What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?

[JB]

I visited a couple of web sites pricing food for this season (Aqua Mart for
Hakari Staple & Western Pond for Sho Koi) and noticed a jump in prices.
Between the two, Western Pond was offering 10 lbs of Sho Koi for $56.98,
including shipping costs. This seems about $7.00 higher than last year.

What are you feeding? And, where are you buying it?

TIA

John

[Koi-Lo]

"JB" > wrote in message
link.net...
>I visited a couple of web sites pricing food for this season (Aqua Mart for
>Hakari Staple & Western Pond for Sho Koi) and noticed a jump in prices.

The hobbyist pond owners are ripped off annually. Look at all the companies
getting on the bandwagon for a piece of the pie. I feed my outdoor koi and
goldfish a mix of trout chow, catfish chow (about $12 per 50lb bag) and
puppy and kitten chow. Check out my website to see how they're thriving and
breeding like crazy! Don't believe those who say you have to feed them tons
of the cheaper food to come near the overpriced products. That isn't true
at all. My filters don't need cleaning any more than when I was paying
outrageous prices for their food.

> Between the two, Western Pond was offering 10 lbs of Sho Koi for $56.98,
> including shipping costs. This seems about $7.00 higher than last year.

Head to your nearest Farm & Home store such as Tractor Supply and buy
there......

> What are you feeding? And, where are you buying it?

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria Groups.*
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gareee©]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...

> Head to your nearest Farm & Home store such as Tractor Supply and buy
> there......

I took that advise, and it's been very beneficial. I think we got a 50 lb
bag for $6-$8.


--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

[Roy]

Never yet have bought regular koi food for my koi in all the years I
have kept them. All I have ever fed is a localy prepared fish chow
that costs 5 or 6 bucks for a 50# sack........Ingredient for
ingredient, it has pretty darn close to identical ingredients as the
Rangen (sp?) brand of koi food. I also on occassion buy a nationally
known manufacturers brand of food just for a chamge, (Land O' Lakes or
Faithway Feed) as it only costs about $2.00 more per 50# sack than
the locally made stuff does......


--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[~ janj]

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 19:49:54 GMT, "JB" > wrote:

>I visited a couple of web sites pricing food for this season (Aqua Mart for
>Hakari Staple & Western Pond for Sho Koi) and noticed a jump in prices.
>Between the two, Western Pond was offering 10 lbs of Sho Koi for $56.98,
>including shipping costs. This seems about $7.00 higher than last year.
>
>What are you feeding? And, where are you buying it?
>John

Hi John, I purchased thru Western Outdoor Aquatics/Western Pond. I guess I
didn't pay attention to the price change. I usually get my Sho Koi, 10 lbs.
& Sho Gold at the same time so I get the free shipping. I also ordered a
box of Manda Fu, so that should cover me for this season.

~ jan, certified AKCA koi health advisor.
--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Koi-Lo]

"Gareee©" > wrote in message
...
> "Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Head to your nearest Farm & Home store such as Tractor Supply and buy
>> there......
>
> I took that advise, and it's been very beneficial. I think we got a 50 lb
> bag for $6-$8.
=====================
Yes, and watch for sales. Last spring we only paid $9.99 per 50lb bag.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria Groups.*
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gareee©]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Head to your nearest Farm & Home store such as Tractor Supply and buy
>>> there......
>>
>> I took that advise, and it's been very beneficial. I think we got a 50 lb
>> bag for $6-$8.
> =====================
> Yes, and watch for sales. Last spring we only paid $9.99 per 50lb bag.

Scratches head....You paid $9.99 on sale.. I got mine for less without a
sale! ;)


--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

[Koi-Lo]

"Gareee©" > wrote in message
...
> "Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Gareee©" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Head to your nearest Farm & Home store such as Tractor Supply and buy
>>>> there......
>>>
>>> I took that advise, and it's been very beneficial. I think we got a 50
>>> lb bag for $6-$8.
>> =====================
>> Yes, and watch for sales. Last spring we only paid $9.99 per 50lb bag.
>
> Scratches head....You paid $9.99 on sale.. I got mine for less without a
> sale! ;)
====================
Which product did you buy? Catfish chow here runs around $10.99 per 50 bag.
Trout chow about the same. After spending over $5 a lb for koi and GF foods
I thought that was a bargain.

I've never seen the 50 lb bags go that cheap. I thought perhaps it was a
typo and you meant $16 to $18 a 50lb bag.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria Groups.*
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gareee©]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...

> Which product did you buy? Catfish chow here runs around $10.99 per 50
> bag. Trout chow about the same. After spending over $5 a lb for koi and
> GF foods I thought that was a bargain.
>
> I've never seen the 50 lb bags go that cheap. I thought perhaps it was a
> typo and you meant $16 to $18 a 50lb bag.

I'd have to check.. keep in mind I AM in the boondocks, and prices aren't
always jacked up, and customers taken advantage of.

Kinda weird living this way... LOL!


--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

[[email protected]]

Rangen. http://makeashorterlink.com/?U10B215EC
look for fish food with water type proteins, like krill or fish meal in the first
couple ingredients. and take a good sniff... if it smells rancid for God's sake dont
feed it to the fish. High quality food should be frozen and only take out what is
needed for the week. Ingrid

"JB" > wrote:

>I visited a couple of web sites pricing food for this season (Aqua Mart for
>Hakari Staple & Western Pond for Sho Koi) and noticed a jump in prices.
>Between the two, Western Pond was offering 10 lbs of Sho Koi for $56.98,
>including shipping costs. This seems about $7.00 higher than last year.
>
>What are you feeding? And, where are you buying it?
>
>TIA
>
>John
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Andrew Burgess]

"JB" > writes:

>I visited a couple of web sites pricing food for this season (Aqua Mart for
>Hakari Staple & Western Pond for Sho Koi) and noticed a jump in prices.
>Between the two, Western Pond was offering 10 lbs of Sho Koi for $56.98,
>including shipping costs. This seems about $7.00 higher than last year.

>What are you feeding? And, where are you buying it?

I order Rangen 25 lb bags direct from the factory.
The last number I used was 208 543 6421
If I recall correctly, it was about $30 plus $10 shipping.

I still want to try catfish or trout chow someday. Does anyone know if
one floats better than the other? I would guess that catfish sinks
and trout floats...

[Koi-Lo]

"Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
...
> I still want to try catfish or trout chow someday. Does anyone know if
> one floats better than the other? I would guess that catfish sinks
> and trout floats...
=================
BOTH of them float.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gareee©]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...

> BOTH of them float.

For a while at least... LOL!

"They all float.. they all float down here......"

....Pennywise the Clown....

;)


--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

[[email protected]]

the problem with corn based foods is the same problem found with that dog food that
was killing dogs earlier this year... contamination with fungus that causes toxins.
food for trout and catfish is formulated to first be as cheap as possible and then
put weight on the fish as fast as possible so they can be harvested as fast as
possible. this food is not formulated for the long term health of pet fish. corn is
implicated in liver disease in fish, perhaps rancidity and fungal toxins are the
underlying cause. a good rule of thumb is feed what the breeders feed.
Ingrid

Andrew Burgess > wrote:

>"JB" > writes:
>
>>I visited a couple of web sites pricing food for this season (Aqua Mart for
>>Hakari Staple & Western Pond for Sho Koi) and noticed a jump in prices.
>>Between the two, Western Pond was offering 10 lbs of Sho Koi for $56.98,
>>including shipping costs. This seems about $7.00 higher than last year.
>
>>What are you feeding? And, where are you buying it?
>
>I order Rangen 25 lb bags direct from the factory.
>The last number I used was 208 543 6421
>If I recall correctly, it was about $30 plus $10 shipping.
>
>I still want to try catfish or trout chow someday. Does anyone know if
>one floats better than the other? I would guess that catfish sinks
>and trout floats...
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Koi-Lo]

"Gareee©" > wrote in message
...
> "Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> BOTH of them float.
>
> For a while at least... LOL!
>
> "They all float.. they all float down here......"
>
> ...Pennywise the Clown....
>
> ;)
=======================
Hey, I read that book. :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Altum]

wrote:
> Rangen. http://makeashorterlink.com/?U10B215EC
> look for fish food with water type proteins, like krill or fish meal in the first
> couple ingredients. and take a good sniff... if it smells rancid for God's sake dont
> feed it to the fish. High quality food should be frozen and only take out what is
> needed for the week. Ingrid

I have a small pond with three comets, a ryukin, and some white clouds.
There's no way I could use up 25 lb. of Rangen food! I'm using Tetra
Color flakes at the moment (first ingredient is fish meal), bought fresh
in small batches. I've always gotten good results with a combination of
Tetra foods and live foods for tropicals, but is there a better mass
market food for goldfish?

