Rose anenome splitting [Archive] - FishKeepingBanter.com

Boomer

April 2nd 06, 08:11 AM

Corals , and mushrooms are not anemones. Colonial anemones are a another issue. You can
try to argue any rime or reason you want an aquarium is a stressful environment for most
of the large anemones particular the carpets, of which a Rose is. It is my fault to have
not be more clear and I should have not said anemones but carpet anemones, which are
almost all sexual. As Sanberg pointed out water chemistry and feeding, to include light
cycling, light type, high nutrient levels, all much different than on a coral reef. These
are always changing in a reef tank, which is a stress but where BTA's seem to better than
most.

Who said they keep growing large and larger with no limit. Most animals all have a limit,
that by no means requires a need for a carpet to split. Some carpets have been monitored
for almost 100 years. People seem to think that if it splits that means it is happy. The
only ones that has a mind set are those that seem to have to believe it must be happy.
Just like those with the mind set that anemone fish feed anemones. To often people like to
input anthropomorphic thoughts into animal behavior. Can BTA's go through longitudinal
fission in the wild, yes, but is very rare in nature as opposed to captive care, where it
is the main stay. Longitudinal fission is almost exclusive to captive systems in carpets.
BTA's do not need much food and most of its daily requirements are similar to corals due
to zoo's. As I said cloning { LF) is absent or very rare in host sea anemones par the
BTA in captivity, where it seems to point to stress.

Some info form the Breeder's Registry

"4. Species Specific Information

Entacmaea quadricolor. This species really did emerge as the star performer. Not only was
it much more likely to live a long life in an aquarium than any other species, but it was
also reported as reproducing readily.

E. quadricolor appears adaptable to a range of conditions, doing well under very high
lighting, but able to live under tube only lighting also in some set-ups. It can also live
with low, medium or high current, but would appear to favour medium or high. Reproduction
was often in response to a stress event, often reported in newly purchased specimens
recovering from the rigours of being shipped. It may be that the anemone having survived
what to it was a cataclysmic event, reproduces, to ensure survival of the species.

A drawback with this species is that it was often reported as a wanderer, prone to doing
damage to both its surroundings and itself as it moves around the aquarium. However, it
was also reported as staying in the same place for several years once it found a really
good spot. One example of this was a respondent who said his E. quadricolor liked a spot
where it was attached to the underside of an overhanging rock, but reaching out into the
tank in a position of high light and strong current. Knowing his anemone's preference for
this type of location, when it had to be moved to a new tank, the owner deliberately
created a similar type location in the new tank, and the anemone moved around the tank
until it found it, and then stayed put.

This anemone was referred to by a number of owners as hardy, and it appears that it is,
given a liveable environment. Although it is hardy by anemone standards, it must be
remembered that it still requires a good high quality environment.

If you combine all the above with the fact that this is an attractive anemone that has
also been reported as hosting a wide range of clownfish species, it really should be the
anemone of choice for most aquarists. Looked after properly it will reward its owner by
maintaining good health and possibly producing clones, and will also assist conservation
by reducing the removal of other species from reefs, which will likely die after a year or
two in an aquarium."

In this hobby one can make an arguement on about anything or demand data, that does not
make them correct. Ome could argue it is splitting because it has no or the wrong host
fish.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
: As corals grow, they split, so do mushrooms. Yes stress
: can cause reproductive behavior in a lot of creatures, but
: just because stress can cause reproductive behavior in
: creatures does not mean that if a creature is reproducing,
: it's because it is stressed.
:
: So what has been done to prove that anemones don't split
: unless it is stressed?
:
: Anemones don't keep growing larger and larger without some
: limit. You could argue that it gets so big that it's
: stressful for it to get enough food, so then it splits.
: You could argue that an anemone that grows to big for it's
: spot, split's because it's too stressfull for it to fit
: into the tight spot. But this kind of splitting should be
: considered normal, not a negative thing. And what about
: colonial anemones???
:
: I just don't buy into this mindset. I'd like to see some data.
:
:
: Wayne Sallee
: Wayne's Pets
:
:
:
: Boomer wrote on 4/1/2006 1:51 PM:
: > "Feeding
: > habits can cause the split as well. Water changes and major changes in
: > chemistry can cause them to split"
: >
: > All stress related ;-)
: >

Boomer

April 2nd 06, 08:15 AM

A year for a carpet is a very short time. Some can last a year in terrible conditions,
such as my ritteri. Usually I judge the success of a carpet after it has been in a system
for 3 years

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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"TW" > wrote in message
.. .
: My tank is more than 8 or 9 years old. It is pretty rock solid as far as
: stability goes. I have a good skimmer and a good reactor going I
: barely touch it other than feeding. I don't think "stress" is a viable
: answer. To me it seems more likely to be happy normal reproduction.
: The anenome is always fully inflated and visually it looks pretty happy
: where it is. The tenticles are sometimes straight and sometimes extra
: inflated with a ball shape at the ends.
: The reason for my post was I was so surprised that it split twice in
: such a short span of time. I have had it in my tank for close to a year
: so far and all of a sudden wham!
:
: Todd
:

April 2nd 06, 02:55 PM

Boomer wrote:
> A year for a carpet is a very short time. Some can last a year in terrible conditions,
> such as my ritteri. Usually I judge the success of a carpet after it has been in a system
> for 3 years
>
Granted a year is a short time in a system. I have a pink tip and a
purple carpet that I have had since I first set up my system. 8-9 years
ago. The carpet has been host to a pair of perculas for the past 4
years. I often wonder how long they will last. They seem to just keep
on ticking year after year. Many corals have come and gone over the
years but those two are original and seem happy. I feed them directly
about once once a month or so otherwise they just feed out of the water
column.

Todd

Captain Feedback

April 2nd 06, 04:02 PM

Boomer wrote:
>Another
> myth, anemone fish do not feed anemones.

My maroon clownfish constantly brings food to my rose anemones. Maybe
he's not intentionally feeding them, but that's the overall effect. ;-)

Pszemol

April 2nd 06, 05:03 PM

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> Corals , and mushrooms are not anemones. Colonial anemones are a another issue. You can
> try to argue any rime or reason you want an aquarium is a stressful environment for most
> of the large anemones particular the carpets, of which a Rose is. It is my fault to have
> not be more clear and I should have not said anemones but carpet anemones, which are
> almost all sexual. As Sanberg pointed out water chemistry and feeding, to include light
> cycling, light type, high nutrient levels, all much different than on a coral reef. These
> are always changing in a reef tank, which is a stress but where BTA's seem to better than
> most.

I was sure we are talking about the rose variation of a BTA.

> Just like those with the mind set that anemone fish feed anemones.
> To often people like to input anthropomorphic thoughts into animal behavior.

What clownfish are doing when they bring food to the anemone ?
It is not feeding, how do you interprete this behaviour then ?
I saw it many, many times in my reef tank with pair of maroon clowns and a large BTA.

Pszemol

April 2nd 06, 05:04 PM

"Captain Feedback" > wrote in message oups.com...
>>Another myth, anemone fish do not feed anemones.
>
> My maroon clownfish constantly brings food to my rose anemones.
> Maybe he's not intentionally feeding them, but that's the overall effect. ;-)

Same here: maroon pair and a large BTA.

Don Geddis

April 2nd 06, 07:08 PM

"Boomer" > wrote on Sun, 2 Apr 2006 :
> an aquarium is a stressful environment for most of the large anemones
> particular the carpets, of which a Rose is. It is my fault to have not be
> more clear and I should have not said anemones but carpet anemones, which
> are almost all sexual.

The rose anemone most people mean is a red color morph of a bubble-tip anemone,
aka Entacmaea quadricolor. That is not a carpet anemone, i.e. one of the ones
that is a large flat dinner plate in shape with short stubbly tentacles, and
usually buries its foot in sand (instead of adhering to rock). For example,
Stichodactyla sp., e.g. S. gigantea or S. haddoni.

> Some info form the Breeder's Registry
> "4. Species Specific Information
> Entacmaea quadricolor.

Yeah, that's a rose anemone ... but not a carpet.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Blame: The secret to success is knowing who to blame for your failures.
-- Despair.com

April 2nd 06, 10:14 PM

I guess my understanding of these organisims is a bit naive. I assume
that when it is fully inflated and stationary that it is happy. This
may not be the case as you have explained. However, if that is the case
I think we can say the same thing for every SW aquarium animal. I'm
sure the would all be happier in the ocean but that would not make this
hobby viable would it? Thanks for the info. I appreciate it and your
help from the past. I believe it was your website that gave me alot of
info when I first got into this hobby.

Cheers
Todd

Pszemol

April 3rd 06, 01:31 AM

"TW" > wrote in message ...
> I guess my understanding of these organisims is a bit naive. I assume
> that when it is fully inflated and stationary that it is happy. This
> may not be the case as you have explained. However, if that is the case
> I think we can say the same thing for every SW aquarium animal. I'm
> sure the would all be happier in the ocean but that would not make this
> hobby viable would it? Thanks for the info. I appreciate it and your
> help from the past. I believe it was your website that gave me alot of
> info when I first got into this hobby.

Could you sort things up with the type of your anemone, please?
Were you talking about a carpet type anemone, like Boomer
interpreted, or were you talking about rose variation of BTA ?

April 3rd 06, 04:27 AM

Pszemol wrote:

> "TW" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I guess my understanding of these organisims is a bit naive. I assume
>> that when it is fully inflated and stationary that it is happy. This
>> may not be the case as you have explained. However, if that is the
>> case I think we can say the same thing for every SW aquarium animal.
>> I'm sure the would all be happier in the ocean but that would not make
>> this hobby viable would it? Thanks for the info. I appreciate it and
>> your help from the past. I believe it was your website that gave me
>> alot of info when I first got into this hobby.
>
>
> Could you sort things up with the type of your anemone, please?
> Were you talking about a carpet type anemone, like Boomer
> interpreted, or were you talking about rose variation of BTA ?
I was told it was a rose anenome. It is salmon pink on the tenticles,
The tips are purplish , the mouth is lime green. On some days the
tenticles expand to have bulbus ends like a ball.

like this: http://www.berlinmethod.com/images/photos/anenome.jpg
or this: http://www.oc-creative.com/7gal/475rose1.jpg

Both images show what I have.

Todd

Boomer

April 3rd 06, 05:56 AM

Sorry but Roses are carpets, there are long tentacle carpets and short tentacle carpets.
The longs include, Entacmeae and Heteractis for example

I'm quite familiar that a rose is color variant of a Entacmaea quadricolor
--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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"Don Geddis" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote on Sun, 2 Apr 2006 :
: > an aquarium is a stressful environment for most of the large anemones
: > particular the carpets, of which a Rose is. It is my fault to have not be
: > more clear and I should have not said anemones but carpet anemones, which
: > are almost all sexual.
:
: The rose anemone most people mean is a red color morph of a bubble-tip anemone,
: aka Entacmaea quadricolor. That is not a carpet anemone, i.e. one of the ones
: that is a large flat dinner plate in shape with short stubbly tentacles, and
: usually buries its foot in sand (instead of adhering to rock). For example,
: Stichodactyla sp., e.g. S. gigantea or S. haddoni.
:
: > Some info form the Breeder's Registry
: > "4. Species Specific Information
: > Entacmaea quadricolor.
:
: Yeah, that's a rose anemone ... but not a carpet.
:
: -- Don
: __________________________________________________ _____________________________
: Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
: Blame: The secret to success is knowing who to blame for your failures.
: -- Despair.com

Boomer

April 3rd 06, 06:00 AM

Cap

I will not argue with that, as that is often the end product. See post to PZ and TW

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
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http://www.coralrealm.com

"Captain Feedback" > wrote in message
oups.com...
:
: Boomer wrote:
: >Another
: > myth, anemone fish do not feed anemones.
:
: My maroon clownfish constantly brings food to my rose anemones. Maybe
: he's not intentionally feeding them, but that's the overall effect. ;-)
:

Boomer

April 3rd 06, 06:49 AM

Pz and TW

"What clownfish are doing when they bring food to the anemone ?
It is not feeding, how do you interprete this behaviour then ?
I saw it many, many times in my reef tank with pair of maroon clowns and a large BTA"

Do not take this wrong but when dealing with animal behavior you need to look outside the
box and try to keep out human behavior and or anthropomorphic thought. Ask yourself the
question what else COULD it be doing

1. Taking food to its "lair" for safe keeping , to eat later, only to be often eaten by
the anemone
2. To remove the food from the nearby water column to avoid the potential of predators.
3. To remove the food so other fish do not get it. Survival of it species, by to reducing
the survival of another competing species. This is quite common in fish.

Most of you may not have keep clown and anemones for years, by different means, i.e., a
host anemone and no host anemone at all.. Many clowns in tanks will seek out some kind of
"host", which may not be an anemone at all.

Some of the "Hosts" that have appeared in this hobby for clowns are:.

1. Anemones

2. Algae

3. Plastic plants ( some guys use green grassy looking plastic plants to get clowns to
spawn in them, no anemone)

4. Certain types of rocks/formations

5. Dead bleached coral

6. Behind lift tubes

7. Dead bleach giant barnacles

8.. And the real ass kicker, LIVE, large feather duster worms. Especially in a least 3
cases, that I know of, in the last few years. With that clown being a Maroon. And there
are pic's to prove it, to include in a well know magazine FAMA. How the hell it gets the
duster to stay open is beyond me but must may be similar in the way it works with
anemones. That means being chemical, where the anemone or duster sees the clown as part of
itself chemically.

