Goldfish color.. questions...

[Gareee©]

Just had a odd question.

We just have the 26 cent walmart goldfish in our pond.

All the ones we purchased are bright orange color, some with white or black
accents.

Most of the first spawn are also gold, but about 1/2 of them are dark
colored.

I remember reading that fry start out dark, but then turn gold once they
get a little older, and we did see that happening, but some just remained
that dark color!

Is that common?

Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

[Koi-Lo]

"Gareee©" > wrote in message
...
> Just had a odd question.
>
> We just have the 26 cent walmart goldfish in our pond.
>
> All the ones we purchased are bright orange color, some with white or
> black accents.
>
> Most of the first spawn are also gold, but about 1/2 of them are dark
> colored.
>
> I remember reading that fry start out dark, but then turn gold once they
> get a little older, and we did see that happening, but some just remained
> that dark color!
>
> Is that common?
=======================
YES! They will revert back to their natural color if given the change.
Cull the dark ones out and give them to a farmer for his stock ponds. For
the best looking goldfish over the long-haul also cull out all the solid
color oranges and keep those that are orange and white with the longest
finnage. The prettiest goldfish are the Shubunkins in my opinion and I see
their prices have gone up in the past few years. You wont find them in my
area for 99¢ anymore.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[2pods]

"Gareee©" > wrote in message
...
> Just had a odd question.
>
> We just have the 26 cent walmart goldfish in our pond.
>
> All the ones we purchased are bright orange color, some with white or
> black accents.
>
> Most of the first spawn are also gold, but about 1/2 of them are dark
> colored.
>
> I remember reading that fry start out dark, but then turn gold once they
> get a little older, and we did see that happening, but some just remained
> that dark color!
>
> Is that common?
>
> Gareee©
> (Gary Tabar Jr.)
>
AFAIK some of them never change colour, and these would be the culls of a
dealer or breeder.
However, I just keep mine :-)

Peter

[Derek Broughton]

Gareee© wrote:

> Just had a odd question.
>
> We just have the 26 cent walmart goldfish in our pond.
>
> All the ones we purchased are bright orange color, some with white or
> black accents.
>
> Most of the first spawn are also gold, but about 1/2 of them are dark
> colored.
>
> I remember reading that fry start out dark, but then turn gold once they
> get a little older, and we did see that happening, but some just remained
> that dark color!
>
> Is that common?

How old _are_ they? It can take quite some time - and eventually, without
selective breeding, they breed right back to a dull brown color anyway. If
they've reached 3" without changing, they probably aren't going to, but
I've had them get that large and then start.
--
derek

[Gareee©]

Thanks for the replys, guys.. and yep, most are 3" or longer.

Wish I knew of a farmer that could take them, but if the pond looks
overstocked by the end of the year, I supposed releasing the extra in a
nearby man made lake would be acceptable.


--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

[Koi-Lo]

"Gareee©" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the replys, guys.. and yep, most are 3" or longer.
>
> Wish I knew of a farmer that could take them, but if the pond looks
> overstocked by the end of the year, I supposed releasing the extra in a
> nearby man made lake would be acceptable.
==========================
Yes, people do that here as well. We have a large man-made lake where I
have SEEN people pour out a bucket of either goldfish or small orange
colored koi. They stock this lake with largemouth bass and there are huge
catfish there as well. I'm sure most end up dinner for these predators but
it's better than tossing them on a compost pile (and one man I know does
that as well) and die a lingering death by suffocation.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gill Passman]

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Thanks for the replys, guys.. and yep, most are 3" or longer.
>>
>> Wish I knew of a farmer that could take them, but if the pond looks
>> overstocked by the end of the year, I supposed releasing the extra in
>> a nearby man made lake would be acceptable.
>
> ==========================
> Yes, people do that here as well. We have a large man-made lake where I
> have SEEN people pour out a bucket of either goldfish or small orange
> colored koi. They stock this lake with largemouth bass and there are
> huge catfish there as well. I'm sure most end up dinner for these
> predators but it's better than tossing them on a compost pile (and one
> man I know does that as well) and die a lingering death by suffocation.

I think that you have to be very careful when considering releasing
non-native fish into the environment whatever predators are out there....

1. They could go native and destroy the eco system
2. They could be diseased and kill off the wildlife preying on them or
preying on the fish that eat them.

I don't know the answer for those of you who are overly successful in
breeding your fish but I don't think releasing them into the wild is the
right way....

