Alkalinity situation.

[reefer]

I'm a beginner. I'm using a fasTest brand Alkalinity test. When I test my
tank water I can't get the sample to change color, no matter how much
reagent I add. I tested my tap water and got a result. Clearly I'm off the
scale in one direction or the other. Can anyone tell me how to figure this
out. My calcium is really high 640 and my ph is 8.8. I appear to have an
issue, not sure where to start.

All life in my tank is happy, 2 damsels, 2 mollies (daughters experiment)
and a coral beauty. Tank is 8 weeks old. Nothing seems stressed. Coralline
algae growth seems pretty slow, but it is growing.

Thanks,
-Brad

[miskairal]

My tank calcium is up around there too and the tank is crystal clear. My
R/O water tests 0 but once I add the Coralife salt it's up to 600+. My
alk is 5.

I would think that the alk is VERY low for there to be no colour change
when there is a colour change with the tap water???

Boomer wrote:
> Re-read your instructions. With levels like you posted your tank should be all cloudy.
> What have you added to the water to get it that high, if it is that high, which I doubt.
> Did you put any home made rock in there? Go to the fish store and test their water. Whatr
> kind of salt are you using. Test a fresh batch, like a gallon or two. FasTest kits are
> very good kits but their Alk kit is poor.

[Boomer]

He would not have a color change in FW which has very little alk and what appears to be 0
alk in seawater, which has a much higher Alk. Something is WRONG. It may be his reading
the instructions incorrect or he is beyond the capability of the kit to bring it to end
point. This kit has two ranges on it, one for high and one for low Alk.

600 mg / l Ca++ and an Ak of 5 meq / l is like asking for trouble. All one needs is the
right pH shift or temp change and you may end up with a snow storm. Your Ca++ and Alk are
also not balanced. Are you sure you are measuring right and have a good kit. I have never
heard of Coralife being anywhere near + 600 mg / l.but just over 500 mg / l Ca++. It
usually runs in the 400's. Whose kits are you using ?

Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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"miskairal" > wrote in message
u...
: My tank calcium is up around there too and the tank is crystal clear. My
: R/O water tests 0 but once I add the Coralife salt it's up to 600+. My
: alk is 5.
:
: I would think that the alk is VERY low for there to be no colour change
: when there is a colour change with the tap water???
:
: Boomer wrote:
: > Re-read your instructions. With levels like you posted your tank should be all cloudy.
: > What have you added to the water to get it that high, if it is that high, which I
doubt.
: > Did you put any home made rock in there? Go to the fish store and test their water.
Whatr
: > kind of salt are you using. Test a fresh batch, like a gallon or two. FasTest kits
are
: > very good kits but their Alk kit is poor.

[miskairal]

I retested today. Everything. Ca is still at 600 and Alk still 5, pH
8.3, Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates and Phosphates are 0, SG 1.024. (Ca
tests are ppm and KH is dKH) Wouldn't you think that if the tank water
measures the same as the made up coralife mix (before it goes into the
tank) then they are the same? I sent a sample to a petshop back in
January (nearest is 2 1/2 hours drive away and a friend was heading in
that direction) and they got the same reading but I don't know what sort
of test kit was used. I use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.

Since then I have bought a complete 4 foot setup which has always run on
NSW and brought NSW home with it. That tank tests at 440 (KH 4) and the
NSW tests at 420 (KH 6). R/O water still tests at 0 for Ca and <1 for
KH. I don't add anything to the tank, Zilch, nothing. I've bought two
other types of salt and they test better for Ca (400-450 from memory)
BUT both have phosphates and I don't need that. The coralife tests 0 for
phosphates.

I do however have some product sold to me by a petshop that is supposed
to increase alk without affecting Ca. Can't remember the name of it
offhand but I think it is a Seachem product. I will start adding it
tomorrow with the top up water but I'm nervous about that too.

ok, I just went and got the bottle. It's called Reef Builder, Raises
Carbonate Alkalinity. It says on the bottle
"used as directed Reef Builder will not deplete Calcium, magnesium or
strontium which usually tend to precipitate with increasing alkalinity"
What does this statement mean? Will I end up with snow?

Thanks for the link but I've been there before and was put off by the
mention of Canada having washing soda containing surfactants. Not sure
what we have in Oz but decided to wait and get something that should be
reef safe, hence the reef builder.

