Acclimation failure

[Don Geddis]

Let's say I get a new fish from the LFS, and then do a poor job acclimating
it to my tank, perhaps too fast or something. What kind of behavior should
I expect?

I recently got a small (ocellaris) clown, and unfortunately was a little rushed
when I got it home. Seemed fine the first 48 hours (eating, good color),
although unfortunately my existing clowns were bothering and nipping at it.
Then, this morning, it was swimming on the bottom of the tank near the sand
(instead of in the open water), the top half looked kind of grey, and it didn't
eat during the morning feeding. By the afternoon, it was dead.

Is there any chance this was an acclimation error on my part? Could it take
that long to manifest the symptoms? Or, if you do a bad job with acclimation,
should you expect noticeable problems within the first 24 hours?

I'm trying to figure out whether I made a mistake, or whether I was simply
unlucky to import a fish that already had problems.

Curious about the experiences of the rest of you...

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait. Not me, you.
-- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

[TheRock]

It was probably poisoned long before you got it. Cyanide
Read here: http://www.clownfish.org/
Unless of course it was tank bred.

Chris



"Don Geddis" > wrote in message
...
> Let's say I get a new fish from the LFS, and then do a poor job
> acclimating
> it to my tank, perhaps too fast or something. What kind of behavior
> should
> I expect?
>
> I recently got a small (ocellaris) clown, and unfortunately was a little
> rushed
> when I got it home. Seemed fine the first 48 hours (eating, good color),
> although unfortunately my existing clowns were bothering and nipping at
> it.
> Then, this morning, it was swimming on the bottom of the tank near the
> sand
> (instead of in the open water), the top half looked kind of grey, and it
> didn't
> eat during the morning feeding. By the afternoon, it was dead.
>
> Is there any chance this was an acclimation error on my part? Could it
> take
> that long to manifest the symptoms? Or, if you do a bad job with
> acclimation,
> should you expect noticeable problems within the first 24 hours?
>
> I'm trying to figure out whether I made a mistake, or whether I was simply
> unlucky to import a fish that already had problems.
>
> Curious about the experiences of the rest of you...
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis
> http://reef.geddis.org/
> Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait. Not me, you.
> -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

[William Marsh]

Rock That was a good article. 15 years ago when I was in the hobby the tank
raised had just started. Now is looks as though its quite lucrative. My
question is why would a person want a clown that was not tank raised. Do
they act differently, My LSF guy says the color is better and they don't
cost more or not much. So I guess it is because we get them from on line
and don't know or what. Thanks for any info.
"TheRock" > wrote in message
news:T4HVf.1331$Q9.736@trndny07...
> It was probably poisoned long before you got it. Cyanide
> Read here: http://www.clownfish.org/
> Unless of course it was tank bred.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> "Don Geddis" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Let's say I get a new fish from the LFS, and then do a poor job
>> acclimating
>> it to my tank, perhaps too fast or something. What kind of behavior
>> should
>> I expect?
>>
>> I recently got a small (ocellaris) clown, and unfortunately was a little
>> rushed
>> when I got it home. Seemed fine the first 48 hours (eating, good color),
>> although unfortunately my existing clowns were bothering and nipping at
>> it.
>> Then, this morning, it was swimming on the bottom of the tank near the
>> sand
>> (instead of in the open water), the top half looked kind of grey, and it
>> didn't
>> eat during the morning feeding. By the afternoon, it was dead.
>>
>> Is there any chance this was an acclimation error on my part? Could it
>> take
>> that long to manifest the symptoms? Or, if you do a bad job with
>> acclimation,
>> should you expect noticeable problems within the first 24 hours?
>>
>> I'm trying to figure out whether I made a mistake, or whether I was
>> simply
>> unlucky to import a fish that already had problems.
>>
>> Curious about the experiences of the rest of you...
>>
>> -- Don
>> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
>> Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
>> Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait. Not me, you.
>> -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey
>
>

[Susan]

Supposingly what I've been told wild caught clown fish adapt easily to an
anemone where as the tank raised clowns tend to not go towards an anemone as
easily. Personally, I've always had good luck with tank raised clowns going
to an anmeone and I see them (tank raised ones) in anemones in the LFS all
the time too so I always found that hard to believe.