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Roy]

Yet another uneducated unresearched guess, made by someone who thinks
they know it all...........Catfish and trout chow can be had in
sinking or floating types.........The feed mill here as well as the
local farm and feed supply stores sell it in sinking and floating
types.......
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[[email protected]]

stick with what you got. altho........ GF LOVE brine shrimp and especially
daphnia. Ingrid

Altum > wrote:

wrote:
>> Rangen. http://makeashorterlink.com/?U10B215EC
>> look for fish food with water type proteins, like krill or fish meal in the first
>> couple ingredients. and take a good sniff... if it smells rancid for God's sake dont
>> feed it to the fish. High quality food should be frozen and only take out what is
>> needed for the week. Ingrid
>
>I have a small pond with three comets, a ryukin, and some white clouds.
> There's no way I could use up 25 lb. of Rangen food! I'm using Tetra
>Color flakes at the moment (first ingredient is fish meal), bought fresh
>in small batches. I've always gotten good results with a combination of
>Tetra foods and live foods for tropicals, but is there a better mass
>market food for goldfish?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Koi-Lo]

> wrote in message
...
> the problem with corn based foods is the same problem found with that dog
> food that
> was killing dogs earlier this year... contamination with fungus that
> causes toxins.
> food for trout and catfish is formulated to first be as cheap as possible
> and then
> put weight on the fish as fast as possible so they can be harvested as
> fast as
> possible. this food is not formulated for the long term health of pet
> fish. corn is
> implicated in liver disease in fish, perhaps rancidity and fungal toxins
> are the
> underlying cause. a good rule of thumb is feed what the breeders feed.
> Ingrid
==============
Any food can *go rancid* if it's not kept cool and dry, not just catfish and
trout chow. My koi and goldfish have been on these feeds at least 7 years
and breed like crazy. All are healthy and active with excellent color. No
$8 to $10 a lb food fed or needed.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj]

> wrote in message
>> the problem with corn based foods is the same problem found with that dog
>> food that was killing dogs earlier this year... contamination with fungus that
>> causes toxins. food for trout and catfish is formulated to first be as cheap as possible
>> and then put weight on the fish as fast as possible so they can be harvested as
>> fast as possible. this food is not formulated for the long term health of pet
>> fish. corn is implicated in liver disease in fish, perhaps rancidity and fungal toxins
>> are the underlying cause. a good rule of thumb is feed what the breeders feed.
>> Ingrid
>==============
>Any food can *go rancid* if it's not kept cool and dry, not just catfish and
>trout chow. My koi and goldfish have been on these feeds at least 7 years
>and breed like crazy. All are healthy and active with excellent color. No
>$8 to $10 a lb food fed or needed.

That's true, rancidity, and that's great, if those foods work for you and
you're happy with them. If I had as many fish as say Roy or Carol feeds,
I'd be looking at Rangen, a koi food that is still fairly reasonable
priced, jmo.

As tis, many of us, similar to Altuma, have fewer fish, so we don't need to
buy in bulk, and it would/could be hazardous to our fishes health if we did
(rancidity).

Ingrid did mention something about keep foods frozen, and that's one of the
reasons I like ShoKoi, it is freezable. Some brands mention not to freeze,
it was explained to me something about the oils separating??? I'm not quite
sure, so read the label. And just an aside, if you go to a backyard fish
store and they try to sell you X-koi food in an old ice cream container,
take a pass on it. ;o) ~ jan

--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Gill Passman]

Roy wrote:
> Yet another uneducated unresearched guess, made by someone who thinks
> they know it all...........Catfish and trout chow can be had in
> sinking or floating types.........The feed mill here as well as the
> local farm and feed supply stores sell it in sinking and floating
> types.......

So I guess the bottom line is you feed what you feed your fish and they
do just fine...Koi-Lo feeds her fish what she feeds her fish and they do
just fine...whether it sinks or floats is academic...you both agreed
that the alternatives that you use do your fish just great...rather than
the more expensive alternatives...

[Altum]

wrote:
> stick with what you got. altho........ GF LOVE brine shrimp and especially
> daphnia. Ingrid

Cool! I've got frozen daphnia for the killies and I pick up gut-loaded
fresh brine shrimp sometimes. I'll toss some in the pond. Thanks so much.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Koi-Lo]

"~ janj" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in message
>>> the problem with corn based foods is the same problem found with that
>>> dog
>>> food that was killing dogs earlier this year... contamination with
>>> fungus that
>>> causes toxins. food for trout and catfish is formulated to first be as
>>> cheap as possible
>>> and then put weight on the fish as fast as possible so they can be
>>> harvested as
>>> fast as possible. this food is not formulated for the long term health
>>> of pet
>>> fish. corn is implicated in liver disease in fish, perhaps rancidity
>>> and fungal toxins
>>> are the underlying cause. a good rule of thumb is feed what the
>>> breeders feed.
>>> Ingrid
>>==============
>>Any food can *go rancid* if it's not kept cool and dry, not just catfish
>>and
>>trout chow. My koi and goldfish have been on these feeds at least 7 years
>>and breed like crazy. All are healthy and active with excellent color.
>>No
>>$8 to $10 a lb food fed or needed.
=======================
> That's true, rancidity, and that's great, if those foods work for you and
> you're happy with them. If I had as many fish as say Roy or Carol feeds,
> I'd be looking at Rangen, a koi food that is still fairly reasonable
> priced, jmo.

I need something affordable. And considering they went through as much $8+
lb food as they do the cheaper foods, I'll stick to the cheaper foods.

> As tis, many of us, similar to Altuma, have fewer fish, so we don't need
> to
> buy in bulk, and it would/could be hazardous to our fishes health if we
> did
> (rancidity).

When I only had a few koi and GF I also bought the expensive foods in 5 lbs
bags. Personally I can't see any difference in their health, breeding or
color on the cheaper chows (including puppy and kitty chow mixed in). I
keep all their food indoors in the coolest driest place in my A/C home. The
garage or outbuilding are the last places I would keep fish food. Not only
would it quickly get rancid buy insects would infest it.

> Ingrid did mention something about keep foods frozen, and that's one of
> the
> reasons I like ShoKoi, it is freezable.

Some people have too many fish to freeze their foods.

Some brands mention not to freeze,
> it was explained to me something about the oils separating??? I'm not
> quite
> sure, so read the label. And just an aside, if you go to a backyard fish
> store and they try to sell you X-koi food in an old ice cream container,
> take a pass on it. ;o) ~ jan

I've been buying most of mine at TFC, in bags - it's always been fresh, bug
free and the fish love it. If there's anything left in the fall it gets
mixed into the compost pile.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj]

>I need something affordable. And considering they went through as much $8+
>lb food as they do the cheaper foods, I'll stick to the cheaper foods.

I think you made that point, there was a reason you needed to repeat it?
Did my post some how offend you? That was not my intent. :o\

>Some people have too many fish to freeze their foods.

And your point?

Why don't we stick to what we know/do, and not bring up the problems of
"some people"? Some people don't have fish, some people pay big bucks/lb.
some people don't. Some people freeze, some people don't.... one could go
on and on, picking on some people, or worst, try to validate their point
using "some people".

If :some people: have too many fish to freeze their food, they go thru the
food fast enough they wouldn't need to, don't they? Perhaps these "some
people" can answer that one, and get more OnT action going on RP. :o)
~ jan

--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Koi-Lo]

"~ janj" > wrote in message
...
> >I need something affordable. And considering they went through as much
> >$8+
>>lb food as they do the cheaper foods, I'll stick to the cheaper foods.
>
> I think you made that point, there was a reason you needed to repeat it?

A lot of information is repeated on NGs.

> Did my post some how offend you? That was not my intent. :o\

No, I was not at all offended. :-)

>>Some people have too many fish to freeze their foods.
>
> And your point?

The point is not all of us with many fish can afford a separate freezer or
have the space for one. 50lbs of fish food is a lot of food. It's not
going to fit in a regular fridge's freezer as you know.

> Why don't we stick to what we know/do, and not bring up the problems of
> "some people"?

Huh...... ???

Some people don't have fish, some people pay big bucks/lb.
> some people don't. Some people freeze, some people don't.... one could go
> on and on, picking on some people, or worst, try to validate their point
> using "some people".

What is *your* point? I seem to be missing it.

> If :some people: have too many fish to freeze their food, they go thru the
> food fast enough they wouldn't need to, don't they?

Not when they buy it by the 50lb bag. Maybe we talking about 2 different
things here..........

Perhaps these "some
> people" can answer that one, and get more OnT action going on RP. :o)
> ~ jan

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

most people seriously overfeed their Koi and GF too. how many fish do you have?
Ingrid


>>Some people have too many fish to freeze their foods.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Koi-Lo]

> wrote in message
...
> most people seriously overfeed their Koi and GF too. how many fish do you
> have?
> Ingrid
>
>
>>>Some people have too many fish to freeze their foods.
=====================
My NR can't tell who this is addressed to as it's under Jan's but the quote
is from my message. I have between 20 and 25 koi that are up to 6 years
old, about 120 year old koi (that are being delivered this coming week) and
probably 50 goldfish of various sizes and ages. That's why we buy our feed
in 50 lb bags. Last year they and all the fry went through about 100 lbs of
feed. We have a long feeding season here in TN, from mid/late March to late
Nov or early Dec.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj]

> wrote in message

> most people seriously overfeed their Koi and GF too. how many fish do you
> have? Ingrid

I think this one we can file under the need to "overfeed" when one buys the
cheaper foods to get the same amount of nutrition in the fish as the higher
priced stuff, as you've mentioned.

I found that out with dog food years ago. Small dog, grocery store "cheap"
brand, feed 3 cups. Higher priced, but vet recommended brand, feed 1 cup.
Price difference, practically nil, when one takes in that ratio. Big
difference, how much comes out the other end.

In fish, if your filter can handle it, and you're not worried about the
other concerns, no biggie. With dogs, again if you're not worried about
health concerns (which was the reason that made us switch), if you don't
mind picking up more poo. No biggie.

I don't think any of us here on this newsgroup has a koi in the 50 year age
range, that they've raised in a garden pond setting. When someone does,
that's the person who will get my attention. I bet we find out it comes
down to not just processed food, but quite a bit of natural whole foods
too. :o) jmo, ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Derek Broughton]

~ janj wrote:

> I don't think any of us here on this newsgroup has a koi in the 50 year
> age range, that they've raised in a garden pond setting. When someone
> does, that's the person who will get my attention. I bet we find out it
> comes down to not just processed food, but quite a bit of natural whole
> foods too. :o) jmo, ~ jan

On the side of the cheap-food feeders, there's the argument that nobody here
has a koi in the 50 year age range :-)

I've never lost a koi to disease or starvation. I don't intend to fatten
them up on expensive food just for the sake of the Herons and Raccoons :-)
(I doubt anyone would ever accuse me of overfeeding, either).
--
derek

[~ janj]

>> On the side of the cheap-food feeders, there's the argument that nobody
>> here has a koi in the 50 year age range :-)
>
>My opinion? I'm cheap, I spend as little as I can when I shop for myself,
>and the fish aren't any better then me.

If one really wants or needs to be cheap, lower the fish load and they can
live off what falls, crawls, flies, jumps or grows in the pond. ;o) ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Altum]

Koi-Lo wrote:

> My NR can't tell who this is addressed to as it's under Jan's but the quote
> is from my message. I have between 20 and 25 koi that are up to 6 years
> old, about 120 year old koi (that are being delivered this coming week) and
> probably 50 goldfish of various sizes and ages. That's why we buy our feed
> in 50 lb bags. Last year they and all the fry went through about 100
> lbs of
> feed. We have a long feeding season here in TN, from mid/late March to
> late
> Nov or early Dec.

120 koi? Wow. Where are you going to put them all? Are any BF koi?
Yellow BF koi are my absolute fave, with orange a close second. :-)

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Galen Hekhuis]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:13:05 GMT, Altum > wrote:

>Koi-Lo wrote:
>
>> My NR can't tell who this is addressed to as it's under Jan's but the quote
>> is from my message. I have between 20 and 25 koi that are up to 6 years
>> old, about 120 year old koi (that are being delivered this coming week) and
>> probably 50 goldfish of various sizes and ages. That's why we buy our feed
>> in 50 lb bags. Last year they and all the fry went through about 100
>> lbs of
>> feed. We have a long feeding season here in TN, from mid/late March to
>> late
>> Nov or early Dec.
>
>120 koi? Wow. Where are you going to put them all? Are any BF koi?
>Yellow BF koi are my absolute fave, with orange a close second. :-)


I thought you had ordered some really old koi. I was going to ask how
long koi lived.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Stings like a butterfly, floats like a bee

[Koi-Lo]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
>~ janj wrote:
>
>> I don't think any of us here on this newsgroup has a koi in the 50 year
>> age range, that they've raised in a garden pond setting. When someone
>> does, that's the person who will get my attention. I bet we find out it
>> comes down to not just processed food, but quite a bit of natural whole
>> foods too. :o) jmo, ~ jan
>
> On the side of the cheap-food feeders, there's the argument that nobody
> here
> has a koi in the 50 year age range :-)
>
> I've never lost a koi to disease or starvation. I don't intend to fatten
> them up on expensive food just for the sake of the Herons and Raccoons :-)
> (I doubt anyone would ever accuse me of overfeeding, either).
====================
They always seem to fall back on those using cheaper feeds as "overfeeding"
their fish. My koi and GF ate the *SAME AMOUNT* of expensive foods they did
the cheaper foods when I switched. My filters still had to be cleaned every
2 weeks or so - there was no difference in the amount of feces, mulm or
algae. They spawn perfect fry with almost 99% survival rate. So why feed
the expensive foods? I just don't get it?!?!?!

It kind of reminds me of the vets who charge the farmer 25¢ for a capsule of
antibiotic and the poodle owner $2.50.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Gareee©" > wrote in message
...
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> On the side of the cheap-food feeders, there's the argument that nobody
>> here
>> has a koi in the 50 year age range :-)
>
> My opinion? I'm cheap, I spend as little as I can when I shop for myself,
> and the fish aren't any better then me.
======================
Gareee, look at the pics of the GF and Koi on my website below - do they
look obese, half dead and/or sick from trout, catfish, puppy and kitty chow?
The pics I see of show koi are all fatter than my koi. Some look like
stuffed sausages that couldn't even turn around if their life depended on
it! I'm with you and don't plan to make a few obscenely greedy feed
companies richer......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Altum" > wrote in message
. net...
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>
>> My NR can't tell who this is addressed to as it's under Jan's but the
>> quote
>> is from my message. I have between 20 and 25 koi that are up to 6 years
>> old, about 120 year old koi (that are being delivered this coming week)
>> and
>> probably 50 goldfish of various sizes and ages. That's why we buy our
>> feed
>> in 50 lb bags. Last year they and all the fry went through about 100 lbs
>> of
>> feed. We have a long feeding season here in TN, from mid/late March to
>> late
>> Nov or early Dec.
>
> 120 koi? Wow. Where are you going to put them all?

Almost all are being delivered (next week) to a store in the city that sells
pond fish and supplies. :-) I also have about 6 adults that he'll take in
a few weeks. We have to remove some from the 2000g pond as it's getting
overcrowded.

> Are any BF koi?

Yes, many of them being sold are BFs. But I will still have a 680g tank of
about 25 small butterflies because I haven't decided which to keep for
myself yet. I want them to pattern and color up a bit more before I sell
them. Eventually I will have *only* butterfly koi. They're definitely much
more beautiful than the short-fin koi. I have both scaled and scaleless,
mirror and diamond-scale BF koi in many colors. I even have two
ghost-diamond-scale BF koi.

> Yellow BF koi are my absolute fave, with orange a close second. :-)

YEP!!! I love the orange and yellow diamond-scale butterflies and have
several breeders. :-)) My 800g has nothing but young adult diamond-scale
butterflies. I also have a gorgeous blue mirror butterfly.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[G Pearce]

I hate to jump into this thread as it is a pretty passionate one here - I
have to agree with Jan as I went thru the same experience as Jan a few years
ago - my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high
end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing
almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong -
he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less
nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive
food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food
for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4
times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when
they beg :~) )

Gale :~)
> I found that out with dog food years ago. Small dog, grocery store "cheap"
> brand, feed 3 cups. Higher priced, but vet recommended brand, feed 1 cup.
> Price difference, practically nil, when one takes in that ratio. Big
> difference, how much comes out the other end.
>
> In fish, if your filter can handle it, and you're not worried about the
> other concerns, no biggie. With dogs, again if you're not worried about
> health concerns (which was the reason that made us switch), if you don't
> mind picking up more poo. No biggie.
>
> I don't think any of us here on this newsgroup has a koi in the 50 year
> age
> range, that they've raised in a garden pond setting. When someone does,
> that's the person who will get my attention. I bet we find out it comes
> down to not just processed food, but quite a bit of natural whole foods
> too. :o) jmo, ~ jan
>
>
> ~ jan/WA
> Zone 7a

[Gill Passman]

G Pearce wrote:
> I hate to jump into this thread as it is a pretty passionate one here - I
> have to agree with Jan as I went thru the same experience as Jan a few years
> ago - my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high
> end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing
> almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong -
> he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less
> nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive
> food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food
> for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4
> times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when
> they beg :~) )
>
> Gale :~)
>

OK, I hate to jump into this as well but....now I will certainly agree
that there are fish foods as well as other pet foods on the market that
do not contain as much fibre or filler - hmmm, aren't we all encouraged
to eat fibre that we cannot digest as part of a healthy diet??? and
doesn't this apply to the health of our fish as well....a natural
balanced diet contains protein, roughage, vitamins, minerals etc in fact
fibre is seen as a very posititive thing for our well being and the
health issues without it are quite significant - it might suit us if our
pets poop a little less but I very much doubt that it is beneficial to
their health....our medics would be in a panic if we didn't produce
sufficient waste products diagnosing all sorts of stuff...over here, in
the UK, the more regular and sufficient quantity the better (without
wanting to get gross) for our health as far as our medics and health
education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...

Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...the
fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? or is that just
another marketing ploy....if the fish are breeding and healthy and have
good colour do we need to take issue just because of a labelling issue????

Gill

[Roy]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 10:15:11 -0700, ~ janj >
wrote:
snip
>><>I don't think any of us here on this newsgroup has a koi in the 50 year age
>><>range, that they've raised in a garden pond setting. When someone does,
>><>that's the person who will get my attention. I bet we find out it comes
>><>down to not just processed food, but quite a bit of natural whole foods
>><>too. :o) jmo, ~ jan
>><>
>><>
>><>~ jan/WA
>><>Zone 7a
Perhaps not, but I do have two koi and a few white amur that were
placed in the pond back in early to mid 80's and are doing just fine?
I have to think that a natural pond and chepaer food is more of a
better deal than a liner type pond and cheaper food would be. I can
probably in all reality, get by without feeding anything to the fish
at all and they would do just fine, but that takes a wqay a lot of fun
and getting them to be so frieindly. Oh and corn, well, my babies
would have to dissagree on that too, as many a time I set out by the
pond and share a lage bag of Popcorn with them, often times popping a
bag just for them..They like the cheese flavored or the extra butter
flavor best.
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

[Gareee©]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...

> Gareee, look at the pics of the GF and Koi on my website below - do they
> look obese, half dead and/or sick from trout, catfish, puppy and kitty
> chow? The pics I see of show koi are all fatter than my koi. Some look
> like stuffed sausages that couldn't even turn around if their life
> depended on it! I'm with you and don't plan to make a few obscenely
> greedy feed companies richer......

Yep.. I can see no reason why I can buy 50 lbs of food for $6 or for $30.. I
might was well buy the fish shrimp and toss it in there.

Course I suppose if I was making $300,000 a year then I would buy the
expensive food, just because I could.

--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

[~ janj]

>On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:13:05 GMT, Altum > wrote:

>Yellow BF koi are my absolute fave, with orange a close second. :-)

Oh man, I wish I had a digital picture to send you of some of my 2 year
olds. Yellow and black. One of them currently has fins that are orange &
black, while the body is yellow and black. The fins look just like a
leopard, very cool. I'm down to culling so I'm not over crowded, and the
choice is really hard, after culling several times before this last year.
In fact, this time around I'm selling my first baby who is now 5-6 years
old. The bigger the fish, the more room I gain. :-) I was also going to
sell Wally, at BF (butterfly) koi I got for a $1.50 at Walmart over 10
years ago. I recently found out he's a Kikokuryu. The interesting thing
about this fish, is the pattern changes on his head. At one point it looked
like a cat face, with whiskers, ears, eyes, etc. This year it looks like a
black spider with 6 legs. Kind of hard to sell him now, as I really like an
odd koi. ;-) Yeah, yeah.... Takes after the owner. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[~ janj]

>On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:26:18 +0100, Gill Passman wrote:

>OK, I hate to jump into this as well but....now I will certainly agree
>that there are fish foods as well as other pet foods on the market that
>do not contain as much fibre or filler - hmmm, aren't we all encouraged
>to eat fibre that we cannot digest as part of a healthy diet???

But we're omnivores, cats & dogs are carnivores, last I heard. ;o)
Therefore pooping more than twice/day isn't necessary. On non-digestible
fillers, a dog can poop up to 4 or more times/day. Personally I wish the
fillers in my diet would go elsewhere if you know what I mean. ;)

>education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...

Hmmm, I think there are a few PhD's that would beg to differ, but I'm not
going to argue their points. Way too over my head. ;)

>Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
>cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...

Using dog food or cat chow was suggested at one point.

>the fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
>purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? Gill

No guarantees, one has to read the label. "Koi" food, even high priced
stuff, can have non-digestible filler in it. Corn being the biggest
problem, in that the fish LOVE it, it is their equivalent to candy. That is
why koivet says not to use a fish food with corn in the 1st three
ingredients. There's no evil in giving them treats, after all, that's the
fun part of having a fish pond, feeding the little piggies, and thinking we
see them smile. Are we goofy or what?

Now there is the worry of corn toxic fungus. I wonder if freezing would
kill such fungus? ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[[email protected]]

My little learning curve started when I started eating Atkins type foods and felt
immensely better. Then I got asthma and tested out allergic to wheat and corn.
pffft. Then I inherited my mothers dog HoneyChild who was allergic to everything
except the fish and potato dog food. Then Harry P our springer was flaking, itching
and getting hot spots on purina. HoneyChild developed congestive heart disease from
lousy crudded up teeth and 1500 bucks later we took home a half dead dog and put her
on "heart" and "kidney" diet which she was allergic to. She was harking nearly all
the time, she lost almost all her fur and what was left was like straw. and they gave
her 6 mo- 1 year (this was May of last year)
I said this is total bull**** and decided to go to a species appropriate diet for all
the dogs. Honey gets raw whole fish, the rest get raw meaty bone whatever is
cheapest and on sale at a local discount grocery. Harry recovered, Honey recovered
and has a soft as silk thick coat again, no harking and if she drops dead tomorrow
she will have had quality of life. No more foul breath or gummed up and loose teeth
in my dogs. http://weloveteaching.com/mutts/mutts.htm

While signed up with the raw feeding list I did some quick calculations on the price
of regular dog food and raw meat. It is hard to know how much of regular dog food is
corn or wheat or other cheap fillers, but plain old corn is really cheap and dog food
really isnt. So I give Harry 1lb of meat, usually between 29-69 cents a pound. When
stuff is on sale we buy 20-30 lbs at a time and toss it in the freezer. We also ask
people on local list if they are emptying out their freeze burned meat to drop it
off, likewise with venison, likewise people who fish.

This also got me to thinking about ferrets and how our ferrets never lived much
beyond 4 years which broke my heart, and I finally found a site where the guy started
feeding his ferrets species appropriate foods, rabbits, and the ferrets started
living well beyond 10 years.

I started feeding my koi high quality food before the light bulb above went off, but
since then I have learned that koi digest proteins and fats, and not carbohydrates.
that they have pretty short intestines and that too much food at once just passes
thru them cause they dont have a stomach. the bulkier and drier the food the less
chance it will get digested too. soon after I started feeding them better food they
quit whacking my water lilly. I only clean the mulm out of my veggie filter once a
year in fall when I put the pond to bed. 4 feet down on the bottom of my pond I can
still see the white tag that fell off the lily pot.

so I guess I would rather pay for krill and fish meal and feed small amounts rather
than pay a lot for large amounts of corn.
Ingrid

"G Pearce" > wrote:
- my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high
>end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing
>almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong -
>he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less
>nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive
>food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food
>for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4
>times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when
>they beg :~) )


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[[email protected]]

Koi digest proteins and fats. these are contained in the little critters they have
evolved to feed on, the little worms, larvae, daphnia, etc. these little critters
live on the algae and water plants, and the worms are usually in the mud which is why
they root in plant pots and on the bottom. The algae they eat meets their "green"
needs, but algae is structurally completely different from land plants with all that
cellulose.
the problem with all that excess "poop" is that it is very rich in nutrients that
bacteria break down into wastes that foul the water. the poop of a healthy fish is
not "seen" hanging from their butt or sitting in strings on the bottom. It is
supposed to disintegrate when it hits the water (mostly seen in fish tanks).
the commercial fish food is cheap because it is "just" good enough to fatten up the
fish for one year and then they are "meat". there is no concern for long term
health. actually, anyone can buy fish food by buying krill in bulk. the breeders in
China specifically raise all kinds of live foods like blood worms, black worms to
feed the pond raised fish. they power feed them species appropriate foods to get
them large very fast. Ingrid


Gill Passman > wrote:
a natural
>balanced diet contains protein, roughage, vitamins, minerals etc in fact
>fibre is seen as a very posititive thing for our well being and the
>health issues without it are quite significant - it might suit us if our
>pets poop a little less but I very much doubt that it is beneficial to
>their health....our medics would be in a panic if we didn't produce
>sufficient waste products diagnosing all sorts of stuff...over here, in
>the UK, the more regular and sufficient quantity the better (without
>wanting to get gross) for our health as far as our medics and health
>education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...
>
>Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
>cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...the
>fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
>purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? or is that just
>another marketing ploy....if the fish are breeding and healthy and have
>good colour do we need to take issue just because of a labelling issue????
>
>Gill



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[[email protected]]

no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid

~ janj > wrote:
>Now there is the worry of corn toxic fungus. I wonder if freezing would
>kill such fungus? ~ jan


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[~ janj]

>no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
>are also toxic. Ingrid

I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement is
a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Mister Gardener]

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:26:18 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>G Pearce wrote:
>> I hate to jump into this thread as it is a pretty passionate one here - I
>> have to agree with Jan as I went thru the same experience as Jan a few years
>> ago - my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high
>> end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing
>> almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong -
>> he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less
>> nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive
>> food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food
>> for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4
>> times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when
>> they beg :~) )
>>
>> Gale :~)
>>
>
>OK, I hate to jump into this as well but....now I will certainly agree
>that there are fish foods as well as other pet foods on the market that
>do not contain as much fibre or filler - hmmm, aren't we all encouraged
>to eat fibre that we cannot digest as part of a healthy diet??? and
>doesn't this apply to the health of our fish as well....a natural
>balanced diet contains protein, roughage, vitamins, minerals etc in fact
>fibre is seen as a very posititive thing for our well being and the
>health issues without it are quite significant - it might suit us if our
>pets poop a little less but I very much doubt that it is beneficial to
>their health....our medics would be in a panic if we didn't produce
>sufficient waste products diagnosing all sorts of stuff...over here, in
>the UK, the more regular and sufficient quantity the better (without
>wanting to get gross) for our health as far as our medics and health
>education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...
>
>Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
>cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...the
>fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
>purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? or is that just
>another marketing ploy....if the fish are breeding and healthy and have
>good colour do we need to take issue just because of a labelling issue????
>
>Gill
As we should be doing when we shop for food for ourselves, we need to
be reading ingredients labels. Then comparing equivalent brands by
price.

-- Mister Gardener

[Derek Broughton]

~ janj wrote:

>>> On the side of the cheap-food feeders, there's the argument that nobody
>>> here has a koi in the 50 year age range :-)
>>
>>My opinion? I'm cheap, I spend as little as I can when I shop for myself,
>>and the fish aren't any better then me.
>
> If one really wants or needs to be cheap, lower the fish load and they can
> live off what falls, crawls, flies, jumps or grows in the pond. ;o) ~ jan

That's essentially my policy. I only feed the fish for _my_ enjoyment, and
then not much. They do get more food from the pond than from me (and yet
I've never had a problem with koi eating the plants, which surprises me).
--
derek

[[email protected]]

correct, freezing wont do anything.

corn for human consumption must undergo a lot more rigorous examination. altho we
know about this last batch of food, I wonder how much "low dose" of the toxin is
found in dog food. it seems a LOT of dogs get cancer.
does cat food contain corn? do cats get much cancer?
Ingrid

~ janj > wrote:

>>no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
>>are also toxic. Ingrid
>
>I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement is
>a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan
>
>
>~ jan/WA
>Zone 7a



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[G Pearce]

Cancer is what my cat (mentioned above in thread) had and eventually died
from, we used to feed our cats Purina brand food. Purina seems to have a lot
of corn in all of their different pet foods. We are now feeding them Iams
Multi Cat ("corn grits" are listed as 3rd ingredient) Getting back to the
fish, when I started ponding 13 yrs ago, I was using Purina Trout Chow -1st
ingredient, I believe was corn, but I think it was all the fish byproducts
and oils that were the problem - my 1st 2 koi went from 3" to 18" in 3 yrs
and died with no visible problems. The 3rd koi from that group died the
following year of nothing visible other than it went totally blind When I
started to ask around as to why, I was directed to a koi farm to ask . The
first question was "what are you feeding them?" With the Purina Trout Chow
answer, the koi breeder asked me how long do I think I would live if I ate
at McDonalds 3 meals / day, 7 days a week. He said they use some trout chow
sparingly to put some size on their koi until their first cull, then high
quality food to bring out the colours and for health. He also said the
"Chow" was formulated for trout, catfish and salmon farms to get the fish
large enough for market as quickly as possible, typically 13 months. The
effect it has on their internal organs is of no interest to them
jme Gale :~)
> found in dog food. it seems a LOT of dogs get cancer.
> does cat food contain corn? do cats get much cancer?
> Ingrid
>
> ~ janj > wrote:
>
>>>no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and
>>>rancid oils
>>>are also toxic. Ingrid
>>
>>I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement
>>is
>>a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan
>>
>>
>>~ jan/WA
>>Zone 7a
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
> http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
> sign up:
> http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold
> website.
> I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Koi-Lo]

"Altum" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> BTW, you should see the pictures of livers from discus fed on beef heart
> in his book. The livers are huge, not functioning properly, and filled
> with fat globules. Animal fats are very bad for fish and both dog and cat
> foods contain a lot of animal fat. Anyone feeding cat or dog food had a
> look at their fishes livers? Can you prove you're not doing long-term
> damage to your fish?

How can we prove any of the feeds aren't doing long-term damage to our fish?
How many of us can afford to feed them fresh shrimp, scallops and other sea
foods from the local stores? Have you any idea what seafood costs? Paying
a premium price for koi food is no guarantee it doesn't contain something
harmful or was stored correctly BEFORE we purchased it. Also, how can we
know what's really in it?

And no, looking healthy and spawning for
> even a decade is NOT a good indicator of liver health in an animal that
> should have a 100-year lifespan.

Nor is paying $5 to $10 a lb for koi food. In just the past 8 years it went
from GF (or example) being mainly vegetarians to GF being mainly
carnivorous. First I read that they can't digest meaty foods and now the
story is they can't digest starches or carbohydrates. Next year they'll be
omnivorous or maybe grainivorous.... or so someone will claim. ;-) I've
learned to take it all with a grain of salt as they say.

Just look at the decades long but
> still shortened lifespan of alcoholic humans with cirrhosis.

There's no comparison. Drunks seldom eat anything like a normal diet or
even know or care what they eat or if they eat. As long as they have their
*fix* on hand. No one is giving their fish alcohol. :-)

> Sorry. I'll go back to patching my pond liner now.

Everyone has an opinion worth hearing.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj]

>On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:09:28 GMT, Altum > wrote:

>BTW, you should see the pictures of livers from discus fed on beef heart
>in his book. The livers are huge, not functioning properly, and filled
>with fat globules. Animal fats are very bad for fish and both dog and
>cat foods contain a lot of animal fat. Anyone feeding cat or dog food
>had a look at their fishes livers?

Lots of the fishvets have, that teach the courses to the AKCA Koi Health
Advisors. Why I try to encourage people not to feed that stuff, to read
labels, etc.

IMHO, If money is an issue, it would be better to lower the fish load, and
only use a good quality processed food as a treat when you go out an visit
the fish. They can live off the pond, if it is large enough, planted &
established. Not to mention this will lower the maintenance on the filter.
~ jan
~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

[Altum]

Koi-Lo wrote:

> Everyone has an opinion worth hearing.

I doubt you realize it, but that's an incredibly condescending
statement. You are confusing opinion with the science that Ingrid and I
are trying to present.

If you choose to wear blinders and not read veterinary articles and
aquaculture literature that's your choice. If you did, you would learn
that trout chow and catfish chow are developed for aquacultured trout
and catfish, not pet koi. They are designed to provide the cheapest
possible food that provides short-term health, rapid growth, and
palatable flesh when the fish reaches someone's dinner table. That's
not the usual goal for pet fish. I'm sure your fish are fine, but
they're not likely to have the same long-term health and extensive
lifespan of fish fed diets that have been optimized for koi.

My OPINION is that keeping five koi on a diet optimized for health and
longevity is preferable to keeping fifty koi on cheap catfish and trout
chow.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Koi-Lo]

"Altum" > wrote in message
. net...
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>
>> Everyone has an opinion worth hearing.
>
> I doubt you realize it, but that's an incredibly condescending statement.
> You are confusing opinion with the science that Ingrid and I are trying to
> present.

It's not condescending. It's the truth. Everyone's opinion is worth
hearing. This isn't a communist country. :-)) Science? Have you any peer
reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA? Studies
done with control groups and by people with no vested interest in any feed
company in any way? I honestly looked on the net months ago and came up
with nothing. Nothing but anecdotes and the glowing claims made by those
selling such products.

> If you choose to wear blinders and not read veterinary articles and
> aquaculture literature that's your choice. If you did, you would learn
> that trout chow and catfish chow are developed for aquacultured trout and
> catfish, not pet koi.

And yet koi thrive and reproduce on these feeds and I was unable to find
anything ... see above.

They are designed to provide the cheapest
> possible food that provides short-term health, rapid growth, and palatable
> flesh when the fish reaches someone's dinner table. That's not the usual
> goal for pet fish. I'm sure your fish are fine, but they're not likely to
> have the same long-term health and extensive lifespan of fish fed diets
> that have been optimized for koi.

How many of us on this NG are going to still be here 100 years from now? If
they live 75 years instead of 100 years I'll be happy. :-)

> My OPINION is that keeping five koi on a diet optimized for health and
> longevity is preferable to keeping fifty koi on cheap catfish and trout
> chow.

And you're entitled to that opinion as those of us who use these cheaper
feeds are entitled to ours. I don't think I'll be too concerned about my
koi even 50 years from now.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

veeeery interesting. this dying "with no apparent reason" makes me NUTS. last 2 koi
died 3-4 years ago when I did the "post" on the freshest one all I found was wrong
colored eggs ... meaning possible bacterial infection. that is when I netted over
the veggie filter so the birds couldnt bathe in there.
I dont think I have any fish left from my first batch of koi... the ones I fed crap
rancid trout chow to before I learned better. I feel so bad about losing my first
koi, raised em mostly in a 55 gallon tank. they were very friendly when they went
into the pond. Ingrid

"G Pearce" > wrote:
>Cancer is what my cat (mentioned above in thread) had and eventually died
>from, we used to feed our cats Purina brand food. Purina seems to have a lot
>of corn in all of their different pet foods. We are now feeding them Iams
>Multi Cat ("corn grits" are listed as 3rd ingredient) Getting back to the
>fish, when I started ponding 13 yrs ago, I was using Purina Trout Chow -1st
>ingredient, I believe was corn, but I think it was all the fish byproducts
>and oils that were the problem - my 1st 2 koi went from 3" to 18" in 3 yrs
>and died with no visible problems. The 3rd koi from that group died the
>following year of nothing visible other than it went totally blind When I
>started to ask around as to why, I was directed to a koi farm to ask . The
>first question was "what are you feeding them?" With the Purina Trout Chow
>answer, the koi breeder asked me how long do I think I would live if I ate
>at McDonalds 3 meals / day, 7 days a week. He said they use some trout chow
>sparingly to put some size on their koi until their first cull, then high
>quality food to bring out the colours and for health. He also said the
>"Chow" was formulated for trout, catfish and salmon farms to get the fish
>large enough for market as quickly as possible, typically 13 months. The
>effect it has on their internal organs is of no interest to them
> jme Gale :~)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Altum]

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "Altum" > wrote in message
> . net...
>> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>>> Everyone has an opinion worth hearing.
>>
>> I doubt you realize it, but that's an incredibly condescending
>> statement. You are confusing opinion with the science that Ingrid and
>> I are trying to present.
>
> It's not condescending. It's the truth. Everyone's opinion is worth
> hearing. This isn't a communist country. :-)) Science? Have you any
> peer reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA?
> Studies done with control groups and by people with no vested interest
> in any feed company in any way? I honestly looked on the net months
> ago and came up with nothing. Nothing but anecdotes and the glowing
> claims made by those selling such products.
>
>> If you choose to wear blinders and not read veterinary articles and
>> aquaculture literature that's your choice. If you did, you would
>> learn that trout chow and catfish chow are developed for aquacultured
>> trout and catfish, not pet koi.
>
> And yet koi thrive and reproduce on these feeds and I was unable to find
> anything ... see above.
>
> They are designed to provide the cheapest
>> possible food that provides short-term health, rapid growth, and
>> palatable flesh when the fish reaches someone's dinner table. That's
>> not the usual goal for pet fish. I'm sure your fish are fine, but
>> they're not likely to have the same long-term health and extensive
>> lifespan of fish fed diets that have been optimized for koi.
>
> How many of us on this NG are going to still be here 100 years from
> now? If they live 75 years instead of 100 years I'll be happy. :-)
>
>> My OPINION is that keeping five koi on a diet optimized for health and
>> longevity is preferable to keeping fifty koi on cheap catfish and
>> trout chow.
>
> And you're entitled to that opinion as those of us who use these cheaper
> feeds are entitled to ours. I don't think I'll be too concerned about
> my koi even 50 years from now.

Sorry. I totally misunderstood. At the risk of turning this into the
thread that won't die...I typed "aquaculture koi carp diet" into Google
Scholar and a bunch of stuff came up. I don't have time to try to go
through the searches, but maybe there are some unbiased studies.

I'm GLAD your fish are healthy. I tend to fawn over my pets, perhaps a
bit too much. They probably eat better than I do. ;-)

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Koi-Lo]

> wrote in message
...
> I dont think I have any fish left from my first batch of koi... the ones I
> fed crap
> rancid trout chow to before I learned better.
=======
Even the $10 a lb koi chow can be rancid when you buy it depending on how it
was handled between the place where it was made and your fish. I think it's
fair to warn people to CHECK for rancidity no matter what the food costs.
Price is no guarantee it was handled correctly before you purchase it.

Since you evidently can prove it was rancid but you were unable to detect
the rancidity for some reason, I assume you sued the feed co. for at least
the value of your fish.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj]

>On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:47:52 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:

>Have you any peer
>reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA?

See www.akca.org click on menu, click on Koi Health Advisor, click on KHA
Nutrition.

I will check with him to see if he knows of any "studies". ~ jan

-----------------
(Do you know where your water quality is?)

[Koi-Lo]

"~ janj" > wrote in message
...
> >On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:47:52 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
> >wrote:
>
>>Have you any peer
>>reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA?
>
> See www.akca.org click on menu, click on Koi Health Advisor, click on KHA
> Nutrition.

Thanks, I saved it (the PDF) and hope to read it tomorrow.

> I will check with him to see if he knows of any "studies". ~ jan
>
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[ranchu]

Excuse me Ingird,

Who, are saying these things. Documentation, pLease. As some one who
keeps up with that is going on in the Aquaculture world, I have seen
nothing of your claims. Plus I don't know of any product that is corn
based (dog or fish), except one (for fish), and that is not easily
available to the general public, you would have to know about it an go
out of your way to purchase it, so that is probably not the case. Most
corn products that are put into fish foods are corn glutein, which is
high in protein and easily assimulated by fish and is very good for
fish.

So please, tell us of the research and/or documenation that supports
what you have said about the liver problems, etc.

Tom L.L.

[ranchu]

KOI-Lo

You may want to look to see if you have a Purina dealer in your area
and if they will special order you some of the Purina AquaMax brand of
fish food for your stock. It is an excellent food, although it is a
little more expensive that regular catfish foods, around here it runs
about $26 dollars for 50 poounds. I have not bought any this year, so
don't know if there is a price increase, but figure there will be an
increase in price. Fuel prices affect everything. If comes in in all
sizes from powder to pellets, with some floating and sinking varieties.
I get the sinking crumbles because I have only Goldfish. The AquaMax
is a high protein food, but with the fish eating plant materials in the
ponds during the summer it is good choice. I still buy Sho-Gold and
feed it off and on through out the summer for variety.

Tom L.L.

[ranchu]

Jan,

Some of the softer foods that are being manufactured now say not to
freeze the food, but if you are using a "hard" food freezing is fine.
The reason for the freeze band on some of the foods is for the oil
separation, as you suspect, and the fact that some of these oils break
down when frozen making them useless for fish nutrition..

Tom L.L.

[ranchu]

Altum,

I am off work today, so I did what you suggested, using the search you
designated in Google Scholar, "aquaculture koi carp diet" and 149 hits
were listed and not one supported anything that you said. That is not
to say that what you said is not valid, but it does suggest that what
without supporting documentation, it rates semi-close to an opinion,
like several others on this list who depend as not needing to support
their comments with research or quality documentation.

Tom L.L.

[ranchu]

Ingrid,

In case you have forgotten, KOI and Goldfish are Omnivores. They
process proteins and fats, but also process carbohydrates and
therefore, starches. That is why they are Omnivores, and, oh yes, they
eat algae and digest it.

Tom L.L.

[Altum]

ranchu wrote:
> Altum,
>
> I am off work today, so I did what you suggested, using the search you
> designated in Google Scholar, "aquaculture koi carp diet" and 149 hits
> were listed and not one supported anything that you said. That is not
> to say that what you said is not valid, but it does suggest that what
> without supporting documentation, it rates semi-close to an opinion,
> like several others on this list who depend as not needing to support
> their comments with research or quality documentation.
>
> Tom L.L.
>
Well, let's see. First, you seem unwilling and/or unable to provide
quotes so it's rather hard to tell which of my comments you're even
talking about. Do you prefer vague flames to facts? I cited
Untergasser, a well-known authority on fish health. Where are YOUR
references. Hell, where's your netiquette?

*plonk* (I suspect you're too dense to know what that means.)

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Andrew Burgess]

>Some of the softer foods that are being manufactured now say not to
>freeze the food, but if you are using a "hard" food freezing is fine.
>The reason for the freeze ban on some of the foods is for the oil
>separation, as you suspect, and the fact that some of these oils break
>down when frozen making them useless for fish nutrition..

Do you know any more about this? I tried googling but
I only found claims that some vege oils were not harmed by freezing.

I can't imagine a mechanism unless its a combination of seperation and
then oxidation?

Just curious...

[Derek Broughton]

Altum wrote:

> *plonk* (I suspect you're too dense to know what that means.)

Ahhh! It's so refreshing to be back to bashing each other over actual
ponding issues! :-)
--
derek

[Altum]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Altum wrote:
>
>> *plonk* (I suspect you're too dense to know what that means.)
>
> Ahhh! It's so refreshing to be back to bashing each other over actual
> ponding issues! :-)

ROFLMAO! Give me a coffee warning before you do that. Now I gotta
clean the screen off. ;-)

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Derek Broughton]

Altum wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> Altum wrote:
>>
>>> *plonk* (I suspect you're too dense to know what that means.)
>>
>> Ahhh! It's so refreshing to be back to bashing each other over actual
>> ponding issues! :-)
>
> ROFLMAO! Give me a coffee warning before you do that. Now I gotta
> clean the screen off. ;-)
>
Sorry !
--
derek

[Gill Passman]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Altum wrote:
>
>
>>Derek Broughton wrote:
>>
>>>Altum wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>*plonk* (I suspect you're too dense to know what that means.)
>>>
>>>Ahhh! It's so refreshing to be back to bashing each other over actual
>>>ponding issues! :-)
>>
>>ROFLMAO! Give me a coffee warning before you do that. Now I gotta
>>clean the screen off. ;-)
>>
>
> Sorry !

No need to apologise....he,he

[Peter Smith]

Tetra Variety Pond Food is what I use.
I like the popcorn idea.

[~ janj]

One of the articles I pointed out on the AKCA website was written and
taught to the KHA's by Chris Neaves. When I asked about a study he wrote up
his views and told me I could post them. He does not work for any pet food
manufacturing company. You can read about him here:
http://www.happykoi.co.za/Articles/38%20chris%20neaves%20online.htm

In Reply to: Koi Nutritional Studies posted by ~ jan on April 07:

Posting: Hi Jan,
I will try to keep a short story as long as possible!!

Catfish and koi. Koi are not carp – yes they are coloured carp but – they
are bred, raised and kept for their body shape, skin luster and colour.

Koi are not raised as a food source where the only criteria are so many
kilograms per hectare of water and weight of the end product. This means
that the cheaper the input the more profit at the end of the day. A major
cost in fish farming is food. Reduce the food costs and you can increase
the profitability of the farm. (OK - we needed a degree in the obvious for
that statement)

Lets look at catfish compared directly to koi feeds.

Farm-raised cat fish are fed grain based feeds to reduce costs. Catfish can
utilize high percentages of carbohydrate in their diets. Koi can utilize
some carbohydrate in the diet. Cat fish diets vary from manufacturer to
manufacturer but usually contain about 35% corn (usually yellow corn which
is cheaper) + about 22 – 23% wheat middlings, some 5 – 7% meat and bone
meal and some 25% soyabean meal.

That works out to about 60% carbohydrates. The yellow maize is a problem
for koi keepers as it is a pigment that directly affects the white on our
fish. The white back ground is one of the important points of appreciation
on koi.

All this carbohydrate produces digestible energy. As we humans know –
excess energy that is not burned off results in fatty deposits in various
parts of the body. This can shorten life spans. Cat fish diets contain
about 2800 kcal/kg of digestible energy whereas koi diets should not and
most good ones do not exceed around 1500 – 1600 kcal/kg of the diet. That’s
a significant difference in energy in the diet.

Lipids which are a vital and important source of essential Omega 3 and
Omega 6 fatty are kept very low in cat food. Around 1 or 2%. Where as in
koi diets lipids should be 5 – 8%. Some koi diets are kept at 3 – 5% but
this is for shelf life.

If we go deeper into cat fish diets against koi diets and look at the amino
acid profile we find a big difference. Histidine – catfish diets 1.5 : koi
diets 2.1. Valine catfish diets 3.0 but koi must have 3.6. Lysine cat fish
are around 5.0 koi need 5.7. Methiomine – cat fish have 2.3 koi need 3.1.
All significantly different and more importantly koi need more that cat
fish feed.

The vitamins are very important. Vitamin E is not only important in certain
functions of the body but also used as an anti oxidant. In cat fish dies
the level of Vit E is around 25mg/units/kg in koi it is 100mg. Vitamin A is
essential for the skin, catfish diets have 1000 I.U.’s but koi diets have
8000 – 10000 I.U.’s. Vitamin B6 in cat fish food is around 3mg but in koi
it is 6mg. Vitamin C – a very important vitamin is around 60mg in cat food
but around 300mg in koi food.

This is briefly some differences between koi food and catfish food. The
same applies to trout feed (but to a lesser extent) Trout feed has very
high lipids – usually above 12%. In my opinion this is not good for skin
luster on koi.

We must also look at the differences between good koi diets and poor koi
diets. There are many koi foods flooding this country and I am sure your
country as well that have been mass produced in the east. Their companies
often have state subsidies and their labour costs are unbelievably low.
Consequently they sell at very low retail prices.

We did some analysis of a number of “imported” koi foods. More often than
not red and green pellets. Not a single one had the protein content they
claimed on the packaging. Not one had a protein content that koi need. This
was especially true of pellets that were re-packaged. As a matter of fact
their protein content varied between 15 and 18%! Now that’s less than
allowed by law for dog food in this country. Yet they sell tons of it each
month.

Another point to consider. Almost every one of these koi foods had high
peroxide and mould values after analysis. This tells you how fresh the food
is. The imported foods are at least 4 – 6 months old before they get on the
shelves of the shops.

On the other hand there are some excellent imported foods. Not cheap but
very good.

Now the secret is to feed less of a high protein food than more of a cheap
low protein food to your collection.

I hope this helps.
Regards, Chris
------
Now I'm sure some of you will find something wrong with the above, and
that's okay, but I'm not going to debate it with you. As he also mentioned
that one shouldn't get so concerned about people feeding pond grade koi,
alternative (non-koi) foods.

Some of us will, some of us won't and some of us will spoil our pets to the
point they eat better than we do. ;o) Dogs, cats, horses, etc. if not
taken care of require the services of a vet. Fish (thankfully) don't.

Btw, Peter? Last I looked Tetra was pretty high price and had corn in the
1st 3 ingredients. I bet you could find a better quality food for the same
or le$$. I, myself, started out using Tetra, I now use Sho-Koi as the main
feed. At the time, the cost was comparable. ~ jan

-----------------
(Do you know where your water quality is?)

[[email protected]]

Just so everyone knows, Chris Neaves quotes and uses a lot of other peoples work
(best to go to the originals) and he wrote me "I wrote a manual on koi nutrition back
in 1990. I based my own koi food (Shogun Koi Nutrition) on this information."
dont know if it is still available, he lived (lives?) in south africa.
http://www.akca.org/kht/intro.pdf click on his name, scroll down to 1997-2001
Ingrid

~ janj > wrote:

>One of the articles I pointed out on the AKCA website was written and
>taught to the KHA's by Chris Neaves. When I asked about a study he wrote up
>his views and told me I could post them. He does not work for any pet food
>manufacturing company. You can read about him here:
>http://www.happykoi.co.za/Articles/38%20chris%20neaves%20online.htm



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[ranchu]

Andrew,

Sorry, I do not have anything specific. A friend told me about some
papers written on this subject, but he has been going through an
terrible divorce and he has never gotten back to me with info on the
source papers. I believe as you do that it is unlikely. I could see
where oxidation might have an affect, but it you are storing the feed
in air tight containers it should not be a problem.

Tom L.L.

[JB]

Folks,

I've really enjoyed this discussion. I heard a lot from both sides. In the
end, I went with Sho Koi from Western Outdoor. I order some filter pads
because they were needed and it gave me free shipping.


"~ janj" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 19:49:54 GMT, "JB" > wrote:
>
>>I visited a couple of web sites pricing food for this season (Aqua Mart
>>for
>>Hakari Staple & Western Pond for Sho Koi) and noticed a jump in prices.
>>Between the two, Western Pond was offering 10 lbs of Sho Koi for $56.98,
>>including shipping costs. This seems about $7.00 higher than last year.
>>
>>What are you feeding? And, where are you buying it?
>>John
>
> Hi John, I purchased thru Western Outdoor Aquatics/Western Pond. I guess I
> didn't pay attention to the price change. I usually get my Sho Koi, 10
> lbs.
> & Sho Gold at the same time so I get the free shipping. I also ordered a
> box of Manda Fu, so that should cover me for this season.
>
> ~ jan, certified AKCA koi health advisor.
> --------------
> See my ponds and filter design:
> www.jjspond.us
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

[~ janj]

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:42:05 GMT, "JB" > wrote:

>I've really enjoyed this discussion. I heard a lot from both sides. In the
>end, I went with Sho Koi from Western Outdoor. I order some filter pads
>because they were needed and it gave me free shipping.

Yea, that free shipping will encourage you every time (especially now
days). ;-) I usually get the 10 lb bag of Sho Koi, which puts me under the
limit for free shipping, but I add Sho Gold, for the goldfish, which gets
me up there. ~ jan


-----------------
(Do you know where your water quality is?)