Otocinclus woes... :-(

[Jason in Oakland]

I have a 12g tank, now more or less fully cycled (after two weeks in a
loaded tank, I have no ammonia or nitrite--nitrate slowly climbing,
presently at 10ppm).

I have 5 golden barbs, and 2 otocincli.

I had 3 oto's, but a few days ago, awoke to find one dead. Upside down
at the bottom of my tank. He seemed thin and stiff.

I know these are delicate fish, and not even a week ago, they all had
endured 2+ppm nitrite during an unfortunate tank-fouling episode, and
a traumatic move to a bucket overnight, and back.

However, they seemed to have relaxed a bit by then. Maybe his immune
system had been weakened, and he succumbed to something else?

One of the remaining oto's is large, and growing larger, with a huge
belly. The other is much smaller, not growing, and without that nice
belly.

I'm worried about the smaller one.

I suspected two things: 1) starvation, and 2) low oxygen. Starvation
because it seemed they had eaten up all the algae within a week or so
and were constantly sucking up around for food. I bought some Hiraki
algae wafers and dropped some in, but it seems to be fattening up the
larger oto, and maybe even the golden barbs, who are total pigs and
ALWAYS hungry.

I worried about low oxygen, even though I have a bubbler wand. I saw
one of the smaller oto's rapidly swimming to the surface to "gulp"
some air and then swimming down again several times the night before
one died. The next day I dropped the temp from 79F to about 74F.
Now I just noticed the (surviving) smaller one doing the same today. I
took out enough water so that the filter exit is above the waterline
and there's some turbulence. I read that both types of fish like
turbulent water and are not bothered by the bubbles.

If the smaller one is being crowded out for food, I'm not sure what to
do. I don't want to take him out for any reason--I don't think he
could take any more stress. If it's an oxygen problem I think I've
done all I can.

Anyone with experience with this? I know dying fish is a fact of life,
but I'd like to do anything I can to minimize its occurence!

Thanks,
Jason

[Rick]

"Jason in Oakland" > wrote in message
om...
> I have a 12g tank, now more or less fully cycled (after two weeks in a
> loaded tank, I have no ammonia or nitrite--nitrate slowly climbing,
> presently at 10ppm).
>
> I have 5 golden barbs, and 2 otocincli.
>
> I had 3 oto's, but a few days ago, awoke to find one dead. Upside down
> at the bottom of my tank. He seemed thin and stiff.
>
> I know these are delicate fish, and not even a week ago, they all had
> endured 2+ppm nitrite during an unfortunate tank-fouling episode, and
> a traumatic move to a bucket overnight, and back.
>
> However, they seemed to have relaxed a bit by then. Maybe his immune
> system had been weakened, and he succumbed to something else?
>
> One of the remaining oto's is large, and growing larger, with a huge
> belly. The other is much smaller, not growing, and without that nice
> belly.
>
> I'm worried about the smaller one.
>
> I suspected two things: 1) starvation, and 2) low oxygen. Starvation
> because it seemed they had eaten up all the algae within a week or so
> and were constantly sucking up around for food. I bought some Hiraki
> algae wafers and dropped some in, but it seems to be fattening up the
> larger oto, and maybe even the golden barbs, who are total pigs and
> ALWAYS hungry.
>
> I worried about low oxygen, even though I have a bubbler wand. I saw
> one of the smaller oto's rapidly swimming to the surface to "gulp"
> some air and then swimming down again several times the night before
> one died. The next day I dropped the temp from 79F to about 74F.
> Now I just noticed the (surviving) smaller one doing the same today. I
> took out enough water so that the filter exit is above the waterline
> and there's some turbulence. I read that both types of fish like
> turbulent water and are not bothered by the bubbles.
>
> If the smaller one is being crowded out for food, I'm not sure what to
> do. I don't want to take him out for any reason--I don't think he
> could take any more stress. If it's an oxygen problem I think I've
> done all I can.
>
> Anyone with experience with this? I know dying fish is a fact of life,
> but I'd like to do anything I can to minimize its occurence!
>
> Thanks,
> Jason


