UV Sterlizer

[buff82driver]

I have a 75G fish only sal****er tank that if I had to guess has about
30 pound of live rock. Right now its on a really light bio-load with
two Marineland filters: Emperor 400 and a canister 350. What size and
brand/type of UV sterlizer should I get? I was thinking of a unit to
hang off the back of the tank with its own pump or run the return half
of the water from the 350 that goes out the nozzle and not the
bio-wheels through it. I'm thinking that 25 watts is a fair size to use
with a flow rate in the high 200s to mid 300s GPH...

Thanks,
Jeff

[TheRock]

I think you should pass on the UV if you don't have a protein skimmer.
Do you have one ?

"buff82driver" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I have a 75G fish only sal****er tank that if I had to guess has about
> 30 pound of live rock. Right now its on a really light bio-load with
> two Marineland filters: Emperor 400 and a canister 350. What size and
> brand/type of UV sterlizer should I get? I was thinking of a unit to
> hang off the back of the tank with its own pump or run the return half
> of the water from the 350 that goes out the nozzle and not the
> bio-wheels through it. I'm thinking that 25 watts is a fair size to use
> with a flow rate in the high 200s to mid 300s GPH...
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff
>

[Pszemol]

"buff82driver" > wrote in message oups.com...
> I have a 75G fish only sal****er tank that if I had to guess has about
> 30 pound of live rock. Right now its on a really light bio-load with
> two Marineland filters: Emperor 400 and a canister 350. What size and
> brand/type of UV sterlizer should I get? I was thinking of a unit to
> hang off the back of the tank with its own pump or run the return half
> of the water from the 350 that goes out the nozzle and not the
> bio-wheels through it. I'm thinking that 25 watts is a fair size to use
> with a flow rate in the high 200s to mid 300s GPH...

Any "fish only" tank with live rock and small bio-load should be
treated as far as filtration goes as a reef tank. This means that
the majority of water filtration should be done in the live rock...
You can use mechanical filters like you have mentioned but
you need to treat them as mechanical filters only, and do not let
them build up organic gunk there because this turns into a nitrates
factory... Any such filter should be cleaned several times a week
to remove all organic waste caught in the filter...

Processing of ammonia and nitrites will be done in the live rock.
To help with the amount of organic compounds dissolved in water
befoer they need to be break out to nitrates in the live rock you
can use skimmer. Skimmer removes proteins from water BEFORE
bacteria gets to them and converts them into phosphates/nitrates.

Also, opinions about using UV sterilizers in aquariums are divided
and my opinion is: it is not needed. Fish are pretty hardy when
taken good care for, well fed and not stressed and they can
defend themselves from many diseases making UV useless.
Even if you do not have corals and strong lights try to benefit
from "reef-like" enviroment in your tank: a lot of live rock will
host a large population of beneficial worms, snails, crustaceans
which in turn help managing waste created by fish, like in the ocean.
UV lamp in a natural aproach to a reef tank is simply a waste of money.

This is an advice from the reef tank owner point of view...
If you want to know more from a fish-only setup owners perspective
you might want to visit another newsgroup dedicated to
non-reef setups: news:rec.aquaria.marine.misc

Good luck!

[carlrs]

>Pszemol wrote:

>I have a 75G fish only sal****er tank that if I had to guess has about
>30 pound of live rock. Right now its on a really light bio-load with
>two Marineland filters: Emperor 400 and a canister 350. What size and
>brand/type of UV sterlizer should I get? I was thinking of a unit to
>hang off the back of the tank with its own pump or run the return half
>of the water from the 350 that goes out the nozzle and not the
>bio-wheels through it. I'm thinking that 25 watts is a fair size to use
>with a flow rate in the high 200s to mid 300s GPH...

I beleive UVs are an essential part of Marine fish and Reef keeping, in
fact in our service route, we will not accept a contract for marine
maintenance without a UV sterilizer. The above points are ALL valid,
but you have to remember that an aquarium is not or will not be the
ocean. IT IS a closed system. Via Aqua makes a skimmer/ UV combination
that is excellent for your size aquarium. Also contact time is
important, not wattage. I have been building a custom 15 watt UV for
years (that my customers swear by) that will work well with a Magnum or
as a hang on the back application. One point is, unless you have CLEAN
metal halide lights, with nothing between them and your water, you are
not duplicating the ocean.
I have a blog about UV sterilizers that go into depth about how and why
they work.
http://aquariumuvsterilizer.blogspot.com/

Carl
http://americanaquariumproducts.com/15WattUVSterilizer.html
http://americanaquariumproducts.com/ViaAquaMultiSkimmer.html

[Pszemol]

"carlrs" > wrote in message oups.com...
> I beleive UVs are an essential part of Marine fish and Reef keeping,
> in fact in our service route, we will not accept a contract for marine
> maintenance without a UV sterilizer. The above points are ALL valid,
> but you have to remember that an aquarium is not or will not be the
> ocean. IT IS a closed system.

And why do we need UV sterilizer ?
Why would I want to *sterilize* my water in the tank ?

I want the water in my system to be as live as possible!
I am NOT interested in killing planktonic animals or algae
in the water column. Opposit is true: I want to encourage
the growth of planktonic life forms in my tank because they
become food items for corals, fish, filter-feeding invertebrates
like sponges, feather dusters, clams, sea cucumbers, etc.

> One point is, unless you have CLEAN metal halide lights, with nothing
> between them and your water, you are not duplicating the ocean.

There are thousands of reef tanks out there without UV sterilizers.
They are doing perfectly fine... Why would they need one ?

> I have a blog about UV sterilizers that go into depth about
> how and why they work.

The question is "why do you want to make your reef tank water dead?"

[carlrs]

>Pszemol wrote:

>I want the water in my system to be as live as possible!
>I am NOT interested in killing planktonic animals or algae
>in the water column. Opposit is true: I want to encourage
>the growth of planktonic life forms in my tank because they
>become food items for corals, fish, filter-feeding invertebrates
>like sponges, feather dusters, clams, sea cucumbers, etc.

Prpoerly managed, a UV sterilizer does not render a marine tank
sterile. A timer is often used, also most of these life forms are not
passed thru the sterilizer in a healty aquarium. Again. a metal halide
also performs some sterilization, and is considered neccesary by many
to duplicate the ocean as close as possible.

>There are thousands of reef tanks out there without UV sterilizers.
>They are doing perfectly fine... Why would they need one ?

Good point, you can have a sucessful reef aquarium without one
(although I question the outcome of a fish aquarium), but the
sterilizer helps improve the odds of a new reef tank in particular. As
the reef aquarium ages, the time the sterilizer is on is less.

Carl
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/

[Pszemol]

"carlrs" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Prpoerly managed, a UV sterilizer does not render a marine tank
> sterile. A timer is often used, also most of these life forms are not
> passed thru the sterilizer in a healty aquarium.

How can you prevent "these life forms" passing through your sterilizer?

How can UV sterilizer work in a selective way killing only disease
causing inverts/bacteria and not kill beneficial ones?

How can you justify UV sterilizer on a timer, and then expect it will
have any role in disease prevention ?

> Again. a metal halide also performs some sterilization, and is considered
> neccesary by many to duplicate the ocean as close as possible.

This is the first time over so many years in this hobby I hear from you
that people use metal halide lamps to sterilize water in their tanks,
to duplicate the ocean...

Are you 100% sure you know what are you talking about?

Can you quote *anybody* recomending the usage of metal halide
lamps without UV protection filters in marine aquaria? I do not
know any person doing this. All metal halide lamps used over the
marine tanks HAVE UV PROTECTION to block harmfull radiation
type "C" allowing only bands "A" and limited "B" to pass through.
Corals and any other life forms using UV light are tuned to
bands "A" na "B", not to the germicidal band "C". Band "C"
is *very harmfull* and that is why it is used to sterilize water used
in medical purpose or bilogical labs, medical rooms, etc.
That is why UV sterilizers have the bulb enclosed in the not transparent
case - otherwise it would make more harm than good to your own eyes,
skin, plants in the room. The Planet Earth also has UV filter in the
upper atmosphere - you have probably heard of the ozon layer -
this is our protection against killer effects of UV band C radiation.
Yes, most of band A and limited band B UV rays are reaching
the surface of the Earth and travel through water, but it is not band C!

