To Compost or Not to Compost

[Paul]

I am just finished making my new pond and an now considering starting to
move my plants into it. Currently they are potted in baskets with
aquatic compost. But this tends to leach out and gather on the bottom of
the pond. I was wondering if I can plant my plants just into pea single
and they will still do ok. I have several water lilies and some water
hawthorn.

thanks

Paul

[[email protected]]

use plastic water pots with no holes, use loam, top with gravel.
pea gravel doesnt usually work, of course bare root will work in a veggie filter tho.

water lilies dont do well in pea gravel, dont do all that well in veggie filters
either. Ingrid

Paul > wrote:
>I am just finished making my new pond and an now considering starting to
>move my plants into it. Currently they are potted in baskets with
>aquatic compost. But this tends to leach out and gather on the bottom of
>the pond. I was wondering if I can plant my plants just into pea single
>and they will still do ok. I have several water lilies and some water
>hawthorn.
>
>thanks
>
>Paul



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Paul]

That sounds good, Do they still try and jump pot?

Paul


wrote:
> use plastic water pots with no holes, use loam, top with gravel.
> pea gravel doesnt usually work, of course bare root will work in a veggie filter tho.
>
> water lilies dont do well in pea gravel, dont do all that well in veggie filters
> either. Ingrid
>
> Paul > wrote:
>> I am just finished making my new pond and an now considering starting to
>> move my plants into it. Currently they are potted in baskets with
>> aquatic compost. But this tends to leach out and gather on the bottom of
>> the pond. I was wondering if I can plant my plants just into pea single
>> and they will still do ok. I have several water lilies and some water
>> hawthorn.
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> Paul
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
> I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Derek Broughton]

Paul wrote:

> That sounds good, Do they still try and jump pot?

As long as they're getting good sunlight and nutrients - which they tend to
get in garden ponds - they're going to jump pots. That's why I ended up
always planting bare root - it makes dividing really simple :-) I just
wire the tuber to a rock. Others have had too much trouble with fish
nibbling the plants for that, though.
--
derek

[Koi-Lo]

"Paul" > wrote in message
...
> That sounds good, Do they still try and jump pot?
================
Yes! Most pond plants will spread rapidly and "jump their pots" in time.
Others drop so many seeds you'll see them coming up in other pots in your
pond.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria groups.*
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Richard Sexton]

Geez Ingrid is everything you post wrong?

In "Encyclopedia of the water lily" by Charles O Masters
it's suggested you use manure, not loam as loam has very
close to zero nutriative value. You'll still need to augment
with fertilizer spikes.

Loam. Yeee-ow. (shakes head)

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Derek Broughton]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> Geez Ingrid is everything you post wrong?
>
> In "Encyclopedia of the water lily" by Charles O Masters
> it's suggested you use manure, not loam as loam has very
> close to zero nutriative value. You'll still need to augment
> with fertilizer spikes.
>
> Loam. Yeee-ow. (shakes head)

Just because it was in a book doesn't make it true, any more than if it's on
a .edu site :-)

I completely stopped potting lilies. The only reason for soil of any kind
is if you have fish that keep nibbling on their roots. Then minimally
nutrient rich is good. Clay works because it actually binds some of the
nutrients, so it doesn't release them into the water as manure does. The
only problem with pea gravel is not that it doesn't provide nutrients -
it's just an almighty pain to try dividing a lily whose roots have grown
around a couple of kilos of gravel! The only thing wrong with Ingrid's
suggestion, ime, is that topping the soil with gravel still ends up with
the roots all around the gravel. It's only there to keep the koi out of
the plant, and I'd use much larger stones (after all, koi can move pea
gravel, anyway).

Manure is a really, really, stupid thing to add to a pond with fish. Fish
provide plenty of their own manure. The last thing you ever want to do in
a fish pond, if you can help it, is to add fertilizer. You want the plants
to take up as much of the nutrients as possible, so that the algae doesn't
get it and so that the fish don't have ammonia/nitrite problems.

I fasten a 6" lily tuber to a rock in Spring and drop them to 4-5'. By
August, they get so large that the tuber is around 18" and the foliage is
so bouyant the rock's a foot off the pond bottom.
--
derek

[Altum]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> use plastic water pots with no holes, use loam, top with gravel.
>> pea gravel doesnt usually work, of course bare root will work in a veggie
>> filter tho.
>>
>> water lilies dont do well in pea gravel, dont do all that well in veggie
>> filters
>> either. Ingrid
>
> otoh, I've had success with lilies in pea gravel (and bare root). I'd agree
> on the veggie filter though - there's usually too much flow for them to be
> happy.

How do you fertilize them bare root? That sounds like a good way to go
for my little barrels.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[CanadianCowboy©]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> use plastic water pots with no holes, use loam, top with gravel.
>> pea gravel doesnt usually work, of course bare root will work in a veggie
>> filter tho.
>>
>> water lilies dont do well in pea gravel, dont do all that well in veggie
>> filters
>> either. Ingrid
>
> otoh, I've had success with lilies in pea gravel (and bare root). I'd agree
> on the veggie filter though - there's usually too much flow for them to be
> happy.

Bare root Lilies ??? Interesting concept.

I may try this but I did have trouble with fish nibbling at the roots of
my hyacinth which allowed them to go yellow and eventually die.

How do I stop this? I feed the fish everyday during the summer months .

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> Geez Ingrid is everything you post wrong?
>
> In "Encyclopedia of the water lily" by Charles O Masters
> it's suggested you use manure, not loam as loam has very
> close to zero nutriative value. You'll still need to augment
> with fertilizer spikes.
>
> Loam. Yeee-ow. (shakes head)
=====================
I use rich topsoil that collects from my neighbor's pasture in the runoff
area on my property. It settles there free for the tanking. I add a broken
Jobe's Rose spike and they flower from mid spring to first good frost. :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on rec.ponds.*
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Derek Broughton]

Altum wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>>> use plastic water pots with no holes, use loam, top with gravel.
>>> pea gravel doesnt usually work, of course bare root will work in a
>>> veggie filter tho.
>>>
>>> water lilies dont do well in pea gravel, dont do all that well in veggie
>>> filters
>>> either. Ingrid
>>
>> otoh, I've had success with lilies in pea gravel (and bare root). I'd
>> agree on the veggie filter though - there's usually too much flow for
>> them to be happy.
>
> How do you fertilize them bare root? That sounds like a good way to go
> for my little barrels.
>
You don't. I probably wouldn't do that in a little barrel either.
Bare-root planting is for ponds with healthy fish populations. The fish
produce the fertilizer, and the plants get it more easily if they're not in
soil.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

CanadianCowboy© wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>>> use plastic water pots with no holes, use loam, top with gravel.
>>> pea gravel doesnt usually work, of course bare root will work in a
>>> veggie filter tho.
>>>
>>> water lilies dont do well in pea gravel, dont do all that well in veggie
>>> filters
>>> either. Ingrid
>>
>> otoh, I've had success with lilies in pea gravel (and bare root). I'd
>> agree on the veggie filter though - there's usually too much flow for
>> them to be happy.
>
> Bare root Lilies ??? Interesting concept.
>
> I may try this but I did have trouble with fish nibbling at the roots of
> my hyacinth which allowed them to go yellow and eventually die.