In all cases the clown often gives the same behavior," feeding its "host". In short, many
clowns would appear stupid then........trying to feed a lift tube or a rock :-)

It is not a mutualistic relationship between clowns and anemones, it is a commensal
relationship where only one benefits, that being the clown. The anemone may benefit by
accident or chance but that is not mutualisium. Anemones actually do better without clowns
than with clowns for a couple of reasons.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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http://www.coralrealm.com

"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message ...
: > Corals , and mushrooms are not anemones. Colonial anemones are a another issue. You
can
: > try to argue any rime or reason you want an aquarium is a stressful environment for
most
: > of the large anemones particular the carpets, of which a Rose is. It is my fault to
have
: > not be more clear and I should have not said anemones but carpet anemones, which are
: > almost all sexual. As Sanberg pointed out water chemistry and feeding, to include
light
: > cycling, light type, high nutrient levels, all much different than on a coral reef.
These
: > are always changing in a reef tank, which is a stress but where BTA's seem to better
than
: > most.
:
: I was sure we are talking about the rose variation of a BTA.
:
: > Just like those with the mind set that anemone fish feed anemones.
: > To often people like to input anthropomorphic thoughts into animal behavior.
:
: What clownfish are doing when they bring food to the anemone ?
: It is not feeding, how do you interprete this behaviour then ?
: I saw it many, many times in my reef tank with pair of maroon clowns and a large BTA.

Pszemol

April 3rd 06, 01:34 PM

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> Do not take this wrong but when dealing with animal behavior you need to look outside the
> box and try to keep out human behavior and or anthropomorphic thought. Ask yourself the
> question what else COULD it be doing
>
> 1. Taking food to its "lair" for safe keeping , to eat later, only to be often eaten by
> the anemone
> 2. To remove the food from the nearby water column to avoid the potential of predators.
> 3. To remove the food so other fish do not get it. Survival of it species, by to reducing
> the survival of another competing species. This is quite common in fish.

The effect of their actions in all 3 case studies will be "feeding their host".
consciously or subconsciously, they do. So I am not understanding what are you talking about.
Result is clear and simple: anemone is fed by its resident clowns.

> In all cases the clown often gives the same behavior," feeding its "host". In short,
> many clowns would appear stupid then........trying to feed a lift tube or a rock :-)

It does not matter for me, what clown "thinks" bringing the food to the anemone.
Or if it "thinks" at all... The fact is that it is feeding my anemone and by
feeding I understand a simple act of puting food for the anemone to eat...
Yes, fish is not very inteligent, fish did not study biology to recognize
what an anemone is, so in the aquarium it might asume something else for its
home and continue feeding it, like it would do in nature... Clownfish will not
be normally found anywhere else than in the anemone host. So comparing his
behaviour in not-natural environment is quite incorrect.

Also, what I have read, the feeding behaviour was NOT observed in nature,
only in aquaria.

> It is not a mutualistic relationship between clowns and anemones, it is a commensal
> relationship where only one benefits, that being the clown. The anemone may benefit by
> accident or chance but that is not mutualisium. Anemones actually do better without
> clowns than with clowns for a couple of reasons.

What are these reasons ?
I was told clownfish can defend anemone from some predatory fish...

Don Geddis

April 3rd 06, 05:44 PM

"Boomer" > wrote on Mon, 3 Apr 2006 :
> Anemones actually do better without clowns than with clowns for a couple of
> reasons.

Are you talking about in the wild, or in aquaria?

I'm aware, in aquaria, that sometimes people put one (or more) large clowns
together with a new small anemone, and the anemone occasionally gets stressed
from all the rubbing. If the anemone isn't sufficiently larger than the clown
family, then you're probably right and the anemone would do better without any
clowns.

But in the wild? I believe the studies have shown that if you remove all
clownfish from an area of the ocean, then in a short time all the (hosting)
anemones will also disappear, preyed on by various predators.

It's my understanding that it's pretty well established that the clownfish
provide at least some degree of defense for their anemones. Do you disagree
with this?

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Whenever I see a rainbow, at first it makes me happy. But then I wonder if, on
other planets, they have better ones. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

Don Geddis

April 3rd 06, 05:49 PM

"Boomer" > wrote on Sun, 2 Apr 2006 :
> Sorry but Roses are carpets, there are long tentacle carpets and short
> tentacle carpets. The longs include, Entacmeae and Heteractis for example

Well, I guess a word like "carpet anemone" isn't scientifically defined, so
I suppose you can use it to mean whatever you want. But I don't think this is
the definition that most other people use.

Instead, it seems quite common to refer to "carpet anemone" as a strict subset
of "sea anemone", namely the ones that are large and flat and short-tentacled
and bury in the sand.

> I'm quite familiar that a rose is color variant of a Entacmaea quadricolor

OK, well then in your definitions, what kind of sea anemone is NOT a carpet?
Of the 10-20 species of sea anemones that clownfish host in out in the wild,
do you think they are ALL "carpet anemones"? What anemone is not a carpet?

(I suppose you could be thinking of non-sea anemones, such as "mushroom
anemones". But do you believe that all wild clownfish-hosting anemones are
carpets? I've never heard anyone else use the word that way.)

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
To me, death is like a doorway. And getting knocked out is like one of those
pet doors. And sleep is like a little mouse hole.
-- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

Wayne Sallee

April 3rd 06, 10:25 PM

Yep, in an aquarium with nothing to attack an anemone,
anemones do better without a clown fish.

In the wild, anemones do better with a clown fish.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Don Geddis wrote on 4/3/2006 12:44 PM:
> "Boomer" > wrote on Mon, 3 Apr 2006 :
>> Anemones actually do better without clowns than with clowns for a couple of
>> reasons.
>
> Are you talking about in the wild, or in aquaria?
>
> I'm aware, in aquaria, that sometimes people put one (or more) large clowns
> together with a new small anemone, and the anemone occasionally gets stressed
> from all the rubbing. If the anemone isn't sufficiently larger than the clown
> family, then you're probably right and the anemone would do better without any
> clowns.
>
> But in the wild? I believe the studies have shown that if you remove all
> clownfish from an area of the ocean, then in a short time all the (hosting)
> anemones will also disappear, preyed on by various predators.
>
> It's my understanding that it's pretty well established that the clownfish
> provide at least some degree of defense for their anemones. Do you disagree
> with this?
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
> Whenever I see a rainbow, at first it makes me happy. But then I wonder if, on
> other planets, they have better ones. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

Wayne Sallee

April 3rd 06, 11:08 PM

Would the 3 examples you gave not be associating human
behavior and or anthropomorphic though to what they are
doing? :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Boomer wrote on 4/3/2006 1:49 AM:
> Do not take this wrong but when dealing with animal behavior you need to look outside the
> box and try to keep out human behavior and or anthropomorphic thought. Ask yourself the
> question what else COULD it be doing
>
> 1. Taking food to its "lair" for safe keeping , to eat later, only to be often eaten by
> the anemone
> 2. To remove the food from the nearby water column to avoid the potential of predators.
> 3. To remove the food so other fish do not get it. Survival of it species, by to reducing
> the survival of another competing species. This is quite common in fish.
>

Boomer

April 4th 06, 09:16 PM

NO !!

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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http://www.coralrealm.com

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
: Would the 3 examples you gave not be associating human
: behavior and or anthropomorphic though to what they are
: doing? :-)
:
: Wayne Sallee
: Wayne's Pets
:
:
:
: Boomer wrote on 4/3/2006 1:49 AM:
: > Do not take this wrong but when dealing with animal behavior you need to look outside
the
: > box and try to keep out human behavior and or anthropomorphic thought. Ask yourself
the
: > question what else COULD it be doing
: >
: > 1. Taking food to its "lair" for safe keeping , to eat later, only to be often eaten
by
: > the anemone
: > 2. To remove the food from the nearby water column to avoid the potential of
predators.
: > 3. To remove the food so other fish do not get it. Survival of it species, by to
reducing
: > the survival of another competing species. This is quite common in fish.
: >

Boomer

April 4th 06, 09:36 PM

"Instead, it seems quite common to refer to "carpet anemone" as a strict subset
of "sea anemone", namely the ones that are large and flat and short-tentacled
and bury in the sand"

Not necessarily. Would you consider a Crytodendrum adhaesivum a carpet ? Would use
consider a Heteractis magnifica a carpet ? Many consider the true carpet family to be only
Stichodactyalidae, this includes Stichodactyla ( short tentacle often sand bound ) and
Heteractis ( long tentacle, often rock bound) carpets. If one wants to get picky maybe it
should be only the real carpet, Stichodactyla giagantea :-)

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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"Don Geddis" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote on Sun, 2 Apr 2006 :
: > Sorry but Roses are carpets, there are long tentacle carpets and short
: > tentacle carpets. The longs include, Entacmeae and Heteractis for example
:
: Well, I guess a word like "carpet anemone" isn't scientifically defined, so
: I suppose you can use it to mean whatever you want. But I don't think this is
: the definition that most other people use.
:
: Instead, it seems quite common to refer to "carpet anemone" as a strict subset
: of "sea anemone", namely the ones that are large and flat and short-tentacled
: and bury in the sand.
:
: > I'm quite familiar that a rose is color variant of a Entacmaea quadricolor
:
: OK, well then in your definitions, what kind of sea anemone is NOT a carpet?
: Of the 10-20 species of sea anemones that clownfish host in out in the wild,
: do you think they are ALL "carpet anemones"? What anemone is not a carpet?
:
: (I suppose you could be thinking of non-sea anemones, such as "mushroom
: anemones". But do you believe that all wild clownfish-hosting anemones are
: carpets? I've never heard anyone else use the word that way.)
:
: -- Don
: __________________________________________________ _____________________________
: Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
: To me, death is like a doorway. And getting knocked out is like one of those
: pet doors. And sleep is like a little mouse hole.
: -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

Boomer

April 4th 06, 10:35 PM

Don no, you are 100 % correct. See other post, I should have stated tank anemones

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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"Don Geddis" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote on Mon, 3 Apr 2006 :
: > Anemones actually do better without clowns than with clowns for a couple of
: > reasons.
:
: Are you talking about in the wild, or in aquaria?
:
: I'm aware, in aquaria, that sometimes people put one (or more) large clowns
: together with a new small anemone, and the anemone occasionally gets stressed
: from all the rubbing. If the anemone isn't sufficiently larger than the clown
: family, then you're probably right and the anemone would do better without any
: clowns.
:
: But in the wild? I believe the studies have shown that if you remove all
: clownfish from an area of the ocean, then in a short time all the (hosting)
: anemones will also disappear, preyed on by various predators.
:
: It's my understanding that it's pretty well established that the clownfish
: provide at least some degree of defense for their anemones. Do you disagree
: with this?
:
: -- Don
: __________________________________________________ _____________________________
: Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
: Whenever I see a rainbow, at first it makes me happy. But then I wonder if, on
: other planets, they have better ones. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

Boomer

April 4th 06, 10:56 PM

You have lost it and are contradicting yourself

"The effect of their actions in all 3 case studies will be "feeding their host".
consciously or subconsciously, they do"

"The fact is that it is feeding my anemone and by
feeding I understand a simple act of puting food for the anemone to eat"

That is an act of intention, a deliberate act, it is feeding the anemone, in your way if
thinkin', like a Robin is feeding its young a worm. Please look up the words feeding and
fed.

"So I am not understanding what are you talking about."

That is obvious and that you do not know what you are talking about.

"Yes, fish is not very inteligent,........, so in the aquarium it might asume something
else for its
home and continue feeding it, like it would do in nature"

Oh come on no that is nonsense

"Also, what I have read, the feeding behaviour was NOT observed in nature,
only in aquaria"

That shows you do not know what you are talking about, buy want to argue on it. I also
once believed that and the same for feeding its anemone. Observation in aquariums and in
the wild have shown this to be false.

"What are these reasons ?
I was told clownfish can defend anemone from some predatory fish..."

Yes they can . Evidence and studies show that it points neither way in the wild but is
strongly believed they may do better in the wild, as they are often picked on by
butterflies. Most of these studies are based on the size of the anemones which is a
critical issue, i.e., large one faring well and small ones doing very poorly to actually
disappearing in a short time..The reef tank is another issue, where the often fair worse
with a clown

Clowns will also, at times, remove food from the anemone that it has captured and is
trying eat. What are you going to claim now, that the clown is feeding the water column.
Clowns also steal food captured by the anemone and eat it. Are you now going to claim the
anemone captured the food to feed the clown. Clowns have also been filmed in the wild
luring fish into the anemone. Do think that is an intentional act of trying to feed the
anemone ? Wake up PZ. A clown is just bring back a piece of food back to its safe home
where it can eat it. It tests with a hosted anemone, the fish will bring back the food to
the anemone, often where it does not get a chance to eat it. In the same test, where the
anemone was then removed, the clown, after searching the tank for its anemone and could
not find it, brought the food back to its prior home, a lift tube, where it ate the food.
At time you will actually see the clown trying to eat the food it has been brought back.
Did you know and that it has been repeatedly shown, that clowns at times will pick up ANY
large object in the near by water column they can carrier and bring it back to their home,
be it an anemone or rock. Clowns will also bring back food to it anemone even though the
anemone shut down and can not eat .The food /object just then floats to the surface, often
with the clown just bringing it back, only to float to he surface again.

It is a simple case, the clown is bringing back the food to its home, where it is safe to
eat, often with the anemone eating the food. That is NOT the clown feeding the anemone.
Does the anemone get a meal, yes, did the clown feed it ........NO. If your cat brings in
a dead mouse and drops it near your dog is the cat feeding the dog.