Gill

[Charles]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 21:51:59 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Thanks for the replys, guys.. and yep, most are 3" or longer.
>>>
>>> Wish I knew of a farmer that could take them, but if the pond looks
>>> overstocked by the end of the year, I supposed releasing the extra in
>>> a nearby man made lake would be acceptable.
>>
>> ==========================
>> Yes, people do that here as well. We have a large man-made lake where I
>> have SEEN people pour out a bucket of either goldfish or small orange
>> colored koi. They stock this lake with largemouth bass and there are
>> huge catfish there as well. I'm sure most end up dinner for these
>> predators but it's better than tossing them on a compost pile (and one
>> man I know does that as well) and die a lingering death by suffocation.
>
>I think that you have to be very careful when considering releasing
>non-native fish into the environment whatever predators are out there....
>
>1. They could go native and destroy the eco system
>2. They could be diseased and kill off the wildlife preying on them or
>preying on the fish that eat them.
>
>I don't know the answer for those of you who are overly successful in
>breeding your fish but I don't think releasing them into the wild is the
>right way....
>
>Gill


I donate mine either to the LFS feeder tub or the ponds at the local
water garden nursery, depending on their quality. Pretty ones go to
the nursery, plain ones to the LFS.

[CanadianCowboy©]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Thanks for the replys, guys.. and yep, most are 3" or longer.
>>>
>>> Wish I knew of a farmer that could take them, but if the pond looks
>>> overstocked by the end of the year, I supposed releasing the extra in
>>> a nearby man made lake would be acceptable.
>>
>> ==========================
>> Yes, people do that here as well. We have a large man-made lake where
>> I have SEEN people pour out a bucket of either goldfish or small
>> orange colored koi. They stock this lake with largemouth bass and
>> there are huge catfish there as well. I'm sure most end up dinner for
>> these predators but it's better than tossing them on a compost pile
>> (and one man I know does that as well) and die a lingering death by
>> suffocation.
>
> I think that you have to be very careful when considering releasing
> non-native fish into the environment whatever predators are out there....
>
> 1. They could go native and destroy the eco system
> 2. They could be diseased and kill off the wildlife preying on them or
> preying on the fish that eat them.
>
> I don't know the answer for those of you who are overly successful in
> breeding your fish but I don't think releasing them into the wild is the
> right way....
>
> Gill
Gill you are 100 % correct and here in Ontario, Canada there are strict
laws on transporting fish from one lake to another.
Even some of the water plants can get into the lakes and cause severe
damage.

YES putting them into your garden as fertilizer sounds cruel but alot
more beneficial to everybody.

[Mr. Gardener]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 21:51:59 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Thanks for the replys, guys.. and yep, most are 3" or longer.
>>>
>>> Wish I knew of a farmer that could take them, but if the pond looks
>>> overstocked by the end of the year, I supposed releasing the extra in
>>> a nearby man made lake would be acceptable.
>>
>> ==========================
>> Yes, people do that here as well. We have a large man-made lake where I
>> have SEEN people pour out a bucket of either goldfish or small orange
>> colored koi. They stock this lake with largemouth bass and there are
>> huge catfish there as well. I'm sure most end up dinner for these
>> predators but it's better than tossing them on a compost pile (and one
>> man I know does that as well) and die a lingering death by suffocation.
>
>I think that you have to be very careful when considering releasing
>non-native fish into the environment whatever predators are out there....
>
>1. They could go native and destroy the eco system
>2. They could be diseased and kill off the wildlife preying on them or
>preying on the fish that eat them.
>
>I don't know the answer for those of you who are overly successful in
>breeding your fish but I don't think releasing them into the wild is the
>right way....
>
>Gill

Amen. And one good flooding storm can send those goldfish into the
next waterway and from there to who knows where.

-- Mister Gardener

[Koi-Lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Thanks for the replys, guys.. and yep, most are 3" or longer.
>>>
>>> Wish I knew of a farmer that could take them, but if the pond looks
>>> overstocked by the end of the year, I supposed releasing the extra in a
>>> nearby man made lake would be acceptable.
>>
>> ==========================
>> Yes, people do that here as well. We have a large man-made lake where I
>> have SEEN people pour out a bucket of either goldfish or small orange
>> colored koi. They stock this lake with largemouth bass and there are
>> huge catfish there as well. I'm sure most end up dinner for these
>> predators but it's better than tossing them on a compost pile (and one
>> man I know does that as well) and die a lingering death by suffocation.
>
> I think that you have to be very careful when considering releasing
> non-native fish into the environment whatever predators are out there....