Susan :)
"William Marsh" > wrote in message
...
> Rock That was a good article. 15 years ago when I was in the hobby the
> tank raised had just started. Now is looks as though its quite lucrative.
> My question is why would a person want a clown that was not tank raised.
> Do they act differently, My LSF guy says the color is better and they
> don't cost more or not much. So I guess it is because we get them from
> on line and don't know or what. Thanks for any info.
> "TheRock" > wrote in message
> news:T4HVf.1331$Q9.736@trndny07...
>> It was probably poisoned long before you got it. Cyanide
>> Read here: http://www.clownfish.org/
>> Unless of course it was tank bred.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>> "Don Geddis" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Let's say I get a new fish from the LFS, and then do a poor job
>>> acclimating
>>> it to my tank, perhaps too fast or something. What kind of behavior
>>> should
>>> I expect?
>>>
>>> I recently got a small (ocellaris) clown, and unfortunately was a little
>>> rushed
>>> when I got it home. Seemed fine the first 48 hours (eating, good
>>> color),
>>> although unfortunately my existing clowns were bothering and nipping at
>>> it.
>>> Then, this morning, it was swimming on the bottom of the tank near the
>>> sand
>>> (instead of in the open water), the top half looked kind of grey, and it
>>> didn't
>>> eat during the morning feeding. By the afternoon, it was dead.
>>>
>>> Is there any chance this was an acclimation error on my part? Could it
>>> take
>>> that long to manifest the symptoms? Or, if you do a bad job with
>>> acclimation,
>>> should you expect noticeable problems within the first 24 hours?
>>>
>>> I'm trying to figure out whether I made a mistake, or whether I was
>>> simply
>>> unlucky to import a fish that already had problems.
>>>
>>> Curious about the experiences of the rest of you...
>>>
>>> -- Don
>>> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
>>> Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
>>> Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait. Not me, you.
>>> -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey
>>
>>
>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Your existing clowns killed it.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Don Geddis wrote on 3/26/2006 6:44 PM:
> Let's say I get a new fish from the LFS, and then do a poor job acclimating
> it to my tank, perhaps too fast or something. What kind of behavior should
> I expect?
>
> I recently got a small (ocellaris) clown, and unfortunately was a little rushed
> when I got it home. Seemed fine the first 48 hours (eating, good color),
> although unfortunately my existing clowns were bothering and nipping at it.
> Then, this morning, it was swimming on the bottom of the tank near the sand
> (instead of in the open water), the top half looked kind of grey, and it didn't
> eat during the morning feeding. By the afternoon, it was dead.
>
> Is there any chance this was an acclimation error on my part? Could it take
> that long to manifest the symptoms? Or, if you do a bad job with acclimation,
> should you expect noticeable problems within the first 24 hours?
>
> I'm trying to figure out whether I made a mistake, or whether I was simply
> unlucky to import a fish that already had problems.
>
> Curious about the experiences of the rest of you...
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
> Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait. Not me, you.
> -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

[GrimReaper]

Are your original clowns all ocellaris?
How many original clowns did you have and what were their length - min and
max?
What size was the new fish?

I think Wayne may be right

Grimreaper

[Don Geddis]

"William Marsh" > wrote on Mon, 27 Mar 2006:
> My question is why would a person want a clown that was not tank raised. Do
> they act differently

Possibly wild ones host in anemones more reliably, but that's hard to tell.

> My LSF guy says the color is better

Agreed. Like any other domesticated pet, you can do artificial selection
on breeding pairs with a captive-bred species.

> and they don't cost more or not much.

This part seems to be the difference. Around here, a wild clownfish costs
$10-$12 or so. Captive-bred orange ocellaris is about $25/fish. The black
captive-bred ocellaris clown that I got last week from my LFS was $45 for a
single fish. (I'm not aware of any wild-caught black ocellaris clowns.)