You need to do some research and reading, there are to many myths in this hobby. If you
can find it here is a great start

Behavior of Symbiotic Fishes and Sea Anemones

Richard N. Mariscal
Department of Biological Science
Florida Sate University

One people make remarks about the clown feeding their anemone and 99 % of the time they
think of it as " my anemone needs to eat so I'll go get him some food and feed him" , like
a Robin feeds it young . That is not what is taking place and has been my whole point. The
anemone is getting food from the clown but the clown is not being fed by the clown and the
clown is NOT feeding the anemone and that is a difference. Many animals bring back food
to a safe place to eat and that is all that is going on here, nothing else.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
...
: > Do not take this wrong but when dealing with animal behavior you need to look outside
the
: > box and try to keep out human behavior and or anthropomorphic thought. Ask yourself
the
: > question what else COULD it be doing
: >
: > 1. Taking food to its "lair" for safe keeping , to eat later, only to be often eaten
by
: > the anemone
: > 2. To remove the food from the nearby water column to avoid the potential of
predators.
: > 3. To remove the food so other fish do not get it. Survival of it species, by to
reducing
: > the survival of another competing species. This is quite common in fish.
:
: The effect of their actions in all 3 case studies will be "feeding their host".
: consciously or subconsciously, they do. So I am not understanding what are you talking
about.
: Result is clear and simple: anemone is fed by its resident clowns.
:
: > In all cases the clown often gives the same behavior," feeding its "host". In short,
: > many clowns would appear stupid then........trying to feed a lift tube or a rock :-)
:
: It does not matter for me, what clown "thinks" bringing the food to the anemone.
: Or if it "thinks" at all... The fact is that it is feeding my anemone and by
: feeding I understand a simple act of puting food for the anemone to eat...
: Yes, fish is not very inteligent, fish did not study biology to recognize
: what an anemone is, so in the aquarium it might asume something else for its
: home and continue feeding it, like it would do in nature... Clownfish will not
: be normally found anywhere else than in the anemone host. So comparing his
: behaviour in not-natural environment is quite incorrect.
:
: Also, what I have read, the feeding behaviour was NOT observed in nature,
: only in aquaria.
:
: > It is not a mutualistic relationship between clowns and anemones, it is a commensal
: > relationship where only one benefits, that being the clown. The anemone may benefit by
: > accident or chance but that is not mutualisium. Anemones actually do better without
: > clowns than with clowns for a couple of reasons.
:
: What are these reasons ?
: I was told clownfish can defend anemone from some predatory fish...

Pszemol

April 5th 06, 05:06 AM

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> You have lost it and are contradicting yourself

LOL.
Maybe we just do not understand terms same way, like with the "carpet anemone"?

> "The effect of their actions in all 3 case studies will be "feeding their host".
> consciously or subconsciously, they do"
>
> "The fact is that it is feeding my anemone and by
> feeding I understand a simple act of puting food for the anemone to eat"
>
> That is an act of intention, a deliberate act, it is feeding the anemone, in your way if
> thinkin', like a Robin is feeding its young a worm.

To be honest, I am not sure if robin "knows" it is feeding its young
any more than a clownfish feeding its host anemone...

> Please look up the words feeding and fed.

Sure, no problem:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feeding

feedv. fed, (fd) feed.ing, feeds

To give food to; supply with nourishment: feed the children.
To provide as food or nourishment: fed fish to the cat.

To serve as food for: The turkey is large enough to feed a dozen.
To produce food for: The valley feeds an entire county.

To provide for consumption, utilization, or operation:
feed logs to a fire; feed data into a computer.
To supply with something essential for growth, maintenance, or operation:
Melting snow feeds the reservoirs.
To distribute (a local radio or television broadcast) to a larger audience
or group of receivers by way of a network or satellite.

I do not see in this dictionary any special emphasise on the intentions.
I hope you do not believe the melting snow *intentionally* feeds the reservoirs?

> "So I am not understanding what are you talking about."
>
> That is obvious and that you do not know what you are talking about.

LOL.
I know what I am talking about. I have a pair of maroon clowns in
a large BTA and have observed them a lot for last couple of years.
I know what they are doing, when they are satisfied with what they
have done and when not and they want to fix what did not worked well.

> "Yes, fish is not very inteligent,........, so in the aquarium it might asume something
> else for its home and continue feeding it, like it would do in nature"
>
> Oh come on no that is nonsense

Why ? Do you think fish can recognise anemone from a leather coral ?
I do not know about your fish, but mine did not study zoology :-)))

> That shows you do not know what you are talking about, buy want
> to argue on it. I also once believed that and the same for feeding
> its anemone. Observation in aquariums and in the wild have shown
> this to be false.

I know what I have seen. I am not looking for "intentions",
I am looking at effective result of fish actions...

> Clowns will also, at times, remove food from the anemone that it has captured and is
> trying eat. What are you going to claim now, that the clown is feeding the water column.

I have seen it many times. Do you know when they do it ?
When anemone is too slow to engulf, usually too large morsel.
My interpretation is that clowns feel that something is not
right with this food and it should be removed...
Also, they "defend" their home from floating item like
macroalgae branch pushing it away from the anemone...

> Clowns also steal food captured by the anemone and eat it.
> Are you now going to claim the anemone captured the food to
> feed the clown.

No, my clownfish always eat first :-) They feed anemone only
larger pieces they are not able to eat themselves :-)
Also, when anemone is not grasping food they REPEAT atempt
showing they are not satisfied with the results...
When anemone is properly attaching to the food clowns
are "satisfied" with the feeding attempt... They let the
anemone eat sitting in the nearby not interested with food.
It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
intended for the anemone, not for themselves.

> Clowns have also been filmed in the wild luring fish into
> the anemone. Do think that is an intentional act of trying
> to feed the anemone ?

If you are talking about a typical lounching attacks, than
I have seen it. The fish launches attack and retreats to
the anemone for selfdefense.

> Wake up PZ. A clown is just bring back a piece of food
> back to its safe home where it can eat it.

My fish eats smaller pieces on the spot, where it finds it.
It brings back to the anemone ONLY larger pieces which
it cannot fit properly in its own mouth.

> It tests with a hosted anemone, the fish will bring back the food to
> the anemone, often where it does not get a chance to eat it. In the same test, where the
> anemone was then removed, the clown, after searching the tank for its anemone and could
> not find it, brought the food back to its prior home, a lift tube, where it ate the food.

I do not observe this behaviour in my tank.

> At time you will actually see the clown trying to eat the food it has been brought back.
> Did you know and that it has been repeatedly shown, that clowns at times will pick up ANY
> large object in the near by water column they can carrier and bring it back to their home,
> be it an anemone or rock.

Well, I have not seen this. Must be mine are more intelligent ;-)
I have seen them dragging larger clump of caulerpa away from
anemone during feedings of tangs.

> Clowns will also bring back food to it anemone even though the
> anemone shut down and can not eat .The food /object just then floats
> to the surface, often with the clown just bringing it back, only
> to float to he surface again.

Yes, this I have observed. Clowns are very confused then...
They repeat multiple times the process until the food is
eaten by other fish.

> It is a simple case, the clown is bringing back the food to
> its home, where it is safe to eat, often with the anemone
> eating the food. That is NOT the clown feeding the anemone.

How to explain fish not eating food they bring to the host?
This is what I see in my tank. Anemone gets larger pieces,
the only ones fish are unable to eat.

> Does the anemone get a meal, yes, did the clown feed it ........NO.

Why are you so dedicated to prove it is not feeding ?
Let it go. We do not argue about clowns intentions
but the results of their actions. If you do not want
to call it feeding - fine... but for me it is feeding.

> If your cat brings in a dead mouse and drops
> it near your dog is the cat feeding the dog.

Never had a dog. Would dog eat the mouse in similar situation?
If so, I am sure you can say "cat fed the mouse to the dog".
Why not?

> You need to do some research and reading,
> there are to many myths in this hobby. If you
> can find it here is a great start

I am not really so concerned with the clownfish intentions.
I know that effectivelly, they PROVIDE food to the anemone.
I had to feed it when clowns were not around.
Now I do not have to do it. Clowns do it for me.
The result is that the anemone is fed. Why? What for?
I leave this for scientists...

> Behavior of Symbiotic Fishes and Sea Anemones
>
> Richard N. Mariscal
> Department of Biological Science
> Florida Sate University
>
> One people make remarks about the clown feeding their anemone and 99 % of the time they
> think of it as " my anemone needs to eat so I'll go get him some food and feed him" , like
> a Robin feeds it young . That is not what is taking place and has been my whole point.

How much do you know birds? How well their brains are developed ?
Do they realize the youngs are their offspring which needs to be fed?
Or maybe they are mesmerized with their gaping mouths and they have
natural reflex to put "something" in there to make them shut up ?

> The anemone is getting food from the clown but the clown is not being fed
> by the clown and the clown is NOT feeding the anemone and that is a difference.

Something is wrong in this sentence...

> Many animals bring back food to a safe place to eat and that
> is all that is going on here, nothing else.

I understand you do not want to call it feeding...
But I do not see even small problem with calling this feeding :-)
I judge the actions by the results, not by the intentions.
If the anemone is being provided food items by fish it would
normally not get, than the anemone IS being fed by the fish.
"Providing food to be eaten" is simply called feeding in my dictionary.

AverageSchmuck

April 5th 06, 06:30 AM

The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
takes it right to his hole every single time.

Pszemol

April 5th 06, 01:27 PM

"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message ...
> The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
> because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
> dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
> keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
> wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
> off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
> takes it right to his hole every single time.

Let me understand this:
you keep a lionfish together with a clownfish in one tank ?

AverageSchmuck

April 5th 06, 02:41 PM

yup ... as long as the fish is bigger than the lionfish's mouth no
problems. In fact the lionfish is more of a puss than the clown or the
tang.

On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 07:27:51 -0500, "Pszemol" >
wrote:

>"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message ...
>> The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
>> because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
>> dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
>> keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
>> wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
>> off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
>> takes it right to his hole every single time.
>
>Let me understand this:
>you keep a lionfish together with a clownfish in one tank ?

Boomer

April 5th 06, 06:36 PM

You obviously must still be in the be in the beginner stage, this is quite common lol.
Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion. As
long as you know what you are doing

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message
...
: > The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
: > because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
: > dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
: > keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
: > wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
: > off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
: > takes it right to his hole every single time.
:
: Let me understand this:
: you keep a lionfish together with a clownfish in one tank ?

Pszemol

April 5th 06, 06:50 PM

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> You obviously must still be in the be in the beginner stage, this is quite common lol.
> Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion.
> As long as you know what you are doing

What exactly are you saying here ? What do you refer to by "same"?

AverageSchmuck

April 5th 06, 07:41 PM

My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that
Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have
learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog).
Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is
rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here.

On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:50:20 -0500, "Pszemol" >
wrote:

>"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
>> You obviously must still be in the be in the beginner stage, this is quite common lol.
>> Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion.
>> As long as you know what you are doing
>
>What exactly are you saying here ? What do you refer to by "same"?

Pszemol

April 5th 06, 08:04 PM

"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message ...
> My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that
> Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have
> learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog).
> Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is
> rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here.

Well, I was asking before and expressing my surprise just
because as most people I believed it is very aggressive
fish which eats any other fish in the tank...
In fact I have seen videos of other scorpion fish hunting
in the nauture and it was impressive how wide their mouths
open and suck the prey in an instant...
I have never own lionfish myself (and I am not really attracted
so much to such aggressive fish) so I have learned something
new today...

Boomer

April 5th 06, 08:04 PM

Your assumption would be correct

Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion.
As long as you know what you are doing"

Meaning you can keep all these with lions, if you know what you are doing. I kept a 12 "
Volitans for 12 years in a 55 gal , with smaller fish and always with a pair of mated
RBCS.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message
...
: My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that
: Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have
: learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog).
: Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is
: rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here.
:
: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:50:20 -0500, "Pszemol" >
: wrote:
:
: >"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
: >> You obviously must still be in the be in the beginner stage, this is quite common
lol.
: >> Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion.
: >> As long as you know what you are doing
: >
: >What exactly are you saying here ? What do you refer to by "same"?
:

Boomer

April 5th 06, 08:29 PM

PZ the are not aggressive ( in regards to feeding on tanks mates, which is really not
aggression) in captivity most of the time. Most that have lions will tell you they are not
aggressive at all but quite peaceful. That does not mean always. . Lions are very
peaceful, useless some fish or shrimp ****es it off. The pretty much just sit and mind
their own business. Many people have put lions in tanks only to loose tanks mates as a
food item. If you make the lion happy it pretty much leaves all other fish and inverts
alone. Please lets not get started on words again but a lion eating fish and shrimp, is
not aggression or aggressive behavior, it is just eating, feeding its self :-). Matter
of fact one needs to be careful with some fish, which are aggressive and pick on lions,
usually the tail and large side fins, often with the lion still showing no signs of
aggression.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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http://www.coralrealm.com

"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message
...
: > My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that
: > Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have
: > learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog).
: > Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is
: > rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here.
:
: Well, I was asking before and expressing my surprise just
: because as most people I believed it is very aggressive
: fish which eats any other fish in the tank...
: In fact I have seen videos of other scorpion fish hunting
: in the nauture and it was impressive how wide their mouths
: open and suck the prey in an instant...
: I have never own lionfish myself (and I am not really attracted
: so much to such aggressive fish) so I have learned something
: new today...

Boomer

April 5th 06, 09:26 PM

Well, Psz

I had a very long posted page ready to post, basically explaining on this issue why you
do not know what you are talking about, with many examples. When it comes to animal
behavior you are lost, not to mention how big that whole is you dug yourself with those
remarks. I went to hit a key and the whole post ended up a blank page ( not the first
time either :-( ). It took about an half hour and I'm not about to redue it, so I'm going
got drop the subject, unless you want to continue on.