This is true Gill. I don't know where this lake drains off to as I never
checked on a map. Fortunately I can get rid of mine in a farm stock pond.

> 1. They could go native and destroy the eco system

Man made lakes here are not a natural system. It appears that goldfish and
koi have not naturalized in our lakes. Probably because of all the
predators and their bright colors. But what you said also applies to
backyard ponds. How many people have their ponds netted to keep out
wildlife and possibly spreading disease to natural eco systems?

> 2. They could be diseased and kill off the wildlife preying on them or
> preying on the fish that eat them.

They can do the same thing feeding in someone's unnetted backyard pond.
Herons and Kingfishers will feed in an unnatural backyard pond as well as
any other body of water. Before we netted our ponds I even saw what looked
like some kind of hawk carrying off a fish. So we can spread disease as
well as the predators bringing our pond disease/parasites from nature. It
goes both ways.

> I don't know the answer for those of you who are overly successful in
> breeding your fish but I don't think releasing them into the wild is the
> right way....

I agree.... but to prevent wildlife from carrying GF and koi eggs to
natural water and marsh habitats we would all have to net our ponds. My
neighbor's stock pond is at least a mile from the lake and always has
sunfish in it!!! Some water bird (or other form of wildlife) must be
bringing them in.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
>
> I donate mine either to the LFS feeder tub or the ponds at the local
> water garden nursery, depending on their quality. Pretty ones go to
> the nursery, plain ones to the LFS.
=================
I have no problem selling or trading the pretty Shubunkins. It's the ugly
brown ones and short finned orange ones no one wants that go to the farm
stock ponds. Since I now have only Shubunkin goldfish, I no longer get the
short finned orange but still get the occasional ugly brown fish. Better
they are used for mosquito control than as feeders in the pet stores.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"CanadianCowboy©" > wrote in message
...
> Gill you are 100 % correct and here in Ontario, Canada there are strict
> laws on transporting fish from one lake to another.

This also applies here to natural waterways and lakes. I don't know about
man-made lakes and ponds since so many people now have back-yard ponds.
Many farms here have stock ponds. It would be impossible to keep water
birds and other wildlife from spreading koi and goldfish to natural
waterways. See my post above - we believe water birds are bringing in the
sunfish to my neighbor's stock pond on the adjoining property. They pick up
the eggs on their feet and feathers as they wade and swim around a nearby
man-made lake. They can just as well pick up koi and goldfish eggs and
carry them back to nature.

> Even some of the water plants can get into the lakes and cause severe
> damage.

Fortunately that hasn't happened yet to the man-made lake near us.

> YES putting them into your garden as fertilizer sounds cruel but alot more
> beneficial to everybody.

If they're humanely euthanized first.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj]

>I don't know the answer for those of you who are overly successful in
>breeding your fish but I don't think releasing them into the wild is the
>right way.... >Gill

I agree, ask permission at the very least. Supposedly there is some law on
the books (YMMV) that fish stores HAVE to take them. Here they will give
you store credit, so you might want to check into that before giving them
away.

It never fails I go up to the Demo Pond and there is some new (and often
ugly) goldfish added... or worst, someone has fished out the koi we put in
there as small fry, grew up to a foot, and someone takes them. That was
quite irritating, I even wrote a letter to the editor on that, and a kind
soul donated $150 towards the pond after she read it. Guess it was worth
the effort of writing, but we all would have liked to have our fish back.
Even though they weren't worth anything near $150. ~ jan