While fish _will_ nibble the roots of W.Hyacinth, are you sure that was the
cause? Hyacinths often fail to thrive when there's a potassium (iirc - I
always get my potassium/phosphorus mixed up) deficiency. They go yellow,
_then_ they lose their roots.
>
> How do I stop this? I feed the fish everyday during the summer months .

If it is the fish, netting around the roots helps.
--
derek

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Derek Broughton > wrote:
>>> otoh, I've had success with lilies in pea gravel (and bare root). I'd
>>> agree on the veggie filter though - there's usually too much flow for
>>> them to be happy.
>>
>> How do you fertilize them bare root? That sounds like a good way to go
>> for my little barrels.
>>
>You don't. I probably wouldn't do that in a little barrel either.
>Bare-root planting is for ponds with healthy fish populations. The fish
>produce the fertilizer, and the plants get it more easily if they're not in
>soil.

State of the art 1904 thinking. Innes would agree with you. But we've
come a long way since then and proper plant nutrition needs much much more
tha fish waste. They will *grow* to be sure, but they will grow much much
better with proper food.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[CanadianCowboy©]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> CanadianCowboy© wrote:
>
>> Derek Broughton wrote:
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> use plastic water pots with no holes, use loam, top with gravel.
>>>> pea gravel doesnt usually work, of course bare root will work in a
>>>> veggie filter tho.
>>>>
>>>> water lilies dont do well in pea gravel, dont do all that well in veggie
>>>> filters
>>>> either. Ingrid
>>> otoh, I've had success with lilies in pea gravel (and bare root). I'd
>>> agree on the veggie filter though - there's usually too much flow for
>>> them to be happy.
>> Bare root Lilies ??? Interesting concept.
>>
>> I may try this but I did have trouble with fish nibbling at the roots of
>> my hyacinth which allowed them to go yellow and eventually die.
>
> While fish _will_ nibble the roots of W.Hyacinth, are you sure that was the
> cause? Hyacinths often fail to thrive when there's a potassium (iirc - I
> always get my potassium/phosphorus mixed up) deficiency. They go yellow,
> _then_ they lose their roots.
>> How do I stop this? I feed the fish everyday during the summer months .
>
> If it is the fish, netting around the roots helps.

I didn't add any fertilizer to the pond for the hyacinth. It was my
first year last year with these plants. Should I give them any
treatment other than throwing them in.

Thanks in advance !

[Koi-Lo]

"CanadianCowboy©" > wrote in message
. ..
> I didn't add any fertilizer to the pond for the hyacinth. It was my first
> year last year with these plants. Should I give them any treatment other
> than throwing them in.
========================
I add about 2 heaping Tbs. Potassium (for gardens) when I add the floating
plants. That's the ONLY fertilizer I add to the pond water. Koi will still
nibble the roots to the point where my water hyacinth doesn't thrive.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on rec.ponds*.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Altum]

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "CanadianCowboy©" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> I didn't add any fertilizer to the pond for the hyacinth. It was my
>> first year last year with these plants. Should I give them any
>> treatment other than throwing them in.
> ========================
> I add about 2 heaping Tbs. Potassium (for gardens) when I add the
> floating plants. That's the ONLY fertilizer I add to the pond water.
> Koi will still nibble the roots to the point where my water hyacinth
> doesn't thrive.

I have a light fish load in my barrel pond, so I have to add potassium
nitrate for mine. If you add a bit of potassium phosphate, they'll all
flower. Sometimes they look a touch chlorotic and then I add some
hydroponic iron/trace element fertilizer.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[[email protected]]

well I got some of those palm sized river rocks in there with gravel around, but yes,
eventually I find them reaching over the rim. And I have a large short black tub for
the one lily I have covers most of the pond. I think it is 24 inch diameter. this
Texas dawn is huge. http://weloveteaching.com/mypond/7-15-2003f.jpg
it covers most of 1/2 of the pond. it sits on a ledge.
Ingrid

Paul > wrote:

>That sounds good, Do they still try and jump pot?
>
>Paul


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[[email protected]]

for koi, I do use those big palm sized river rock to keep the kids out of the pot. I
only repot every 3 years, and altho it is messy I dont have a problem with the roots
wrapped around the gravel. I set up the new tub with good loam been sitting in water
for a few hours, just plunge the root down into the muck then bring it back up to the
correct height. plug in the fert tabs and cover with rocks and gravel.

my comment about pea gravel is what I been told by Marilyn Buscher
http://home.wi.rr.com/windyoaks/ who wholesales to the Illinois and Wisconsin. She
has tried almost everything out there to make dividing, transplant and transport
easier.
Ingrid

Derek Broughton > wrote:
The
>only problem with pea gravel is not that it doesn't provide nutrients -
>it's just an almighty pain to try dividing a lily whose roots have grown
>around a couple of kilos of gravel! The only thing wrong with Ingrid's
>suggestion, ime, is that topping the soil with gravel still ends up with
>the roots all around the gravel. It's only there to keep the koi out of
>the plant, and I'd use much larger stones (after all, koi can move pea
>gravel, anyway).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Koi-Lo]

"Altum" > wrote in message
. com...
> I have a light fish load in my barrel pond, so I have to add potassium
> nitrate for mine. If you add a bit of potassium phosphate, they'll all
> flower. Sometimes they look a touch chlorotic and then I add some
> hydroponic iron/trace element fertilizer.
=======================
Do you know a good online place to buy hydroponic fertilizers? I can't find
anywhere local that sells the stuff.