If you read this your tune would change, not to mention some of the videos and pic on the
clowns, some of which have been on TV

Behavior of Symbiotic Fishes and Sea Anemones

Richard N. Mariscal
Department of Biological Science
Florida Sate University

"Why are you so dedicated to prove it is not feeding "

No, I'm not, you are the one determined to prove that the are actually are feeing the
anemone. I made a remark that they are really not feeding the anemone , an intentional
act. You then went ballistic. Take note that clowns bring back objects, both inorganic and
organic to their anemone.

If you gave your idea in a animal behavior class, based on you observation, you would get
at least a D if not an F. All studies and research that have been done on the subject
disagree with you. I raised clowns for almost 30 yeas with and without anemones. And you
are a whole WOW 2 years

But I can not let this slide by

"I know what I have seen

Seeing and knowing are not the same thing.

"I do not observe this behaviour in my tank."

This means nothing

"I know what I have seen. I am not looking for "intentions"

"It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
intended for the anemone, not for themselves."

So there it is, you just stated it is intended, make up your mind. Your whole post and
you are just as confusing as some clowns

"My interpretation is that clowns feel that something is not
right with this food and it should be removed"

I feel out of my chair I was laughing so hard. They now know what the anemone should and
should not eat. Then why are there pics and videos of clowns bringing back to their
anemone things they can not eat like sticks, wood and plastic.

THE END
--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message ...
: > You have lost it and are contradicting yourself
:
: LOL.
: Maybe we just do not understand terms same way, like with the "carpet anemone"?
:
: > "The effect of their actions in all 3 case studies will be "feeding their host".
: > consciously or subconsciously, they do"
: >
: > "The fact is that it is feeding my anemone and by
: > feeding I understand a simple act of puting food for the anemone to eat"
: >
: > That is an act of intention, a deliberate act, it is feeding the anemone, in your way
if
: > thinkin', like a Robin is feeding its young a worm.
:
: To be honest, I am not sure if robin "knows" it is feeding its young
: any more than a clownfish feeding its host anemone...
:
: > Please look up the words feeding and fed.
:
: Sure, no problem:
: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feeding
:
: feedv. fed, (fd) feed.ing, feeds
:
: To give food to; supply with nourishment: feed the children.
: To provide as food or nourishment: fed fish to the cat.
:
: To serve as food for: The turkey is large enough to feed a dozen.
: To produce food for: The valley feeds an entire county.
:
: To provide for consumption, utilization, or operation:
: feed logs to a fire; feed data into a computer.
: To supply with something essential for growth, maintenance, or operation:
: Melting snow feeds the reservoirs.
: To distribute (a local radio or television broadcast) to a larger audience
: or group of receivers by way of a network or satellite.
:
: I do not see in this dictionary any special emphasise on the intentions.
: I hope you do not believe the melting snow *intentionally* feeds the reservoirs?
:
: > "So I am not understanding what are you talking about."
: >
: > That is obvious and that you do not know what you are talking about.
:
: LOL.
: I know what I am talking about. I have a pair of maroon clowns in
: a large BTA and have observed them a lot for last couple of years.
: I know what they are doing, when they are satisfied with what they
: have done and when not and they want to fix what did not worked well.
:
: > "Yes, fish is not very inteligent,........, so in the aquarium it might asume
something
: > else for its home and continue feeding it, like it would do in nature"
: >
: > Oh come on no that is nonsense
:
: Why ? Do you think fish can recognise anemone from a leather coral ?
: I do not know about your fish, but mine did not study zoology :-)))
:
: > That shows you do not know what you are talking about, buy want
: > to argue on it. I also once believed that and the same for feeding
: > its anemone. Observation in aquariums and in the wild have shown
: > this to be false.
:
: I know what I have seen. I am not looking for "intentions",
: I am looking at effective result of fish actions...
:
: > Clowns will also, at times, remove food from the anemone that it has captured and is
: > trying eat. What are you going to claim now, that the clown is feeding the water
column.
:
: I have seen it many times. Do you know when they do it ?
: When anemone is too slow to engulf, usually too large morsel.
: My interpretation is that clowns feel that something is not
: right with this food and it should be removed...
: Also, they "defend" their home from floating item like
: macroalgae branch pushing it away from the anemone...
:
: > Clowns also steal food captured by the anemone and eat it.
: > Are you now going to claim the anemone captured the food to
: > feed the clown.
:
: No, my clownfish always eat first :-) They feed anemone only
: larger pieces they are not able to eat themselves :-)
: Also, when anemone is not grasping food they REPEAT atempt
: showing they are not satisfied with the results...
: When anemone is properly attaching to the food clowns
: are "satisfied" with the feeding attempt... They let the
: anemone eat sitting in the nearby not interested with food.
: It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
: intended for the anemone, not for themselves.
:
: > Clowns have also been filmed in the wild luring fish into
: > the anemone. Do think that is an intentional act of trying
: > to feed the anemone ?
:
: If you are talking about a typical lounching attacks, than
: I have seen it. The fish launches attack and retreats to
: the anemone for selfdefense.
:
: > Wake up PZ. A clown is just bring back a piece of food
: > back to its safe home where it can eat it.
:
: My fish eats smaller pieces on the spot, where it finds it.
: It brings back to the anemone ONLY larger pieces which
: it cannot fit properly in its own mouth.
:
: > It tests with a hosted anemone, the fish will bring back the food to
: > the anemone, often where it does not get a chance to eat it. In the same test, where
the
: > anemone was then removed, the clown, after searching the tank for its anemone and
could
: > not find it, brought the food back to its prior home, a lift tube, where it ate the
food.
:
: I do not observe this behaviour in my tank.
:
: > At time you will actually see the clown trying to eat the food it has been brought
back.
: > Did you know and that it has been repeatedly shown, that clowns at times will pick up
ANY
: > large object in the near by water column they can carrier and bring it back to their
home,
: > be it an anemone or rock.
:
: Well, I have not seen this. Must be mine are more intelligent ;-)
: I have seen them dragging larger clump of caulerpa away from
: anemone during feedings of tangs.
:
: > Clowns will also bring back food to it anemone even though the
: > anemone shut down and can not eat .The food /object just then floats
: > to the surface, often with the clown just bringing it back, only
: > to float to he surface again.
:
: Yes, this I have observed. Clowns are very confused then...
: They repeat multiple times the process until the food is
: eaten by other fish.
:
: > It is a simple case, the clown is bringing back the food to
: > its home, where it is safe to eat, often with the anemone
: > eating the food. That is NOT the clown feeding the anemone.
:
: How to explain fish not eating food they bring to the host?
: This is what I see in my tank. Anemone gets larger pieces,
: the only ones fish are unable to eat.
:
: > Does the anemone get a meal, yes, did the clown feed it ........NO.
:
: Why are you so dedicated to prove it is not feeding ?
: Let it go. We do not argue about clowns intentions
: but the results of their actions. If you do not want
: to call it feeding - fine... but for me it is feeding.
:
: > If your cat brings in a dead mouse and drops
: > it near your dog is the cat feeding the dog.
:
: Never had a dog. Would dog eat the mouse in similar situation?
: If so, I am sure you can say "cat fed the mouse to the dog".
: Why not?
:
: > You need to do some research and reading,
: > there are to many myths in this hobby. If you
: > can find it here is a great start
:
: I am not really so concerned with the clownfish intentions.
: I know that effectivelly, they PROVIDE food to the anemone.
: I had to feed it when clowns were not around.
: Now I do not have to do it. Clowns do it for me.
: The result is that the anemone is fed. Why? What for?
: I leave this for scientists...
:
: > Behavior of Symbiotic Fishes and Sea Anemones
: >
: > Richard N. Mariscal
: > Department of Biological Science
: > Florida Sate University
: >
: > One people make remarks about the clown feeding their anemone and 99 % of the time
they
: > think of it as " my anemone needs to eat so I'll go get him some food and feed him" ,
like
: > a Robin feeds it young . That is not what is taking place and has been my whole point.
:
: How much do you know birds? How well their brains are developed ?
: Do they realize the youngs are their offspring which needs to be fed?
: Or maybe they are mesmerized with their gaping mouths and they have
: natural reflex to put "something" in there to make them shut up ?
:
: > The anemone is getting food from the clown but the clown is not being fed
: > by the clown and the clown is NOT feeding the anemone and that is a difference.
:
: Something is wrong in this sentence...
:
: > Many animals bring back food to a safe place to eat and that
: > is all that is going on here, nothing else.
:
: I understand you do not want to call it feeding...
: But I do not see even small problem with calling this feeding :-)
: I judge the actions by the results, not by the intentions.
: If the anemone is being provided food items by fish it would
: normally not get, than the anemone IS being fed by the fish.
: "Providing food to be eaten" is simply called feeding in my dictionary.
:

Pszemol

April 5th 06, 10:17 PM

OK...

Let's go back a little to your request to look into a dictionary
to find a proper meaning for the word "feeding".

I have checked my dictionary, found this definition,
and there was nothing there I can find about intentions...
Feeding was defined as a simple act of providing food,
providing nourishment, which is happening in my tank.

Could you please provide me with a definition of the "feeding"
from the dictionary which you found elaborating on intentions ?

Maybe your understanding of the word "feeding" is different
than the one which can be found in an English Dictionary? :-)))

Thank you.

p.s. I am very calm, far far away from "going balistic"
I am not sure where are you getting this idea from :-)))

Boomer

April 5th 06, 11:19 PM

Psz

You are quite aware of what is meant by the term of feeding by your own posts on this
issues and what others mean in term feeding the anemone Go back and read them. Stop the
spinning. You dug yourself a hole and are looking for a way out. You are trying to pull
out all angles to make you look right and trying to rephrase yourself, to look better.
Hole digging. You contradict your own self.

""It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
intended for the anemone, not for themselves"........................................F in
animal behavior for sure

Conclusion the clown is intentionally feeding the anemone ..PERIOD. The clown KNOWS it is
feeding the anemone. The clown brain is telling him "their is a piece of food and I will
bring it back to my anemone because he is hungry, so I need to feed him.

So they must also be feeding the anemone sticks, wood, plastic, etc. and other
objects.... LOL

That speaks it all and for all to see

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: OK...
:
: Let's go back a little to your request to look into a dictionary
: to find a proper meaning for the word "feeding".
:
: I have checked my dictionary, found this definition,
: and there was nothing there I can find about intentions...
: Feeding was defined as a simple act of providing food,
: providing nourishment, which is happening in my tank.
:
: Could you please provide me with a definition of the "feeding"
: from the dictionary which you found elaborating on intentions ?
:
: Maybe your understanding of the word "feeding" is different
: than the one which can be found in an English Dictionary? :-)))
:
: Thank you.
:
: p.s. I am very calm, far far away from "going balistic"
: I am not sure where are you getting this idea from :-)))

Pszemol

April 5th 06, 11:52 PM

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> You are quite aware of what is meant by the term of feeding by your own posts on this
> issues and what others mean in term feeding the anemone Go back and read them. Stop the
> spinning. You dug yourself a hole and are looking for a way out. You are trying to pull
> out all angles to make you look right and trying to rephrase yourself, to look better.
> Hole digging. You contradict your own self.

Do not try to read between the lines... please :-)
I just asked you for YOUR definition of "feeding". What is wrong about it ?
A definition which whould NOT MATCH to clownfish behaviour I observe in my tank.

> ""It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
> intended for the anemone, not for themselves"........................................F in
> animal behavior for sure

Please relax...
There is no contradiction here. We just simply misunderstood each other.
Let me explain:
I see intention, but also I know the intention is not needed to accept
an action as feeding. Exactly as in the example from the dictionary
I have quoted: "Melting snow feeds the reservoirs."
Melting snow has not intended to feed the reservoirs, do you agree ? :-))

What I see in my tank LOOKS TO ME LIKE *intentional* feeding.
I know that not everything is what it looks like, so I am ready
to agree with you about clowns intentions are different... :-)
But...
Feeding in the dictionary has a broader meaning and DOES NOT REQUIRE
intention in the word definition itself. So I do not see a reason
which could prevent calling this action feeding.

You cannot accept even a broader term "feeding" to the action observed,
even if I agree with you that clowns MIGHT be not aware they are,
in fact, feeding their host...
So, it looks to me as intentional feeding, but not knowing what is boiling
in the little fish's brain I agree not to argue about fish intentions here.
Putting intentions aside, it is still "feeding" in the broader meaning
similar to unintended "feeding" of the reservoirs by the melting snow...

At this moment you are not agruing with me, you argue with a dictionary :-)

> Conclusion the clown is intentionally feeding the anemone ..PERIOD.
> The clown KNOWS it is feeding the anemone. The clown brain is telling
> him "their is a piece of food and I will bring it back to my anemone
> because he is hungry, so I need to feed him.

This is exactly how it looks to me, but (of course) it could be false
impression and I have already agreed with you that this *could be*
unintentional behaviour. The fact is that the anemone is being fed,
and the clown is doing this job of feeding (intentionally or not...),
so I do not see the reason to not call this process "feeding" based
on the dictionary definition I know. You are more than welcome to
provide a better definition of this word.

> So they must also be feeding the anemone sticks, wood, plastic, etc.
> and other objects.... LOL
>
> That speaks it all and for all to see

I admire some scientists for being so sure they know what animal
thinks about and what its intentions are...