~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 22:04:55 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>>
>>> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the replys, guys.. and yep, most are 3" or longer.
>>>>
>>>> Wish I knew of a farmer that could take them, but if the pond looks
>>>> overstocked by the end of the year, I supposed releasing the extra in a
>>>> nearby man made lake would be acceptable.
>>>
>>> ==========================
>>> Yes, people do that here as well. We have a large man-made lake where I
>>> have SEEN people pour out a bucket of either goldfish or small orange
>>> colored koi. They stock this lake with largemouth bass and there are
>>> huge catfish there as well. I'm sure most end up dinner for these
>>> predators but it's better than tossing them on a compost pile (and one
>>> man I know does that as well) and die a lingering death by suffocation.
>>
>> I think that you have to be very careful when considering releasing
>> non-native fish into the environment whatever predators are out there....
>
>This is true Gill. I don't know where this lake drains off to as I never
>checked on a map. Fortunately I can get rid of mine in a farm stock pond.
>
>> 1. They could go native and destroy the eco system
>
>Man made lakes here are not a natural system. It appears that goldfish and
>koi have not naturalized in our lakes. Probably because of all the
>predators and their bright colors. But what you said also applies to
>backyard ponds. How many people have their ponds netted to keep out
>wildlife and possibly spreading disease to natural eco systems?
>
>> 2. They could be diseased and kill off the wildlife preying on them or
>> preying on the fish that eat them.
>
>They can do the same thing feeding in someone's unnetted backyard pond.
>Herons and Kingfishers will feed in an unnatural backyard pond as well as
>any other body of water. Before we netted our ponds I even saw what looked
>like some kind of hawk carrying off a fish. So we can spread disease as
>well as the predators bringing our pond disease/parasites from nature. It
>goes both ways.
>
>> I don't know the answer for those of you who are overly successful in
>> breeding your fish but I don't think releasing them into the wild is the
>> right way....
>
>I agree.... but to prevent wildlife from carrying GF and koi eggs to
>natural water and marsh habitats we would all have to net our ponds. My
>neighbor's stock pond is at least a mile from the lake and always has
>sunfish in it!!! Some water bird (or other form of wildlife) must be
>bringing them in.

I like the way my state, Maine, is dealing with the potential problem.
It is illegal to keep goldfish outside. In ponds or bathtubs or kiddie
pools or anything. You won't find "pond fish" being sold openly at pet
stores - pond fish referring to ordinary large goldfish. I'm not
saying it doesn't happen, and we don't have a Goldfish Enforcement
Squad, but cutting them off at the pet store chokes the supply chain a
little. Koi and fancy goldfish are sold, but not for outdoor keeping.
(I'm not smart about goldfish, all I know is the plain kind and the
fancy kind.) I just noted while reviewing the state wildlife laws that
it is also illegal for pet shops to sell snails of any kind. Jack
Dempsey fish have been recently banned in the state. Interesting.
Many residents are pushing to increase the banned list to include
black flies and tourists from Massachusetts.

-- Mister Gardener

[[email protected]]

or better yet, feed you dog with the fish. very good nutrition. one of our dogs
eats nothing but fish, the others get it once a week. (ok, so it is store fish and
is frozen. freezing is important to make sure there are no protozoans being
transferred). Ingrid

Hal > wrote:
>The fish you don't want and can't find someone that wants them, are
>better used as fertilizer, just don't let the dog in your garden.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Derek Broughton]

Gill Passman wrote:

> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Thanks for the replys, guys.. and yep, most are 3" or longer.
>>>
>>> Wish I knew of a farmer that could take them, but if the pond looks
>>> overstocked by the end of the year, I supposed releasing the extra in
>>> a nearby man made lake would be acceptable.
>>
>> ==========================
>> Yes, people do that here as well. We have a large man-made lake where I
>> have SEEN people pour out a bucket of either goldfish or small orange
>> colored koi. They stock this lake with largemouth bass and there are
>> huge catfish there as well. I'm sure most end up dinner for these
>> predators but it's better than tossing them on a compost pile (and one
>> man I know does that as well) and die a lingering death by suffocation.
>
> I think that you have to be very careful when considering releasing
> non-native fish into the environment whatever predators are out there....
>
> 1. They could go native and destroy the eco system
> 2. They could be diseased and kill off the wildlife preying on them or
> preying on the fish that eat them.
>
> I don't know the answer for those of you who are overly successful in
> breeding your fish but I don't think releasing them into the wild is the
> right way....

Google for '"Utah Lake" carp'. OK, not too many people are going to lose
sleep over the loss of the June sucker, and the carp have been there for
over a century, but releasing non-native fish into a waterway is a crime,
and a generally really bad idea.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

~ janj wrote:

> It never fails I go up to the Demo Pond and there is some new (and often
> ugly) goldfish added... or worst, someone has fished out the koi we put in
> there as small fry, grew up to a foot, and someone takes them. That was
> quite irritating, I even wrote a letter to the editor on that, and a kind
> soul donated $150 towards the pond after she read it.