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
I gotta have more cowbell! -- "Bruce Dickinson" (Christopher Walken), SNL

[Don Geddis]

"GrimReaper" > wrote on Mon, 27 Mar 2006:
> Are your original clowns all ocellaris?

Yes.

I had a pair of small (1 1/2 inch) orange tank-raised ocellaris clowns,
introduced to my tank only a week or so before. Surely juvenile/males.

I decided I wanted a couple more, so I went back to the same LFS, and from
the same original wholesale collection I got a third orange clown, and a single
black clown (both ocellaris). In the LFS, the black one(s) were housed
separately from the orange ones.

The orange clown fit right in, and formed a small school of three with the
previous pair. The black clown was constantly attacked and ostracized to a
corner of the tank (and not always by the same orange one).

> How many original clowns did you have and what were their length - min and
> max? What size was the new fish?

All were roughly the same size, about 1.5" long.

I was worried about some black/orange difference, so I went back to the same
LFS _again_, and got another black ocellaris, slightly larger this time (2").
I thought: (1) at least with a pair of them, they might spread out the attacks;
(2) the new one was larger, so might be able to stand up for itself better.

Observation: the original small black clown died a day later; the 2nd larger
black clown integrated immediately into the clown family, and now the four of
them swim around together.

So, one theory is that the first black clown was sick from the beginning, the
other three noticed, and that's why they shunned it.

> I think Wayne may be right

But why would juvenile tank-raised ocellaris clowns attack one of their own?
They're one of the most friendly fish around, and form large family groups.

Although perhaps Wayne is right that the immediate cause of death was stress
from physical attacks of the other clowns. I just don't know why they'd do
that.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Lazlo's Chinese Relativity Axiom: No matter how great your triumphs or how
tragic your defeats---approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.

[Wayne Sallee]

It was not one of the siblings. The other one being
bigger, had a real advantage. And often being real tiny
can have it's advantages, as they are not looked at, as
competition.

It is often a complicated set of factors that will
deturmine how fish will behave with each other.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Don Geddis wrote on 3/27/2006 5:28 PM:

>
> But why would juvenile tank-raised ocellaris clowns attack one of their own?
> They're one of the most friendly fish around, and form large family groups.

[TheRock]

I've also read that once a clown changes sex
and you drop another one in there,
you're taking a chance that they can be the same sex.

2 females or 2 males will view eachother as rivals.


"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> It was not one of the siblings. The other one being bigger, had a real
> advantage. And often being real tiny can have it's advantages, as they are
> not looked at, as competition.
>
> It is often a complicated set of factors that will deturmine how fish will
> behave with each other.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Don Geddis wrote on 3/27/2006 5:28 PM:
>
>>
>> But why would juvenile tank-raised ocellaris clowns attack one of their
>> own?
>> They're one of the most friendly fish around, and form large family
>> groups.

[Wayne Sallee]

They are all males when young. So if you have a big one by
itself, you can add a young one.

I once had a situation where I had a large female clarky,
and a male. They were paired up nicely. I then added a
smaller male. The existing mail did not like the smaller
male, and chased it a lot. The female was not so much
against the smaller male, and the more the existing mail
chased the smaller male, the more the female liked the
smaller male. Eventually the female killed the existing
male, and pared up with the smaller male.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



TheRock wrote on 3/27/2006 10:16 PM:
> I've also read that once a clown changes sex
> and you drop another one in there,
> you're taking a chance that they can be the same sex.
>
> 2 females or 2 males will view eachother as rivals.
>
>
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>> It was not one of the siblings. The other one being bigger, had a real
>> advantage. And often being real tiny can have it's advantages, as they are
>> not looked at, as competition.
>>
>> It is often a complicated set of factors that will deturmine how fish will
>> behave with each other.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> Don Geddis wrote on 3/27/2006 5:28 PM:
>>
>>> But why would juvenile tank-raised ocellaris clowns attack one of their
>>> own?
>>> They're one of the most friendly fish around, and form large family
>>> groups.
>
>

[AverageSchmuck]

wow so their is hope for my poor medium sized maroon clown .. slim but
their is still possibilty I could have more than 1? My clown has been
alone for a while I bought him he was alone in a very large reef tank
and now still alone in mine.