Knowing how hard it is to understand each other sometimes, between
human beings, using the same language - understanding little animals
and being sure about their intentions based simply on observation
of their behaviour must be very, very hard... But still some of them
do not leave any room for doubt... Amazing!

William Marsh

April 6th 06, 12:08 AM

Hello: I had a lion many years ago and I bought minnows at the lFS and I
would keep them in a small 10 gal and feed him every other day. The fun was
watching him stalk the minnow and suck him in. You ought to try it once, its
fun. I also fed a anemone minnows once in awhile and the clown would try to
steel it from the anemone. I don't remember what brand though.
Bill
"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message
...
> The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
> because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
> dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
> keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
> wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
> off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
> takes it right to his hole every single time.

William Marsh

April 6th 06, 12:10 AM

Hi again. I forgot that the lion did hang like a bat when resting. Good
memories.Bill
"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message
...
> To be perfectly honest Lionfish are extremely predictable fish. They
> hide absolutely nothing about their "Fight or Flight Response" 99% of
> the time they will flight. Only time I have ever seen the lionfish
> aggresive towards fish is when they swim on top of him while he is in
> a resting state in corner of tank, hanging from tail like a bat and
> that is pretty much he swims in a circular motion and they leave. As
> soon as he feels secure again he returns to his bat in the belfry
> position. Besides that their were only 2 other occasions where he was
> aggressive and both well was me. 1. I had to get him some sort of
> nutrients when he dislocated his jaw on top of increasing nutrients in
> water from additives that contain iodine I would inject pureed fish
> parts into is mouth with a turkey baster. Well he hates that baster
> and yes tries to spine it. I think its funny but it was for his own
> good. 2. I over thought the addition of a goby to tank. I was hoping
> that the goby was fast enough to out swim him. Well gobies are fast
> but not fast enough. I knew better but second guessed myself.
>
> Now the Yellow tang, Clown and Limbahi Cromus. Those 3 fish are much
> more aggressive than the lion by far. The Cromus is just insane he
> will taunt any fish in tank. Now the Maroon clown and yellow tang both
> have defensive/attack abilities. Clown with cheek spikes and yellow
> tang with tail bones that are venomous. All 3 of those fish are by far
> more aggressive and more territoral than the lion fish. Keep in mind
> all the fish in tank are adult fish. The lion is about 7 - 8 inches in
> length. Clown probably about 3-4 inches. tang easily 4-5 inches and
> cromus slighly smaller than clown. I also have a very healthy clean
> crew with hermits snails and stars and no problems at all.
>
> Say whatever you like about that combo of fish I was just stating my
> observations of their behaviors and interaction with one another.
>
> But back to the converstion. Yes I have observed the exact behavior
> that Rock described in his posts with my Maroon clown. He guards that
> hole in rock formation and cleans it very well mind you. I used to
> bury it everytime he carved it out cause it takes my Sand bed below
> 1inch in that spot with him carving it out but he quickly fixs my work
> on that one so I just let him have the spot and I am gonna add more
> sand bed to an improved sump as I can afford it. He does bring food to
> his hole all the time. I know if I drop a shrimp part or he steals it
> wait about 10 min come back to remove cause he will find it and hide
> it in that hole every single time. Gosh I hope he is not feeding my
> tonga rock their.

William Marsh

April 6th 06, 12:14 AM

Although I was very watchful while I was cleaning the tank, I always knew
where he was. I did not want to run into one of the dorsal fin spikes and
find out how venemouse thay are. Bill
"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> PZ the are not aggressive ( in regards to feeding on tanks mates, which is
> really not
> aggression) in captivity most of the time. Most that have lions will tell
> you they are not
> aggressive at all but quite peaceful. That does not mean always. . Lions
> are very
> peaceful, useless some fish or shrimp ****es it off. The pretty much just
> sit and mind
> their own business. Many people have put lions in tanks only to loose
> tanks mates as a
> food item. If you make the lion happy it pretty much leaves all other fish
> and inverts
> alone. Please lets not get started on words again but a lion eating fish
> and shrimp, is
> not aggression or aggressive behavior, it is just eating, feeding its
> self :-). Matter
> of fact one needs to be careful with some fish, which are aggressive and
> pick on lions,
> usually the tail and large side fins, often with the lion still showing
> no signs of
> aggression.
>
> --
> Boomer
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
>
> Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
> Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
> http://www.coralrealm.com
>
>
>
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> ...
> : "AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message
> ...
> : > My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that
> : > Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have
> : > learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog).
> : > Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is
> : > rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here.
> :
> : Well, I was asking before and expressing my surprise just
> : because as most people I believed it is very aggressive
> : fish which eats any other fish in the tank...
> : In fact I have seen videos of other scorpion fish hunting
> : in the nauture and it was impressive how wide their mouths
> : open and suck the prey in an instant...
> : I have never own lionfish myself (and I am not really attracted
> : so much to such aggressive fish) so I have learned something
> : new today...
>
>

Boomer

April 6th 06, 12:14 AM

There is no sense in replying ay more period

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com

"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message ...
: > You are quite aware of what is meant by the term of feeding by your own posts on this
: > issues and what others mean in term feeding the anemone Go back and read them. Stop
the
: > spinning. You dug yourself a hole and are looking for a way out. You are trying to
pull
: > out all angles to make you look right and trying to rephrase yourself, to look better.
: > Hole digging. You contradict your own self.
:
: Do not try to read between the lines... please :-)
: I just asked you for YOUR definition of "feeding". What is wrong about it ?
: A definition which whould NOT MATCH to clownfish behaviour I observe in my tank.
:
: > ""It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
: > intended for the anemone, not for themselves"........................................F
in
: > animal behavior for sure
:
: Please relax...
: There is no contradiction here. We just simply misunderstood each other.
: Let me explain:
: I see intention, but also I know the intention is not needed to accept
: an action as feeding. Exactly as in the example from the dictionary
: I have quoted: "Melting snow feeds the reservoirs."
: Melting snow has not intended to feed the reservoirs, do you agree ? :-))
:
: What I see in my tank LOOKS TO ME LIKE *intentional* feeding.
: I know that not everything is what it looks like, so I am ready
: to agree with you about clowns intentions are different... :-)
: But...
: Feeding in the dictionary has a broader meaning and DOES NOT REQUIRE
: intention in the word definition itself. So I do not see a reason
: which could prevent calling this action feeding.
:
: You cannot accept even a broader term "feeding" to the action observed,
: even if I agree with you that clowns MIGHT be not aware they are,
: in fact, feeding their host...
: So, it looks to me as intentional feeding, but not knowing what is boiling
: in the little fish's brain I agree not to argue about fish intentions here.
: Putting intentions aside, it is still "feeding" in the broader meaning
: similar to unintended "feeding" of the reservoirs by the melting snow...
:
: At this moment you are not agruing with me, you argue with a dictionary :-)
:
: > Conclusion the clown is intentionally feeding the anemone ..PERIOD.
: > The clown KNOWS it is feeding the anemone. The clown brain is telling
: > him "their is a piece of food and I will bring it back to my anemone
: > because he is hungry, so I need to feed him.
:
: This is exactly how it looks to me, but (of course) it could be false
: impression and I have already agreed with you that this *could be*
: unintentional behaviour. The fact is that the anemone is being fed,
: and the clown is doing this job of feeding (intentionally or not...),
: so I do not see the reason to not call this process "feeding" based
: on the dictionary definition I know. You are more than welcome to
: provide a better definition of this word.
:
: > So they must also be feeding the anemone sticks, wood, plastic, etc.
: > and other objects.... LOL
: >
: > That speaks it all and for all to see
:
: I admire some scientists for being so sure they know what animal
: thinks about and what its intentions are...
:
: Knowing how hard it is to understand each other sometimes, between
: human beings, using the same language - understanding little animals
: and being sure about their intentions based simply on observation
: of their behaviour must be very, very hard... But still some of them
: do not leave any room for doubt... Amazing!

Boomer

April 6th 06, 02:19 AM

I did 20 years ago and spent 3 day in the hospital. I got hit with two dorsal spines.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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http://www.coralrealm.com

:
:

Pszemol

April 6th 06, 01:50 PM

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> I see you are still digging holes for yourself.. I figured you would post about exactly
> what you just did. You are talking or want to keep talking in circles. You think maybe you
> have won on at least on point , as you have been blown away on all others. It is your last
> chance ditch effort to make yourself look good and is the only reason behind this last
> post. You are thinkin maybe I have not lost my credibility YET on this issue.

Your attempt of interpretation of what I am doing is amazing...
I have really no idea what are you getting these impressions.
Are you projecting what you would do in similar situation or what?
I cannot recognise you, Boomer, recently... you have changed :-(

> You already know my definition of the word feeding in clowns . I guess you are still
> confused
>
> Feeding is the process by which organisms, typically animals, obtain food. In behavior
> the anemone is feeding off the food the fish brought it but the fish is not feeding the
> anemone, a behavioral active intentional act in animal behavior field....WHICH IS
> WHAT YOU CLAIM and all evidence disagrees with you.

You have referred me to the dictionary to check my definition of "feeding"...
I have checked mine and found I understand this word as in dictionary.

What dictionary are you taking your definition from ? Can you quote the source ?
How "intentions" can be detected in animals lacking their brain, for example: medusa ?
What are "intentions" of meduza, which has no brain, and - does not think ?
Is it still feeding, if there are no intentions? :-))

> Every one that is reading this thread knows what I mean
> and what you meant, to include youself.

Well, I would not be so sure about this...
Have you conducted any survey ? :)

> You made the claim on what your clown is doing, not me and now you
> are trying to defend it to make it you look better.

I do not care to "look better". I do not have phd in animal behaviorism,
I do not have any title to defend in front of my students :-))
I can afford to be wrong in my observations - I am just a hobbyist
observing a single pair of maroon clowns in a single tank...
I have shared my observations and my interpretations of these.
I said many times, that I can agree with scientists about the lack
of intentions in the clowns behaviour, even if this is clear only
from looking at my pair. My pair is probably not representative, so
I can undestood it does not involve intentions - ok.

What I have problem with is associations of "feeding" with intentions.
My dicionary supports my understanding of word "feeding".
You have some problems quoting any dictionary supporting your version...
What is wrong in this picture ? :-)

> You are trying to find ways to dig yourself out of the hole.
> " um, maybe if I keep on the 'feeding" definition thing I'll
> gain some lost ground" Give it Up

The problem is I am not in any hole...
I do not need to dig myself - I am perfectly fine with being wrong.
I just ask you to show me in some reputable source your definition
of word "feeding" :-) Do I ask for too much ? :-)

> Go head and dig some more post holes, I really do not care

Yes you do...

Wayne Sallee

April 6th 06, 04:00 PM

But then one has to ask the question " Is this instinct
for feeding the anemone even though it's not there?" The
question has to be asked, which is the normal, and which
is the resulting outcome in the abnormal?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

AverageSchmuck wrote on 4/5/2006 1:30 AM:
> The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
> because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
> dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
> keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
> wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
> off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
> takes it right to his hole every single time.

Wayne Sallee

April 6th 06, 04:16 PM

CBS are a a lot easier to keep with a lion than the
regular skunk cleaners, as the cbs are a lot more
agressive, and more able to defend themselves.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Boomer wrote on 4/5/2006 3:04 PM:
> Meaning you can keep all these with lions, if you know what you are doing. I kept a 12 "
> Volitans for 12 years in a 55 gal , with smaller fish and always with a pair of mated
> RBCS.
>

Wayne Sallee

April 6th 06, 04:44 PM

And yes I have known about this idea that "anemone fish
are not intentionally feeding their anemone" for many
years :-)

But I still think that there is more design and purpose
than many people see.

And I agree that the definition of "feeding" does not have
to include "intention".

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Wayne Sallee wrote on 4/6/2006 11:00 AM:
> But then one has to ask the question " Is this instinct for feeding the
> anemone even though it's not there?" The question has to be asked, which
> is the normal, and which is the resulting outcome in the abnormal?
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> AverageSchmuck wrote on 4/5/2006 1:30 AM:
>> The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
>> because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
>> dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
>> keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
>> wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
>> off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
>> takes it right to his hole every single time.

Pszemol

April 6th 06, 05:55 PM

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message ...
> And yes I have known about this idea that "anemone fish
> are not intentionally feeding their anemone" for many
> years :-)
>
> But I still think that there is more design and purpose
> than many people see.
>
> And I agree that the definition of "feeding" does not have
> to include "intention".

Exactly.
Instinct does not have to mean "premeditated intentions".

AverageSchmuck

April 6th 06, 05:56 PM

I am unsure what both of you are arguing about but my observation.

I watch my clown take food and place it in his hole that he carved in
the sand near the live rock. He sleeps their, rests their, guards it,
and yes without the anenome takes food their. Same exact behavior
that he would do if their was an anenome present. What I am seeing is
same thing mammals do when they indentify a resource and want it for
themselves. Dogs are very good at showing this! Its called "Resource
Guarding" and it is not always food. It can be anything they see as a
possible resource for enjoyment, food, anything. Now this resource
gaurding happens to be an advantage for the anenome even though it
does not appear the clown is comprehending fully what he is doing. The
clown simply is seeing hey bingo resource quick hide it before I have
to waste energy fighting for it and then their is the anenome (The
clowns "Safe Spot") benefitting from this. A symbiotic relationship
does not always mean they intend on helping each nor does it mean each
depends on other for survival. Each organism their can very
effectively survive on its own without other. So in conclusion your
both correct and both wrong! After all to feed doesnt always mean
intention but does matter what definition you wish to define the act
of feeding by because after look up on it seems it is implied to have
intention on some and others completely unneccesary.