Kindness? Or a guilty conscience? Ah, well, it's healthier to think it was
kindness. :-)
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

Mister Gardener wrote:

> I like the way my state, Maine, is dealing with the potential problem.
> It is illegal to keep goldfish outside. In ponds or bathtubs or kiddie
> pools or anything. You won't find "pond fish" being sold openly at pet
> stores - pond fish referring to ordinary large goldfish. I'm not
> saying it doesn't happen, and we don't have a Goldfish Enforcement
> Squad, but cutting them off at the pet store chokes the supply chain a
> little.

I'd think that that doesn't do so much to choke off the supply chain as to
cut off legitimate means to dispose of unwanted fish.

> Koi and fancy goldfish are sold, but not for outdoor keeping.

If they can sell fish for "indoor" ponds, how about "feeder goldfish"?
That's what the fish we're talking about are (even if their parents
weren't, pond culls still will be).

> (I'm not smart about goldfish, all I know is the plain kind and the
> fancy kind.) I just noted while reviewing the state wildlife laws that
> it is also illegal for pet shops to sell snails of any kind. Jack
> Dempsey fish have been recently banned in the state.

Jack Dempsey? They're _tropical_. What a stupid law. They probably won't
thrive in most Maine waters in high summer, they certainly won't survive
the winter. As for selling snails - I've never got a plant from a store
that didn't have snails. I wonder if your stores sterilize their plants.

> Many residents are pushing to increase the banned list to include
> black flies and tourists from Massachusetts.

I'm sure the black fly proposal is very popular, but a lot of folks in Maine
rely on those Massachusetts tourists for an income. It could be a pretty
divisive vote :-)
--
derek

[Gill Passman]

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the replys, guys.. and yep, most are 3" or longer.
>>>>
>>>> Wish I knew of a farmer that could take them, but if the pond looks
>>>> overstocked by the end of the year, I supposed releasing the extra
>>>> in a nearby man made lake would be acceptable.
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========================
>>> Yes, people do that here as well. We have a large man-made lake
>>> where I have SEEN people pour out a bucket of either goldfish or
>>> small orange colored koi. They stock this lake with largemouth bass
>>> and there are huge catfish there as well. I'm sure most end up
>>> dinner for these predators but it's better than tossing them on a
>>> compost pile (and one man I know does that as well) and die a
>>> lingering death by suffocation.
>>
>>
>> I think that you have to be very careful when considering releasing
>> non-native fish into the environment whatever predators are out there....
>
>
> This is true Gill. I don't know where this lake drains off to as I
> never checked on a map. Fortunately I can get rid of mine in a farm
> stock pond.
>
>> 1. They could go native and destroy the eco system
>
>
> Man made lakes here are not a natural system. It appears that goldfish
> and koi have not naturalized in our lakes. Probably because of all the
> predators and their bright colors. But what you said also applies to
> backyard ponds. How many people have their ponds netted to keep out
> wildlife and possibly spreading disease to natural eco systems?
>
>> 2. They could be diseased and kill off the wildlife preying on them or
>> preying on the fish that eat them.
>
>
> They can do the same thing feeding in someone's unnetted backyard pond.
> Herons and Kingfishers will feed in an unnatural backyard pond as well
> as any other body of water. Before we netted our ponds I even saw what
> looked like some kind of hawk carrying off a fish. So we can spread
> disease as well as the predators bringing our pond disease/parasites
> from nature. It goes both ways.
>
>> I don't know the answer for those of you who are overly successful in
>> breeding your fish but I don't think releasing them into the wild is
>> the right way....
>
>
> I agree.... but to prevent wildlife from carrying GF and koi eggs to
> natural water and marsh habitats we would all have to net our ponds. My
> neighbor's stock pond is at least a mile from the lake and always has
> sunfish in it!!! Some water bird (or other form of wildlife) must be
> bringing them in.

Without the extremes of banning people from keeping fish outside
altogether as appears to be the case in Maine...I would advocate common
sense. Obviously it is nigh on impossible to prevent birds from carrying
eggs without as you say netting the pond there is a slight difference
between these things being accidentally transported as eggs and the
deliberate release of viable fish that have already reached a reasonable
size....that in likelihood will have a good chance of surviving into
adulthood.

It is just something that I believe should be thought about before
releasing "domestic fish" into the wild....where they don't belong...
I just think, rabbits/Australia and Grey Squirrels/UK...