Jason , unless you used some bacteria type additive then from my experience
your tank is not cycled in two weeks. You are correct that Otto's are very
sensitive to changing water conditions so they make very poor choices for a
new tank during the cycling process. I'm sure your problem is not oxygen
related. A 12 gallon tank with a normal HOB like an aqua clear or similar
filter is all you should need. Remember these are very small fish and
although they are great algae eaters ( I have about a dozen in my planted
tank) you don't want to overfeed. I think the problem is likely water and
stress related and should hopefully sort itself out. From my experience most
of my tanks set up using fish to cycle took 4-5 weeks to complete the entire
process. There is a product out that people have been raving about called
Bio Spirila (sp?) and apparently is almost instantly cycles your tank.

Rick

[Lydia]

"Jason in Oakland" > wrote in message
om...
> I have a 12g tank, now more or less fully cycled (after two weeks in a
> loaded tank, I have no ammonia or nitrite--nitrate slowly climbing,
> presently at 10ppm).
>
> I have 5 golden barbs, and 2 otocincli.
>
> I had 3 oto's, but a few days ago, awoke to find one dead. Upside down
> at the bottom of my tank. He seemed thin and stiff.
>
> I know these are delicate fish, and not even a week ago, they all had
> endured 2+ppm nitrite during an unfortunate tank-fouling episode, and
> a traumatic move to a bucket overnight, and back.
>
> However, they seemed to have relaxed a bit by then. Maybe his immune
> system had been weakened, and he succumbed to something else?
>
> One of the remaining oto's is large, and growing larger, with a huge
> belly. The other is much smaller, not growing, and without that nice
> belly.
>
> I'm worried about the smaller one.
>
> I suspected two things: 1) starvation, and 2) low oxygen. Starvation
> because it seemed they had eaten up all the algae within a week or so
> and were constantly sucking up around for food. I bought some Hiraki
> algae wafers and dropped some in, but it seems to be fattening up the
> larger oto, and maybe even the golden barbs, who are total pigs and
> ALWAYS hungry.
>
> I worried about low oxygen, even though I have a bubbler wand. I saw
> one of the smaller oto's rapidly swimming to the surface to "gulp"
> some air and then swimming down again several times the night before
> one died. The next day I dropped the temp from 79F to about 74F.
> Now I just noticed the (surviving) smaller one doing the same today. I
> took out enough water so that the filter exit is above the waterline
> and there's some turbulence. I read that both types of fish like
> turbulent water and are not bothered by the bubbles.
>
> If the smaller one is being crowded out for food, I'm not sure what to
> do. I don't want to take him out for any reason--I don't think he
> could take any more stress. If it's an oxygen problem I think I've
> done all I can.
>
> Anyone with experience with this? I know dying fish is a fact of life,
> but I'd like to do anything I can to minimize its occurence!
>
> Thanks,
> Jason



Hi Jason,
I, too, have just recently been strapped with otocinclus woes. I have a
10 gallon tank that was forming an algae problem. A couple of the walls and
most of the [artificial] plants had a fine layer on them. So I got an
otocinclus who promptly cleared off the worst of the 2 walls with algae, but
then that was it. I was anxiously watching to see if the plants would soon
be cleaner, but they weren't. Then yesterday, a couple weeks after getting
the oto, I found him dead and stuck to the filter intake spout.

I have algae wafers for my other tank, but I didn't put any in the 10
gal. because I thought there was plenty of natural algae for the oto to eat
and didn't want to overfeed. Do they only eat certain types of algae, I
wonder?

Maybe an algae killing product would work better for us. Algae-fix...
is that one? Sounds familiar or maybe that's one made for outdoor ponds...