Thanks.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on rec.ponds.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

Koi-Lo wrote:
> "CanadianCowboy©" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > I didn't add any fertilizer to the pond for the hyacinth. It was my first
> > year last year with these plants. Should I give them any treatment other
> > than throwing them in.
> ========================
> I add about 2 heaping Tbs. Potassium (for gardens) when I add the floating
> plants. That's the ONLY fertilizer I add to the pond water. Koi will still
> nibble the roots to the point where my water hyacinth doesn't thrive.
>

Carolyn Adamo Gulley
3245 North Lamar Road Mount Juliet TN 37122-7806
Phone 615-459-9345

Is a confirmed liar and slanderer, all around Usenet Kook.
Before plaguing ARJW with her nonsense, she use to plague the Health NG
do a google search on Yarrow / windsong / Carol for more details.

http://tinyurl.com/99azt
http://tinyurl.com/87ow4
http://tinyurl.com/d6t5m
http://tinyurl.com/aheek
http://tinyurl.com/ck97r
http://tinyurl.com/cm3dp
http://tinyurl.com/8bscg
http://tinyurl.com/7epdg
http://tinyurl.com/bya3z

When she is best by a man she accuse him of stalking

http://tinyurl.com/8wryt

She engages people in senseless debates about absolutely nothing.
Her intent on ARJW is to slander JW's, and she has been doing this for
the last 10 years.
She also claims she is an expert on Fis and aquariums. This has been a
confirmed lie as well. All her advice comes from other sources, which
plagerize and claims as her own.

Before you reply to her on any topic , you may want to ask her a few
things or only one.
_Where does she get her information?
_Can her information be verified?
_Is the information up to date?
_What is the purpose of her post?

On the topic of JW's does she present reliable facts about JW's
or sling mud on a religious organization in good standing in almost
every country in the world?


O the topic of fish, ask where she got her information, and since she
replies on several aquarium newsgroups, where does she gets the time to
do what she claim she does?
an analysis oof he usenet posting indicates sge is glued to her
keyboard harrassing JW's.

Carol is well known Nut case in Mt Juliet TN. Don't belive me? Call
her Sheriff, they will tell you stories; call them yourselves:

Rutherford County Sheriff's Office
940 New Salem Highway
Murfreesboro, Tennessee 37129
615-898-7770

In any case ask her for evidence of her claims before proceeding with
your conversation with her, if not you may be end up wasting your time
and bandwidth on discussing subjects based on fraudulent and
fabricated information. This is how she manipulates clueless
bystanders in participating with her distributing false information
elsewhere?

Facts about Carol:

*She can never present evidence.
*She never reveals the source of her info (because there is none). Her
common reply, is: "everybody already knows". If everybody knew, why
bring it up?
*She always hides her identity. And change her header to avoid
killfiles. A TOS offense
*She cuts and paste, rewrite postings, and will even forge e-mail
addresses
;which her ISP allows her to do. Just ask them:



If your newsgroups has been victim of Carol's MCP and ECP that is off
topic you can report her. Her account is dpc6682112001.direcpc.com and
you may report her by calling 1-800-DirecPC, by emailing us at
, or by writing to:

DirecPC
Customer Care Center
11717 Exploration Lane
Germantown, MD 20876 USA

Her use of remailers can still be traced to her account.No American ISP
like to be
associated with Hate Speech no matter if Hate speech is protected
under the First. It affects their commercial interest.
Then you can contact your own ISP and have them add them to their
block List Direcpc.com

Why does Carol behave as she does?


Carolyn Adamo Gulley of Mt Juliet Tn. Is a life long underachiever.
She did not finish High school in NYC, and lived as a biker gangsters
in the 60's and 70's. She claims on her former website that she has 2
failed
marriages and blames God for her poor choices. It is alleged that she
lost custody of her only son due to substance abuse, (never been
proven however). Dumped in TN by her Second husband, Quote-quote, with
no place to go.


She also has failed attempts at being a JW. She could never attain
their moral standards as dictated in the scriptures, and thus been at
war with them ever since. This has made her a very mentally unstable
woman, her hatred is intense, and due to biker-substance abuse
lifestyle, she now needs aid of a pacemaker.

By reporting her to her ISP, she is made aware, that she is alone in
her insane crusade full of false hoods and forgeries., and that you
the reader does not support hate speech against any religion or person.


o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:27:29 +0000 (UTC), (Richard
Sexton) wrote:

>Geez Ingrid is everything you post wrong?
>
>In "Encyclopedia of the water lily" by Charles O Masters
>it's suggested you use manure,

Yeee-ow, you use manure, you get green pond. Been there, done that. My
ponds were ready for St. Pat's day that year. I'd only redone 2 pots,
pulled them out, used my unadulterated sandy soil, clear pond in 2 days,
thanks to a good filter. ~ jan ;o)


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Altum]

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "Altum" > wrote in message
> . com...
>> I have a light fish load in my barrel pond, so I have to add potassium
>> nitrate for mine. If you add a bit of potassium phosphate, they'll
>> all flower. Sometimes they look a touch chlorotic and then I add some
>> hydroponic iron/trace element fertilizer.
> =======================
> Do you know a good online place to buy hydroponic fertilizers? I can't
> find anywhere local that sells the stuff.
>
> Thanks.

http://www.gregwatson.com. Plantex CSM+B is great stuff and he carries
the bulk potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[~ janj]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:16:24 -0500, CanadianCowboy© >
wrote:

>I didn't add any fertilizer to the pond for the hyacinth. It was my
>first year last year with these plants. Should I give them any
>treatment other than throwing them in.
>
>Thanks in advance !

Before throwing any fertilizer in, check your pH. If the pH is too high or
low, you can throw all the fert. you want in, and the plant will still fail
to thrive. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[CanadianCowboy©]

~ janj wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:16:24 -0500, CanadianCowboy© >
> wrote:
>
>> I didn't add any fertilizer to the pond for the hyacinth. It was my
>> first year last year with these plants. Should I give them any
>> treatment other than throwing them in.
>>
>> Thanks in advance !
>
> Before throwing any fertilizer in, check your pH. If the pH is too high or
> low, you can throw all the fert. you want in, and the plant will still fail
> to thrive. ~ jan
>
>
> ~ jan/WA
> Zone 7a

Do you know "off hand" what the PH level should be ?
What is the most economical way of testing ?
What can I do to raise or lower it ?

Thanks !

[~ janj]

>Texas dawn is huge. http://weloveteaching.com/mypond/7-15-2003f.jpg
>it covers most of 1/2 of the pond. it sits on a ledge. Ingrid

Absolutely gorgeous picture. The water, the weathered the wood, the
greenery/flowers, really cool. Reminds me of being on a dock (weathered
wood) on the lake I grew up by. I was involved with "fish"ing then too. ;)
~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[~ janj]

>> Before throwing any fertilizer in, check your pH. If the pH is too high or
>> low, you can throw all the fert. you want in, and the plant will still fail
>> to thrive. ~ jan
>
>Do you know "off hand" what the PH level should be ?
>What is the most economical way of testing ?
>What can I do to raise or lower it ?

