PH and Neutralizers

[jonboy]

Hi,

My LFS said that my water looked good but that my PH was high. He suggested
using Kent's PH Precise 7.0 in powder form to get the water to 7.0. My tank
is about 7 weeks old and all the fish seem happy. One of the fish he sold
me died so he did a water test and wanted me to lower the PH. The fish was
a Bolivian Ram which I read can be very temperamental. Anyway, the PH
Controller advertises to lower or raise the PH to 7.0 with buffers to keep
the water at that PH. My reservation is that I am adding a chemical to the
water and am afraid that it may do more harm then good. Also, the product
adds phosphates (has a phosphate buffer) to the tank which promotes algae
growth. And I believe this also increases Nitrates.

My alternatives are to use PH up but I'm very hesitant about adding Sulfuric
acid to my water. Sulfuric acid is a very strong acid that I've used before
to unclog drainage pipes. I also have a heavily planted tank and I'm not
sure if the plants would like this either. My other alternative is not to
take the LFS advice and leave the PH as it is. My PH is at 7.4-7.5 and I
have a 55 gallon tank with Mollies, Barbs, Loaches, Tetras, eels, a Beta,
Pleco and two small catfish.

My feeling is that the LFS is trying to make me jump through hoops before he
replaces the 20.00 fish that died and trying to sell me stuff I don't need.
I relatively new at all this so I could really use good advice. Also, My
Nitrites and Ammonia are at Zero.

Thanks

[Jeff Pratt]

jonboy wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My LFS said that my water looked good but that my PH was high. He
> suggested
> using Kent's PH Precise 7.0 in powder form to get the water to 7.0. My
> tank
> is about 7 weeks old and all the fish seem happy. One of the fish he sold
> me died so he did a water test and wanted me to lower the PH. The fish
> was
> a Bolivian Ram which I read can be very temperamental.

I currently keep 3 Bolivian Rams. In PH ~7.4 water. With no ill effects.
I did put them through an extended acclimation period, though.

Did you have only the one ram, or are there others that survived? They do
prefer the company of their own kind.

Bolivian Rams are less touchy about their water parameters than Blue Rams.

Here's a page about blue rams, with some bolivian info as well.
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/CichlidPimp/

> Anyway, the PH
> Controller advertises to lower or raise the PH to 7.0 with buffers to keep
> the water at that PH. My reservation is that I am adding a chemical to
> the
> water and am afraid that it may do more harm then good. Also, the product
> adds phosphates (has a phosphate buffer) to the tank which promotes algae
> growth. And I believe this also increases Nitrates.

The addition of phosphates can promote algae growth, but will not affect
your nitrates.

> My alternatives are to use PH up but I'm very hesitant about adding
> Sulfuric
> acid to my water. Sulfuric acid is a very strong acid that I've used
> before
> to unclog drainage pipes. I also have a heavily planted tank and I'm not
> sure if the plants would like this either. My other alternative is not to
> take the LFS advice and leave the PH as it is. My PH is at 7.4-7.5 and I
> have a 55 gallon tank with Mollies, Barbs, Loaches, Tetras, eels, a Beta,
> Pleco and two small catfish.

You have fish that are pretty much all over the spectrum with regards to
water parameters. If you do not wish to segregate them, you're best off
with a near-neutral PH (around 7.0) with the proviso that adjusting your PH
can cause lethal PH swings.

> My feeling is that the LFS is trying to make me jump through hoops before
> he replaces the 20.00 fish that died and trying to sell me stuff I don't
> need. I relatively new at all this so I could really use good advice.
> Also, My Nitrites and Ammonia are at Zero.

My gut feel on this is to disregard his advice, and leave your water alone.
You will need to account for the non-optimal PH in your fish choices and
acclimation. If you are adding a fish which requires more acidic water,
give them a longer acclimation period. Some fish which REQUIRE soft acidic
water will be denied to you.

Ideally you'd segregate your fish by water parameters.

The mollies and possibly the eel (I don't know what kind of eel you have so
I can't be sure) would enjoy a little salinity in their tank.

The barbs, loaches, betta, and possibly the eel will prefer more neutral
water.

The tetras, pleco, small catfish (I'm assuming a variety of corydora) and
once again, possibly the eel will prefer softer acidic water.

These are only generalizations though, since I don't have more specific
information to work with. For instance, there are some loaches that prefer
soft acidic water, and some tetras that prefer hard alkaline water.

> Thanks

You're welcome.

Jeff

[Morten]

"jonboy" > wrote in message
et...
> Hi,
>
> My alternatives are to use PH up but I'm very hesitant about adding
Sulfuric
> acid to my water. Sulfuric acid is a very strong acid that I've used
before
> to unclog drainage pipes. I also have a heavily planted tank and I'm not
> sure if the plants would like this either. My other alternative is not to
> take the LFS advice and leave the PH as it is. My PH is at 7.4-7.5 and I
> have a 55 gallon tank with Mollies, Barbs, Loaches, Tetras, eels, a Beta,
> Pleco and two small catfish.

