how good that is of you right now. Before long
> you'll see what I mean though.
> Until then, ask away and as often as you need with your chin up. = )
>
> Also let me say sorry if this gets long, but when it comes to Bettas
> there is nothing written in stone, except for one thing. They're all
> differrent! = )~
>
> Because of this, many people will take the short route and say, "No,
> you can't house a male with females...ever." Or, "A male will kill any
> females not ready to spawn, so you can't keep them together."
> Now it's very possible to have a male that is overly aggressive and
> needs to be on his own. Period! If put with others, it could very well
> rip a female to shreds.
> But then again for the majority of males they settle quite qucikly and
> fit into the Betta hierarchy. Being a male doesn't always mean you have
> the "alpha" place in the hierarchy either. I've had many females hold
> that place.
>
> There is also a chance that a particular female may be overly
> aggressive and would attack the male.
> I've had females that would kill any male put into their tank. I've
> recently had a single female that would shred up all males except for
> one particular male. They would have made an interesting spawning pair
> if he were worthy, but he was not. Although she was a lovely long
> finned female. She was simply too aggressive with any other male to
> spawn her.
>
> The last batch of females I had that 98% died of some sort of (I
> believe to be viral) disease were only fine with certain males.
> No Crown tails, as they would be shredded (my poor One Eyed Jack found
> that out. He's now healing nicely on his own.) He was in and out before
> this disease came in, so he got lucky.
> I now have a new veil tail male in the 75g with the surviving females.
> So far he's fine.
> I'm hoping the suriving girls aren't carriers. That once it's over on
> the individual fish, that's it. (fingers crossed)
>
> Now figuring out how many females can live in a 39-40g (us gallons
> correct?) will depend on the fish, your tank habits, the decor, and
> also the max size of the female must be taken into consideration. A
> female can (although not in my hard water) get as large as a male, just
> minus the long finnage.
> You can occasionaly see huge...monster females in shops. These are
> usually old breeders who are getting up there in age. These ladies need
> either a calm tank or no male in their tank. These girls fill with eggs
> so fast and huge with a male around that I've seem a lot become egg
> bound.
> This is why I keep these old gals without a male around.
> Egg binding is rather rare. However, I've noticed a pattern with the
> old breeders dropping dead fat with ripe eggs (when a male was arund).
> So if a person had a tank that had a resident male and several females
> and you wanted to add one or more of these huge females...either don't
> or remove the male. (IMO)
>
> Now forgetting about keeping a male in with females, it's important to
> understand what's going on between all the female Bettas at all times.
> There is a hierarchy that must be found and kept at all times.
> If any changes happen..be it new addition/s, death or removal one one
> or more females the order must be figured out anew.
> Now Bettas also have territories, or areas they like to be alone in.
> This is where the importance of tank decor comes into play.
> It's a must. Without it they fight. No matter how well they got along
> in a tank with plenty of decor, when it's removed they fight. They
> bicker like hormonal teenage girls that brawl.
> Add one plant and it's better right away. Well...for the one that got
> the plant. = )~
> Tank decor takes up room, so you need to add this into "how many can go
> in a Xg tank".
> I mean if you've filled your tank witrh large rocks and large plants
> you have less room for fish. So plan it out.
> I like to consider their max size even though in my hard water they
> don't reach it. They get about 75% of their true max size. It doesn't
> seem to be a problem becauase they live an average 4-5+ yrs if I get
> them young or breed them myself. Now if the growth stunting was more
> than that it would cause damage to their internal organs and that would
> shorten their lifespan.
> For you Nikki, you'll have to figure out what kind of water you have.
> Is your tap water hard/alkaline or soft/acidic or neutral?
> Normal behavior between females (and between a female and a male) will
> consist of on a daily basis, posturing or flaring at each other. Each
> one will have their own personality. Their own likes and dislikes. Some
> may fancy some more than others, or even detest the presence of an
> indivudal. This is all evident by their body language.
> Betta body language is easily learned if you put the time into it and
> the means for it.
> Obviously you must need large enough tank.
> You can't squish 3 females in a gallon vase. Heck, you can't keep 3 in
> a 2 1/2 gallon.
> Baby girls are a different story, so they don't count. = )
> Females need space. Without it, they bicker.
> Never keep only 2 females. It's havoc for the lessor female. The alpha
> has nobody else to assert her place with and so the other female is
> harrassed constantly. This can stress it to death.
> So the minimum is always 3. The smallest tank I would house (only..no
> other tank mates) 3 females in would be a 5g tank.
> In my 75g I kept 13 females. That's a big tank but I could not have had
> one more lady in that tank.
> Everyone had a spot and there were no more. Some had larger areas to
> themselves, and others seemed to like going all over the tank for 50%
> of their time and the other 50% staked out a smaller area. The ladies
> that liked to hang out in one area would pitch a fit when one of the
> ladies came swimming through but they didn't seem to care.
> Those types must be the adrenalin junkies, lol.
> The lower the rank (when several females are together) the more often
> they are showing submission coloring. Usually the omega (lowest in the
> hierarchy) is always showing submission coloring. This is when they
> blanch out their body color and look a drab dead color with horizontal
> barring running along their sides ( 2 bars).
> Usually once the pecking order is in place and everyone knows their
> place the femnales color up nicley.
> Then you get to see their true beauty.
> I try to keep every color you can think of (I'd kill for emerald green!
> Not the teal green... kelly green type green with no red underneath it
> green. Wowza).
> It so niceto have lovely royal blues, solid bright reds, dark reds,
> dark blues, steel blues, white, yellow, multi colored, oh my so pretty!
> = O
> Ah but wait! There's more!
> Now you have your choice of color patterns and fin variations.
> Some are harder to find than others of course, but there are butterlfy
> patterns, delta tails, crowntails, long finned, doubletails, Opaques
> (range from white to blue-green, etc but are pearlized. That's the only
> way I can think to describe the opaque color variation), pastels, mutli
> colored which range from being marbled to grizzled.
> The list goes on and on.
> Bettatalk.com has a page with all the tail variations and the color
> patterns that that particular breeder has come up with.
> There's more breeders out there that have equally or better strains
> than hers too, so do a search on it. You'll be amazed at what you
> find.
> Bettasrus.com is another.
>

Sorry I have wanted to email you, I got ur email, but my little one was in
the hospital, feeling better now, but anyway just trying to get life back to
normal today...
Right now I have One female in a 40 gl long (us) tank, with some hornwort, I
am going to get some more females on Friday. I will email you about the blue
male betta....he is not doing well., as for "all" the other males they are
all doing great..
I had got another male white/red, very pretty, Then my husband got me two
more, humm, I had to find room, 2-5 gl tanks all over the house is getting
crazy, I put one in a 5gl I had and the other I put a divider in the female
tank (about ten gl worth of space) at least till I can get out to the store
which will be Friday, the one he got me was very long fined all white with a
pink tail/fin beautiful. the other is blue/red. I would like to be able to
put more then one male in a tank, like maybe 2 (a bigger tank) but I would
be afraid they would get hurt, I thought about putting my new white/red one
in with the female because he does not seem aggressive, unlike most of the
others, I have two that don't seem to be bothered by the other males, then I
have one who flares at every fish he see's I try to keep him away from the
others (as not to stress him).
how do you know if a female has eggs in her belly, I had not thought about
it but I have a male in her tank with a divider I don't want nothing to
happen to her.....she is still young, not full grown, I will see if I can
get some pic tomorrow.
Nik