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:43:40 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
wrote:

>They are all males when young. So if you have a big one by
>itself, you can add a young one.
>
>I once had a situation where I had a large female clarky,
>and a male. They were paired up nicely. I then added a
>smaller male. The existing mail did not like the smaller
>male, and chased it a lot. The female was not so much
>against the smaller male, and the more the existing mail
>chased the smaller male, the more the female liked the
>smaller male. Eventually the female killed the existing
>male, and pared up with the smaller male.
>
>Wayne Sallee
>Wayne's Pets

>
>
>TheRock wrote on 3/27/2006 10:16 PM:
>> I've also read that once a clown changes sex
>> and you drop another one in there,
>> you're taking a chance that they can be the same sex.
>>
>> 2 females or 2 males will view eachother as rivals.
>>
>>
>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> It was not one of the siblings. The other one being bigger, had a real
>>> advantage. And often being real tiny can have it's advantages, as they are
>>> not looked at, as competition.
>>>
>>> It is often a complicated set of factors that will deturmine how fish will
>>> behave with each other.
>>>
>>> Wayne Sallee
>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don Geddis wrote on 3/27/2006 5:28 PM:
>>>
>>>> But why would juvenile tank-raised ocellaris clowns attack one of their
>>>> own?
>>>> They're one of the most friendly fish around, and form large family
>>>> groups.
>>
>>

[AverageSchmuck]

argh I am horrible at that .. What I meant to continue to ask is... Is
their a better method of maybe introducing them than just "plop" him
into tank and hope for best?

[Wayne Sallee]

You can put a small (smallest you can find)maroon in a
bag, and float it in the tank, and wach to see how the
biger maroon behaves toward it. First impressions are
usualy the best judge.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



AverageSchmuck wrote on 3/28/2006 10:10 AM:
> argh I am horrible at that .. What I meant to continue to ask is... Is
> their a better method of maybe introducing them than just "plop" him
> into tank and hope for best?

[AverageSchmuck]

that may be impossibility to me.. Since my local LFS the owner is
well eccentric I guess to not say anything not nice. I seriously doubt
I could buy a fish from him and float it and then find out the other
clown starts attacking bag or whatever that he would allow me to take
it back.

Example - up until last week I bought my RO water exclusively from him
we are talking min 10 gallons fresh and 20 gallons salt per week. Up
until 2 weeks ago his water was great but it became clear that he is
not changing out the filteration cartridges and membranes regularly
last week when I was having amonia and nitrate problems in tank for no
apparent reason. I finally stopped assuming his water was great and
tested it to find out the water I was buying from him tested to have a
level of 50 nitrates and .3 ammonia straight from his tanks. Now I can
not approach him concerning this matter because he will automatically
accuse me of tampering with water at my home and impossibility that
his system needs maintenance. resolution I stopped quietly from buying
water from him and went to another smaller shop that I have avoided in
past cause they always I mean always have at least one dead fish in
every tank. To test their water and it is fine. So I seriously doubt
either store would allow me to bring the fish back.

and besides that I have this pesky problem of getting fish that dont
fit into a 7 inch lionfish' mouth.. hehe

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:50:56 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
wrote:

>You can put a small (smallest you can find)maroon in a
>bag, and float it in the tank, and wach to see how the
>biger maroon behaves toward it. First impressions are
>usualy the best judge.
>
>Wayne Sallee
>Wayne's Pets

>
>
>AverageSchmuck wrote on 3/28/2006 10:10 AM:
>> argh I am horrible at that .. What I meant to continue to ask is... Is
>> their a better method of maybe introducing them than just "plop" him
>> into tank and hope for best?