Gill

[Koi-Lo]

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 22:04:55 -0600, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>>I agree.... but to prevent wildlife from carrying GF and koi eggs to
>>natural water and marsh habitats we would all have to net our ponds. My
>>neighbor's stock pond is at least a mile from the lake and always has
>>sunfish in it!!! Some water bird (or other form of wildlife) must be
>>bringing them in.
=======================
> I like the way my state, Maine, is dealing with the potential problem.
> It is illegal to keep goldfish outside. In ponds or bathtubs or kiddie
> pools or anything. You won't find "pond fish" being sold openly at pet
> stores - pond fish referring to ordinary large goldfish. I'm not
> saying it doesn't happen, and we don't have a Goldfish Enforcement
> Squad, but cutting them off at the pet store chokes the supply chain a
> little. Koi and fancy goldfish are sold, but not for outdoor keeping.

If the state wants to keep them OUT of your waterways and lakes then that's
the only way to go. Since my neighbor's stock pond is a mile from the
man-made lake yet has sunfish every year, I know that wildlife can spread
fish from one place to another and so the diseases with them.

> (I'm not smart about goldfish, all I know is the plain kind and the
> fancy kind.) I just noted while reviewing the state wildlife laws that
> it is also illegal for pet shops to sell snails of any kind.

Tropical snails would hardly survive your winters.

Jack
> Dempsey fish have been recently banned in the state. Interesting.

Now that makes no sense.......

> Many residents are pushing to increase the banned list to include
> black flies and tourists from Massachusetts.

Banning black flies - now that's what I want to hear.

> -- Mister Gardener
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>> I agree.... but to prevent wildlife from carrying GF and koi eggs to
>> natural water and marsh habitats we would all have to net our ponds. My
>> neighbor's stock pond is at least a mile from the lake and always has
>> sunfish in it!!! Some water bird (or other form of wildlife) must be
>> bringing them in.
========
> Without the extremes of banning people from keeping fish outside
> altogether as appears to be the case in Maine...I would advocate common
> sense.

Common sense in our land would be to make the pet stores take all the excess
fish the fish they sell produce. I wouldn't know what to do with my culls
if I had no access to a farm stock pond. I just found out this morning that
a store in the city is buying the rest of my koi fry. :-)))) That'll
empty two 150g pools out there.

Obviously it is nigh on impossible to prevent birds from carrying
> eggs without as you say netting the pond there is a slight difference
> between these things being accidentally transported as eggs and the
> deliberate release of viable fish that have already reached a reasonable
> size....that in likelihood will have a good chance of surviving into
> adulthood.

This is true but no one enforces the laws where I live and people probably
know it. Poaching deer here just recently stopped when new homes were built
along the Corp of Engineers Land. When I'd call Wildlife about the poachers
I was told they were short handed and blah, blah.... blah. I was afraid
either a passing motorist, kid on a bike or myself would be shot one day. I
didn't even bother to call them about seeing the fish dumped........

> It is just something that I believe should be thought about before
> releasing "domestic fish" into the wild....where they don't belong...
> I just think, rabbits/Australia and Grey Squirrels/UK...

We have problems as well with released fish in the tropical areas of
Florida. We also have a problem with European Starlings and English
sparrows. Idiotic people are even allowing Python snakes to escape, or
maybe they released them. One ate a woman's pet poodle. Now these snakes
can eat human babies to small adults when full grown. Why the heck is the
Gov. allowing them to be bred and sold here?
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Hal" > wrote in message
...
>
> The fish you don't want and can't find someone that wants them, are
> better used as fertilizer, just don't let the dog in your garden.
==================
If even the mom and pop shops wont take them for free then I think
eutanizing them humanely is the way to go. Once dead it doesn't matter
anymore. But to toss healthy living fish on a compost heap to suffer
suffocation is cruel. Just my opinion.....
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Mister Gardener]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 11:57:04 -0400, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>Mister Gardener wrote:
>
>> I like the way my state, Maine, is dealing with the potential problem.
>> It is illegal to keep goldfish outside. In ponds or bathtubs or kiddie
>> pools or anything. You won't find "pond fish" being sold openly at pet
>> stores - pond fish referring to ordinary large goldfish. I'm not
>> saying it doesn't happen, and we don't have a Goldfish Enforcement
>> Squad, but cutting them off at the pet store chokes the supply chain a
>> little.
>
>I'd think that that doesn't do so much to choke off the supply chain as to
>cut off legitimate means to dispose of unwanted fish.
>
>> Koi and fancy goldfish are sold, but not for outdoor keeping.
>
>If they can sell fish for "indoor" ponds, how about "feeder goldfish"?
>That's what the fish we're talking about are (even if their parents
>weren't, pond culls still will be).
>
>> (I'm not smart about goldfish, all I know is the plain kind and the
>> fancy kind.) I just noted while reviewing the state wildlife laws that
>> it is also illegal for pet shops to sell snails of any kind. Jack
>> Dempsey fish have been recently banned in the state.
>
>Jack Dempsey? They're _tropical_. What a stupid law. They probably won't
>thrive in most Maine waters in high summer, they certainly won't survive
>the winter. As for selling snails - I've never got a plant from a store
>that didn't have snails. I wonder if your stores sterilize their plants.
>
>> Many residents are pushing to increase the banned list to include
>> black flies and tourists from Massachusetts.
>
>I'm sure the black fly proposal is very popular, but a lot of folks in Maine
>rely on those Massachusetts tourists for an income. It could be a pretty
>divisive vote :-)