However I do belive in my opinion that calling the behavior of the
clown taking food to his safe spot feeding is a tad mislabeled but
still correct only if safe spot is a living organism that will eat the
food or item he/she is taking their because his intention appears to
be "Resource Guarding". I see same behavior in my tank but clown is
taking food and items to a rock. Now the rock has no use for the food
so you cant say he is feeding his safe spot. So proper terminolgy for
the act your both talking about would be better labeled "Resource
Guarding" with a side effect of feeding in certain circumstances.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feed

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=symbiotic

AverageSchmuck

April 6th 06, 06:01 PM

My intention is not to argue fight insult... none of that you guys are
simply talking about something I really get into. Something I have
done since I was a small child watch wildlife and track their behavior
... What I do and I think I do well in a job that involves that but
money you need money to be formally trained.

Wayne Sallee

April 6th 06, 06:20 PM

I don't want to rule out that they might know that they
are feeding the anemone. How do we know that they don't
know that the anemone is eating the food?

My personal fealing is that it is a little bit of both.
Just because it is one, does not mean that it is not some
of the other.

For example:

I had a customer that had a pair of clown fish with a
variety of fish, and two skunk cleaner shrimp. They were
all getting along just fine for a long time. Then he
decided to add a carpet anemone. The clownfish loved the
new addition, and started killing and draging the cleaner
shrimps, and other fish into the anemone. Nothing had
changed but the addition of the anemone. This raises the
question of what were they thinking when they went bazerk,
killing and feeding the anemene.

My figuring is that they were going to breed, and fish
that are breeding, are more agressive to other creatures,
but, did they kill them to eat them later??? I don't think
so. When damsel fish kill other fish, they don't drag them
back to the spot where they sleep. So there's got to be a
reason why a clownfish will kill a fish, and drag it back
to the place where they sleep.

And yes, I know that clown fish are categorized in with
the damsel fish.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

AverageSchmuck wrote on 4/6/2006 1:01 PM:
> My intention is not to argue fight insult... none of that you guys are
> simply talking about something I really get into. Something I have
> done since I was a small child watch wildlife and track their behavior
> ... What I do and I think I do well in a job that involves that but
> money you need money to be formally trained.

AverageSchmuck

April 6th 06, 06:55 PM

well I am not up completely on the mating behavior but I do know with
most species try to horde and fatten up for lack of better word when
they are going through mating. So the slaughter of the shrimps may not
have anything to do with feeding the anenome but hording food for the
act of mating and raising their young now that they feel comfortable
with the situation enough to mate. Now I cant say its completely
impossible that they are not feeding I just see it as very unlikely
that they are intending on feeding the anenome. It could be possible
that the anenome caused them to get more aggressive due to the
shrimps wanting to clean it. The clowns are territorial so they may
have killed it due to that and said hey why waste it save it for
later. Its possible I supose .. just shooting stuff out their in a
brain storm fashion.

Maybe Don Ghedis could supply more information on their mating rituals
on that concern cause he seems to be very up on that and to be honest
I think he mates them.

Boomer

April 6th 06, 10:41 PM

My last post on this thread

.. I have not changed I think you have. This thread ( my remarks) is on animal behavior and
its relationship to feeding behavior and its interpretation. You would need to seek an
ethnology book and read its section on feeding behavior, a science. I sent you to a
dictionary to see where you would go with it, I. was disappointed. A std English
dictionary is not the place to be on this subject. That was my point to see where you
would go. I'm surprised you did not look up the term anthropomorphic and have a go at
that as well. You are still dwelling on the dictionary term. I was trying here to give a
lesson, it did not work. I once wrote a undergraduate paper ; "The Food and Habits and
Feeding Behavior of the American River Otter ( Lutra canadensis )". No it was never in
print and I do not even have a copy of it any more, it was 25 years ago. But have brought
it upon forums, when picking on Ronny ;-)

"Your attempt of interpretation of what I am doing is amazing..."

Then why its it I pretty much know what your post are going to be

Peoples behavior and actions are often easy to project in certain situations...sorry. And
I'll bet some here projected mine as well :-)

"I do not need to dig myself - I am perfectly fine with being wrong"

If you are fine at being wrong then why do you say the fish is intentionally feeding its
anemone, when all studies and experts on clowns differ with you. I raised then for a
couple of decades and friend of mine raises and breeds clowns, especially rare ones and
collects host anemones

I have probably been a pain in the ass on this thread ...sorry and should have approached
it differently. Rather than "feeding" the fuel :-)
--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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http://www.coralrealm.com

"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message ...
: > I see you are still digging holes for yourself.. I figured you would post about
exactly
: > what you just did. You are talking or want to keep talking in circles. You think maybe
you
: > have won on at least on point , as you have been blown away on all others. It is your
last
: > chance ditch effort to make yourself look good and is the only reason behind this last
: > post. You are thinkin maybe I have not lost my credibility YET on this issue.
:
: Your attempt of interpretation of what I am doing is amazing...
: I have really no idea what are you getting these impressions.
: Are you projecting what you would do in similar situation or what?
: I cannot recognise you, Boomer, recently... you have changed :-(
:
: > You already know my definition of the word feeding in clowns . I guess you are still
: > confused
: >
: > Feeding is the process by which organisms, typically animals, obtain food. In behavior
: > the anemone is feeding off the food the fish brought it but the fish is not feeding
the
: > anemone, a behavioral active intentional act in animal behavior field....WHICH IS
: > WHAT YOU CLAIM and all evidence disagrees with you.
:
: You have referred me to the dictionary to check my definition of "feeding"...
: I have checked mine and found I understand this word as in dictionary.
:
: What dictionary are you taking your definition from ? Can you quote the source ?
: How "intentions" can be detected in animals lacking their brain, for example: medusa ?
: What are "intentions" of meduza, which has no brain, and - does not think ?
: Is it still feeding, if there are no intentions? :-))
:
: > Every one that is reading this thread knows what I mean
: > and what you meant, to include youself.
:
: Well, I would not be so sure about this...
: Have you conducted any survey ? :)
:
: > You made the claim on what your clown is doing, not me and now you
: > are trying to defend it to make it you look better.
:
: I do not care to "look better". I do not have phd in animal behaviorism,
: I do not have any title to defend in front of my students :-))
: I can afford to be wrong in my observations - I am just a hobbyist
: observing a single pair of maroon clowns in a single tank...
: I have shared my observations and my interpretations of these.
: I said many times, that I can agree with scientists about the lack
: of intentions in the clowns behaviour, even if this is clear only
: from looking at my pair. My pair is probably not representative, so
: I can undestood it does not involve intentions - ok.
:
: What I have problem with is associations of "feeding" with intentions.
: My dicionary supports my understanding of word "feeding".
: You have some problems quoting any dictionary supporting your version...
: What is wrong in this picture ? :-)
:
: > You are trying to find ways to dig yourself out of the hole.
: > " um, maybe if I keep on the 'feeding" definition thing I'll
: > gain some lost ground" Give it Up
:
: The problem is I am not in any hole...
: .
: I just ask you to show me in some reputable source your definition
: of word "feeding" :-) Do I ask for too much ? :-)
:
: > Go head and dig some more post holes, I really do not care
:
: Yes you do...

Boomer

April 6th 06, 10:53 PM

"I don't want to rule out that they might know that they
are feeding the anemone. How do we know that they don't
know that the anemone is eating the food?"

If they know that Wayne, then why do they bring sticks to anemones and other not eatable
items/objects

"The clownfish loved the
new addition, and started killing and draging the cleaner
shrimps, and other fish into the anemone. Nothing had
changed but the addition of the anemone. This raises the
question of what were they thinking when they went bazerk,
killing and feeding the anemene."

It is called a "threat behavioral response"

Just to throw out something kinda new. Some researchers think that a clowns **** is an
important food source to anemones. Base on this and a few other know things ( beating off
predators, etc..) it may bring clown and their anemone more to a mutualistic relationship.

I will not reply :-)

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
:I don't want to rule out that they might know that they
: are feeding the anemone. How do we know that they don't
: know that the anemone is eating the food?
:
: My personal fealing is that it is a little bit of both.
: Just because it is one, does not mean that it is not some
: of the other.
:
: For example:
:
: I had a customer that had a pair of clown fish with a
: variety of fish, and two skunk cleaner shrimp. They were
: all getting along just fine for a long time. Then he
: decided to add a carpet anemone. The clownfish loved the
: new addition, and started killing and draging the cleaner
: shrimps, and other fish into the anemone. Nothing had
: changed but the addition of the anemone. This raises the
: question of what were they thinking when they went bazerk,
: killing and feeding the anemene.
:
: My figuring is that they were going to breed, and fish
: that are breeding, are more agressive to other creatures,
: but, did they kill them to eat them later??? I don't think
: so. When damsel fish kill other fish, they don't drag them
: back to the spot where they sleep. So there's got to be a
: reason why a clownfish will kill a fish, and drag it back
: to the place where they sleep.
:
: And yes, I know that clown fish are categorized in with
: the damsel fish.
:
: Wayne Sallee
: Wayne's Pets
:
:
:
: AverageSchmuck wrote on 4/6/2006 1:01 PM:
: > My intention is not to argue fight insult... none of that you guys are
: > simply talking about something I really get into. Something I have
: > done since I was a small child watch wildlife and track their behavior
: > ... What I do and I think I do well in a job that involves that but
: > money you need money to be formally trained.

Wayne Sallee

April 6th 06, 10:57 PM

Boomer wrote on 4/6/2006 5:53 PM:
> "I don't want to rule out that they might know that they
> are feeding the anemone. How do we know that they don't
> know that the anemone is eating the food?"
>
> If they know that Wayne, then why do they bring sticks to anemones and other not eatable
> items/objects
>

Well it's sure not to eat it later :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Boomer

April 6th 06, 10:59 PM

So back to the same thing, it thinks its anemone can eat a wooden stick or plastic straw
so it "feeds" it.

"Instinct does not have to mean "premeditated intentions"

You forgot a work :-) Innate

" But I still think that there is more design and purpose
: > than many people see"

Base on what, you see better or more than others ??

There will not be a reply ;-)

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com

"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
: > And yes I have known about this idea that "anemone fish
: > are not intentionally feeding their anemone" for many
: > years :-)
: >
: > But I still think that there is more design and purpose
: > than many people see.
: >
: > And I agree that the definition of "feeding" does not have
: > to include "intention".
:
: Exactly.
: Instinct does not have to mean "premeditated intentions".
:

Pszemol

April 7th 06, 01:07 AM

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> "I don't want to rule out that they might know that they
> are feeding the anemone. How do we know that they don't
> know that the anemone is eating the food?"
>
> If they know that Wayne, then why do they bring
> sticks to anemones and other not eatable items/objects

Because they do not have a PhD in zoology ? :-)
Have you been exposed to a term "instinct"?
Do you think a dog "knows" to cover his droppings?
Or this is just an instinct? Do you think a baby
mammal "knows" that it needs to suck the mother
to survive or this is just blind instinct ?
The same might be with "clown feeding anemone" fenomena.
You expect too much "perfect sense" while interpreting
observation as intentions...

Even in humans it is difficult to judge other person.
Like - you see a person smoking a cigarette. Do you
assume based on this observation, the person intends
to kill himself from painfull lung cancer?

Maybe clown feels a temptation to bring food to his
anemone and does it without knowing exactly what is
he doing...

But this discussion drifted far away from the subject
and focused on YOU using common hobby terms in uncommon
meaning (to start with carpet anemone). You still did
not provide a dictionary quotation requiring intention
in the meaning of word "feeding".

> I will not reply :-)

What are you afraid of? :-))

Pszemol

April 7th 06, 01:08 AM

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message ...
> Boomer wrote on 4/6/2006 5:53 PM:
>> "I don't want to rule out that they might know that they
>> are feeding the anemone. How do we know that they don't
>> know that the anemone is eating the food?"
>>
>> If they know that Wayne, then why do they bring sticks to anemones and other not eatable
>> items/objects
>
> Well it's sure not to eat it later :-)

Good one, Wayne! :-))

Pszemol

April 7th 06, 01:24 AM

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> My last post on this thread

I have found one more you sent 12 minutes after this one... ;-)
And one more, another 6 minutes later... :-))))
But this is perfectly fine with me :-))))) Feel free to add more!
Your posts are as always, very informative...

> I sent you to a dictionary to see where you would go with it,
> I. was disappointed. A std English dictionary is not the place
> to be on this subject.

Could you do me a favor and QUOTE a *definition* of "feeding"
from one of such sources? Thank you. That would be helpfull
and constructive critic.

BTW -
We are not writing a PhD dissertation here - we are discussing
on a public forum, and we expect a common English to be used.
If you know you use a common word in a uncommon meaning, it
would be YOUR responsibility to warn about the difference since YOU
are the scientist here who knows both meanings, not us, hobbyists.

(see confusion about you using word "carpet anemone" to describe BTA).

> "Your attempt of interpretation of what I am doing is amazing..."
>
> Then why its it I pretty much know what your post are going to be

You "knew it", but after the fact...
That kind of knowing future is easy.
Do not give yourself too much credit ;-)

> If you are fine at being wrong then why do you say the fish is
> intentionally feeding its anemone, when all studies and experts
> on clowns differ with you.

Because TO ME it looks like intentional feeding...
The same way like the robin bird feeding its chicks feeding.
Even if it is not intentional feeding, it is still feeding.
I do not care if it is premeditated or driven by a blind
instinct. It is feeding because food is actively provided.