Good luck to you!
Lydia

[Harry Muscle]

"Lydia" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jason in Oakland" < > wrote in message
> om...
> > I have a 12g tank, now more or less fully cycled (after two weeks in a
> > loaded tank, I have no ammonia or nitrite--nitrate slowly climbing,
> > presently at 10ppm).
> >
> > I have 5 golden barbs, and 2 otocincli.
> >
> > I had 3 oto's, but a few days ago, awoke to find one dead. Upside down
> > at the bottom of my tank. He seemed thin and stiff.
> >
> > I know these are delicate fish, and not even a week ago, they all had
> > endured 2+ppm nitrite during an unfortunate tank-fouling episode, and
> > a traumatic move to a bucket overnight, and back.
> >
> > However, they seemed to have relaxed a bit by then. Maybe his immune
> > system had been weakened, and he succumbed to something else?
> >
> > One of the remaining oto's is large, and growing larger, with a huge
> > belly. The other is much smaller, not growing, and without that nice
> > belly.
> >
> > I'm worried about the smaller one.
> >
> > I suspected two things: 1) starvation, and 2) low oxygen. Starvation
> > because it seemed they had eaten up all the algae within a week or so
> > and were constantly sucking up around for food. I bought some Hiraki
> > algae wafers and dropped some in, but it seems to be fattening up the
> > larger oto, and maybe even the golden barbs, who are total pigs and
> > ALWAYS hungry.
> >
> > I worried about low oxygen, even though I have a bubbler wand. I saw
> > one of the smaller oto's rapidly swimming to the surface to "gulp"
> > some air and then swimming down again several times the night before
> > one died. The next day I dropped the temp from 79F to about 74F.
> > Now I just noticed the (surviving) smaller one doing the same today. I
> > took out enough water so that the filter exit is above the waterline
> > and there's some turbulence. I read that both types of fish like
> > turbulent water and are not bothered by the bubbles.
> >
> > If the smaller one is being crowded out for food, I'm not sure what to
> > do. I don't want to take him out for any reason--I don't think he
> > could take any more stress. If it's an oxygen problem I think I've
> > done all I can.
> >
> > Anyone with experience with this? I know dying fish is a fact of life,
> > but I'd like to do anything I can to minimize its occurence!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jason
>
>
>
> Hi Jason,
> I, too, have just recently been strapped with otocinclus woes. I have
a
> 10 gallon tank that was forming an algae problem. A couple of the walls
and
> most of the [artificial] plants had a fine layer on them. So I got an
> otocinclus who promptly cleared off the worst of the 2 walls with algae,
but
> then that was it. I was anxiously watching to see if the plants would
soon
> be cleaner, but they weren't. Then yesterday, a couple weeks after
getting
> the oto, I found him dead and stuck to the filter intake spout.
>
> I have algae wafers for my other tank, but I didn't put any in the 10
> gal. because I thought there was plenty of natural algae for the oto to
eat
> and didn't want to overfeed. Do they only eat certain types of algae, I
> wonder?
>
> Maybe an algae killing product would work better for us. Algae-fix...
> is that one? Sounds familiar or maybe that's one made for outdoor
ponds...
>
> Good luck to you!
> Lydia
>
>

Yes Otto's will only eat certain types of algae, can't remember of the top
of my head which ones, but a google search would give you the answer. Also
they don't like being alone, they live and work a lot better in groups (say
3-6).

Harry




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[IDzine01]

You're right Otos are delicate fish. Sometimes they die for seemingly
no reason at all. (Although there is a reason) I had 6 and am now down
to three. I had 3 in one 10 gal and three in another 10 gal. They all
went through the cycling process with no signs of stress. Many don't
make it at all, which is why you should wait until your tank is fully
cycled to introduce them. The reason my three died all within 24 hours
is because I had a rapid pH crash. My pH dropped from 7.6 to 6.0 and
they all were dead by the next day.

You were right to supplement their diet. Chances are you don't have
enough algae in your tank for them to survive. They do like the algae
wafers but I find what they really love is cucumber and zucchini.
Slice off a small circle, heat it in a cup of water in the microwave
so it softens and sinks. Be sure to rinse it in cool water first so
you're not throwing in a hot cucumber.

I doubt you're running out of oxygen. All I have is a bubble wand in
my tanks and I've never had any problem. Can you increase the air
flow? Also, you're doing 20% water changes once a week right? That
will introduce more oxygen into the water too. I really doubt thats
the problem.

I wouldn't change the water temp either. There is no benefit to having
your water 74 instead of 79. They do fine in upper 70 degree water and
the stability is much more important anyway.

Don't worry about one being bigger then the others. Chances are your
larger one is female which is why she is growing bigger faster.