Rationale on snails: Snails - Because they serve as intermediate host
for a wide range of aquatic parasites and other pathogens, all snails
(Gastropoda) are restricted and can be imported only by a special
importation permit with specific health certifications, therefore
snails cannot be traded by commercial pet shops.

The department is presently considering banning the importation of all
livestock, which includes fish and birds and furry creatures, that
were not captive bred.

Jack Dempseys were found to be capable of surviving this climate and
are an invasive species.

I really don't think these wildlife biologists are a bunch of stupid
guys with a grudge. I think they probably understand the environmental
risks from invasive species better than we do. These laws are not new,
they go back several years and they are constantly reviewing new
information as it becomes available. The list is updated each January.
And I am sure Maine is not the only state with laws this strict.

-- Mister Gardener

[netDenizen]

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> ... eutanizing them humanely is the way to go. Once dead it doesn't matter
> anymore. But to toss healthy living fish on a compost heap to suffer
> suffocation is cruel. Just my opinion.....

Yes, that's right. There's no reason to be cruel to our pets, fish
included. Just dispatch the fish as an angler would.

[Derek Broughton]

Mister Gardener wrote:

> The department is presently considering banning the importation of all
> livestock, which includes fish and birds and furry creatures, that
> were not captive bred.

Which I don't consider a bad idea.

> Jack Dempseys were found to be capable of surviving this climate and
> are an invasive species.

I'm looking for evidence - but I really, really, doubt this. One report
which should be pretty reliable is
http://cars.er.usgs.gov/Nonindigenous_Species/R5draftreport.pdf&e=10401
This says that the Jack Dempsey has been _found_ in Connecticut only (of the
entire region from Virginia to Maine), and specifically refers
to "freshwater aquatic animals which may or may not be naturalized in New
England" (ie, they have found them, they haven't necessarily established
they're viable).

> I really don't think these wildlife biologists are a bunch of stupid
> guys with a grudge.

Heavens! I wouldn't say that - fisheries biologists pay my salary! I build
computer apps for the Canadian Department of Fisheries & Oceans.

> I think they probably understand the environmental
> risks from invasive species better than we do.

And I do believe the dangers of invasive species. I'm just not prepared to
believe Jack Dempseys are invasive.

> And I am sure Maine is not the only state with laws this strict.

Not at all. It's really not something that can be successfully enforced,
though. Some places try harder than others, but nobody succeeds.
--
derek

[Mister Gardener]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:45:48 -0400, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>Mister Gardener wrote:
>
>> The department is presently considering banning the importation of all
>> livestock, which includes fish and birds and furry creatures, that
>> were not captive bred.
>
>Which I don't consider a bad idea.
>
>> Jack Dempseys were found to be capable of surviving this climate and
>> are an invasive species.
>
>I'm looking for evidence - but I really, really, doubt this. One report
>which should be pretty reliable is
>http://cars.er.usgs.gov/Nonindigenous_Species/R5draftreport.pdf&e=10401
>This says that the Jack Dempsey has been _found_ in Connecticut only (of the
>entire region from Virginia to Maine), and specifically refers
>to "freshwater aquatic animals which may or may not be naturalized in New
>England" (ie, they have found them, they haven't necessarily established
>they're viable).
>
>> I really don't think these wildlife biologists are a bunch of stupid
>> guys with a grudge.
>
>Heavens! I wouldn't say that - fisheries biologists pay my salary! I build
>computer apps for the Canadian Department of Fisheries & Oceans.
>
>> I think they probably understand the environmental
>> risks from invasive species better than we do.
>
>And I do believe the dangers of invasive species. I'm just not prepared to
>believe Jack Dempseys are invasive.
>
>> And I am sure Maine is not the only state with laws this strict.
>
>Not at all. It's really not something that can be successfully enforced,
>though. Some places try harder than others, but nobody succeeds.