This is the only definition of word feeding I know so far...
You are more than welcome providing a better definition
and I will gladly change my mind. As I said before - marine
zoology or animal behaviourism is not my business profession
so I do not feel bad making mistake in this field... :-))

> I have probably been a pain in the ass on this thread ...
> sorry and should have approached it differently.

Yes, it was noticable different than your previous
participation in this group... Instead of focusing
on the issue, you make it too much PERSONAL thing.
Short tempered and impatient with us, dumb hobbyist... :-)
That is sad change, I expected more from you as an expert here.
I hope it was just your bad day ;-)

Pszemol

April 7th 06, 01:33 AM

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> So back to the same thing, it thinks its anemone can eat
> a wooden stick or plastic straw so it "feeds" it.

Putting aside I have never seen this in my tank, tell me please:
Why is the clownfish bringing unedible items to its nest ?
I am sure it is not "to eat it later" :-)

I see female clown from my pair frequently CLEANING the nest
site by REMOVING vigorously items like shells, pieces of rock
or feeder-algae I put in tank for tangs. Also she is wiping
the sand surface clean by waging its tail fin creating quite
strong water current away from the anemone... pushing all
debris away from the nest.

Is this behaviour (bringing wooden sticks/straws)
observed in the nature? With anemone host or without one ?

> "Instinct does not have to mean "premeditated intentions"
>
> You forgot a work :-) Innate

Sorry, I do not follow this one...

AverageSchmuck

April 7th 06, 02:14 AM

Lol I am sorry but I do have to make a little fun here Psz please
forgive me.

>Do you think a dog "knows" to cover his droppings?
>Or this is just an instinct?

Does anyone else see the problem in the above statement cause I have
been around dogs my entire life and never observed a dog doing this
but my cats do.

>Even in humans it is difficult to judge other person.
>Like - you see a person smoking a cigarette. Do you
>assume based on this observation, the person intends
>to kill himself from painfull lung cancer?

The Cigarette/cancer conversation is one that can spin way out of
control. not ussually a good foundation for proving points.

;-) I am sorry bro but I found a little humor their. Please don't be
angry ;-)

AverageSchmuck

April 7th 06, 02:21 AM

Here is something to ponder on :

The Robin feeding her newly hatched chics is it instinct for her to do
this or is it learned response because her mother before her did it
and so forth. I ask this cause not just mom feeds pop does also. I
mean we don't necessarly remeber our birth or much from our first few
years but proven our subconcious does which is where people start to
call it instinct but is it really. I would imagine as a baby we take
to feeding on mom breast because we smell the fats when held up to
it.

Pszemol

April 7th 06, 01:41 PM

"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message ...
> Lol I am sorry but I do have to make a little fun here Psz please
> forgive me.
>
>>Do you think a dog "knows" to cover his droppings?
>>Or this is just an instinct?
>
> Does anyone else see the problem in the above statement cause I have
> been around dogs my entire life and never observed a dog doing this
> but my cats do.

Dog, cats, cangaroo - the name of the particular animal is not important
here. What is important here, that some animals, including humans with
huge and well working brains!!! DO certain things out of instinct, reflex.
Without putting much thinking into it. Similar thing can be with clownfish.

>>Even in humans it is difficult to judge other person.
>>Like - you see a person smoking a cigarette. Do you
>>assume based on this observation, the person intends
>>to kill himself from painfull lung cancer?
>
>The Cigarette/cancer conversation is one that can spin way out of
>control. not ussually a good foundation for proving points.

Yes, it is generally not a good idea to comment such thing to a stranger ;)

> ;-) I am sorry bro but I found a little humor their. Please don't be
> angry ;-)

I am far from being angry, "bro" :-)

Pszemol

April 7th 06, 01:42 PM

"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message ...
> Here is something to ponder on :
>
> The Robin feeding her newly hatched chics is it instinct for her to do
> this or is it learned response because her mother before her did it
> and so forth. I ask this cause not just mom feeds pop does also. I
> mean we don't necessarly remeber our birth or much from our first few
> years but proven our subconcious does which is where people start to
> call it instinct but is it really. I would imagine as a baby we take
> to feeding on mom breast because we smell the fats when held up to
> it.

Whatever the reason is, we do not do it "because we intended to feed" :-)
We do it out of blind instinct.

AverageSchmuck

April 7th 06, 03:59 PM

Seriously if your trying to prove a point or convince someone of said
point it might be advantagous to at least pick something that is
considered to be instinct.
First so you know for sure what the definition is :

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

in·stinct (nstngkt)
n.

1. An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species
and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli.

2. A powerful motivation or impulse.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
in·stinctive or in·stinctu·al (n-stngkch-l) adj.

Source: The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by
Houghton Mifflin Company.

Main Entry: in·stinct
Pronunciation: 'in-"sti[ng](k)t
Function: noun
1 : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to
make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without
involving reason
2 : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster,
Inc.

---- 1 of the 5 entries at this web address
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=instinct

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now with definition in mind that means that whatever is considered in
instinct is unalterable. Example might be our heartbeat!!! We can not
consciously alter our heartbeat with exception of some very rare
Tibetan monks that can meditate and raise and drop their bodies core
temp and slow and speed their heartbeat. Now because those monks can
alter those on a conscious level that opens the debate that even our
heartbeat is not instinct.

You used the example of and I qoute here:

"Do you think a dog "knows" to cover his droppings?"

Of course I responded to this trying to make a joke of it cause you
either have no idea what your talking about or my assumption you got
mixed up and wrote the wrong mammal. I do not disagree with the fact
that some stuff in this world might be instinct but we are dealing
with more basic stuff than you think here like swimming to a fish. Now
let me explain your example I am going to assume you meant cat. Now
with cat when their born they do not know to clean themselves. They do
not know to go poop on loose gravel and then bury it. All of that is
taught to them by their mothers. First few weeks mother eats their
poop it helps stimulate the lactation to feed their young. Then as the
get older the mother slowly teaches them what the food dish is, how to
clean themselves by doing it, purring is even a learned thing that mom
teaches them. Hunting is a taught thing also. Cats are a social animal
and typically social behavior animals are taught almost all of their
basic skills from birth through interaction in thier social circles.
Yes even for us!!!!!! Now the possibilty to learn in that fashion
could be instinctive behavior but the activities themselves are
ussually not.

My point here is if your gonna use something to support your argument
maybe it should actually support your argument and not defeat your
argument. I seriously was joking I thought it was abudantly clear
until I see your half cocked response. Whatever I know you will
respond and it will not be nice doesnt matter to me and not worth the
argument hence I will not reply to this particular post again.

JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE BELOW BELOW BELOW BELOW

cangaroo? Can I get those at the super market by chance? Must be next
to cancorn.

I know it was a real knee slapper!!!! ;-)

Later Days!!!!

AverageSchmuck

April 7th 06, 04:02 PM

"blind instinct" ? define that all I find is instinct

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 07:42:37 -0500, "Pszemol" >
wrote:

>"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message ...
>> Here is something to ponder on :
>>
>> The Robin feeding her newly hatched chics is it instinct for her to do
>> this or is it learned response because her mother before her did it
>> and so forth. I ask this cause not just mom feeds pop does also. I
>> mean we don't necessarly remeber our birth or much from our first few
>> years but proven our subconcious does which is where people start to
>> call it instinct but is it really. I would imagine as a baby we take
>> to feeding on mom breast because we smell the fats when held up to
>> it.
>
>Whatever the reason is, we do not do it "because we intended to feed" :-)
>We do it out of blind instinct.

Pszemol

April 7th 06, 07:32 PM

"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message ...
> Seriously if your trying to prove a point or convince someone of said
> point it might be advantagous to at least pick something that is
> considered to be instinct.

So you are saying that behaviour of covering its own poop is NOT an instinct ?
That is is learned from the parents. Do I understand you correctly, Jaime ?

> First so you know for sure what the definition is :

Where excatly in my text I am using this word out of its meaning
to let you assume I do not know its meaning ?

> Now with definition in mind that means that whatever is considered
> in instinct is unalterable. Example might be our heartbeat!!!

Really ? A heartbeat is an instinct ? Where are you geting this from ?
Wow... this is something new for me and very interesting :-)

AverageSchmuck

April 7th 06, 08:33 PM

Ok I know I said I wasnt going to reply but I have to now.

You sir as I figured would post in a hateful hurtful manner but I
never for one second thought you would stoop so low as to call me by a
name that is not me. You are accusing me of being Jaime from previous
posts and that sir could not be any further from the truth. I am not
Jaime and I do not know Jaime and I am on completely different coast
line all together from Jaime. So I can see now you have no interest in
debating a topic in a educated manner. In fact you dont even show the
inclination of showing your interested in sharing ideas. All your
interested in is beating down and humilating anyone that happens to
disagree with you. Hey get over it you not all that and a bag of
chips. So I bid you farewell!!!!!

Please don't force me to add you to my plonk list cause I do have
interst in learning without censoring people out but if you continue
in a pursuit to insult then I will be forced to.

Later days!!!!

PS .. Please dont assume!

Pszemol

April 7th 06, 10:44 PM

"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message ...
> Ok I know I said I wasnt going to reply but I have to now.

This is some kind of bug on this newsgroup recently...
A lot of people are saying never to respond, and then they do :-)

> You sir as I figured would post in a hateful hurtful manner

Hateful ? Hurtful ? It is not me :-) You get it all wrong, sir.
I am very, very friendly guy...

> never for one second thought you would stoop so low
> as to call me by a name that is not me.

I am sorry, this is not your name ? What is you name, then ?

> You are accusing me of being Jaime from previous
> posts and that sir could not be any further from the truth.

How can I know this ? :-)
You, sir, apeared out of nowhere on this group and right
a way become a friend with Jaime :-)))
It just looked like you are his alter ego :-)
If not - than I am sorry for calling you Jaime.
I am surprised you take it as an insult - I though you liked the guy ;-)

> So I can see now you have no interest in debating a topic
> in a educated manner.

No, I have great interest in debating a topic...
Calling you Jaime was the 2nd agenda I had - wanted to throw this
and see how you react. You know, I can multitask a little :-)

> In fact you dont even show the
> inclination of showing your interested in sharing ideas.

Where have you noticed this ? I am just sharing the ideas
in a thread about the slug.

> Please don't force me to add you to my plonk list cause I do have
> interst in learning without censoring people out but if you continue
> in a pursuit to insult then I will be forced to.

Who you read and who you don't is your personal business
and I have nothing to do with this. Feel free to add me to your
plonk list if you feel like it. I really do not care, I am serious...

> PS .. Please dont assume!

Sorry for calling you "Jaime" - can you search in your heart and forgive me ?

Let's go back to the thread about instincts and tell me more about it...

AverageSchmuck

April 7th 06, 11:20 PM

LMAO ROFL Seriously this is beyond explanation. Thread is done as
far as I am concerned for me .. Thank you for killing the
conversation!

Pszemol

April 7th 06, 11:39 PM

"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message ...
> Thread is done as far as I am concerned for me ..
> Thank you for killing the conversation!

Do not thank me - this choice is only yours :-)

George Patterson

April 8th 06, 01:14 AM

Pszemol wrote:

> So you are saying that behaviour of covering its own poop is NOT an
> instinct ?
> That is is learned from the parents. Do I understand you correctly, Jaime ?

That is correct. If you take a kitten away from its mother early enough, it will
not cover its feces even when grown. The mother trains her kittens.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Pszemol

April 8th 06, 03:38 AM

"George Patterson" > wrote in message news:4gDZf.877$Fp4.349@trnddc01...
> Pszemol wrote:
>
>> So you are saying that behaviour of covering its own poop is NOT an
>> instinct ?
>> That is is learned from the parents. Do I understand you correctly, Jaime ?
>
> That is correct. If you take a kitten away from its mother early enough, it will
> not cover its feces even when grown. The mother trains her kittens.

OK, so it was a bad example of an instinct if we talk about cats...

But I was not talking about cats - I was talking about dogs, doing their
thing with rear legs, kicking some grass over their poop. The habbit
looking like their want to cover their poop with sand/grass...
I have never had a dog, so it is hard for me to interprete this behaviour.
What dogs do when they kick some grass over their poop with rear legs?

Is this an instinct or is it something else ?

Pszemol

April 8th 06, 03:04 PM

"AverageSchmuck" > wrote in message
...
> "blind instinct" ? define that all I find is instinct

I would loosly define it as a pure kind of instinct.
The one which is undistracted with an even smallest thought :-)
Of course it is not a scientific term, it was a figure of speach.

Wayne Sallee

April 8th 06, 03:27 PM

Maybe that dog was raised by a cat :-)
Dogs normaly don't do that. Not any that I've know of
anyway. Maybe there's some breeds that do that, but I've
never seen it.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Pszemol wrote on 4/7/2006 10:38 PM:

>>
>> That is correct. If you take a kitten away from its mother early
>> enough, it will not cover its feces even when grown. The mother trains
>> her kittens.
>
> OK, so it was a bad example of an instinct if we talk about cats...
>
> But I was not talking about cats - I was talking about dogs, doing their
> thing with rear legs, kicking some grass over their poop. The habbit
> looking like their want to cover their poop with sand/grass...
> I have never had a dog, so it is hard for me to interprete this behaviour.
> What dogs do when they kick some grass over their poop with rear legs?
> Is this an instinct or is it something else ?

Pszemol

April 8th 06, 04:01 PM

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Maybe that dog was raised by a cat :-)
> Dogs normaly don't do that. Not any that I've know of anyway. Maybe
> there's some breeds that do that, but I've never seen it.