>>There are thousands of reef tanks out there without UV sterilizers.
>>They are doing perfectly fine... Why would they need one ?
>
> Good point, you can have a sucessful reef aquarium without one

Than why do you force your clients to use UV sterilizers ?

> (although I question the outcome of a fish aquarium), but the
> sterilizer helps improve the odds of a new reef tank in particular.
> As the reef aquarium ages, the time the sterilizer is on is less.

Why do you have it at all ? This is not selective device, when it
is on it kills almost ALL LIFE FORMS PASSING THROUGH it
without checking if the animal or algae is beneficial or not...
It is simply not needed especially in a fresh tank, where there
are limited amounts of planktonic forms and you are more
interested in encouraging their growth than in a mature tank
where planktonic organisms are well established already...

If you keep an artificial, sterile fish tank with dead rock and fish only,
than you can use UV sterilizer - if you really believe it helps.
You do not have proper algae nutrition export in place in such
tank so high nitrates and phosphates could cause green water
outbreaks, and then UV lamp can be doing some good...
You would be doing better than you convert such tank to FOWLR.

But in a natural aproach to a FOWLR/REEF tanks, the UV lamp
is simply unnecessary cost you simply waste your money on.

[carlrs]

>Pszemol wrote:
>How can you prevent "these life forms" passing through your sterilizer?
>How can UV sterilizer work in a selective way killing only disease
>causing inverts/bacteria and not kill beneficial ones?
>How can you justify UV sterilizer on a timer, and then expect it will
>have any role in disease prevention ?
>This is the first time over so many years in this hobby I hear from you
>that people use metal halide lamps to sterilize water in their tanks,
>to duplicate the ocean...

>Are you 100% sure you know what are you talking about?

[1]The timer is used to allow certain feeding times
[2]On a new aquaria I recommend continuous operation, especially when
new fauna are added
[3]Yes metal halide only emit A & B uv, and I am not advocating their
use as a sterilizerer, only that UV B DOES have damaging properties to
organic substances.
[4] I have been maintaining sucessfull reef aquariums for 27 years,
with and without UVs, with fauna reproducing.
[5] In the maintenance business, most of my customers overfeed, do not
purchase fauna carefully (I generally provided them with their sealife,
but many couldn't resist other purchases), and in general ran a higher
risk of disease introduction, as they are not experts, like I assume
you are. By running th UV continuously and then later in cycles
corresponding to feeding schedules, I helped minimize disease
introduction
[6] UVs are not a cure all, and in fact do very little to kill multi
cell organisms, and even larger protozoa.
[7] The final half of your statement, although true, was never stated
by me.

Carl

[TheRock]

I think you are both missing 1 important point.
It doesn't sound like buff82...has a protein skimmer
which IS undoubtedly a heck of a lot more important than UV.

Not to mention the fact that canister filters are not meant for marine type
applications.

Chris




"carlrs" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >Pszemol wrote:
>>How can you prevent "these life forms" passing through your sterilizer?
>>How can UV sterilizer work in a selective way killing only disease
>>causing inverts/bacteria and not kill beneficial ones?
>>How can you justify UV sterilizer on a timer, and then expect it will
>>have any role in disease prevention ?
>>This is the first time over so many years in this hobby I hear from you
>>that people use metal halide lamps to sterilize water in their tanks,
>>to duplicate the ocean...
>
>>Are you 100% sure you know what are you talking about?
>
> [1]The timer is used to allow certain feeding times
> [2]On a new aquaria I recommend continuous operation, especially when
> new fauna are added
> [3]Yes metal halide only emit A & B uv, and I am not advocating their
> use as a sterilizerer, only that UV B DOES have damaging properties to
> organic substances.
> [4] I have been maintaining sucessfull reef aquariums for 27 years,
> with and without UVs, with fauna reproducing.
> [5] In the maintenance business, most of my customers overfeed, do not
> purchase fauna carefully (I generally provided them with their sealife,
> but many couldn't resist other purchases), and in general ran a higher
> risk of disease introduction, as they are not experts, like I assume
> you are. By running th UV continuously and then later in cycles
> corresponding to feeding schedules, I helped minimize disease
> introduction
> [6] UVs are not a cure all, and in fact do very little to kill multi
> cell organisms, and even larger protozoa.
> [7] The final half of your statement, although true, was never stated
> by me.
>
> Carl
>

[Pszemol]

"TheRock" > wrote in message news:AxZXf.1455$te1.92@trndny03...
> I think you are both missing 1 important point.
> It doesn't sound like buff82...has a protein skimmer
> which IS undoubtedly a heck of a lot more important than UV.

Totally agree, but it was already said in this thread,
so I do not see reason for repeating same thing...

> Not to mention the fact that canister filters
> are not meant for marine type applications.

Marine applications - well, it is a too broad statement.

If you consider a old-fashioned marine FO tank, with
a graveyard of bleached, dead coral skeletons as so
called "decorations", without live rock or undergravel
filter, than the usage of canister filters is needed
the same way as it is needed in freshwater tanks.
Both types of tanks (freshwater with no plants and
marine fish-only, no or very little LiveRock) need
mechanical and biological filtration to cope with
ammonia and nitrites, shortly called nitrification.
Power filters (HOB or canister) are used for this...

[carlrs]

> TheRock wrote:

>I think you are both missing 1 important point.
>It doesn't sound like buff82...has a protein skimmer
>which IS undoubtedly a heck of a lot more important than UV.

>Not to mention the fact that canister filters are not meant for marine type
>applications.

I agree, that is why I mentioned the Multi -filter

Carl

[TheRock]

aaaaaaaaaa
ok


"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "TheRock" > wrote in message
> news:AxZXf.1455$te1.92@trndny03...
>> I think you are both missing 1 important point.
>> It doesn't sound like buff82...has a protein skimmer
>> which IS undoubtedly a heck of a lot more important than UV.
>
> Totally agree, but it was already said in this thread,
> so I do not see reason for repeating same thing...
>
>> Not to mention the fact that canister filters
>> are not meant for marine type applications.
>
> Marine applications - well, it is a too broad statement.
>
> If you consider a old-fashioned marine FO tank, with
> a graveyard of bleached, dead coral skeletons as so
> called "decorations", without live rock or undergravel
> filter, than the usage of canister filters is needed
> the same way as it is needed in freshwater tanks.
> Both types of tanks (freshwater with no plants and
> marine fish-only, no or very little LiveRock) need
> mechanical and biological filtration to cope with
> ammonia and nitrites, shortly called nitrification.
> Power filters (HOB or canister) are used for this...

[George Patterson]

buff82driver wrote:
> I have a 75G fish only sal****er tank that if I had to guess has about
> 30 pound of live rock. Right now its on a really light bio-load with
> two Marineland filters: Emperor 400 and a canister 350. What size and
> brand/type of UV sterlizer should I get? I was thinking of a unit to
> hang off the back of the tank with its own pump or run the return half
> of the water from the 350 that goes out the nozzle and not the
> bio-wheels through it. I'm thinking that 25 watts is a fair size to use
> with a flow rate in the high 200s to mid 300s GPH...

I've kept U/V sterilizers on my tank since 1976. In my experience, they will
slow the rate of parasitical infection, such as ick, but that's about all you
should expect out of one. No matter how you set one up, there will be "dead"
spots in the tank, and the water will never be really sterilized. I'm not sure
it would be a good idea to do so anyway.