[TheRock]

Typical female !!! : )

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> They are all males when young. So if you have a big one by itself, you can
> add a young one.
>
> I once had a situation where I had a large female clarky, and a male. They
> were paired up nicely. I then added a smaller male. The existing mail did
> not like the smaller male, and chased it a lot. The female was not so much
> against the smaller male, and the more the existing mail chased the
> smaller male, the more the female liked the smaller male. Eventually the
> female killed the existing male, and pared up with the smaller male.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> TheRock wrote on 3/27/2006 10:16 PM:
>> I've also read that once a clown changes sex
>> and you drop another one in there,
>> you're taking a chance that they can be the same sex.
>>
>> 2 females or 2 males will view eachother as rivals.
>>
>>
>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> It was not one of the siblings. The other one being bigger, had a real
>>> advantage. And often being real tiny can have it's advantages, as they
>>> are not looked at, as competition.
>>>
>>> It is often a complicated set of factors that will deturmine how fish
>>> will behave with each other.
>>>
>>> Wayne Sallee
>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don Geddis wrote on 3/27/2006 5:28 PM:
>>>
>>>> But why would juvenile tank-raised ocellaris clowns attack one of their
>>>> own?
>>>> They're one of the most friendly fish around, and form large family
>>>> groups.
>>

[miskairal]

Hahahaha
I want to reply with so much here but I will hold my tongue.
Oooh that is so hard :)

TheRock wrote:
> Typical female !!! : )
>
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>They are all males when young. So if you have a big one by itself, you can
>>add a young one.
>>
>>I once had a situation where I had a large female clarky, and a male. They
>>were paired up nicely. I then added a smaller male. The existing mail did
>>not like the smaller male, and chased it a lot. The female was not so much
>>against the smaller male, and the more the existing mail chased the
>>smaller male, the more the female liked the smaller male. Eventually the
>>female killed the existing male, and pared up with the smaller male.
>>
>>Wayne Sallee
>>Wayne's Pets

>>
>>
>>TheRock wrote on 3/27/2006 10:16 PM:
>>
>>>I've also read that once a clown changes sex
>>>and you drop another one in there,
>>>you're taking a chance that they can be the same sex.
>>>
>>>2 females or 2 males will view eachother as rivals.
>>>
>>>
>>>"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>It was not one of the siblings. The other one being bigger, had a real
>>>>advantage. And often being real tiny can have it's advantages, as they
>>>>are not looked at, as competition.
>>>>
>>>>It is often a complicated set of factors that will deturmine how fish
>>>>will behave with each other.
>>>>
>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Don Geddis wrote on 3/27/2006 5:28 PM:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>But why would juvenile tank-raised ocellaris clowns attack one of their
>>>>>own?
>>>>>They're one of the most friendly fish around, and form large family
>>>>>groups.
>>>
>

[TheRock]

Ha !
You know it's true : )



"miskairal" > wrote in message
...
> Hahahaha
> I want to reply with so much here but I will hold my tongue.
> Oooh that is so hard :)
>
> TheRock wrote:
>> Typical female !!! : )
>>
>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>They are all males when young. So if you have a big one by itself, you
>>>can add a young one.
>>>
>>>I once had a situation where I had a large female clarky, and a male.
>>>They were paired up nicely. I then added a smaller male. The existing
>>>mail did not like the smaller male, and chased it a lot. The female was
>>>not so much against the smaller male, and the more the existing mail
>>>chased the smaller male, the more the female liked the smaller male.
>>>Eventually the female killed the existing male, and pared up with the
>>>smaller male.
>>>
>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>
>>>
>>>TheRock wrote on 3/27/2006 10:16 PM:
>>>
>>>>I've also read that once a clown changes sex
>>>>and you drop another one in there,
>>>>you're taking a chance that they can be the same sex.
>>>>
>>>>2 females or 2 males will view eachother as rivals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>>It was not one of the siblings. The other one being bigger, had a real
>>>>>advantage. And often being real tiny can have it's advantages, as they
>>>>>are not looked at, as competition.
>>>>>
>>>>>It is often a complicated set of factors that will deturmine how fish
>>>>>will behave with each other.
>>>>>
>>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Don Geddis wrote on 3/27/2006 5:28 PM:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>But why would juvenile tank-raised ocellaris clowns attack one of
>>>>>>their own?
>>>>>>They're one of the most friendly fish around, and form large family
>>>>>>groups.
>>>>
>>

[William Marsh]