Boomer wrote:
> He would not have a color change in FW which has very little alk and what appears to be 0
> alk in seawater, which has a much higher Alk. Something is WRONG. It may be his reading
> the instructions incorrect or he is beyond the capability of the kit to bring it to end
> point. This kit has two ranges on it, one for high and one for low Alk.
>
> 600 mg / l Ca++ and an Ak of 5 meq / l is like asking for trouble. All one needs is the
> right pH shift or temp change and you may end up with a snow storm. Your Ca++ and Alk are
> also not balanced. Are you sure you are measuring right and have a good kit. I have never
> heard of Coralife being anywhere near + 600 mg / l.but just over 500 mg / l Ca++. It
> usually runs in the 400's. Whose kits are you using ?
>
> Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
>

[Boomer]

Mis

I answer more to your post when I get home. In sort then, +600 mg / l Ca = a bad batch
of salt form Coral Life

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com



"miskairal" > wrote in message
u...
:I retested today. Everything. Ca is still at 600 and Alk still 5, pH
: 8.3, Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates and Phosphates are 0, SG 1.024. (Ca
: tests are ppm and KH is dKH) Wouldn't you think that if the tank water
: measures the same as the made up coralife mix (before it goes into the
: tank) then they are the same? I sent a sample to a petshop back in
: January (nearest is 2 1/2 hours drive away and a friend was heading in
: that direction) and they got the same reading but I don't know what sort
: of test kit was used. I use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.
:
: Since then I have bought a complete 4 foot setup which has always run on
: NSW and brought NSW home with it. That tank tests at 440 (KH 4) and the
: NSW tests at 420 (KH 6). R/O water still tests at 0 for Ca and <1 for
: KH. I don't add anything to the tank, Zilch, nothing. I've bought two
: other types of salt and they test better for Ca (400-450 from memory)
: BUT both have phosphates and I don't need that. The coralife tests 0 for
: phosphates.
:
: I do however have some product sold to me by a petshop that is supposed
: to increase alk without affecting Ca. Can't remember the name of it
: offhand but I think it is a Seachem product. I will start adding it
: tomorrow with the top up water but I'm nervous about that too.
:
: ok, I just went and got the bottle. It's called Reef Builder, Raises
: Carbonate Alkalinity. It says on the bottle
: "used as directed Reef Builder will not deplete Calcium, magnesium or
: strontium which usually tend to precipitate with increasing alkalinity"
: What does this statement mean? Will I end up with snow?
:
: Thanks for the link but I've been there before and was put off by the
: mention of Canada having washing soda containing surfactants. Not sure
: what we have in Oz but decided to wait and get something that should be
: reef safe, hence the reef builder.
:
: Boomer wrote:
: > He would not have a color change in FW which has very little alk and what appears to
be 0
: > alk in seawater, which has a much higher Alk. Something is WRONG. It may be his
reading
: > the instructions incorrect or he is beyond the capability of the kit to bring it to
end
: > point. This kit has two ranges on it, one for high and one for low Alk.
: >
: > 600 mg / l Ca++ and an Ak of 5 meq / l is like asking for trouble. All one needs is
the
: > right pH shift or temp change and you may end up with a snow storm. Your Ca++ and Alk
are
: > also not balanced. Are you sure you are measuring right and have a good kit. I have
never
: > heard of Coralife being anywhere near + 600 mg / l.but just over 500 mg / l Ca++. It
: > usually runs in the 400's. Whose kits are you using ?
: >
: > Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
: > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
: >

[Boomer]

Ok, so you have checked NSW and your Coral Life with the same test kit and baaed on that
it is a bad batch of salt as I stated. Coral Life does not advertise that or would. and
testing does not show any levels anywhere near that. Last year IO had a bad batch, where
many people were reporting Alk right through roof.

"ok, I just went and got the bottle. It's called Reef Builder, Raises
Carbonate Alkalinity. It says on the bottle
"used as directed Reef Builder will not deplete Calcium, magnesium or
strontium which usually tend to precipitate with increasing alkalinity"
What does this statement mean? Will I end up with snow?"


Quite often when some buffers are used it turns the water cloudy, this is Canada Mg
leaving solution. That does not mean it always turns cloudy. An old trick for lowering the
Ca is to increase the Alk, when it is low and usually no snow storm. A "storm" really
won't hurt anything but under the right conditions it can coat the glass where you would
have to tear down the tank to get it off.

You have now clarified your Alk, as KH and not meq /l. So, a dKH of 5 is rather low = 1.8
meq / l and should be more around 7- 10 dKH. In your case I whould not use this SeaChem
buffer but baking soda, which will help bring down that Ca by slowly raising it to 7 dKH
and then re-testing for Ca.