For most aquatic plants that we hobbyist use, 6.8 - 8.4. As far as a test
kit, I like the Hagen/Nutrafin Wide Range test. It tests from 4.5-9.0. One
should have on hand a KH test also. Without a good KH reading your pH will
jump all over the place.

Fixing a pH problem is on a case by case basis, but to raise pH, baking
soda works great, plus it adds buffering. To lower pH is a touchier subject
and I won't address it at this time, questions need to be asked an answered
before preceding with lowering one's pH. ~ jan :o)


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Koi-Lo]

"Altum" > wrote in message
m...
>
> http://www.gregwatson.com. Plantex CSM+B is great stuff and he carries
> the bulk potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate.
=================
Thanks. It's the *micronutrients* I can't locate such as water soluble
iron, manganese, boron, cobalt etc. that plants need. I'll check this place
out.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on rec.ponds.*
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Derek Broughton]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> In article >,
> Derek Broughton > wrote:
>>>> otoh, I've had success with lilies in pea gravel (and bare root). I'd
>>>> agree on the veggie filter though - there's usually too much flow for
>>>> them to be happy.
>>>
>>> How do you fertilize them bare root? That sounds like a good way to go
>>> for my little barrels.
>>>
>>You don't. I probably wouldn't do that in a little barrel either.
>>Bare-root planting is for ponds with healthy fish populations. The fish
>>produce the fertilizer, and the plants get it more easily if they're not
>>in soil.
>
> State of the art 1904 thinking. Innes would agree with you. But we've
> come a long way since then and proper plant nutrition needs much much more
> tha fish waste. They will *grow* to be sure, but they will grow much much
> better with proper food.

Oh, crap (literally). I had a not very heavily populated 5000 gallon pond.
My deep lilies would, every year, develop sufficient foliage to lift the
tubers a foot or two off the bottom of the pond. We're talking about 18"
or longer tubers, with 100sq.ft. of pads, and dozens of blooms. If I could
have made them grow better with "food" I'd have to have been nuts to do it!

Do you actually have a pond Richard? I _know_ you're an aquarium expert,
but I seriously doubt your pond experience. Compost is NOT a good idea for
a planted _fish_ pond.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> for koi, I do use those big palm sized river rock to keep the kids out of
> the pot. I only repot every 3 years, and altho it is messy I dont have a
> problem with the roots
> wrapped around the gravel. I set up the new tub with good loam been
> sitting in water for a few hours, just plunge the root down into the muck
> then bring it back up to the
> correct height. plug in the fert tabs and cover with rocks and gravel.
>
> my comment about pea gravel is what I been told by Marilyn Buscher
> http://home.wi.rr.com/windyoaks/ who wholesales to the Illinois and
> Wisconsin. She
> has tried almost everything out there to make dividing, transplant and
> transport easier.

Well, I know people do it, and I guess others haven't had as much trouble as
I did, but I can't see how dividing anything can be easier than dividing
bare-root lilies :-) Richard's comment that "they will grow much much
better with proper food" definitely applies when you're a commercial grower
- then you want to fertilize and divide as often as possible. Me, I stick
to bare-root because they do well enough that I have to divide annually.
--
derek

[Koi-Lo]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Well, I know people do it, and I guess others haven't had as much trouble
> as
> I did, but I can't see how dividing anything can be easier than dividing
> bare-root lilies :-) Richard's comment that "they will grow much much
> better with proper food" definitely applies when you're a commercial
> grower
> - then you want to fertilize and divide as often as possible. Me, I stick
> to bare-root because they do well enough that I have to divide annually.
=================
The year I tried to grow mine bare-root and a few in just pea gravel they
didn't thrive at all. They grew small leaves and there were no flowers. I
went back to using rich topsoil and Jobe's fertilizer spikes. They grow
leaves as large as dinner plates and flower for several months.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria Groups.*
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

thank you, thank you. and now we got pillows of moss growing around the waterfall.
is very nice. and the tall bunches of cyperus made it thru the winter in the
basement so spring is going to look better than in years past. Ingrid

~ janj > wrote:

>>Texas dawn is huge. http://weloveteaching.com/mypond/7-15-2003f.jpg
>>it covers most of 1/2 of the pond. it sits on a ledge. Ingrid
>
>Absolutely gorgeous picture. The water, the weathered the wood, the
>greenery/flowers, really cool. Reminds me of being on a dock (weathered
>wood) on the lake I grew up by. I was involved with "fish"ing then too. ;)
>~ jan
>
>
>~ jan/WA
>Zone 7a



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Andrew Burgess]

CanadianCowboy© wrote:

> I may try this but I did have trouble with fish nibbling at the roots of
> my hyacinth which allowed them to go yellow and eventually die.
> How do I stop this? I feed the fish everyday during the summer months .

Feed more often. Many books recommend 2x day. 3x wouldn't hurt IMHO.

[Andrew Burgess]

"Koi-Lo" > writes:

>Thanks. It's the *micronutrients* I can't locate such as water soluble
>iron, manganese, boron, cobalt etc. that plants need. I'll check this place
>out.

I've used a product that is intended to provide trace elements for citrus,
"Citrus Growers Mix" or something like that. All chelated minerals. Water
soluble.

HTH

[~ janj]

>thank you, thank you. and now we got pillows of moss growing around the waterfall.
>is very nice. and the tall bunches of cyperus made it thru the winter in the
>basement so spring is going to look better than in years past. Ingrid

Speaking of moss, my little ferny moss that grows in the stream did really
well over winter. I guess it needs just a little moisture to keep it alive.
Last year, where it didn't get hardly any moisture it died. I put more in
that area, and it is still green this spring. :) ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Koi-Lo]

"Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
...
> "Koi-Lo" > writes:
>
>>Thanks. It's the *micronutrients* I can't locate such as water soluble
>>iron, manganese, boron, cobalt etc. that plants need. I'll check this
>>place
>>out.
>
> I've used a product that is intended to provide trace elements for citrus,
> "Citrus Growers Mix" or something like that. All chelated minerals. Water
> soluble.
>
> HTH
===========================
Yes, that's what I need. There's a huge Nursery and Greenhouse in my area.
I think before getting it on the net and having to pay S&H charges (which
can be 1/2 the cost of the product) I will see if they can order me
something like that. I need to talk to the owner instead of the gal at the
register. Mennonites run the place and I know they grow much of their own
food outside the city.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58

~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
~ janj > wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:27:29 +0000 (UTC), (Richard
>Sexton) wrote:
>
>>Geez Ingrid is everything you post wrong?
>>
>>In "Encyclopedia of the water lily" by Charles O Masters
>>it's suggested you use manure,
>
>Yeee-ow, you use manure, you get green pond. Been there, done that. My
>ponds were ready for St. Pat's day that year. I'd only redone 2 pots,
>pulled them out, used my unadulterated sandy soil, clear pond in 2 days,
>thanks to a good filter. ~ jan ;o)

You seal it with fine beach sand. I use it in aquariums.

http://images.aquaria.net/tanks/rjs/tk-1/

This tank has had manure under the 3" of beach sand for 7 years.