Anyway, 25 watts is really heavy artillery for a 75 gallon. I have a 125 gallon
with an 8 watt sterilizer on it. I would be more comfortable with two of them. I
think you wouldn't need more than a 15 watt unit.

Whatever you buy, avoid the "Angstrom" brand. This used to be made by Hawaiian
Marine (and may still be). They make a unit that hangs on the back of the tank.
The plastic housing will corrode and begin to leak within a few years. I've had
two of these units go bad like that; one after about 15 years, but one after
only two. This is what I had - http://tinylink.com/?LDm1aDtXkJ

One thing to check for is the ease with which the bulbs can be changed. They
should be changed about every 6 months. Try to find one where you can change the
bulb without completely disassembling the unit.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[buff82driver]

carlrs wrote:
> > TheRock wrote:
>
> >I think you are both missing 1 important point.
> >It doesn't sound like buff82...has a protein skimmer
> >which IS undoubtedly a heck of a lot more important than UV.
>
> >Not to mention the fact that canister filters are not meant for marine type
> >applications.
>
> I agree, that is why I mentioned the Multi -filter
>
> Carl

I do not have a skimmer and I got those two filters b/c I used to have
huge bio-loads. I used to HAVE to do a major water change every WEEK.
My tank was really over-stocked but I never had a problem with disease
aside from occassionally suffering from ich b/c I did not quarantine
new fish. A skimmer probably would have made life easier but my LFS at
the time said they were a fad. I ended up with a fair number of ich
infested fish from him so go figure. My problem now is cyanobacteria is
out of control but my nitrates barely register. I think it may be my
water is loaded with phosphates. I don't like loading my tank up with
chemicals to kill the cyno b/c then its a mess to clean up and it comes
back within days and I just don't like loading it will toxic
stuff...have you ever looked at what some "medicines" for ich have in
them? Formalin. Turns water green and stains the silicone.

[Boomer]

"that people use metal halide lamps to sterilize water in their tanks,
to duplicate the ocean..."

That is not so at all. I have not heard in 35 years anyone making such a statement.


"All metal halide lamps used over the
: marine tanks HAVE UV PROTECTION "

DE do not, as they have no outer protective shell and not all MH DE units have a glass
protective plate.
--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com



"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "carlrs" > wrote in message
ups.com...
: > Prpoerly managed, a UV sterilizer does not render a marine tank
: > sterile. A timer is often used, also most of these life forms are not
: > passed thru the sterilizer in a healty aquarium.
:
: How can you prevent "these life forms" passing through your sterilizer?
:
: How can UV sterilizer work in a selective way killing only disease
: causing inverts/bacteria and not kill beneficial ones?
:
: How can you justify UV sterilizer on a timer, and then expect it will
: have any role in disease prevention ?
:
: > Again. a metal halide also performs some sterilization, and is considered
: > neccesary by many to duplicate the ocean as close as possible.
:
: This is the first time over so many years in this hobby I hear from you
: that people use metal halide lamps to sterilize water in their tanks,
: to duplicate the ocean...
:
: Are you 100% sure you know what are you talking about?
:
: Can you quote *anybody* recomending the usage of metal halide
: lamps without UV protection filters in marine aquaria? I do not
: know any person doing this. All metal halide lamps used over the
: marine tanks HAVE UV PROTECTION to block harmfull radiation
: type "C" allowing only bands "A" and limited "B" to pass through.
: Corals and any other life forms using UV light are tuned to
: bands "A" na "B", not to the germicidal band "C". Band "C"
: is *very harmfull* and that is why it is used to sterilize water used
: in medical purpose or bilogical labs, medical rooms, etc.
: That is why UV sterilizers have the bulb enclosed in the not transparent
: case - otherwise it would make more harm than good to your own eyes,
: skin, plants in the room. The Planet Earth also has UV filter in the
: upper atmosphere - you have probably heard of the ozon layer -
: this is our protection against killer effects of UV band C radiation.
: Yes, most of band A and limited band B UV rays are reaching
: the surface of the Earth and travel through water, but it is not band C!
:
: >>There are thousands of reef tanks out there without UV sterilizers.
: >>They are doing perfectly fine... Why would they need one ?
: >
: > Good point, you can have a sucessful reef aquarium without one
:
: Than why do you force your clients to use UV sterilizers ?
:
: > (although I question the outcome of a fish aquarium), but the
: > sterilizer helps improve the odds of a new reef tank in particular.
: > As the reef aquarium ages, the time the sterilizer is on is less.
:
: Why do you have it at all ? This is not selective device, when it
: is on it kills almost ALL LIFE FORMS PASSING THROUGH it
: without checking if the animal or algae is beneficial or not...
: It is simply not needed especially in a fresh tank, where there
: are limited amounts of planktonic forms and you are more
: interested in encouraging their growth than in a mature tank
: where planktonic organisms are well established already...
:
: If you keep an artificial, sterile fish tank with dead rock and fish only,
: than you can use UV sterilizer - if you really believe it helps.
: You do not have proper algae nutrition export in place in such
: tank so high nitrates and phosphates could cause green water
: outbreaks, and then UV lamp can be doing some good...
: You would be doing better than you convert such tank to FOWLR.
:
: But in a natural aproach to a FOWLR/REEF tanks, the UV lamp
: is simply unnecessary cost you simply waste your money on.

[Boomer]

"[3]Yes metal halide only emit A & B uv, and I am not advocating their
use as a sterilizerer, only that UV B DOES have damaging properties to
organic substances"

It also adds in oxidizing organic substances, although not as well as ozone and some use
UV for that very purpose, especially if the are worried about ozone potentials hazards.

Enveloped MH are pretty much protected from UV, at least excessive UV, by the
borosilicate envelope bulb ( non- DE). I might add some or many coral can use MH UV.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com



"carlrs" > wrote in message
oups.com...
: >Pszemol wrote:
: >How can you prevent "these life forms" passing through your sterilizer?
: >How can UV sterilizer work in a selective way killing only disease
: >causing inverts/bacteria and not kill beneficial ones?
: >How can you justify UV sterilizer on a timer, and then expect it will
: >have any role in disease prevention ?
: >This is the first time over so many years in this hobby I hear from you
: >that people use metal halide lamps to sterilize water in their tanks,
: >to duplicate the ocean...
:
: >Are you 100% sure you know what are you talking about?
:
: [1]The timer is used to allow certain feeding times
: [2]On a new aquaria I recommend continuous operation, especially when
: new fauna are added
: [3]Yes metal halide only emit A & B uv, and I am not advocating their
: use as a sterilizerer, only that UV B DOES have damaging properties to
: organic substances.
: [4] I have been maintaining sucessfull reef aquariums for 27 years,
: with and without UVs, with fauna reproducing.
: [5] In the maintenance business, most of my customers overfeed, do not
: purchase fauna carefully (I generally provided them with their sealife,
: but many couldn't resist other purchases), and in general ran a higher
: risk of disease introduction, as they are not experts, like I assume
: you are. By running th UV continuously and then later in cycles
: corresponding to feeding schedules, I helped minimize disease
: introduction
: [6] UVs are not a cure all, and in fact do very little to kill multi
: cell organisms, and even larger protozoa.
: [7] The final half of your statement, although true, was never stated
: by me.
:
: Carl
:

[Pszemol]

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> "All metal halide lamps used over the
> : marine tanks HAVE UV PROTECTION "
>
> DE do not, as they have no outer protective shell
> and not all MH DE units have a glass protective plate.

I was talking about lamps, not bulbs. All lamps I saw
had very expensive to replace (!)glass plate. I was not
aware about any lamps sold without this protective plate.
What is the manufacturer/model name of such lamp ?
How safe is to use MH bulbs with no outer splash and UV
protection over a wet environment like a fish tank ?

[buff82driver]

But it would also help out with the cyanobacteria would it not after I
get it cleaned out by rinising it off my live rock and cleaning off the
glass and vacumming the gravel witht the 350? It has a micron filter so
you can do a really good job w/out lossing water to a bunch of buckets.

Jeff

TheRock wrote:
> Ick sucks, but even UV would only control it at a certain stage.
>
> Money still would be better spent on a protein skimmer.
> Skimming is a great way to control nutrients in the water left over from
> feeding, crapping, and all other actions that cause waste.
>
> Good luck with yer tank.
>
>
>
> "buff82driver" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > carlrs wrote:
> >> > TheRock wrote:
> >>
> >> >I think you are both missing 1 important point.
> >> >It doesn't sound like buff82...has a protein skimmer
> >> >which IS undoubtedly a heck of a lot more important than UV.
> >>
> >> >Not to mention the fact that canister filters are not meant for marine
> >> >type
> >> >applications.
> >>
> >> I agree, that is why I mentioned the Multi -filter
> >>
> >> Carl
> >
> > I do not have a skimmer and I got those two filters b/c I used to have
> > huge bio-loads. I used to HAVE to do a major water change every WEEK.
> > My tank was really over-stocked but I never had a problem with disease
> > aside from occassionally suffering from ich b/c I did not quarantine
> > new fish. A skimmer probably would have made life easier but my LFS at
> > the time said they were a fad. I ended up with a fair number of ich
> > infested fish from him so go figure. My problem now is cyanobacteria is
> > out of control but my nitrates barely register. I think it may be my
> > water is loaded with phosphates. I don't like loading my tank up with
> > chemicals to kill the cyno b/c then its a mess to clean up and it comes
> > back within days and I just don't like loading it will toxic
> > stuff...have you ever looked at what some "medicines" for ich have in
> > them? Formalin. Turns water green and stains the silicone.
> >

[Pszemol]

"buff82driver" > wrote in message oups.com...
> But it would also help out with the cyanobacteria would it not after I
> get it cleaned out by rinising it off my live rock and cleaning off the
> glass and vacumming the gravel witht the 350? It has a micron filter so
> you can do a really good job w/out lossing water to a bunch of buckets.

Jeff,
your cyano outbreak means simply your system is OUT OF BALANCE.

Even if the UV Lamp will deal with the symptom, it will not cure
the cause of the problem. The cause of the outbreak is lack of proper
nutrients export.

Remember, in a fish tank, as in any other closed system, what you
put there, stays there, untill you remove it...

You put fish food there and it will accumulate in a form of nitrates
and phosphates until it reaches the alarming levels and tank will crash
due to the cyano outbreak or massive green hair algae infestation.
Correctly designed system has proper ways for nutrients export.

Only one of many methods is the partial water change you mentioned.
Others include skimming, growing algae in a separate container
(algae scrubber), keeping a population of grazers in your tank
(snails, urchins, tangs etc) which acumulate these nutrients and
build their bodies out of them removing them from water column.
(nutrients cause algae blooms but grazers remove algae, etc)
If you cannot keep up with nutrients export doing massive and often
water changes this means that your tank is heavily overstocked
and the UL Lamp will not help you in this problem.

As TheRock suggested before, if you do not have a skimmer
than you would spend your money wiser buying one instead of
the UV lamp.

[buff82driver]

Yeah but I think my problem is phosphates in my tap water that I use to
top-off/water change. I have not tested it...maybe a RO unit would be
the way to go but the fish seem fine with the cyano just as long as I
keep it from covering the live rock. If the phospahtes don't bother the
fish and UV would do the trick I was thinking that would be a more
pratical way to go. I don't get enough rain here to collect and using
bottled water would be very expensive. Isn't there a product you can
put in your sump that absorbs phosphates? Is it any good?

Pszemol wrote:
> "buff82driver" > wrote in message oups.com...
> > But it would also help out with the cyanobacteria would it not after I
> > get it cleaned out by rinising it off my live rock and cleaning off the
> > glass and vacumming the gravel witht the 350? It has a micron filter so
> > you can do a really good job w/out lossing water to a bunch of buckets.
>
> Jeff,
> your cyano outbreak means simply your system is OUT OF BALANCE.
>
> Even if the UV Lamp will deal with the symptom, it will not cure
> the cause of the problem. The cause of the outbreak is lack of proper
> nutrients export.
>
> Remember, in a fish tank, as in any other closed system, what you
> put there, stays there, untill you remove it...
>
> You put fish food there and it will accumulate in a form of nitrates
> and phosphates until it reaches the alarming levels and tank will crash
> due to the cyano outbreak or massive green hair algae infestation.
> Correctly designed system has proper ways for nutrients export.
>
> Only one of many methods is the partial water change you mentioned.
> Others include skimming, growing algae in a separate container
> (algae scrubber), keeping a population of grazers in your tank
> (snails, urchins, tangs etc) which acumulate these nutrients and
> build their bodies out of them removing them from water column.
> (nutrients cause algae blooms but grazers remove algae, etc)
> If you cannot keep up with nutrients export doing massive and often
> water changes this means that your tank is heavily overstocked
> and the UL Lamp will not help you in this problem.
>
> As TheRock suggested before, if you do not have a skimmer
> than you would spend your money wiser buying one instead of
> the UV lamp.

[Wayne Sallee]

carlrs wrote on 4/2/2006 7:49 PM:

> [6] UVs are not a cure all, and in fact do very little to kill multi
> cell organisms, and even larger protozoa.

And so therefore you think that it won't hurt the good
stuff in the water, but kill the bad stuff. Looking at a
uv light won't kill you, but it sure isn't good for you.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Pszemol]

"buff82driver" > wrote in message oups.com...
> Yeah but I think my problem is phosphates in my tap water that I use to
> top-off/water change. I have not tested it...maybe a RO unit would be
> the way to go but the fish seem fine with the cyano just as long as I
> keep it from covering the live rock. If the phospahtes don't bother the
> fish and UV would do the trick I was thinking that would be a more
> pratical way to go. I don't get enough rain here to collect and using
> bottled water would be very expensive. Isn't there a product you can
> put in your sump that absorbs phosphates? Is it any good?

Yes, there are phosphate sponges. You can remove phosphate from
the water this way and the cyano will die. Died cyano release their
accumulated phosphates and the water will be nutrients rich again...
So you need to be carefull using these chemicals and measuring phosphates.

Cyanobacteria can absorb nitrogen in free form so they do not need
nitrates. All they need is phosphate rich water...
All green algae you might see requires nitrogen to build chlorophyl.

You are drifting away from the "reef" topic this group is dedicated to...
Maybe you should visit news:rec.aquaria.marine.misc and ask experts
keeping FO and FOWLR setups how do they manage to keep their
systems stable. I have always worked with reef setups so I do not
feel competent to help you with your FO system.

[carlrs]

>Wayne Sallee wrote

>And so therefore you think that it won't hurt the good
>stuff in the water, but kill the bad stuff. Looking at a
>uv light won't kill you, but it sure isn't good for you.

That is Why uvc is sheilded in a unit, but you also do not want stare
at uvb lamps either. I wrote a blog based on my experience about uv
radiation, it gives the different wave lengths required for germacidal
sterilization. UVC lamps work best at the upper end of the uvc spectrum
(265 NM).
Anyway, back to the original subject; I would recommend a RO unit for
buff82driver, and to take all the advice given here and utilize it for
his application. Also the Skimmer is a puchase I would recommend. If
you do go with a UV also, a 5 to 15 watt unit is all you need.

Carl
http://aquariumuvsterilizer.blogspot.com/

[TheRock]

Absolutely !
Seachem PhosGuard
Kent Power Phos Max

UV as far as I know does nothing for Cyano problems.
Go here and learn how to control Cyanobacteria/Blue green algae.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm

Cyano control is a lesson in it's own.
It's taken me 3 years to understand and I still get a touch of it every now
and then.

Damn 2 million year old bacteria !




"buff82driver" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Yeah but I think my problem is phosphates in my tap water that I use to
> top-off/water change. I have not tested it...maybe a RO unit would be
> the way to go but the fish seem fine with the cyano just as long as I
> keep it from covering the live rock. If the phospahtes don't bother the
> fish and UV would do the trick I was thinking that would be a more
> pratical way to go. I don't get enough rain here to collect and using
> bottled water would be very expensive. Isn't there a product you can
> put in your sump that absorbs phosphates? Is it any good?
>
> Pszemol wrote:
>> "buff82driver" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > But it would also help out with the cyanobacteria would it not after I
>> > get it cleaned out by rinising it off my live rock and cleaning off the
>> > glass and vacumming the gravel witht the 350? It has a micron filter so
>> > you can do a really good job w/out lossing water to a bunch of buckets.
>>
>> Jeff,
>> your cyano outbreak means simply your system is OUT OF BALANCE.
>>
>> Even if the UV Lamp will deal with the symptom, it will not cure
>> the cause of the problem. The cause of the outbreak is lack of proper
>> nutrients export.
>>
>> Remember, in a fish tank, as in any other closed system, what you
>> put there, stays there, untill you remove it...
>>
>> You put fish food there and it will accumulate in a form of nitrates
>> and phosphates until it reaches the alarming levels and tank will crash
>> due to the cyano outbreak or massive green hair algae infestation.
>> Correctly designed system has proper ways for nutrients export.
>>
>> Only one of many methods is the partial water change you mentioned.
>> Others include skimming, growing algae in a separate container
>> (algae scrubber), keeping a population of grazers in your tank
>> (snails, urchins, tangs etc) which acumulate these nutrients and
>> build their bodies out of them removing them from water column.
>> (nutrients cause algae blooms but grazers remove algae, etc)
>> If you cannot keep up with nutrients export doing massive and often
>> water changes this means that your tank is heavily overstocked
>> and the UL Lamp will not help you in this problem.
>>
>> As TheRock suggested before, if you do not have a skimmer
>> than you would spend your money wiser buying one instead of
>> the UV lamp.
>

[carlrs]

I do know of a product for Cyano bacteria, I looked on the web for a
site that carries it; The name of the product is "Red Slime Remover"
http://www.northcoastmarines.com/slime_remover.htm

Carl

[Pszemol]

"carlrs" > wrote in message oups.com...
> I do know of a product for Cyano bacteria, I looked on the web for a
> site that carries it; The name of the product is "Red Slime Remover"
> http://www.northcoastmarines.com/slime_remover.htm

This product, again, deals with the symptom, not the cause.
Until you fix your cause for high phosphates, cyano will return
no matter what you do to kill you every time. It is in the air,
in the food, in the animals you bring from the store etc...

[carlrs]

I will add (again) using an RO unit will reduce the phosphates added
to your aquarium from water changes, but also proper lighting is also
important in prevention. I should have added when I looked up this
product, that I have only used it a couple of times, as I agree that
prevention is important thru proper water management. I rarely have had
outbreaks of cyano by keeping a balanced and well lighted aquarium.
Carl

[TheRock]

Anti-Biotic ?
No good, will come back stronger.
Shhhhhh, but don't tell anyone, I've used it once : )

"carlrs" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I do know of a product for Cyano bacteria, I looked on the web for a
> site that carries it; The name of the product is "Red Slime Remover"
> http://www.northcoastmarines.com/slime_remover.htm
>
> Carl
>

[buff82driver]

Thanks for all the advice. I think I'll go with sponges to remove the
phosphates instead of a RO unit. I have not priced them but I bet it
would take a lot of sponges to equal the cost of RO set-up. My lighting
is nowhere near reef keeping standards but I just have fish. Thanks
again for the advice.

[TheRock]

go here
http://www.bigalsonline.com/search/?type=catalog&method=all&collection=sitebuilder%2Fcatalog3-1&keywords1=phosphate

Can you afford $12 : )

They actually make Phos Reactors...if it's real bad you may want to try one
of these.
http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=22079;category_id=2887
http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=30279;category_id=2887

"buff82driver" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Thanks for all the advice. I think I'll go with sponges to remove the
> phosphates instead of a RO unit. I have not priced them but I bet it
> would take a lot of sponges to equal the cost of RO set-up. My lighting
> is nowhere near reef keeping standards but I just have fish. Thanks
> again for the advice.
>

[Pszemol]

"buff82driver" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Thanks for all the advice. I think I'll go with sponges to remove the
> phosphates instead of a RO unit. I have not priced them but I bet it
> would take a lot of sponges to equal the cost of RO set-up. My lighting
> is nowhere near reef keeping standards but I just have fish. Thanks
> again for the advice.

You can buy a decent RO unit for the price of ~$100.
Phosphate sponges unfortunatelly release some amounts of
aluminium or iron to the water - probably not a big issue in your
tank, since you do not have corals, but still...
RO unit will remove almost total phosphates from tap water
without releasing anything harmfull to the water...
It does not remove phosphates which were created by fish
activity in the tank itself.

[Boomer]

"Safe"

I guess that all depend on ones point of view PZ. Depth does play a roll and the actual UV
output. There have been a few articles on UV and its effects. Most will recommend that
one gets a protective UV shield or check on the one that came with the unit, if there
seems to be a UV problem.. Some of the plates, glass or plastic with DE bulbs, are really
not protective and act just a splash guards or light diffusers, which does not mean UV
protection in all cases. Some (reefers )use such lamps with no plate at all. I don not
have any names right of hand.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com



"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
...
: > "All metal halide lamps used over the
: > : marine tanks HAVE UV PROTECTION "
: >
: > DE do not, as they have no outer protective shell
: > and not all MH DE units have a glass protective plate.
:
: I was talking about lamps, not bulbs. All lamps I saw
: had very expensive to replace (!)glass plate. I was not
: aware about any lamps sold without this protective plate.
: What is the manufacturer/model name of such lamp ?
: How safe is to use MH bulbs with no outer splash and UV
: protection over a wet environment like a fish tank ?

[Boomer]

These are not good products for reef tank as they are activated alumina, which releases
Aluminum which is toxic and effects some corals. If one is looking for a phos remover you
are better off with ferric oxide hydroxides, which is better, more effective and has no
side effects like alumina

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com



"TheRock" > wrote in message news:0BhYf.1734$v9.54@trndny01...
: Absolutely !
: Seachem PhosGuard
: Kent Power Phos Max
:
: UV as far as I know does nothing for Cyano problems.
: Go here and learn how to control Cyanobacteria/Blue green algae.
: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm
:
: Cyano control is a lesson in it's own.
: It's taken me 3 years to understand and I still get a touch of it every now
: and then.
:
: Damn 2 million year old bacteria !
:
:
:
:
: "buff82driver" > wrote in message
: oups.com...
: > Yeah but I think my problem is phosphates in my tap water that I use to
: > top-off/water change. I have not tested it...maybe a RO unit would be
: > the way to go but the fish seem fine with the cyano just as long as I
: > keep it from covering the live rock. If the phospahtes don't bother the
: > fish and UV would do the trick I was thinking that would be a more
: > pratical way to go. I don't get enough rain here to collect and using
: > bottled water would be very expensive. Isn't there a product you can
: > put in your sump that absorbs phosphates? Is it any good?
: >
: > Pszemol wrote:
: >> "buff82driver" > wrote in message
: >> oups.com...
: >> > But it would also help out with the cyanobacteria would it not after I
: >> > get it cleaned out by rinising it off my live rock and cleaning off the
: >> > glass and vacumming the gravel witht the 350? It has a micron filter so
: >> > you can do a really good job w/out lossing water to a bunch of buckets.
: >>
: >> Jeff,
: >> your cyano outbreak means simply your system is OUT OF BALANCE.
: >>
: >> Even if the UV Lamp will deal with the symptom, it will not cure
: >> the cause of the problem. The cause of the outbreak is lack of proper
: >> nutrients export.
: >>
: >> Remember, in a fish tank, as in any other closed system, what you
: >> put there, stays there, untill you remove it...
: >>
: >> You put fish food there and it will accumulate in a form of nitrates
: >> and phosphates until it reaches the alarming levels and tank will crash
: >> due to the cyano outbreak or massive green hair algae infestation.
: >> Correctly designed system has proper ways for nutrients export.
: >>
: >> Only one of many methods is the partial water change you mentioned.
: >> Others include skimming, growing algae in a separate container
: >> (algae scrubber), keeping a population of grazers in your tank
: >> (snails, urchins, tangs etc) which acumulate these nutrients and
: >> build their bodies out of them removing them from water column.
: >> (nutrients cause algae blooms but grazers remove algae, etc)
: >> If you cannot keep up with nutrients export doing massive and often
: >> water changes this means that your tank is heavily overstocked
: >> and the UL Lamp will not help you in this problem.
: >>
: >> As TheRock suggested before, if you do not have a skimmer
: >> than you would spend your money wiser buying one instead of
: >> the UV lamp.
: >
:
:

[TheRock]

Interesting...avoid the white kind eh ?
Buy RowaPhos, Phosban or Salifert ?
Thanks for the info

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> These are not good products for reef tank as they are activated alumina,
> which releases
> Aluminum which is toxic and effects some corals. If one is looking for a
> phos remover you
> are better off with ferric oxide hydroxides, which is better, more
> effective and has no
> side effects like alumina
>
> --
> Boomer
>
> If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
>
> Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
> Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
>
> Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
> http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
>
> Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
> http://www.coralrealm.com
>
>
>
> "TheRock" > wrote in message
> news:0BhYf.1734$v9.54@trndny01...
> : Absolutely !
> : Seachem PhosGuard
> : Kent Power Phos Max
> :
> : UV as far as I know does nothing for Cyano problems.
> : Go here and learn how to control Cyanobacteria/Blue green algae.
> : http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm
> :
> : Cyano control is a lesson in it's own.
> : It's taken me 3 years to understand and I still get a touch of it every
> now
> : and then.
> :
> : Damn 2 million year old bacteria !
> :
> :
> :
> :
> : "buff82driver" > wrote in message
> : oups.com...
> : > Yeah but I think my problem is phosphates in my tap water that I use
> to
> : > top-off/water change. I have not tested it...maybe a RO unit would be
> : > the way to go but the fish seem fine with the cyano just as long as I
> : > keep it from covering the live rock. If the phospahtes don't bother
> the
> : > fish and UV would do the trick I was thinking that would be a more
> : > pratical way to go. I don't get enough rain here to collect and using
> : > bottled water would be very expensive. Isn't there a product you can
> : > put in your sump that absorbs phosphates? Is it any good?
> : >
> : > Pszemol wrote:
> : >> "buff82driver" > wrote in message
> : >> oups.com...
> : >> > But it would also help out with the cyanobacteria would it not
> after I
> : >> > get it cleaned out by rinising it off my live rock and cleaning off
> the
> : >> > glass and vacumming the gravel witht the 350? It has a micron
> filter so
> : >> > you can do a really good job w/out lossing water to a bunch of
> buckets.
> : >>
> : >> Jeff,
> : >> your cyano outbreak means simply your system is OUT OF BALANCE.
> : >>
> : >> Even if the UV Lamp will deal with the symptom, it will not cure
> : >> the cause of the problem. The cause of the outbreak is lack of proper
> : >> nutrients export.
> : >>
> : >> Remember, in a fish tank, as in any other closed system, what you
> : >> put there, stays there, untill you remove it...
> : >>
> : >> You put fish food there and it will accumulate in a form of nitrates
> : >> and phosphates until it reaches the alarming levels and tank will
> crash
> : >> due to the cyano outbreak or massive green hair algae infestation.
> : >> Correctly designed system has proper ways for nutrients export.
> : >>
> : >> Only one of many methods is the partial water change you mentioned.
> : >> Others include skimming, growing algae in a separate container
> : >> (algae scrubber), keeping a population of grazers in your tank
> : >> (snails, urchins, tangs etc) which acumulate these nutrients and
> : >> build their bodies out of them removing them from water column.
> : >> (nutrients cause algae blooms but grazers remove algae, etc)
> : >> If you cannot keep up with nutrients export doing massive and often
> : >> water changes this means that your tank is heavily overstocked
> : >> and the UL Lamp will not help you in this problem.
> : >>
> : >> As TheRock suggested before, if you do not have a skimmer
> : >> than you would spend your money wiser buying one instead of
> : >> the UV lamp.
> : >
> :
> :
>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Boomer wrote on 4/4/2006 6:20 PM:
> Some (reefers )use such lamps with no plate at all. I don not
> have any names right of hand.
>

I have two 175 watt mh lights over a 120 gallon fresh
water tank, without using any shields, though I don't
recomend that people do this. But I find no harmfull
effects of uv light there.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Wayne Sallee]

Personaly I would rather use aluminum than iron. Aluminum
hydroxide is more soluble than aluminum metal, and can
bother the corals if you use too much. I have experimented
with aluminum metal in a reef tank, and have found no
toxic effects from it.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Boomer wrote on 4/4/2006 6:28 PM:
> These are not good products for reef tank as they are activated alumina, which releases
> Aluminum which is toxic and effects some corals. If one is looking for a phos remover you
> are better off with ferric oxide hydroxides, which is better, more effective and has no
> side effects like alumina
>

[Wayne Sallee]

The reason that I would prefer aluminum over iron, is that
iron can encorage algae groth, though I have also
experimented with adding iron wire to the tank to slowly
disolve iron in the water, but ususaly phosphate removers
are being used to reduce algae, and so adding iron does
not seem like the best way to do it, in my oppinion.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 4/4/2006 9:42 PM:
> Personaly I would rather use aluminum than iron. Aluminum hydroxide is
> more soluble than aluminum metal, and can bother the corals if you use
> too much. I have experimented with aluminum metal in a reef tank, and
> have found no toxic effects from it.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Boomer wrote on 4/4/2006 6:28 PM:
>> These are not good products for reef tank as they are activated
>> alumina, which releases Aluminum which is toxic and effects some
>> corals. If one is looking for a phos remover you are better off with
>> ferric oxide hydroxides, which is better, more effective and has no
>> side effects like alumina
>>

[TheRock]

I think we can all agree that high Phosphate is worse than the maybe effects
of aluminum or iron.
Phosphates kill.

Also FYI on the label for Kent Marines Phosphate sponge it says the
following:
"This product will NOT release soluble aluminum compounds into your
aquarium"
So I guess that mans no alumina ?

Speaking of Iron, I just started dosing it.
Heard it's good for the chaetomorpha in the refugium.

Chris
www.I_dont_own_a_pet_store.com
If You See Me Running hell must have frozen over.



"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> The reason that I would prefer aluminum over iron, is that iron can
> encorage algae groth, though I have also experimented with adding iron
> wire to the tank to slowly disolve iron in the water, but ususaly
> phosphate removers are being used to reduce algae, and so adding iron does
> not seem like the best way to do it, in my oppinion.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Wayne Sallee wrote on 4/4/2006 9:42 PM:
>> Personaly I would rather use aluminum than iron. Aluminum hydroxide is
>> more soluble than aluminum metal, and can bother the corals if you use
>> too much. I have experimented with aluminum metal in a reef tank, and
>> have found no toxic effects from it.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> Boomer wrote on 4/4/2006 6:28 PM:
>>> These are not good products for reef tank as they are activated alumina,
>>> which releases Aluminum which is toxic and effects some corals. If one
>>> is looking for a phos remover you are better off with ferric oxide
>>> hydroxides, which is better, more effective and has no side effects like
>>> alumina
>>>

[Wayne Sallee]

Yea, all your algaes, including coraline algae take up iron.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



TheRock wrote on 4/4/2006 10:35 PM:
> I think we can all agree that high Phosphate is worse than the maybe effects
> of aluminum or iron.
> Phosphates kill.
>
> Also FYI on the label for Kent Marines Phosphate sponge it says the
> following:
> "This product will NOT release soluble aluminum compounds into your
> aquarium"
> So I guess that mans no alumina ?
>
> Speaking of Iron, I just started dosing it.
> Heard it's good for the chaetomorpha in the refugium.
>
> Chris
> www.I_dont_own_a_pet_store.com
> If You See Me Running hell must have frozen over.
>
>
>
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The reason that I would prefer aluminum over iron, is that iron can
>> encorage algae groth, though I have also experimented with adding iron
>> wire to the tank to slowly disolve iron in the water, but ususaly
>> phosphate removers are being used to reduce algae, and so adding iron does
>> not seem like the best way to do it, in my oppinion.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> Wayne Sallee wrote on 4/4/2006 9:42 PM:
>>> Personaly I would rather use aluminum than iron. Aluminum hydroxide is
>>> more soluble than aluminum metal, and can bother the corals if you use
>>> too much. I have experimented with aluminum metal in a reef tank, and
>>> have found no toxic effects from it.
>>>
>>> Wayne Sallee
>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Boomer wrote on 4/4/2006 6:28 PM:
>>>> These are not good products for reef tank as they are activated alumina,
>>>> which releases Aluminum which is toxic and effects some corals. If one
>>>> is looking for a phos remover you are better off with ferric oxide
>>>> hydroxides, which is better, more effective and has no side effects like
>>>> alumina
>>>>
>
>

[Pszemol]

"TheRock" > wrote in message news:T1GYf.4185$lz3.2298@trndny05...
> I think we can all agree that high Phosphate is worse than
> the maybe effects of aluminum or iron.

These are not maybe effects.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2003/chem.htm

> Phosphates kill.

Who does it kill ? And how does it do it?

> Also FYI on the label for Kent Marines Phosphate sponge it says the
> following:
> "This product will NOT release soluble aluminum compounds into your
> aquarium"
> So I guess that mans no alumina ?

When will you learn not to trust everything which is written
on the label? ;-) It *will* release enough to cause problems...

> Speaking of Iron, I just started dosing it.
> Heard it's good for the chaetomorpha in the refugium.

Do you know how much of iron you currently have ?
Do you know you have not enough ?
Do you know how much to dose to not overdose ?

[TheRock]

OK you got me...I always though through the infinite wisdom
of local fish shop guy that PO4 kills...just aids nasty algae and Cyano...
Hey you learned me something today. Thanks !

I've been known to believe things I read on the internet as well : )

My Iron is barley detectable .08 mg/L to .1 mg/L
What is the range for marine ?
I see on the Sea Chem test kit that anything over .5mg/L is toxic.

Chris




"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "TheRock" > wrote in message
> news:T1GYf.4185$lz3.2298@trndny05...
>> I think we can all agree that high Phosphate is worse than
>> the maybe effects of aluminum or iron.
>
> These are not maybe effects.
> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2003/chem.htm
>
>> Phosphates kill.
>
> Who does it kill ? And how does it do it?
>
>> Also FYI on the label for Kent Marines Phosphate sponge it says the
>> following:
>> "This product will NOT release soluble aluminum compounds into your
>> aquarium"
>> So I guess that mans no alumina ?
>
> When will you learn not to trust everything which is written
> on the label? ;-) It *will* release enough to cause problems...
>
>> Speaking of Iron, I just started dosing it.
>> Heard it's good for the chaetomorpha in the refugium.
>
> Do you know how much of iron you currently have ?


> Do you know you have not enough ?
> Do you know how much to dose to not overdose ?

[Pszemol]

"TheRock" > wrote in message news:9QOYf.1169$jf7.1162@trndny08...
> OK you got me...I always though through the infinite wisdom
> of local fish shop guy that PO4 kills...just aids nasty algae and Cyano...
> Hey you learned me something today. Thanks !

It might kill but not directly. If high levels of phosphates
cause algal/cyano outbreaks, and they smother corals, live
rock above the normal state than yes, things start to die...
But phosphates directly are not really a big issue.

> I've been known to believe things I read on the internet as well : )

It all depends what is somebodys agenda behind what is written.
The guys designing label on the phosphate removal products
are interested in selling the maximum amounts of their product.
This is quite obvious.

[Boomer]

Thanks for posting that PZ now I don't have to.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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http://www.coralrealm.com



"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "TheRock" > wrote in message news:T1GYf.4185$lz3.2298@trndny05...
: > I think we can all agree that high Phosphate is worse than
: > the maybe effects of aluminum or iron.
:
: These are not maybe effects.
: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2003/chem.htm
:
: > Phosphates kill.
:
: Who does it kill ? And how does it do it?
:
: > Also FYI on the label for Kent Marines Phosphate sponge it says the
: > following:
: > "This product will NOT release soluble aluminum compounds into your
: > aquarium"
: > So I guess that mans no alumina ?
:
: When will you learn not to trust everything which is written
: on the label? ;-) It *will* release enough to cause problems...
:
: > Speaking of Iron, I just started dosing it.
: > Heard it's good for the chaetomorpha in the refugium.
:
: Do you know how much of iron you currently have ?
: Do you know you have not enough ?
: Do you know how much to dose to not overdose ?

[Boomer]

It is not Aluminum Hydroxide Al(OH)3, but Aluminum Oxide Al2O3, which is like comparing
apples and oranges. Alumina is what most ceramics are and some knife sharpeners and the
arch tube in High Pressure Sodium lamps. It has very little solubility. See the post by
PZ. Most reefers have much better sucess with iron based removers than any othe PO4
remover to inlcude after effects. They are pretty much the PO4 remover of choice.

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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http://www.coralrealm.com



"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
: Personaly I would rather use aluminum than iron. Aluminum
: hydroxide is more soluble than aluminum metal, and can
: bother the corals if you use too much. I have experimented
: with aluminum metal in a reef tank, and have found no
: toxic effects from it.
:
: Wayne Sallee
: Wayne's Pets
:
:
:
: Boomer wrote on 4/4/2006 6:28 PM:
: > These are not good products for reef tank as they are activated alumina, which
releases
: > Aluminum which is toxic and effects some corals. If one is looking for a phos remover
you
: > are better off with ferric oxide hydroxides, which is better, more effective and has
no
: > side effects like alumina
: >

[Pszemol]

"Boomer" > wrote in message ...
> Thanks for posting that PZ now I don't have to.

Sure, no problem :-)

p.s. if you really have to shorten my nickname, please
throw an extra letter there, and make it at least "psz" :-)
Thanks!

[Boomer]

Wayne are these DE's tubes or mogul based bulbs ?

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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http://www.coralrealm.com



"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
:
:
: Boomer wrote on 4/4/2006 6:20 PM:
: > Some (reefers )use such lamps with no plate at all. I don not
: > have any names right of hand.
: >
:
: I have two 175 watt mh lights over a 120 gallon fresh
: water tank, without using any shields, though I don't
: recomend that people do this. But I find no harmfull
: effects of uv light there.
:
: Wayne Sallee
: Wayne's Pets
:

[Boomer]

OK Psz..... LOL

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com



"Pszemol" > wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" > wrote in message ...
: > Thanks for posting that PZ now I don't have to.
:
: Sure, no problem :-)
:
: p.s. if you really have to shorten my nickname, please
: throw an extra letter there, and make it at least "psz" :-)
: Thanks!

[Boomer]

Yes :-)

--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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http://www.coralrealm.com



"TheRock" > wrote in message news:8PEYf.2150$v9.645@trndny01...
: Interesting...avoid the white kind eh ?
: Buy RowaPhos, Phosban or Salifert ?
: Thanks for the info
:
: "Boomer" > wrote in message
: ...
: > These are not good products for reef tank as they are activated alumina,
: > which releases
: > Aluminum which is toxic and effects some corals. If one is looking for a
: > phos remover you
: > are better off with ferric oxide hydroxides, which is better, more
: > effective and has no
: > side effects like alumina
: >
: > --
: > Boomer
: >
: > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
: >
: > Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
: > Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
: >
: > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
: > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
: >
: > Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
: > http://www.coralrealm.com
: >
: >
: >
: > "TheRock" > wrote in message
: > news:0BhYf.1734$v9.54@trndny01...
: > : Absolutely !
: > : Seachem PhosGuard
: > : Kent Power Phos Max
: > :
: > : UV as far as I know does nothing for Cyano problems.
: > : Go here and learn how to control Cyanobacteria/Blue green algae.
: > : http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm
: > :
: > : Cyano control is a lesson in it's own.
: > : It's taken me 3 years to understand and I still get a touch of it every
: > now
: > : and then.
: > :
: > : Damn 2 million year old bacteria !
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : "buff82driver" > wrote in message
: > : oups.com...
: > : > Yeah but I think my problem is phosphates in my tap water that I use
: > to
: > : > top-off/water change. I have not tested it...maybe a RO unit would be
: > : > the way to go but the fish seem fine with the cyano just as long as I
: > : > keep it from covering the live rock. If the phospahtes don't bother
: > the
: > : > fish and UV would do the trick I was thinking that would be a more
: > : > pratical way to go. I don't get enough rain here to collect and using
: > : > bottled water would be very expensive. Isn't there a product you can
: > : > put in your sump that absorbs phosphates? Is it any good?
: > : >
: > : > Pszemol wrote:
: > : >> "buff82driver" > wrote in message
: > : >> oups.com...
: > : >> > But it would also help out with the cyanobacteria would it not
: > after I
: > : >> > get it cleaned out by rinising it off my live rock and cleaning off
: > the
: > : >> > glass and vacumming the gravel witht the 350? It has a micron
: > filter so
: > : >> > you can do a really good job w/out lossing water to a bunch of
: > buckets.
: > : >>
: > : >> Jeff,
: > : >> your cyano outbreak means simply your system is OUT OF BALANCE.
: > : >>
: > : >> Even if the UV Lamp will deal with the symptom, it will not cure
: > : >> the cause of the problem. The cause of the outbreak is lack of proper
: > : >> nutrients export.
: > : >>
: > : >> Remember, in a fish tank, as in any other closed system, what you
: > : >> put there, stays there, untill you remove it...
: > : >>
: > : >> You put fish food there and it will accumulate in a form of nitrates
: > : >> and phosphates until it reaches the alarming levels and tank will
: > crash
: > : >> due to the cyano outbreak or massive green hair algae infestation.
: > : >> Correctly designed system has proper ways for nutrients export.
: > : >>
: > : >> Only one of many methods is the partial water change you mentioned.
: > : >> Others include skimming, growing algae in a separate container
: > : >> (algae scrubber), keeping a population of grazers in your tank
: > : >> (snails, urchins, tangs etc) which acumulate these nutrients and
: > : >> build their bodies out of them removing them from water column.
: > : >> (nutrients cause algae blooms but grazers remove algae, etc)
: > : >> If you cannot keep up with nutrients export doing massive and often
: > : >> water changes this means that your tank is heavily overstocked
: > : >> and the UL Lamp will not help you in this problem.
: > : >>
: > : >> As TheRock suggested before, if you do not have a skimmer
: > : >> than you would spend your money wiser buying one instead of
: > : >> the UV lamp.
: > : >
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
:
:

[Wayne Sallee]

There is also one other thing about phosphate killing, and
that is high levels of phosphate will prevent the coral
from growing it's skeleton, and it will eventualy detach
from it's skeleton. This is not a sudden thing.

And then just to add more to think about, You can buy fire
and killer that is composed of orthophosphate. It kills
the fire ants better than anything else. But that kind of
level of phosphate is not going to be in the aquarium.


Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Pszemol wrote on 4/5/2006 9:00 AM:
> "TheRock" > wrote in message
> news:9QOYf.1169$jf7.1162@trndny08...
>> OK you got me...I always though through the infinite wisdom
>> of local fish shop guy that PO4 kills...just aids nasty algae and
>> Cyano...
>> Hey you learned me something today. Thanks !
>
> It might kill but not directly. If high levels of phosphates
> cause algal/cyano outbreaks, and they smother corals, live
> rock above the normal state than yes, things start to die...
> But phosphates directly are not really a big issue.
>
>> I've been known to believe things I read on the internet as well : )
>
> It all depends what is somebodys agenda behind what is written.
> The guys designing label on the phosphate removal products
> are interested in selling the maximum amounts of their product.
> This is quite obvious.

[Wayne Sallee]

Pszemol wrote on 4/4/2006 11:33 PM:
> Do you know how much of iron you currently have ?
> Do you know you have not enough ?
> Do you know how much to dose to not overdose ?

A good way to dose iron, is to stick iron wire in the
sump. It will slowly rust and give off iron, but it won't
overdose. Exess iron in this form will precipitate out in
salt water and not become toxic.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Wayne Sallee]

Yea, it's aluminum oxide, but it's not like comparing
apples to oranges. It's more like comparing apples to
apple sauce.

Aluminum oxide dissolved in water is aluminum hydroxide.

Aluminum in ceramics, is aluminum silicate (clay) fired to
a high temperature.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Boomer wrote on 4/5/2006 1:26 PM:
> It is not Aluminum Hydroxide Al(OH)3, but Aluminum Oxide Al2O3, which is like comparing
> apples and oranges. Alumina is what most ceramics are and some knife sharpeners and the
> arch tube in High Pressure Sodium lamps. It has very little solubility. See the post by
> PZ. Most reefers have much better sucess with iron based removers than any othe PO4
> remover to inlcude after effects. They are pretty much the PO4 remover of choice.
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Yes, they are mogul based bulbs that have the outer bulb
that greatly reduces uv output.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Boomer wrote on 4/5/2006 1:28 PM:
> Wayne are these DE's tubes or mogul based bulbs ?
>

[Boomer]

What about all the heavy metal in that iron wire ?

"It will slowly rust and give off iron"

Says who and what grade of iron wire ? Iron is often as Fe ++ or Fe+++ technically, buy
"iron" as in wire is a different beast

First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm

Iodine
--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com



"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
: Pszemol wrote on 4/4/2006 11:33 PM:
: > Do you know how much of iron you currently have ?
: > Do you know you have not enough ?
: > Do you know how much to dose to not overdose ?
:
: A good way to dose iron, is to stick iron wire in the
: sump. It will slowly rust and give off iron, but it won't
: overdose. Exess iron in this form will precipitate out in
: salt water and not become toxic.
:
: Wayne Sallee
: Wayne's Pets
:

[Wayne Sallee]

I suppose I could get more bang for the buck with iron
pipe, aluminum foil, and lime :)

That would add all the nessesary additives to the aquarium
at the same time :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Boomer wrote on 4/6/2006 6:10 PM:
> What about all the heavy metal in that iron wire ?
>
> "It will slowly rust and give off iron"
>
> Says who and what grade of iron wire ? Iron is often as Fe ++ or Fe+++ technically, buy
> "iron" as in wire is a different beast
>
> First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm
>
> Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm
>
> Iodine

[Wayne Sallee]

And it will have the advantage of removing heavy metal :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 4/6/2006 6:34 PM:
> I suppose I could get more bang for the buck with iron pipe, aluminum
> foil, and lime :)
>
> That would add all the nessesary additives to the aquarium at the same
> time :-)
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> Boomer wrote on 4/6/2006 6:10 PM:
>> What about all the heavy metal in that iron wire ?
>>
>> "It will slowly rust and give off iron"
>>
>> Says who and what grade of iron wire ? Iron is often as Fe ++ or Fe+++
>> technically, buy "iron" as in wire is a different beast
>>
>> First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
>> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm
>>
>> Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
>> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm
>>
>> Iodine