If you have a heavily planted tank you could start adding CO2 to the tank,
that will lover the pH and give some more CO2 to the plants which they will
love you for.

What's your kH and gH, its best to have the kH at at least 4 - 5 before
starting to add CO2 to prevent to lover th pH to much.


/Morten




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[Fishkid]

I find this article. It says that acid raises the phophates which would
elevate nitrates. Maybe a resident expert can confirm this from the article
that I'm posting for you to read.


Raising and Lowering pH

One can raise or lower pH by adding chemicals. Because of buffering,
however, the process is difficult to get right. Increasing or decreasing the
pH (in a stable way) actually involves changing the KH. The most common
approach is to add a buffer (in the previous section) whose equilibrium
holds the pH at the desired value. Muriatic (hydrochloric) acid can be used
to reduce pH.

Note that the exact quantity needed depends on the water's buffering
capacity. In effect, you add enough acid to use up all the buffering
capacity. Once this has been done, decreasing the pH is easy. However, it
should be noted that the resultant lower-pH water has much less KH buffering
than it did before, making it more susceptible to pH swings when (for
instance) nitrate levels rise.

Warning: It goes without saying that acids are VERY dangerous! Do not use
this approach unless you know what you are doing, and you should treat the
water BEFORE adding it to the aquarium. Products such as "pH-Down'' are
often based on a phosphoric acid buffer. Phosphoric acid tends to keep the
pH at roughly 6.5, depending on how much you use.

Unfortunately, use of phosphoric acid has the BIG side effect of raising the
phosphate level in your tank, stimulating algae growth. It is difficult to
control algae growth in a tank with elevated phosphate levels. The only
advantage over hydrochloric acid is that pH will be somewhat better buffered
at its lower value. One safe way to lower pH WITHOUT adjusting KH is to
bubble CO2 (carbon dioxide) through the tank.

The CO2 dissolves in water, and some of it forms carbonic acid. The
formation of acid lowers the pH. Of course, in order for this approach to be
practical, a steady source of CO2 bubbles (e.g. a CO2 tank) is needed to
hold the pH in place. As soon as the CO2 is gone, the pH bounces back to its
previous value. The high cost of a CO2 injection system precludes its use as
a pH lowering technique in most aquariums. CO2 injection systems are highly
popular in heavily-planted tanks, because the additional CO2 stimulates
plant growth.

[Fishkid]

I did some more reading and found out that older PH down used phosphoric
acid which does add nitrates to the water. However, the newer PH up and
most other products use Sulfuric acid to lower PH which doesn't add
nitrates.

Good luck
"Fishkid" > wrote in message
et...
> I find this article. It says that acid raises the phophates which would
> elevate nitrates. Maybe a resident expert can confirm this from the
article
> that I'm posting for you to read.
>
>
> Raising and Lowering pH
>
> One can raise or lower pH by adding chemicals. Because of buffering,
> however, the process is difficult to get right. Increasing or decreasing
the
> pH (in a stable way) actually involves changing the KH. The most common
> approach is to add a buffer (in the previous section) whose equilibrium
> holds the pH at the desired value. Muriatic (hydrochloric) acid can be
used
> to reduce pH.
>
> Note that the exact quantity needed depends on the water's buffering
> capacity. In effect, you add enough acid to use up all the buffering
> capacity. Once this has been done, decreasing the pH is easy. However, it
> should be noted that the resultant lower-pH water has much less KH
buffering
> than it did before, making it more susceptible to pH swings when (for
> instance) nitrate levels rise.
>
> Warning: It goes without saying that acids are VERY dangerous! Do not use
> this approach unless you know what you are doing, and you should treat the
> water BEFORE adding it to the aquarium. Products such as "pH-Down'' are
> often based on a phosphoric acid buffer. Phosphoric acid tends to keep the
> pH at roughly 6.5, depending on how much you use.
>
> Unfortunately, use of phosphoric acid has the BIG side effect of raising
the
> phosphate level in your tank, stimulating algae growth. It is difficult to
> control algae growth in a tank with elevated phosphate levels. The only
> advantage over hydrochloric acid is that pH will be somewhat better
buffered
> at its lower value. One safe way to lower pH WITHOUT adjusting KH is to
> bubble CO2 (carbon dioxide) through the tank.
>
> The CO2 dissolves in water, and some of it forms carbonic acid. The
> formation of acid lowers the pH. Of course, in order for this approach to
be
> practical, a steady source of CO2 bubbles (e.g. a CO2 tank) is needed to
> hold the pH in place. As soon as the CO2 is gone, the pH bounces back to
its
> previous value. The high cost of a CO2 injection system precludes its use
as
> a pH lowering technique in most aquariums. CO2 injection systems are
highly
> popular in heavily-planted tanks, because the additional CO2 stimulates
> plant growth.
>
>