Some poeple get green water without manure, but it's possible to
use it and not have green water.

The net is great and all but books are still good. Masters book has
lots of pictutes of great and clear ponds with manute in the lily
pots.



--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Derek Broughton > wrote:
>>>You don't. I probably wouldn't do that in a little barrel either.
>>>Bare-root planting is for ponds with healthy fish populations. The fish
>>>produce the fertilizer, and the plants get it more easily if they're not
>>>in soil.
>>
>> State of the art 1904 thinking. Innes would agree with you. But we've
>> come a long way since then and proper plant nutrition needs much much more
>> tha fish waste. They will *grow* to be sure, but they will grow much much
>> better with proper food.
>
>Oh, crap (literally).

Your opinion, while interesting, has been disproved. In the past fifteen
years we've figured out how to make those heavily planted crystal clear
tanks full of fast growing plants like only the dutch used to do. IN
a nutshell what was missing was the things NOT in fish poop. Innes also
contended "fish fertilize plants" and ferilization was "a noble but
foolish experiment". He was wrong, as we've learned, but he did write that
in the 1899-1904 timeframe when he wrote his pond and then aquarium book.

>I had a not very heavily populated 5000 gallon pond.
>My deep lilies would, every year, develop sufficient foliage to lift the
>tubers a foot or two off the bottom of the pond. We're talking about 18"
>or longer tubers, with 100sq.ft. of pads, and dozens of blooms. If I could
>have made them grow better with "food" I'd have to have been nuts to do it!

Ok, so you think you're nuts, but the point still stands. With proper
feeding they'll do *better*.

>Do you actually have a pond Richard? I _know_ you're an aquarium expert,
>but I seriously doubt your pond experience. Compost is NOT a good idea for
>a planted _fish_ pond.

I wrote about my pond in some back issue of TFH a few years back. I Was thinking
of doing a few more which is why I'm here.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>> While fish _will_ nibble the roots of W.Hyacinth, are you sure that was the
>> cause? Hyacinths often fail to thrive when there's a potassium (iirc - I
>> always get my potassium/phosphorus mixed up) deficiency. They go yellow,
>> _then_ they lose their roots.
>>> How do I stop this? I feed the fish everyday during the summer months .
>>
>> If it is the fish, netting around the roots helps.
>
>I didn't add any fertilizer to the pond for the hyacinth. It was my
>first year last year with these plants. Should I give them any
>treatment other than throwing them in.

Get then to a hydroponics.com franchise. Use potassium sulphate
or potassium nitrate (if you're nitrates are low). And use the
iron+trace mix. These are whan you're deficient in.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>I add about 2 heaping Tbs. Potassium (for gardens) when I add the floating
>plants. That's the ONLY fertilizer I add to the pond water. Koi will still
>nibble the roots to the point where my water hyacinth doesn't thrive.

You're low on iron (+traces).

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>Do you know a good online place to buy hydroponic fertilizers? I can't find
>anywhere local that sells the stuff.

http://gregwatson.com

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>Thanks. It's the *micronutrients* I can't locate such as water soluble
>iron, manganese, boron, cobalt etc. that plants need. I'll check this place
>out.

Iron+traces is always found that way. You don't dose them individually.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
~ janj > wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:16:24 -0500, CanadianCowboy© >
>wrote:
>
>>I didn't add any fertilizer to the pond for the hyacinth. It was my
>>first year last year with these plants. Should I give them any
>>treatment other than throwing them in.
>>
>>Thanks in advance !
>
>Before throwing any fertilizer in, check your pH. If the pH is too high or
>low, you can throw all the fert. you want in, and the plant will still fail
>to thrive. ~ jan

News to me. I've not noticed any problem with a pH bewteen 4.5 and 9.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
~ janj > wrote:
>Fixing a pH problem is on a case by case basis, but to raise pH, baking
>soda works great, plus it adds buffering. To lower pH is a touchier subject
>and I won't address it at this time, questions need to be asked an answered
>before preceding with lowering one's pH. ~ jan :o)

Too high a pH isn't really a problem. Plants will lower it just by growing
through biogenic decalcification. Old water gets more acid with just fish
in it too. Loweing pH is not the wisest thinf to do and commercial fish
products to do this have nasty side effects.

Vinegar can be used, as can nitric or hydrochloric acid. DO NOT do this
lightly or without fully understanding what you're doing.

It's all good till somebody loses an eye.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[~ janj]

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 (Richard Sexton) wrote:

>News to me. I've not noticed any problem with a pH bewteen 4.5 and 9.

I didn't mean to imply they would die, the normal visual affect for most
plants is just a slow down in growth, (light bulb moment?) making one think
they need more fertilizer.

IME, an according to the Master Gardener information we're given through
the local University, pH is important. In the case of water hyacinth
especially, I've seen it die when pH hit 8.5 and up. Other plants in the
same pond, slow down. Fix the pH and things turn right around.