"Canada having washing soda containing surfactants. Not sure
what we have in Oz but decided to wait and get something that should be
reef safe, hence the reef builder."

Canada is not the only one the USA has it also. Arm & Hammer dose make a pure washing soda
with no surfactants or perfumes You really do not need to buy washing soda, you can get a
better grade by taking baking soda and spreading it out on a cookie sheet and baking it.
This will drive of most of the CO2 and convert the baking soda to food grade washing soda,
which is even better. One needs to be careful with washing soda when used by itself, it is
very powerful and can really raise the pH and Alk if you do not know what you are doing.
Roughly speaking washing soda is twice as powerful as baking soda.

You really need to get rid of that bag of Coral Life.
--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com

[Boomer]

"I cannot just throw away the coralife salt as it goes against
everything I was brought up to do but I will keep it for emergency use ;)"

Yes, like when doing water changes and the Ca is down a little, this would sup it up with
no need to use other Ca sups.

Your Ca will come down on its own in time if you want to just leave it as is. Nothing is
going to die Try not to let the pH get any higher than 8.3 and try not to let the water
temp drop to low. You also do not want any warm/cool water mixing. All until the Ca is
with reason. 400- 450

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com



"miskairal" > wrote in message
...
: Thankyou Boomer for your help and sorry I had not stated the KH properly
: earlier.
:
: I have finally had some good feedback at an Australian forum on this
: subject today. It seems that many Aussies use NSW I suppose because most
: live near the ocean. I have been told of some good locations nearest to
: here to get some and intend doing so once I get pumps and drums
: organized to do it. In the meantime I will use the baking soda as you
: recommend. I cannot just throw away the coralife salt as it goes against
: everything I was brought up to do but I will keep it for emergency use ;)
:
: Boomer wrote:
: > Ok, so you have checked NSW and your Coral Life with the same test kit and baaed on
that
: > it is a bad batch of salt as I stated. Coral Life does not advertise that or would.
and
: > testing does not show any levels anywhere near that. Last year IO had a bad batch,
where
: > many people were reporting Alk right through roof.
: >
: > "ok, I just went and got the bottle. It's called Reef Builder, Raises
: > Carbonate Alkalinity. It says on the bottle
: > "used as directed Reef Builder will not deplete Calcium, magnesium or
: > strontium which usually tend to precipitate with increasing alkalinity"
: > What does this statement mean? Will I end up with snow?"
: >
: >
: > Quite often when some buffers are used it turns the water cloudy, this is Canada Mg
: > leaving solution. That does not mean it always turns cloudy. An old trick for lowering
the
: > Ca is to increase the Alk, when it is low and usually no snow storm. A "storm" really
: > won't hurt anything but under the right conditions it can coat the glass where you
would
: > have to tear down the tank to get it off.
: >
: > You have now clarified your Alk, as KH and not meq /l. So, a dKH of 5 is rather low =
1.8
: > meq / l and should be more around 7- 10 dKH. In your case I whould not use this
SeaChem
: > buffer but baking soda, which will help bring down that Ca by slowly raising it to 7
dKH
: > and then re-testing for Ca.
: >
: >
: > "Canada having washing soda containing surfactants. Not sure
: > what we have in Oz but decided to wait and get something that should be
: > reef safe, hence the reef builder."
: >
: > Canada is not the only one the USA has it also. Arm & Hammer dose make a pure washing
soda
: > with no surfactants or perfumes You really do not need to buy washing soda, you can
get a
: > better grade by taking baking soda and spreading it out on a cookie sheet and baking
it.
: > This will drive of most of the CO2 and convert the baking soda to food grade washing
soda,
: > which is even better. One needs to be careful with washing soda when used by itself,
it is
: > very powerful and can really raise the pH and Alk if you do not know what you are
doing.
: > Roughly speaking washing soda is twice as powerful as baking soda.
: >
: > You really need to get rid of that bag of Coral Life.

[miskairal]

Ok, thanks!


Boomer wrote:
> "I cannot just throw away the coralife salt as it goes against
> everything I was brought up to do but I will keep it for emergency use ;)"
>
> Yes, like when doing water changes and the Ca is down a little, this would sup it up with
> no need to use other Ca sups.
>
> Your Ca will come down on its own in time if you want to just leave it as is. Nothing is
> going to die Try not to let the pH get any higher than 8.3 and try not to let the water
> temp drop to low. You also do not want any warm/cool water mixing. All until the Ca is
> with reason. 400- 450
>