fish gulping problem

[lenny]

Hi,
I have a 3 foot long tank with 8 small goldfish in 2 to 3 inches long. They
have been very happy for the past 2 years but are all on the bottom of the
tank now gulping. They have become very lathargic and just gulp. This has
been going on for about 3 days. I changed about 25 percent of the water
about a week ago and the filter stopped working for a couple of days so the
water wasn't being oxiginated. I have got it going again now and it has been
running for 24 hours but the fish haven't improved. I am getting worried
now. What could be the problem?
Thanks
Lenny

[lenny]

I have just noticed that they have a matt sheen instead of the usual shiny
scales too. This is all over them and a consistent look.

"lenny" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
> I have a 3 foot long tank with 8 small goldfish in 2 to 3 inches long.
> They have been very happy for the past 2 years but are all on the bottom
> of the tank now gulping. They have become very lathargic and just gulp.
> This has been going on for about 3 days. I changed about 25 percent of the
> water about a week ago and the filter stopped working for a couple of days
> so the water wasn't being oxiginated. I have got it going again now and it
> has been running for 24 hours but the fish haven't improved. I am getting
> worried now. What could be the problem?
> Thanks
> Lenny
>

[netDenizen]

lenny wrote:
> I have just noticed that they have a matt sheen instead of the usual shiny
> scales too. This is all over them and a consistent look.
>
> "lenny" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Hi,
>>I have a 3 foot long tank with 8 small goldfish in 2 to 3 inches long.
>>They have been very happy for the past 2 years but are all on the bottom
>>of the tank now gulping. They have become very lathargic and just gulp.
>>This has been going on for about 3 days. I changed about 25 percent of the
>>water about a week ago and the filter stopped working for a couple of days
>>so the water wasn't being oxiginated. I have got it going again now and it
>>has been running for 24 hours but the fish haven't improved. I am getting
>>worried now. What could be the problem?
>>Thanks
>>Lenny
>>
>
>
>

1. Your fish may be starting to outgrow your aquarium, especially if the
length you quote is the body length not counting fins.

2. It sounds like a water quality problem, at least in part. Start doing
those 25 percent water changes daily for a few days. Actually, try 40
percent daily for a few days. That will effectively change most of your
water. Please remember to use dechlorinator with your make-up water.

3. Clean the filter in a bucket of aquarium water. Keep the existing
media because you need the helpful bacteria they contain - to assist
water quality.

3. You'll get advice about adding salt or stronger medications. I don't
know enough about medications and don't trust them much. Improving the
water quality quickly should perhaps be higher/ equal priority to trying
to medicate. Salt is probably ok, providing you don't have plants.

[[email protected]]

the lack of clean water has stressed the fish. the filter should not be the primary
source of oxygenation. the stressed fish now have some kind of disease.
Check water parameters including ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, pH and temperature.
change water until the nitrates are less than 20 ppm and the rest are 0
Add 1 teaspoon of salt per 5 gallons. This can be increased to 3 teas. per 5 over a
few days. Use rock salt with no additives.
see if they perk up
they should shed their slime coat. if they are still matt, do a salt dip on the fish
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#SALT%20DIPS

"lenny" > wrote:

>I have just noticed that they have a matt sheen instead of the usual shiny
>scales too. This is all over them and a consistent look.
>
>"lenny" > wrote in message
...
>> Hi,
>> I have a 3 foot long tank with 8 small goldfish in 2 to 3 inches long.
>> They have been very happy for the past 2 years but are all on the bottom
>> of the tank now gulping. They have become very lathargic and just gulp.
>> This has been going on for about 3 days. I changed about 25 percent of the
>> water about a week ago and the filter stopped working for a couple of days
>> so the water wasn't being oxiginated. I have got it going again now and it
>> has been running for 24 hours but the fish haven't improved. I am getting
>> worried now. What could be the problem?
>> Thanks
>> Lenny
>>
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[lenny]

thanks for the advice. I have taken the fish out of the tank already because
they were not getting any better and I was afraid that tthey wouldn't
survive the night. I placed them into a bucket and a small tank and they are
still alive 20 hours later so that is a good start. I will change some of
the water now and treat with salt and see what happens.
Thanks again.
Lenny