Regarding lowering pH information. I don't give out that info till I know
what's in the pond, what the pond is made of and several other bits of
info. Handing out that information tends to make people think they can now
"fix it". When there may be no reason to fix anything. ;o) ~ jan

--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>Thanks. It's the *micronutrients* I can't locate such as water soluble
>>iron, manganese, boron, cobalt etc. that plants need. I'll check this
>>place
>>out.
>
> Iron+traces is always found that way. You don't dose them individually.
=================
I didn't plan to do it individually. I wouldn't know how much of each to
add. I was hoping to find them in a form I could just add to water and use,
like those houseplant fertilizers I have for my houseplants. I wanted the
person to know what I was looking for.........
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>Do you know a good online place to buy hydroponic fertilizers? I can't
>>find
>>anywhere local that sells the stuff.
>
> http://gregwatson.com
=========================
Thanks Richard. If the Mennonites can't order it for me I'll buy online.
:-) Being FRUGAL I always try to locate stuff locally if possible and
remembered that Mennonite Greenhouse.....
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>I add about 2 heaping Tbs. Potassium (for gardens) when I add the floating
>>plants. That's the ONLY fertilizer I add to the pond water. Koi will
>>still
>>nibble the roots to the point where my water hyacinth doesn't thrive.
>
> You're low on iron (+traces).
=========================
That may be but I was unable to find any liquid Iron safe for fish. I
suspected iron might be involved. I do add Ironite to the planted pond
plant's topsoil and they are always nice and green with lots of flowers. I
was hoping it would leach out into the water and some may be leaching -
because in the goldfish ponds they get a foot tall!!! The water lettuce
grows as big around as dinner plates. But in the 2000g koi pond they don't
do well at all. I'm definitely going to get some micronutrients before the
season begins in earnest here. I can't put out the floaters here until late
April so still have time.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Derek Broughton]

Richard Sexton wrote:

>>I had a not very heavily populated 5000 gallon pond.
>>My deep lilies would, every year, develop sufficient foliage to lift the
>>tubers a foot or two off the bottom of the pond. We're talking about 18"
>>or longer tubers, with 100sq.ft. of pads, and dozens of blooms. If I
>>could have made them grow better with "food" I'd have to have been nuts to
>>do it!
>
> Ok, so you think you're nuts, but the point still stands. With proper
> feeding they'll do *better*.
>
Why would you want better? As I said to Ingrid - it's useful if you're
raising them to sell, but hobbyists just want to get the maximum number of
blooms, sufficient surface coverage and a minimum of removing and dividing.
Adding nutrients to a fish pond is not generally desirable.
--
derek

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Derek Broughton > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>>>I had a not very heavily populated 5000 gallon pond.
>>>My deep lilies would, every year, develop sufficient foliage to lift the
>>>tubers a foot or two off the bottom of the pond. We're talking about 18"
>>>or longer tubers, with 100sq.ft. of pads, and dozens of blooms. If I
>>>could have made them grow better with "food" I'd have to have been nuts to
>>>do it!
>>
>> Ok, so you think you're nuts, but the point still stands. With proper
>> feeding they'll do *better*.
>>
>Why would you want better? As I said to Ingrid - it's useful if you're
>raising them to sell, but hobbyists just want to get the maximum number of
>blooms, sufficient surface coverage and a minimum of removing and dividing.
>Adding nutrients to a fish pond is not generally desirable.

I'm not tellig you what you want or what is desirable, I'm just
telling you how things work since you had the mistaken belief
that "plants get all they need from fish waste", that's all.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>>Thanks. It's the *micronutrients* I can't locate such as water soluble
>>>iron, manganese, boron, cobalt etc. that plants need. I'll check this
>>>place
>>>out.
>>
>> Iron+traces is always found that way. You don't dose them individually.
>=================
>I didn't plan to do it individually.

Ok.

>I wouldn't know how much of each to add. I was hoping to find them in a form
>I could just add to water and use, like those houseplant fertilizers I have
>for my houseplants. I wanted the person to know what I was looking for.........

Right. Iron+traces. It's harder to find just chalated iron than (chelated) iron
plus traces.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>>I add about 2 heaping Tbs. Potassium (for gardens) when I add the floating
>>>plants. That's the ONLY fertilizer I add to the pond water. Koi will
>>>still
>>>nibble the roots to the point where my water hyacinth doesn't thrive.
>>
>> You're low on iron (+traces).
>=========================
>That may be but I was unable to find any liquid Iron safe for fish. I

Huh? It's all good. Even washers in the substrate will work. I do that too.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

>especially, I've seen it die when pH hit 8.5 and up. Other plants in the

The first question I'd ask is what is causing the pH to get thaty high. It
may be the chemical making the ph change that's thwe problem not the pH itself.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article >,
>>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>>>Do you know a good online place to buy hydroponic fertilizers? I can't
>>>>find
>>>>anywhere local that sells the stuff.
>>>
>>> http://gregwatson.com
>>=========================
>>Thanks Richard. If the Mennonites can't order it for me I'll buy online.
>>:-) Being FRUGAL I always try to locate stuff locally if possible and
>>remembered that Mennonite Greenhouse.....
>
> Uness they buy it in huge quantities and sell you some in a palstic
> bag it's iunlikey to be as cheap as you can get from Greg, even with
> shipping.
=====================
I'll know in a week or two as I pass there on the way to one of my favorite
LFS. ;-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article >,
>>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>>>I add about 2 heaping Tbs. Potassium (for gardens) when I add the
>>>>floating
>>>>plants. That's the ONLY fertilizer I add to the pond water. Koi will
>>>>still
>>>>nibble the roots to the point where my water hyacinth doesn't thrive.
>>>
>>> You're low on iron (+traces).
>>=========================
>>That may be but I was unable to find any liquid Iron safe for fish. I
>
> Huh? It's all good. Even washers in the substrate will work. I do that
> too.
=================
Do you think scattering the Ironite over the thick groups of pond plants
would do the trick? It has to dissolve in the water..... They encircle 2
1/2 sides of my pond and have all grown together into one monster clump.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>Do you think scattering the Ironite over the thick groups of pond plants
>would do the trick? It has to dissolve in the water..... They encircle 2
>1/2 sides of my pond and have all grown together into one monster clump.

You already dose iron in your tanks right? This is no different.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Derek Broughton]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> I'm not tellig you what you want or what is desirable, I'm just
> telling you how things work since you had the mistaken belief
> that "plants get all they need from fish waste", that's all.

There's nothing mistaken about it. My _lilies_ get more than sufficient
nutrients when kept bare root (I never once suggested _all_ plants, and in
fact have had trouble with Hyacinths specifically _because_ they can't get
everything they need in my pond, without additives). Please don't use
quotes when you're not quoting.
--
derek

[[email protected]]

there is something about moss .... my DH loves the moss too, so he took a little
pinch and put it on the side of the pond where the water splashes and now there is a
nice little pillow of it there too. Ingrid

~ janj > wrote:

>>thank you, thank you. and now we got pillows of moss growing around the waterfall.
>>is very nice. and the tall bunches of cyperus made it thru the winter in the
>>basement so spring is going to look better than in years past. Ingrid
>
>Speaking of moss, my little ferny moss that grows in the stream did really
>well over winter. I guess it needs just a little moisture to keep it alive.
>Last year, where it didn't get hardly any moisture it died. I put more in
>that area, and it is still green this spring. :) ~ jan
>
>
>~ jan/WA
>Zone 7a



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
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Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[[email protected]]

it is in the nature of fish to nibble tiny things all day long. feeding fish more
isnt going to save fine roots. that is one reason I installed a veggie filter. it
is the roots drag all the wastes out of the water.
Ingrid

Andrew Burgess > wrote:

>CanadianCowboy© wrote:
>
>> I may try this but I did have trouble with fish nibbling at the roots of
>> my hyacinth which allowed them to go yellow and eventually die.
>> How do I stop this? I feed the fish everyday during the summer months .
>
>Feed more often. Many books recommend 2x day. 3x wouldn't hurt IMHO.