Ouch Rock , Don't let you better half hear that LOL
Bill
"TheRock" > wrote in message
news:PmlWf.1983$Bf.614@trndny06...
> Typical female !!! : )
>
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>> They are all males when young. So if you have a big one by itself, you
>> can add a young one.
>>
>> I once had a situation where I had a large female clarky, and a male.
>> They were paired up nicely. I then added a smaller male. The existing
>> mail did not like the smaller male, and chased it a lot. The female was
>> not so much against the smaller male, and the more the existing mail
>> chased the smaller male, the more the female liked the smaller male.
>> Eventually the female killed the existing male, and pared up with the
>> smaller male.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> TheRock wrote on 3/27/2006 10:16 PM:
>>> I've also read that once a clown changes sex
>>> and you drop another one in there,
>>> you're taking a chance that they can be the same sex.
>>>
>>> 2 females or 2 males will view eachother as rivals.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> It was not one of the siblings. The other one being bigger, had a real
>>>> advantage. And often being real tiny can have it's advantages, as they
>>>> are not looked at, as competition.
>>>>
>>>> It is often a complicated set of factors that will deturmine how fish
>>>> will behave with each other.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne Sallee
>>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don Geddis wrote on 3/27/2006 5:28 PM:
>>>>
>>>>> But why would juvenile tank-raised ocellaris clowns attack one of
>>>>> their own?
>>>>> They're one of the most friendly fish around, and form large family
>>>>> groups.
>>>
>

[Cindy]

Wayne Sallee typed:
> They are all males when young. So if you have a big one by
> itself, you can add a young one.
>
> I once had a situation where I had a large female clarky,
> and a male. They were paired up nicely. I then added a
> smaller male. The existing mail did not like the smaller
> male, and chased it a lot. The female was not so much
> against the smaller male, and the more the existing mail
> chased the smaller male, the more the female liked the
> smaller male. Eventually the female killed the existing
> male, and pared up with the smaller male.
>
> Wayne Sallee

Just shows, big and strong is great, but it doesn't pay to be an asshole....
; )
Cindy

[Susan]

Amen to that Cindy ;-)

Susan :)

"Cindy" > wrote in message
. com...
> Wayne Sallee typed:
>> They are all males when young. So if you have a big one by
>> itself, you can add a young one.
>>
>> I once had a situation where I had a large female clarky,
>> and a male. They were paired up nicely. I then added a
>> smaller male. The existing mail did not like the smaller
>> male, and chased it a lot. The female was not so much
>> against the smaller male, and the more the existing mail
>> chased the smaller male, the more the female liked the
>> smaller male. Eventually the female killed the existing
>> male, and pared up with the smaller male.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>
> Just shows, big and strong is great, but it doesn't pay to be an
> asshole....
> ; )
> Cindy
>

[miskairal]

You're making it harder to hold my tongue :)


TheRock wrote:
> Ha !
> You know it's true : )
>
>
>
> "miskairal" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Hahahaha
>>I want to reply with so much here but I will hold my tongue.
>>Oooh that is so hard :)
>>
>>TheRock wrote:
>>
>>>Typical female !!! : )
>>>
>>>"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>They are all males when young. So if you have a big one by itself, you
>>>>can add a young one.
>>>>
>>>>I once had a situation where I had a large female clarky, and a male.
>>>>They were paired up nicely. I then added a smaller male. The existing
>>>>mail did not like the smaller male, and chased it a lot. The female was
>>>>not so much against the smaller male, and the more the existing mail
>>>>chased the smaller male, the more the female liked the smaller male.
>>>>Eventually the female killed the existing male, and pared up with the
>>>>smaller male.
>>>>
>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>TheRock wrote on 3/27/2006 10:16 PM:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I've also read that once a clown changes sex
>>>>>and you drop another one in there,
>>>>>you're taking a chance that they can be the same sex.
>>>>>
>>>>>2 females or 2 males will view eachother as rivals.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It was not one of the siblings. The other one being bigger, had a real
>>>>>>advantage. And often being real tiny can have it's advantages, as they
>>>>>>are not looked at, as competition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is often a complicated set of factors that will deturmine how fish
>>>>>>will behave with each other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wayne Sallee
>>>>>>Wayne's Pets

>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Don Geddis wrote on 3/27/2006 5:28 PM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But why would juvenile tank-raised ocellaris clowns attack one of
>>>>>>>their own?
>>>>>>>They're one of the most friendly fish around, and form large family
>>>>>>>groups.
>>>>>
>
>

[Don Geddis]

Don Geddis > wrote on Mon, 27 Mar 2006:
> So, one theory is that the first black clown was sick from the beginning, the
> other three noticed, and that's why they shunned it.