I was talking with one dog owner originating from Europe,
like me, and he has confirmed my observation. He has told me,
that what I have seen is an act of marking a territory. Do not
know details, or do not care about them too much since I have
no dogs, but the fact is that I was not imagining this :-)

Maybe dogs who are neutered as puppies loose
this instinct - who knows, I am not a dog person :-)

Anyway, as Mr. Schmuck has noted here, an instinct is
an inborn pattern of *behavior* that is characteristic of a species
and this is what we as aquarists observe in our aquaria
when we see a clownfish feeding an anemone. It is not required
for an action to be intentional, conscious, deliberated to be
called "feeding" and many animals without brains show feeding
response to an external stimuli. So I really still do not quite
understand why would Boomer state anemone fish do not feed
anemones, its a myth, if so many aquarist have seen it with their
own eyes... Puzzled!

George Patterson

April 8th 06, 09:16 PM

Pszemol wrote:

> But I was not talking about cats - I was talking about dogs, doing their
> thing with rear legs, kicking some grass over their poop. The habbit
> looking like their want to cover their poop with sand/grass...
> I have never had a dog, so it is hard for me to interprete this behaviour.
> What dogs do when they kick some grass over their poop with rear legs?
> Is this an instinct or is it something else ?

I've had several dogs. Only one of them (a Scottish Terrier) ever did this at
all, and he didn't do it every time. The coonhound I have now never does this.
We've had her 4 years.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Pszemol

April 9th 06, 12:44 AM

"George Patterson" > wrote in message news:USUZf.3865$WL4.1164@trnddc07...
> Pszemol wrote:
>
>> But I was not talking about cats - I was talking about dogs, doing their
>> thing with rear legs, kicking some grass over their poop. The habbit
>> looking like their want to cover their poop with sand/grass...
>> I have never had a dog, so it is hard for me to interprete this behaviour.
>> What dogs do when they kick some grass over their poop with rear legs?
>> Is this an instinct or is it something else ?
>
> I've had several dogs. Only one of them (a Scottish Terrier)
> ever did this at all, and he didn't do it every time.

Well, I am glad I hear about some dogs actually do what I saw...
You are the 2nd source now :-) It is not that bad with me after all...
I was almost worried about my mental health after Mr. Schmuck
had accused me of mixing cats with dogs :-)))

Boomer

April 9th 06, 12:45 AM

I see you are still dragging on the issue post after post, you just can't quite until you
are sure of yourself > Ok I got back my credit now. Your post here are getting sicker by
the day and you say I'm personnel. Please go look in the mirror. You do not debate here
Psz, it is you starting arguments and needing the last say. When things do not go your way
you bash and belittle them.

Just for ****s and giggles

"Calling you Jaime was the 2nd agenda I had - wanted to throw this
and see how you react. You know, I can multitask a little :-)"

Ok, it is OK for you to do this but not for someone else to see how you would react.

Does this guy have to pass some kind of Psz test ?

So far he has beat you to death, so bash him and name call

*behavior* that is characteristic of a species

Yes, it is called Innate behavior

: It is not required
: for an action to be intentional, conscious, deliberated to be
: called "feeding" and many animals without brains show feeding
: response to an external stimuli.

That is correct

So I really still do not quite
: understand why would Boomer state anemone fish do not feed
: anemones, its a myth, if so many aquarist have seen it with their
: own eyes... Puzzled!

You are puzzled for sure. YOU think the clown is intentional, consciously, deliberately
feeding the anemone because it needs to be fed.You think and believe that through most of
this thread. All know that . That is where we part and has always been my view, that they
are NOT intentional, consciously, deliberately feeding the anemone, because it needs to be
fed. And that was not your original intent from the get go and almost all others know
that. You know it and so do all others but for some unknown reason you go on and on and
on. Yet you continue to spin things. Do you think you have lost that much ground. It is
all your continuous arguing that looses your ground.You need to stop spinning you are
getting dizzy.

__My clown is feeding its anemone_

It is the phrasing of the sentence that is misleading. And when people say "my clownfish
is feeding my anemone" the intent of the person is that the clown knows it is giving food,
feeding is anemone, he/she needs it.

Being you are an expert on clown fish behavior why is the clown "feeding" the anemone a
wooden stick ? It is on a flippin' video

It is not required
: for an action to be intentional, conscious, deliberated to be
: called "feeding" and many animals without brains show feeding
: response to an external stimuli.

Correct but you still believe the clown is intentional, consciously, deliberately feeding
the anemone because it needs to be fed. It knows it is feeding its anemone.

YES OR NO

"if so many aquarist have seen it with their
: own eyes... "

Just because one sees an act DOES NOT mean they understand it.

If you polled people in this hobby on " my clown is feeding its anemone" and what they
meant by that statement. You would get an answer something like this; " the clown knows
the anemone needs to be fed so he feeds it". 99% of the time

Lets throw this at you

How about if all these action of innate behavior all stem from different modes or levels
of "threat response behavior". These threats are usually removed by the anemone. That is
why things/objects/large chunks of food are brought to the anemone. The clown does not
know the difference usually, so most are treated the same usually. Since it is an innate
behavior, it would continue even if home was a rock, lift tube or what ever. So, the fish
would not really be" feeding" the anemone, although some may end up as food.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com

"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
: ...
: > Maybe that dog was raised by a cat :-)
: > Dogs normaly don't do that. Not any that I've know of anyway. Maybe
: > there's some breeds that do that, but I've never seen it.
:
: I was talking with one dog owner originating from Europe,
: like me, and he has confirmed my observation. He has told me,
: that what I have seen is an act of marking a territory. Do not
: know details, or do not care about them too much since I have
: no dogs, but the fact is that I was not imagining this :-)
:
: Maybe dogs who are neutered as puppies loose
: this instinct - who knows, I am not a dog person :-)
:
: Anyway, as Mr. Schmuck has noted here, an instinct is
: an inborn pattern of *behavior* that is characteristic of a species
: and this is what we as aquarists observe in our aquaria
: when we see a clownfish feeding an anemone. It is not required
: for an action to be intentional, conscious, deliberated to be
: called "feeding" and many animals without brains show feeding
: response to an external stimuli. So I really still do not quite
: understand why would Boomer state anemone fish do not feed
: anemones, its a myth, if so many aquarist have seen it with their
: own eyes... Puzzled!
:

Wayne Sallee

April 14th 06, 05:37 PM

I have also seen a fish kill another fish or shrimp, or
come across such, and take it and feed it to an anemone or
large polyp coral, even though it did not have any
relationship to the coral or anemone, and it's quarters
was in another part of the tank. But the fish did so
because it knew that the coral or anemone would eat it, so
it was an easy way to dispose of the body, and/or finish
it off.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Boomer wrote on 4/8/2006 7:45 PM:
> I see you are still dragging on the issue post after post, you just can't quite until you
> are sure of yourself > Ok I got back my credit now. Your post here are getting sicker by
> the day and you say I'm personnel. Please go look in the mirror. You do not debate here
> Psz, it is you starting arguments and needing the last say. When things do not go your way
> you bash and belittle them.
>
>
>
>
> Just for ****s and giggles
>
> "Calling you Jaime was the 2nd agenda I had - wanted to throw this
> and see how you react. You know, I can multitask a little :-)"
>
> Ok, it is OK for you to do this but not for someone else to see how you would react.
>
> Does this guy have to pass some kind of Psz test ?
>
> So far he has beat you to death, so bash him and name call
>
> *behavior* that is characteristic of a species
>
> Yes, it is called Innate behavior
>
> : It is not required
> : for an action to be intentional, conscious, deliberated to be
> : called "feeding" and many animals without brains show feeding
> : response to an external stimuli.
>
> That is correct
>
> So I really still do not quite
> : understand why would Boomer state anemone fish do not feed
> : anemones, its a myth, if so many aquarist have seen it with their
> : own eyes... Puzzled!
>
> You are puzzled for sure. YOU think the clown is intentional, consciously, deliberately
> feeding the anemone because it needs to be fed.You think and believe that through most of
> this thread. All know that . That is where we part and has always been my view, that they
> are NOT intentional, consciously, deliberately feeding the anemone, because it needs to be
> fed. And that was not your original intent from the get go and almost all others know
> that. You know it and so do all others but for some unknown reason you go on and on and
> on. Yet you continue to spin things. Do you think you have lost that much ground. It is
> all your continuous arguing that looses your ground.You need to stop spinning you are
> getting dizzy.
>
>
> __My clown is feeding its anemone_
>
> It is the phrasing of the sentence that is misleading. And when people say "my clownfish
> is feeding my anemone" the intent of the person is that the clown knows it is giving food,
> feeding is anemone, he/she needs it.
>
> Being you are an expert on clown fish behavior why is the clown "feeding" the anemone a
> wooden stick ? It is on a flippin' video
>
> It is not required
> : for an action to be intentional, conscious, deliberated to be
> : called "feeding" and many animals without brains show feeding
> : response to an external stimuli.
>
> Correct but you still believe the clown is intentional, consciously, deliberately feeding
> the anemone because it needs to be fed. It knows it is feeding its anemone.
>
> YES OR NO
>
>
>
>
> "if so many aquarist have seen it with their
> : own eyes... "
>
> Just because one sees an act DOES NOT mean they understand it.
>
> If you polled people in this hobby on " my clown is feeding its anemone" and what they
> meant by that statement. You would get an answer something like this; " the clown knows
> the anemone needs to be fed so he feeds it". 99% of the time
>
> Lets throw this at you
>
> How about if all these action of innate behavior all stem from different modes or levels
> of "threat response behavior". These threats are usually removed by the anemone. That is
> why things/objects/large chunks of food are brought to the anemone. The clown does not
> know the difference usually, so most are treated the same usually. Since it is an innate
> behavior, it would continue even if home was a rock, lift tube or what ever. So, the fish
> would not really be" feeding" the anemone, although some may end up as food.
>

Boomer

April 15th 06, 03:04 AM

Yes, still but sill a threat response pure and simple

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
:I have also seen a fish kill another fish or shrimp, or
: come across such, and take it and feed it to an anemone or
: large polyp coral, even though it did not have any
: relationship to the coral or anemone, and it's quarters
: was in another part of the tank. But the fish did so
: because it knew that the coral or anemone would eat it, so
: it was an easy way to dispose of the body, and/or finish
: it off.
:
: Wayne Sallee
: Wayne's Pets
:
:
:
: Boomer wrote on 4/8/2006 7:45 PM:
: > I see you are still dragging on the issue post after post, you just can't quite until
you
: > are sure of yourself > Ok I got back my credit now. Your post here are getting sicker
by
: > the day and you say I'm personnel. Please go look in the mirror. You do not debate
here
: > Psz, it is you starting arguments and needing the last say. When things do not go your
way
: > you bash and belittle them.
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > Just for ****s and giggles
: >
: > "Calling you Jaime was the 2nd agenda I had - wanted to throw this
: > and see how you react. You know, I can multitask a little :-)"
: >
: > Ok, it is OK for you to do this but not for someone else to see how you would react.
: >
: > Does this guy have to pass some kind of Psz test ?
: >
: > So far he has beat you to death, so bash him and name call
: >
: > *behavior* that is characteristic of a species
: >
: > Yes, it is called Innate behavior
: >
: > : It is not required
: > : for an action to be intentional, conscious, deliberated to be
: > : called "feeding" and many animals without brains show feeding
: > : response to an external stimuli.
: >
: > That is correct
: >
: > So I really still do not quite
: > : understand why would Boomer state anemone fish do not feed
: > : anemones, its a myth, if so many aquarist have seen it with their
: > : own eyes... Puzzled!
: >
: > You are puzzled for sure. YOU think the clown is intentional, consciously,
deliberately
: > feeding the anemone because it needs to be fed.You think and believe that through most
of
: > this thread. All know that . That is where we part and has always been my view, that
they
: > are NOT intentional, consciously, deliberately feeding the anemone, because it needs
to be
: > fed. And that was not your original intent from the get go and almost all others know
: > that. You know it and so do all others but for some unknown reason you go on and on
and
: > on. Yet you continue to spin things. Do you think you have lost that much ground. It
is
: > all your continuous arguing that looses your ground.You need to stop spinning you are
: > getting dizzy.
: >
: >
: > __My clown is feeding its anemone_
: >
: > It is the phrasing of the sentence that is misleading. And when people say "my
clownfish
: > is feeding my anemone" the intent of the person is that the clown knows it is giving
food,
: > feeding is anemone, he/she needs it.
: >
: > Being you are an expert on clown fish behavior why is the clown "feeding" the anemone
a
: > wooden stick ? It is on a flippin' video
: >
: > It is not required
: > : for an action to be intentional, conscious, deliberated to be
: > : called "feeding" and many animals without brains show feeding
: > : response to an external stimuli.
: >
: > Correct but you still believe the clown is intentional, consciously, deliberately
feeding
: > the anemone because it needs to be fed. It knows it is feeding its anemone.
: >
: > YES OR NO
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > "if so many aquarist have seen it with their
: > : own eyes... "
: >
: > Just because one sees an act DOES NOT mean they understand it.
: >
: > If you polled people in this hobby on " my clown is feeding its anemone" and what
they
: > meant by that statement. You would get an answer something like this; " the clown
knows
: > the anemone needs to be fed so he feeds it". 99% of the time
: >
: > Lets throw this at you
: >
: > How about if all these action of innate behavior all stem from different modes or
levels
: > of "threat response behavior". These threats are usually removed by the anemone. That
is
: > why things/objects/large chunks of food are brought to the anemone. The clown does not
: > know the difference usually, so most are treated the same usually. Since it is an
innate
: > behavior, it would continue even if home was a rock, lift tube or what ever. So, the
fish
: > would not really be" feeding" the anemone, although some may end up as food.
: >