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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
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I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
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Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>Do you think scattering the Ironite over the thick groups of pond plants
>>would do the trick? It has to dissolve in the water..... They encircle 2
>>1/2 sides of my pond and have all grown together into one monster clump.
>
> You already dose iron in your tanks right? This is no differ
=======================
I'm talking about my outdoor ponds, not my aquariums.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
> wrote:
>there is something about moss .... my DH loves the moss too, so he took a little
>pinch and put it on the side of the pond where the water splashes and now there is a
>nice little pillow of it there too. Ingrid

Moss is my secret weopan. Any tank with moss has a hard time growing alage. I've
experiemented with all sorts of plants tryiong to keep betta jars cleanm longer
and noting works like moss. I suspect if you threw a garbage bag of the stuff
into a pond it owuld have a dramatic effect of water clarity. It sure works
that way in aquaria.

In Asis the moss that grows around ponds is the stuff we grow in fishtanks. It
even grows in lawns there.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Derek Broughton > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>> I'm not tellig you what you want or what is desirable, I'm just
>> telling you how things work since you had the mistaken belief
>> that "plants get all they need from fish waste", that's all.
>
>There's nothing mistaken about it. My _lilies_ get more than sufficient
>nutrients when kept bare root (I never once suggested _all_ plants, and in
>fact have had trouble with Hyacinths specifically _because_ they can't get
>everything they need in my pond, without additives). Please don't use
>quotes when you're not quoting.

I was quoting Innes' 1904 work. It's just coincidnece it's the same
as what you said. If you believe your plants are geting 100% of what
they need go read _The Optimum Aquarium_ by Horst and Kipper, they
explain the difference between the water where plants grow and tapwater
and water used to cuylrute fished and plants, what the deficiences arem
how they get used up and how to replenish them.

I understand if you're doing ok you can't imagine you're doing anything
wrong and if you're happy with yout plant growth, great. But the idea
"plants get all th enutrients they need from fish" is true you are
quite mistaken.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>>Do you think scattering the Ironite over the thick groups of pond plants
>>>would do the trick? It has to dissolve in the water..... They encircle 2
>>>1/2 sides of my pond and have all grown together into one monster clump.
>>
>> You already dose iron in your tanks right? This is no differ
>=======================
>I'm talking about my outdoor ponds, not my aquariums.

Yeah I got that. Water is water. The size and shape of the container
doesn't matter.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> Moss is my secret weopan. Any tank with moss has a hard time growing
> alage. I've
> experiemented with all sorts of plants tryiong to keep betta jars cleanm
> longer
> and noting works like moss. I suspect if you threw a garbage bag of the
> stuff
> into a pond it owuld have a dramatic effect of water clarity. It sure
> works
> that way in aquaria.
>
> In Asis the moss that grows around ponds is the stuff we grow in
> fishtanks. It
> even grows in lawns there.
======================
Are you talking about what we call Java Moss? It grows here on rocks in the
woods, damp driftwood by the lake in water itself. I believe this is all
the same plant.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>
> I understand if you're doing ok you can't imagine you're doing anything
> wrong and if you're happy with yout plant growth, great. But the idea
> "plants get all th enutrients they need from fish" is true you are
> quite mistaken.
====================
He may have some unusual conditions in his pond. I can't even get water
lilies to grow and bloom in a fine gravel. I have to use soil and
fertilizer spikes if I want nice large leaves and lots of blooms. Other
pond plants do well enough in fine gravel alone.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj]

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 04:18:57 +0000 (UTC), (Richard Sexton) wrote:

>The first question I'd ask is what is causing the pH to get thaty high. It
>may be the chemical making the ph change that's thwe problem not the pH itself.

Exactly! That's why you don't give out the fix-it info, till you get all
the info about the pond from the person with the problem. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Derek Broughton]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> I understand if you're doing ok you can't imagine you're doing anything
> wrong and if you're happy with yout plant growth, great. But the idea
> "plants get all th enutrients they need from fish" is true you are
> quite mistaken.

Except I _still_ didn't say that, and even though I asked nicely, you're
still using quotes to have me saying something I neither said nor believed.

I said _my_ lilies got all the nutrients they needed from my pond. It may
only be because my water supply had all the traces they needed, too. I
also said my water hyacinth did _not_ get all the nutrients they needed
from my pond.

What I _will_ say as a blanket statement is that, in a fish pond, lilies can
get all the nitrogen they need from fish. I'm well aware that plants need
more than nitrogen. If your plants don't do well enough bare-root, then
the answer is still not to plant in compost. Plant lilies in clay - then
you can use fertilizer spikes without most of the nutrients migrating into
the water.
--
derek

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Derek Broughton > wrote:
>I said _my_ lilies got all the nutrients they needed from my pond. It may
>only be because my water supply had all the traces they needed, too. I
>also said my water hyacinth did _not_ get all the nutrients they needed
>from my pond.
>
>What I _will_ say as a blanket statement is that, in a fish pond, lilies can
>get all the nitrogen they need from fish. I'm well aware that plants need
>more than nitrogen. If your plants don't do well enough bare-root, then
>the answer is still not to plant in compost. Plant lilies in clay - then
>you can use fertilizer spikes without most of the nutrients migrating into
>the water.

Your plants may grow just swell, but that's not the same as "they
get everything they neeed". You can prove this by fertilizing them
and observing more and more vigorous growth. Until then you're just
guessing, not stating objective fact.

Your opinion is just that and should not be passed off as factually
correct.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> Moss is my secret weopan. Any tank with moss has a hard time growing
>> alage. I've
>> experiemented with all sorts of plants tryiong to keep betta jars cleanm
>> longer
>> and noting works like moss. I suspect if you threw a garbage bag of the
>> stuff
>> into a pond it owuld have a dramatic effect of water clarity. It sure
>> works
>> that way in aquaria.
>>
>> In Asis the moss that grows around ponds is the stuff we grow in
>> fishtanks. It
>> even grows in lawns there.
>======================
>Are you talking about what we call Java Moss? It grows here on rocks in the
>woods, damp driftwood by the lake in water itself. I believe this is all
>the same plant.