I agree with you on the Dempseys - but maybe there's more to the
Connecticut case than we know. Or maybe we're just being overcautious.
Like much of Canada, Maine is wicked cold, but we do have pockets of
gentler conditions and it is amazing how some species survive the
winters. I first became aware of the policies shortly after they began
to hit on the pet industry 12 or 15 years ago, my local fish seller is
also a good friend. There was an uproar from the pet industry and
others about the fact that the state decided to create their lists as
inclusionary rather than exclusionary. In other words, on day one, the
list was blank. As species are introduced to the committee they were
studied and added to the list as permissible. Or not. For the first
couple of years, the list of approved imports grew painfully slowly.
It's pretty well fleshed out now, and continues to grow. I was
particularly disappointed to see that one of my favorites, Tan's Fish,
the White Cloud Mountain Minnow has never made the list. Banned in
Maine. I secured a dozen or so while traveling one summer, and brought
them home in the back of my camper in globe bowls with battery pumps
and teeny little round undergravel filters. I loaded a 20 Long in my
bedroom with hornwort and watersprite and let them at it. They did go
forth and multiply - no heat required, room temp was fine, and we got
so much pleasure from that tank for 8 or 10 years until the last of
the last of the inbreds finally died. Hardy little fish. Wish I could
get some more. The ideal first fish for a newbie to the hobby.

Enforcement of any wildlife laws is spotty at best. The guy up the
lane who always has an illegal moose in his freezer is going to
continue to get away with his poaching. But the guys who had 20 moose
hanging in their camp got busted, and big time. And so it goes.

I've posted this link before, and I'll bet every state has a similar
link. http://www.maine.gov/ifw/wildlife/unrestrictedspecies.htm

-- Mister Gardener

[Derek Broughton]

Mister Gardener wrote:

> I agree with you on the Dempseys - but maybe there's more to the
> Connecticut case than we know.

I would be willing to bet somebody released a Dempsey into a reasonably warm
lake at the earliest date it could have survived. Over a summer, a cichlid
could easily get to be a couple of pounds (or as large as a JD actually
gets - never kept them, so I don't know) and late summer or fall it got
hooked by an angler. That's all it would take to be on that list.

> Or maybe we're just being overcautious.

Probably - I don't really think there's anything wrong with that. It's just
that the rules as you stated them had way too many loopholes for Koi -
which are seriously invasive across the US (I think it was that same
document that said introduced carp exist in _every_ state) - yet make it
illegal to keep something that is not going to be invasive in your area.

> It's pretty well fleshed out now, and continues to grow. I was
> particularly disappointed to see that one of my favorites, Tan's Fish,
> the White Cloud Mountain Minnow has never made the list.

And shouldn't. Much as you might like them, they're temperate fish, not
tropicals. Much more likely to survive in Maine than Jack Dempseys.

> Hardy little fish.

Precisely :-)
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

Mister Gardener wrote:

> I watched the new King Kong last night. Now, you wanna talk about
> transplanting species far from their natural home . . . invasive
> doesn't come anywhere close to what happened in the movie.

LOL!
--
derek

[~ janj]

>~ janj wrote:
>
>> It never fails I go up to the Demo Pond and there is some new (and often
>> ugly) goldfish added... or worst, someone has fished out the koi we put in
>> there as small fry, grew up to a foot, and someone takes them. That was
>> quite irritating, I even wrote a letter to the editor on that, and a kind
>> soul donated $150 towards the pond after she read it.
>
>Kindness? Or a guilty conscience? Ah, well, it's healthier to think it was
>kindness. :-)

I have a hard time believing someone with $150 would go to the work of
catching 3-4 poor pond grade butterfly koi. When they could purchase that
many or more nicer ones at the local pond shops. ~ jan

--------------
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Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
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