> wrote in message
...
> the lack of clean water has stressed the fish. the filter should not be
> the primary
> source of oxygenation. the stressed fish now have some kind of disease.
> Check water parameters including ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, pH and
> temperature.
> change water until the nitrates are less than 20 ppm and the rest are 0
> Add 1 teaspoon of salt per 5 gallons. This can be increased to 3 teas. per
> 5 over a
> few days. Use rock salt with no additives.
> see if they perk up
> they should shed their slime coat. if they are still matt, do a salt dip
> on the fish
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#SALT%20DIPS
>
> "lenny" > wrote:
>
>>I have just noticed that they have a matt sheen instead of the usual shiny
>>scales too. This is all over them and a consistent look.
>>
>>"lenny" > wrote in message
...
>>> Hi,
>>> I have a 3 foot long tank with 8 small goldfish in 2 to 3 inches long.
>>> They have been very happy for the past 2 years but are all on the bottom
>>> of the tank now gulping. They have become very lathargic and just gulp.
>>> This has been going on for about 3 days. I changed about 25 percent of
>>> the
>>> water about a week ago and the filter stopped working for a couple of
>>> days
>>> so the water wasn't being oxiginated. I have got it going again now and
>>> it
>>> has been running for 24 hours but the fish haven't improved. I am
>>> getting
>>> worried now. What could be the problem?
>>> Thanks
>>> Lenny
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> sign up:
> http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold
> website.
> I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:01:19 +0100, "lenny"
> wrote:

>thanks for the advice. I have taken the fish out of the tank already because
>they were not getting any better and I was afraid that tthey wouldn't
>survive the night. I placed them into a bucket and a small tank and they are
>still alive 20 hours later so that is a good start. I will change some of
>the water now and treat with salt and see what happens.
>Thanks again.
>Lenny

Be very careful. If there is no or inadequate filtration in these
small quarantine containers Ammonia can jump quickly. My experience
is that injured/sick fish are very sensative to water quality. Water
needs to be pristine or at least as safe as possible to heal. Don't
do anything that is harsh or stressful while they are weak.

It certainly can't hurt to try the tub to tub treatment with some salt
& NovAqua. Use AmmolockII or Amquel for ammonia. You still have to
monitor Ammonia though. If the water is not fully aged carefully
match temperatures.

Good luck

[[email protected]]

exactly.
tub to tub
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#TUB_TO_TUB
be SURE to have good aeration.

there are times when a tank simply goes "toxic". dont know why but fish are wobbling
or dying and the best thing is move them out to fresh oxygenated tank or tub of water
and then clean the old tank out, strip it down completely and sponge a lot of
hydrogen peroxide around. then refill with fresh water.
CHANGE ALL THE WATER in tanks where fish have died. do 3 days of tub to tub before
putting them back. Ingrid

>On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:01:19 +0100, "lenny"
>>thanks for the advice. I have taken the fish out of the tank already because
>>they were not getting any better and I was afraid that tthey wouldn't
>>survive the night. I placed them into a bucket and a small tank and they are
>>still alive 20 hours later so that is a good start. I will change some of
>>the water now and treat with salt and see what happens.
>>Thanks again.
>>Lenny

Jolly Fisherman > wrote:
>Be very careful. If there is no or inadequate filtration in these
>small quarantine containers Ammonia can jump quickly. My experience
>is that injured/sick fish are very sensative to water quality. Water
>needs to be pristine or at least as safe as possible to heal. Don't
>do anything that is harsh or stressful while they are weak.
>
>It certainly can't hurt to try the tub to tub treatment with some salt
>& NovAqua. Use AmmolockII or Amquel for ammonia. You still have to
>monitor Ammonia though. If the water is not fully aged carefully
>match temperatures.
>
>Good luck



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Jolly Fisherman]

The only thing I want to add is that when fish are very sick and weak
and consequently crashing on the bottom, they can have difficulty with
the current generated by an airstone on the bottom of a small
container. One can create a weaker current by mounting the airstone
higher up on the wall of the container. The same thing can be
accomplished by bleeding off some of the air, but that also reduces
surface agitation. Basically one just has to adjust things based on
how it looks.