I think you said they just moved in a week ago. What killed them may
have been stress caused by moving into a new tank. Also, who knows
what kind of diseases they may have gotten at the LFS. It's pretty
common to have otos get sick or die in the first couple of weeks (or
any fish) in a new tank.

They're great fish to keep. I love them. You can always try again.

I just took a photo of my otos fat belly a couple of weeks ago. Here's
the link for your viewing pleasure.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze59nqd/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/hangingoto.jpg



(Jason in Oakland) wrote in message
> I have a 12g tank, now more or less fully cycled (after two weeks in a
> loaded tank, I have no ammonia or nitrite--nitrate slowly climbing,
> presently at 10ppm).
>
> I have 5 golden barbs, and 2 otocincli.
>
> I had 3 oto's, but a few days ago, awoke to find one dead. Upside down
> at the bottom of my tank. He seemed thin and stiff.
>
> I know these are delicate fish, and not even a week ago, they all had
> endured 2+ppm nitrite during an unfortunate tank-fouling episode, and
> a traumatic move to a bucket overnight, and back.
>
> However, they seemed to have relaxed a bit by then. Maybe his immune
> system had been weakened, and he succumbed to something else?
>
> One of the remaining oto's is large, and growing larger, with a huge
> belly. The other is much smaller, not growing, and without that nice
> belly.
>
> I'm worried about the smaller one.
>
> I suspected two things: 1) starvation, and 2) low oxygen. Starvation
> because it seemed they had eaten up all the algae within a week or so
> and were constantly sucking up around for food. I bought some Hiraki
> algae wafers and dropped some in, but it seems to be fattening up the
> larger oto, and maybe even the golden barbs, who are total pigs and
> ALWAYS hungry.
>
> I worried about low oxygen, even though I have a bubbler wand. I saw
> one of the smaller oto's rapidly swimming to the surface to "gulp"
> some air and then swimming down again several times the night before
> one died. The next day I dropped the temp from 79F to about 74F.
> Now I just noticed the (surviving) smaller one doing the same today. I
> took out enough water so that the filter exit is above the waterline
> and there's some turbulence. I read that both types of fish like
> turbulent water and are not bothered by the bubbles.
>
> If the smaller one is being crowded out for food, I'm not sure what to
> do. I don't want to take him out for any reason--I don't think he
> could take any more stress. If it's an oxygen problem I think I've
> done all I can.
>
> Anyone with experience with this? I know dying fish is a fact of life,
> but I'd like to do anything I can to minimize its occurence!
>
> Thanks,
> Jason

[Mean_Chlorine]

(Jason in Oakland) wrote in message >...

> I suspected two things: 1) starvation, and 2) low oxygen.

Starvation is a classic cause of mortality for otos. They often, IME,
don't accept replacement foods at all, not even the peas, blanched
veggies etc used for other loricariids. So yeah, that may very well
have been the cause.

However, as others have pointed out, they don't like changes in water
chemistry, and my guess is that nitrite is what did it in.

On a personal note I will also add that heavy feeding with protein-
and fat-rich food is a good way of killing otos - as I found out when
I tried to fatten up 10 zebra otos with bloodworms.

If by 'gulping for air' you mean that they do a short rush to the
surface to swallow air, that is a natural behaviour for Otocinclus -
they've got a special appendix to their gut which is used to store
air. It's kindof a combined lung and swim bladder, so they do this
regardless of the oxygen level in the water.

[Jason in Oakland]

Thank you all for your advice.

As of this morning, the other two otos are still doing okay. I tried
the blanched zucchini, but only the golden barbs seemed to show any
interest. I added some phosphate-based buffering solution, which has
made the algae population explode. I think the otos will have plenty
to eat... (a good thing because I'm going out of town as well for a
week)

I know it seems improbable, but the tank is cycled. I check the water
chemistry every day and ammonia and nitrite are consistently at zero
(at least they have been since that scary spike), and nitrate
continues to climb. I did use Bio Spira, but it didn't kick in until a
week after I added it to the tank.

Thanks for the advice about otos needing to gulp air. Mine did exactly
as you described, Mean Chlorine--swam up to the surface to gobble some
air, and then went back down. I'm glad to hear it's normal behavior.