Nah, the stuff that grows in lawns and around ponds in Singapore is
"xmas moss". There's about 17 common aquatic mosses and while java moss
is the oldest kept in tanks and the most common, it's not the most common
one found in Singapore gardens. But any of them will work.

I have on tank four feet long with a three foot clump of this stuff
and if I'm lax about water changes and fertilizer then it grows alage
but only where moss isn't close. The tank is utterly stuffed with
plants.

I'm not suggesting moss inhibits alage but that it's a very efficient
consumer of nutrients, probably due to the massive surface area all those
zillions of tiny leaves have.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Derek Broughton]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> Your plants may grow just swell, but that's not the same as "they
> get everything they neeed". You can prove this by fertilizing them
> and observing more and more vigorous growth. Until then you're just
> guessing, not stating objective fact.

How is "more vigorous growth" an indicator of anything? Gardeners
frequently don't _want_ vegetative growth. Especially with lilies: we want
blooms. Considering I've had dozens of blooms off a single lily _at one
time_ I think it's pretty safe to say I've been doing it right.

> Your opinion is just that and should not be passed off as factually
> correct.

My opinion is that years of water gardening experience has proven that
bare-root planting of some species works. In many cases, for many reasons,
better than alternatives. Your _opinion_ would seem to be that if you're
not getting the absolute maximum growth out of your plants, you're doing
something wrong.

Your _opinion_ is only "factually correct" under limited conditions - like
no fish in the pond, and you'd rather see lily pads than flowers. Most
water gardeners consider it a failure when they get lots of growth and few
blooms. A failure, I might add, that is commonly caused not by
fertilization or lack of it, but by getting dirt on the crown - which can't
happen when you plant bare-root.

We all have different preferred ways of doing things, and there's plenty of
disagreement in this group, but there's no need to come in here and start
telling us you have all the right answers.
--
derek

[Koi-Lo]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> I'm not suggesting moss inhibits alage but that it's a very efficient
> consumer of nutrients, probably due to the massive surface area all those
> zillions of tiny leaves have.
======================
Come to think of it,...it's the tanks with a good size ball of Java moss
that don't have any serious algae problems. I think I'll add a larger
amount to the tanks that did have a problem.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Derek Broughton > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>> Your plants may grow just swell, but that's not the same as "they
>> get everything they neeed". You can prove this by fertilizing them
>> and observing more and more vigorous growth. Until then you're just
>> guessing, not stating objective fact.
>
>How is "more vigorous growth" an indicator of anything? Gardeners
>frequently don't _want_ vegetative growth. Especially with lilies: we want
>blooms.

Then maintain an optimal pjhosphate level. All fishfood contains
pjhosphate and fish will excrete that, but if it's not at an optimal
level you won't get optimal blooms.

>better than alternatives. Your _opinion_ would seem to be that if you're
>not getting the absolute maximum growth out of your plants, you're doing
>something wrong.

That is to say if you're stunting your plants you're doing right?

The bigger the root the bigger the bloom.

>Your _opinion_ is only "factually correct" under limited conditions - like
>no fish in the pond, and you'd rather see lily pads than flowers.

I neevr said this. Ever.

>disagreement in this group, but there's no need to come in here and start
>telling us you have all the right answers.

Enjoy your Bonsai.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Koi-Lo > wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> I'm not suggesting moss inhibits alage but that it's a very efficient
>> consumer of nutrients, probably due to the massive surface area all those
>> zillions of tiny leaves have.
>======================
>Come to think of it,...it's the tanks with a good size ball of Java moss
>that don't have any serious algae problems. I think I'll add a larger
>amount to the tanks that did have a problem.

Yupper. This is not to say if you have lots of moss you'll never get
alage, but based on experiemtns with betta bowls and various plants
you'd have to ignore them for about 3 months to grow alage and moss.

Any other plant, java fern, crypts, lucky bamboo, you get it in about
3 weeks of zero maintenance.

Plus java moss (or any other moss, xmas moss, taiwan moss, creeping,
weeping or what have you moss) plays host to countless protozoans
to the point where you can have, for example, a self sustaining
colony of half a dozen pairs of (small) killifish in a 20 gal tank,
with a tight fitting cover, and it will not require any food to be added.

I did this for two years and fish bred, came and went, with no food added.
The poor things died when I was away on a business trip because the light
timer failed - I came back to a crystal clear empty tank; when I left it
was packed with moss and fish.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Derek Broughton]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> Enjoy your Bonsai.

To an extent, all gardening is bonsai - you're growing things in restricted
spaces.

In a pond with 225 sq.ft. of surface, I would get _one_ lily covering over
100 sq.ft. of it. It's all the success I can handle.
--
derek

[~ janj]

>Derek Broughton > wrote:
>>there's no need to come in here and start
>>telling us you have all the right answers.

I didn't get that impression. Looked like a lively discussion. No wonder RP
crashes and burns so easily these days. If we cop such attitude when
someone new joins, RP is in serious trouble (as if we aren't already).
~ jan
~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Derek Broughton > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>
>> Enjoy your Bonsai.
>
>To an extent, all gardening is bonsai - you're growing things in restricted
>spaces.
>
>In a pond with 225 sq.ft. of surface, I would get _one_ lily covering over
>100 sq.ft. of it. It's all the success I can handle.

Then you have no need or optimal plant growth. But there are people that
are. Your advice is good for you, but people who have problems growing
plants, or growing plants well enough for them may benefit from knowing
how to achieve that.




--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Derek Broughton]

Richard Sexton wrote:

> In article >,
> Derek Broughton > wrote:
>>Richard Sexton wrote:
>>
>>> Enjoy your Bonsai.
>>
>>To an extent, all gardening is bonsai - you're growing things in
>>restricted spaces.
>>
>>In a pond with 225 sq.ft. of surface, I would get _one_ lily covering over
>>100 sq.ft. of it. It's all the success I can handle.
>
> Then you have no need or optimal plant growth. But there are people that
> are. Your advice is good for you, but people who have problems growing
> plants, or growing plants well enough for them may benefit from knowing
> how to achieve that.

And I've always said that. I still strongly encourage anybody to try
planting lilies bare-root. Sooner or later, in this hobby, you're going to
have to toss a plant in the compost, or at least give it away - so you have
nothing to lose at that point.
--
derek