The environment has to be as stress free & pristine as possible to
heal. Currents in small containers can be stressful. I find
sometimes also reducing room light is calming.

Just another $0.02

[[email protected]]

right. better circulation and the fish rest comfortably right under a stone 1-2
inches up off the bottom of the tank.
now strong powerheads or filter flow can be a problem.
Ingrid

Jolly Fisherman > wrote:

>The only thing I want to add is that when fish are very sick and weak
>and consequently crashing on the bottom, they can have difficulty with
>the current generated by an airstone on the bottom of a small
>container. One can create a weaker current by mounting the airstone
>higher up on the wall of the container. The same thing can be
>accomplished by bleeding off some of the air, but that also reduces
>surface agitation. Basically one just has to adjust things based on
>how it looks.
>
>The environment has to be as stress free & pristine as possible to
>heal. Currents in small containers can be stressful. I find
>sometimes also reducing room light is calming.
>
>Just another $0.02



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[lenny]

As mentioned before, I put the fish into a serperate tub and I have now
cleaned the tank completly, all the water and washed the stones. I tiped it
onto its side outside and gave it a good hose down. I refilled the tank and
left it 24 hours to settle. Placed the fish back into the tank (they were
still not looking too good) and within 5 or 6 hours they have all stopped
gulping air fron the top of the water and are starting to look better with a
bit of rumaging along the bottom. I gave them a feed after 24 hours and as
far as I can see most of them ate so that is a good sign.

There is only one fish worrying me at the moment. He was the one who looked
in the worst state before spending most of the day gulping on the top. That
fish still looks a little bit lathargic and the colour is a little dull but
he isn't gulping on the top or sitting on the bottom so I will give it a
couple of days and see what happens I think. Possibly the salt dip will
help.

Thanks for all the fantastic help given on this forum! Because of it 8 fish
are still alive.

Cheers
Lenny


> wrote in message
...
> right. better circulation and the fish rest comfortably right under a
> stone 1-2
> inches up off the bottom of the tank.
> now strong powerheads or filter flow can be a problem.
> Ingrid
>
> Jolly Fisherman > wrote:
>
>>The only thing I want to add is that when fish are very sick and weak
>>and consequently crashing on the bottom, they can have difficulty with
>>the current generated by an airstone on the bottom of a small
>>container. One can create a weaker current by mounting the airstone
>>higher up on the wall of the container. The same thing can be
>>accomplished by bleeding off some of the air, but that also reduces
>>surface agitation. Basically one just has to adjust things based on
>>how it looks.
>>
>>The environment has to be as stress free & pristine as possible to
>>heal. Currents in small containers can be stressful. I find
>>sometimes also reducing room light is calming.
>>
>>Just another $0.02
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> sign up:
> http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold
> website.
> I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[[email protected]]

great to hear success stories. The Goldfish Guru taught me a long time ago "when the
fish are looking bad start changing the water and if the water parameters are
pristine believe the fish. Move them to fresh water immediately. Even she could not
always figure out what was going on, but she DID save her expensive fish (she was a
seller of fish in the 100-1000 bucks per range).
and you are correct, when fish stop eating they are seriously in trouble. Ingrid

"lenny" > wrote:

>As mentioned before, I put the fish into a serperate tub and I have now
>cleaned the tank completly, all the water and washed the stones. I tiped it
>onto its side outside and gave it a good hose down. I refilled the tank and
>left it 24 hours to settle. Placed the fish back into the tank (they were
>still not looking too good) and within 5 or 6 hours they have all stopped
>gulping air fron the top of the water and are starting to look better with a
>bit of rumaging along the bottom. I gave them a feed after 24 hours and as
>far as I can see most of them ate so that is a good sign.
>
>There is only one fish worrying me at the moment. He was the one who looked
>in the worst state before spending most of the day gulping on the top. That
>fish still looks a little bit lathargic and the colour is a little dull but
>he isn't gulping on the top or sitting on the bottom so I will give it a
>couple of days and see what happens I think. Possibly the salt dip will
>help.
>
>Thanks for all the fantastic help given on this forum! Because of it 8 fish
>are still alive.
>
>Cheers
>Lenny
>
>
> wrote in message
...
>> right. better circulation and the fish rest comfortably right under a
>> stone 1-2
>> inches up off the bottom of the tank.
>> now strong powerheads or filter flow can be a problem.
>> Ingrid
>>
>> Jolly Fisherman > wrote:
>>
>>>The only thing I want to add is that when fish are very sick and weak
>>>and consequently crashing on the bottom, they can have difficulty with
>>>the current generated by an airstone on the bottom of a small
>>>container. One can create a weaker current by mounting the airstone
>>>higher up on the wall of the container. The same thing can be
>>>accomplished by bleeding off some of the air, but that also reduces
>>>surface agitation. Basically one just has to adjust things based on
>>>how it looks.
>>>
>>>The environment has to be as stress free & pristine as possible to
>>>heal. Currents in small containers can be stressful. I find
>>>sometimes also reducing room light is calming.
>>>
>>>Just another $0.02
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
>> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
>> sign up:
>> http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
>> www.drsolo.com
>> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold
>> website.
>> I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:16:18 GMT, wrote:

>right. better circulation and the fish rest comfortably right under a stone 1-2
>inches up off the bottom of the tank.
>now strong powerheads or filter flow can be a problem.
>Ingrid

I think it all depends. If the tank or temporary container is narrow
& tall (like a 5 gal bucket for example) & the fish is in really bad
shape you may want the stone 1-2 inches from the top. 1-2 inches from
the bottom would seriously stress it. If the fish is stronger or the
container is longer, larger, and shorter I think the placement matters
much less.

If the temporary container has no filtration I would try to slow
circulation somewhat esp if it has free floating bacterial or fine
fragmenting constipated poop. That's a nasty soup. But in that case,
actually I think moving to more tubs per day & diet is most important.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 18:13:48 +0100, "lenny"
> wrote:

>As mentioned before, I put the fish into a serperate tub and I have now
>cleaned the tank completly, all the water and washed the stones. I tiped it
>onto its side outside and gave it a good hose down. I refilled the tank and
>left it 24 hours to settle. Placed the fish back into the tank (they were
>still not looking too good) and within 5 or 6 hours they have all stopped
>gulping air fron the top of the water and are starting to look better with a
>bit of rumaging along the bottom. I gave them a feed after 24 hours and as
>far as I can see most of them ate so that is a good sign.

Great. Now you need to either reestablish the biological filter or
continue with a tub to tub treatment. I'd go by how strong they look
& get some BioSpira for when they're ready to end the treatment. Until
everything is reestablished they need at least ammonia protection.

>There is only one fish worrying me at the moment. He was the one who looked
>in the worst state before spending most of the day gulping on the top. That
>fish still looks a little bit lathargic and the colour is a little dull but
>he isn't gulping on the top or sitting on the bottom so I will give it a
>couple of days and see what happens I think. Possibly the salt dip will
>help.

There's a point when a fish is too small or too weak to endure the
stress of a salt dip. While I'm not the expert to advise you
specifically, IMHO I wouldn't do it casually on a weakened undiagnosed
fish. Others may disagree with me. Ultimately it's your call.

>Thanks for all the fantastic help given on this forum! Because of it 8 fish
>are still alive.

It's a good yet small forum. I've been helped a lot here also.