If anyone's following my clownfish death(s), I've got some new information.
I've now lost two (a new black one, and a orange, both ocellaris). Plus a
second black ocellaris was looking very sick last night. The most obvious
sign, besides swimming/breathing distress, is a white mucus coating of some
kind across about the bottom half of the fish. The same thing happened to the
first black clown to die.

I now suspect that my recent clown addition(s) were infected with the
Brooklynella parasite. From Wilkerson's "Clownfishes" book, I see:

...Brooklynella is comtimes called clownfish disease, angelfish
disease, or "turbidity of the skin" and is caused by a protozoan
known as Brooklynella hostilis. It is particularly associated with
imported Maroon Clownfish, but other clownfish species can be
affected as well. Symptoms are a thick, whitish mucus coat, rapid
respiration, loss of appetite, open-mouth gasping, and faded body
color in advanced cases. Affected fishes are usually found either
lying on the bottom or staying near the surface of the water.

Treatment is a full 15-minute freshwater dip to remove the parasites
from the fish. [...] Today's clownfish hatcheries have eradicated
this disease from their stock, and buying captive-raised fishes is one
reasonably sure way to steer clear of this problem.

My own problems started with the addition of two captive-raised clowns (along
with some shrimp and snails), so I guess that's not a guarantee. Oh well.

Took all three of my remaining ocellaris clowns out last night and gave them
a 15-minute freshwater dip. Incredible on the black clown: after 5 minutes,
white flakes started peeling off his skin and falling down in the water.

Looks much better (color) this morning, although still not much appetite, and
one fin is mostly glued to its body, so it swims kind of lame. But far better
than last night.

Hopefully it will recover, and the other two clowns won't catch the parasite.
Although at this point perhaps the parasite has established itself in my reef
tank as a whole. That would be sad. If I'm lucky, I killed it by putting the
clowns into a freshwater dip.

(I also hope that Brooklynella doesn't/didn't spread to other species: there's
no way I can catch my mandarin dragonet or purple tang without taking all the
rock out. So those two aren't going to be getting a freshwater dip.)

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking
through your stuff. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

[AverageSchmuck]

wow sad to hear Don. if your fear is that the protozoans have
established itself in the reef the addition of a sterilizers set to
proper zap of that particular protozoan might be in order.

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:54:27 -0800, Don Geddis > wrote:

>Don Geddis > wrote on Mon, 27 Mar 2006:
>> So, one theory is that the first black clown was sick from the beginning, the
>> other three noticed, and that's why they shunned it.
>
>If anyone's following my clownfish death(s), I've got some new information.
>I've now lost two (a new black one, and a orange, both ocellaris). Plus a
>second black ocellaris was looking very sick last night. The most obvious
>sign, besides swimming/breathing distress, is a white mucus coating of some
>kind across about the bottom half of the fish. The same thing happened to the
>first black clown to die.
>
>I now suspect that my recent clown addition(s) were infected with the
>Brooklynella parasite. From Wilkerson's "Clownfishes" book, I see:
>
> ...Brooklynella is comtimes called clownfish disease, angelfish
> disease, or "turbidity of the skin" and is caused by a protozoan
> known as Brooklynella hostilis. It is particularly associated with
> imported Maroon Clownfish, but other clownfish species can be
> affected as well. Symptoms are a thick, whitish mucus coat, rapid
> respiration, loss of appetite, open-mouth gasping, and faded body
> color in advanced cases. Affected fishes are usually found either
> lying on the bottom or staying near the surface of the water.
>
> Treatment is a full 15-minute freshwater dip to remove the parasites
> from the fish. [...] Today's clownfish hatcheries have eradicated
> this disease from their stock, and buying captive-raised fishes is one
> reasonably sure way to steer clear of this problem.
>
>My own problems started with the addition of two captive-raised clowns (along
>with some shrimp and snails), so I guess that's not a guarantee. Oh well.
>
>Took all three of my remaining ocellaris clowns out last night and gave them
>a 15-minute freshwater dip. Incredible on the black clown: after 5 minutes,
>white flakes started peeling off his skin and falling down in the water.
>
>Looks much better (color) this morning, although still not much appetite, and
>one fin is mostly glued to its body, so it swims kind of lame. But far better
>than last night.
>
>Hopefully it will recover, and the other two clowns won't catch the parasite.
>Although at this point perhaps the parasite has established itself in my reef
>tank as a whole. That would be sad. If I'm lucky, I killed it by putting the
>clowns into a freshwater dip.
>
>(I also hope that Brooklynella doesn't/didn't spread to other species: there's
>no way I can catch my mandarin dragonet or purple tang without taking all the
>rock out. So those two aren't going to be getting a freshwater dip.)
>
> -- Don
>__________________________________________________ _____________________________
>Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
>Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking
>through your stuff. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

[miskairal]

Glad to hear you discovered the cause. Nothing worse than not knowing
what to do. I've read somewhere that mandarins are less prone to
parasites because they have a thicker mucous coat than other fish so
keep your fingers crossed.

Thankyou for sharing your findings. I've saved your post hoping that I
will never need it.

Good luck
miskairal

Don Geddis wrote:
> Don Geddis > wrote on Mon, 27 Mar 2006:
>
>>So, one theory is that the first black clown was sick from the beginning, the
>>other three noticed, and that's why they shunned it.
>
>
> If anyone's following my clownfish death(s), I've got some new information.
> I've now lost two (a new black one, and a orange, both ocellaris). Plus a
> second black ocellaris was looking very sick last night. The most obvious
> sign, besides swimming/breathing distress, is a white mucus coating of some
> kind across about the bottom half of the fish. The same thing happened to the
> first black clown to die.
>
> I now suspect that my recent clown addition(s) were infected with the
> Brooklynella parasite. From Wilkerson's "Clownfishes" book, I see:
>
> ...Brooklynella is comtimes called clownfish disease, angelfish
> disease, or "turbidity of the skin" and is caused by a protozoan
> known as Brooklynella hostilis. It is particularly associated with
> imported Maroon Clownfish, but other clownfish species can be
> affected as well. Symptoms are a thick, whitish mucus coat, rapid
> respiration, loss of appetite, open-mouth gasping, and faded body
> color in advanced cases. Affected fishes are usually found either
> lying on the bottom or staying near the surface of the water.
>
> Treatment is a full 15-minute freshwater dip to remove the parasites
> from the fish. [...] Today's clownfish hatcheries have eradicated
> this disease from their stock, and buying captive-raised fishes is one
> reasonably sure way to steer clear of this problem.
>
> My own problems started with the addition of two captive-raised clowns (along
> with some shrimp and snails), so I guess that's not a guarantee. Oh well.
>
> Took all three of my remaining ocellaris clowns out last night and gave them
> a 15-minute freshwater dip. Incredible on the black clown: after 5 minutes,
> white flakes started peeling off his skin and falling down in the water.
>
> Looks much better (color) this morning, although still not much appetite, and
> one fin is mostly glued to its body, so it swims kind of lame. But far better
> than last night.
>
> Hopefully it will recover, and the other two clowns won't catch the parasite.
> Although at this point perhaps the parasite has established itself in my reef
> tank as a whole. That would be sad. If I'm lucky, I killed it by putting the
> clowns into a freshwater dip.
>
> (I also hope that Brooklynella doesn't/didn't spread to other species: there's
> no way I can catch my mandarin dragonet or purple tang without taking all the
> rock out. So those two aren't going to be getting a freshwater dip.)
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
> Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking
> through your stuff. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey