Anyone know what's wrong with my betta?

[muddyfox]

Hi,

I bought a new betta a few weeks ago and noticed some spots on him as
soon as I got him home. (I bought from a lsf I have never used before
and will never use again now - I found out later that they had a bad
whitespot problem and were still selling the fish regardless.) At the
time it looked like very typical white spot and not much else (a few
small white sugar grain type spots on pectoral fin and on flank near
operculum) so I treated it using a malachite green based med by King
British but saw little change after two weeks (which was much longer
than I have ever had to treat before). The only difference was that
some of his old spots fell off and new ones appeared.

After taking some advice I cleared the tank of the old meds - put in
some active carbon (new to replace that which I had removed before
starting to medicate.) 48 hours wait and 3 X 50 % water changes and I
then gave protozin a try (by waterlife) which I think is methylene blue
based (being sure to remove the carbon again before dosing). I thought
it would be good to try because it is a broader ranging anti-parasitic
than the white spot. However this seemed to have even less effect than
the King British Med. The Ich got worse.

After more advice I tried adding aquarium salt and raising the
temperature to 85F. This seemed to have some effect but the betta
seemed very uncomfortable at that temperature and started sitting in
plants at the bottom of the tank with his fins spead out as if he was
trying to cool himself. I kept the tank like this for 3 days but gave
up on it in the end because I was worried about him being too hot.

I'm now trying the Interpet Whitespot treatment. I am on day 5 of this
now and the betta is not looking very much better. The typical Ich
spots are finally getting less (which is good) but now he seems to have
this white stuff under some of his scales which sometimes dangles out
and sometimes disappears (see picture at
http://www.muddylittletaoist.org.uk/betta-white-under-scales.jpg and at
http://www.muddylittletaoist.org.uk/betta-probs.jpg). ?anchor worm
?skin flukes? It seems that he might have more than one parasite
problem. I wouldn't be surprised given the things I've heard about the
shop in question since I got him.

Tank conditions are:

NH3/NH4+ = 0 ppm
NO2 = 0 ppm
NO3 = 15 ppm (same as tap water)

Tank is 5 gallons (Imp) and is filtered and kept at 80F. I have 8
watts of light, plants and am running air bubbles to keep the O2 up
with the meds in. Normal waterchanges are 50% twice weekly but I've
had to adjust that around the meds (doing changes just before next
dose.)

Other behvaioural signs include flashing and hiding out at the bottom
of the tank (definitely not normal for him).

I really want this little guy to get better but I am all out of ideas.
I've tried everything I know and taken advice of very experienced
fishkeepers near here and still have a problem. All meds have been
given exactly according to manufacturer's instructions. I've never
experienced a fish illness which is so difficult to get on top of.
Have I misdiagnosed this? Does the betta have multiple problems? Or
am I doing something else wrong? I've successfully treated whitespot
before but nothing is getting him clean and well - I just don't know
where to go from here.

Please can you guys give me some advice? Have any of you ever had a
really persistant Ich problem? Or does he have another problem too? I
am quite prepared to tear down the tank - I can put the betta in the QT
tank while I do it (although it's not cycled.) Or maybe I should buy a
UV sterilizer (although I'm secretly hoping to win one in an offer in
PFK magazine). Maybe I can borrow one? At this point I will try
whatever works and is in the best interest of my fish.

Sorry to have rambled - I'm quite upset about all of this.

Thanks,

Muddy

[Nikki]

"muddyfox" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I bought a new betta a few weeks ago and noticed some spots on him as
> soon as I got him home. (I bought from a lsf I have never used before
> and will never use again now - I found out later that they had a bad
> whitespot problem and were still selling the fish regardless.) At the
> time it looked like very typical white spot and not much else (a few
> small white sugar grain type spots on pectoral fin and on flank near
> operculum) so I treated it using a malachite green based med by King
> British but saw little change after two weeks (which was much longer
> than I have ever had to treat before). The only difference was that
> some of his old spots fell off and new ones appeared.
>
> After taking some advice I cleared the tank of the old meds - put in
> some active carbon (new to replace that which I had removed before
> starting to medicate.) 48 hours wait and 3 X 50 % water changes and I
> then gave protozin a try (by waterlife) which I think is methylene blue
> based (being sure to remove the carbon again before dosing). I thought
> it would be good to try because it is a broader ranging anti-parasitic
> than the white spot. However this seemed to have even less effect than
> the King British Med. The Ich got worse.
>
> After more advice I tried adding aquarium salt and raising the
> temperature to 85F. This seemed to have some effect but the betta
> seemed very uncomfortable at that temperature and started sitting in
> plants at the bottom of the tank with his fins spead out as if he was
> trying to cool himself. I kept the tank like this for 3 days but gave
> up on it in the end because I was worried about him being too hot.
>
> I'm now trying the Interpet Whitespot treatment. I am on day 5 of this
> now and the betta is not looking very much better. The typical Ich
> spots are finally getting less (which is good) but now he seems to have
> this white stuff under some of his scales which sometimes dangles out
> and sometimes disappears (see picture at
> http://www.muddylittletaoist.org.uk/betta-white-under-scales.jpg and at
> http://www.muddylittletaoist.org.uk/betta-probs.jpg). ?anchor worm
> ?skin flukes? It seems that he might have more than one parasite
> problem. I wouldn't be surprised given the things I've heard about the
> shop in question since I got him.
>
> Tank conditions are:
>
> NH3/NH4+ = 0 ppm
> NO2 = 0 ppm
> NO3 = 15 ppm (same as tap water)
>
> Tank is 5 gallons (Imp) and is filtered and kept at 80F. I have 8
> watts of light, plants and am running air bubbles to keep the O2 up
> with the meds in. Normal waterchanges are 50% twice weekly but I've
> had to adjust that around the meds (doing changes just before next
> dose.)
>
> Other behvaioural signs include flashing and hiding out at the bottom
> of the tank (definitely not normal for him).
>
> I really want this little guy to get better but I am all out of ideas.
> I've tried everything I know and taken advice of very experienced
> fishkeepers near here and still have a problem. All meds have been
> given exactly according to manufacturer's instructions. I've never
> experienced a fish illness which is so difficult to get on top of.
> Have I misdiagnosed this? Does the betta have multiple problems? Or
> am I doing something else wrong? I've successfully treated whitespot
> before but nothing is getting him clean and well - I just don't know
> where to go from here.
>
> Please can you guys give me some advice? Have any of you ever had a
> really persistant Ich problem? Or does he have another problem too? I
> am quite prepared to tear down the tank - I can put the betta in the QT
> tank while I do it (although it's not cycled.) Or maybe I should buy a
> UV sterilizer (although I'm secretly hoping to win one in an offer in
> PFK magazine). Maybe I can borrow one? At this point I will try
> whatever works and is in the best interest of my fish.
>
> Sorry to have rambled - I'm quite upset about all of this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Muddy
>

Sorry about Mr. betta....it is frustrating when you buy them thinking they
are fine and they end up sick, My blue betta, who was wrote about all over
these boards went though the same thing, I paid 5.99$ for him, he ended up
costing so much more. However after a month he is on the road back to
healthy.
I seen your pic of your betta, Its hard to tell in pics but it does look
like ich, how small are the white spots, the size of a piece of salt or
bigger, any chance its fungus?
I know a lot of people on here know more about disease then me, but I can
tell you what I did when I was having problems with a couple of mine. I had
one with ich and another with fungus, I'm not sure what your dealing with so
I'll tell you both.
I have never used the meds you mentioned, so I am not sure about those. I
have used Rid ich+ for ich and its worked well for me, usually I don't see
no white spots after two days (but you need to treat longer then that)
I have also used applus+ antifungus, which is 2 treatments every 48 hours.
it also works well for fungus.

For my betta who had ich and unlike the others I could not get rid of it I
think because it was sick when I got it so not in good shape to start with.
I emptied the tank the only thing I left in it was the heater and a air
stone, no rocks, plants, filter ect. I used a 2 gl tank, Used the Rid ich+
every day till I seen no more spots, then continued to treat every three
days for two weeks, during that time I did complete water changes if not
every day every other day with premixed water, 1 teaspoon of aquarium salt
to 2 gallons of water. kept the heat at 82 degree's, At the end of the two
weeks it was gone.

Betta w/ fungus or tail/fin rot, after trying other things and him getting
close to dying, I got a betta bowl I guess they are 1/2 gl of water, maybe
less, again used nothing in it and use the premixed water 1 teaspoon
aquarium salt to 2 gl of water, changed his water every day, only feed a few
pieces of food at a time so none was left in water, used applus+ antifungus
the first day then again two days later, that was one treatment since he was
in bad shape I started another treatment after two days, so he got four
doses of the med over a weeks time, I started to see a change soon after,
after the meds I used melafix which I am still using, and he is now growing
his tail/fin back and eating a lot.
(if you put the betta in anything that is unable to have a heater make sure
they are in a warm room)

I don't know if either will help you at all, I also found some good pages on
betta disease I will post below for you, incase you have not seen them. I
really hope you are able to help him get better. Is there any change he is
being re-infected by the net, vacuum, or anything else that is being used in
the tank? I have found that with any betta disease complete water changes
help a lot, I think in cases where treatments are not working and your
unable to figure out why ......sometimes it best to go to the bare minimum,
removing things in the tank were it might be hiding or not getting taken
care of. How come you think it might be parasites, do you mean something
other then ich

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/bettadiseases.htm
http://www.bettacentral.com/disease.htm
http://majesticbettas.com/diseases.htm
http://www.bettatalk.com/betta_diseases.htm

nik

[muddyfox]

Hi Nikki,

Thanks for your input. It's really quite distressing when a fish is
sick for this long. I really appreciate your taking the time to send
such a detailed meassage. I live in England and I think we have
different fish meds available here - I'm not sure I can get Rid-Ich or
the anti fungal you mentioned. I may well try to clear the tank a bit
though - give it less places for the bug to hide.

The betta is actually worse today. I suspect that, although he had Ich
as well to start with, what I'm dealing with now is not Ich. There's
no way it could have survived the treatments I've given and the spots
look slightly bigger than salt grains. I think he may have some kind
of parasite which seems to sit under an individual scale. If this is
the problem then I think I will need to treat for that. Interpet
number 12 (I think - will have to look it up).

Thanks again for your help - much appreciated,

Muddy

[muddyfox]

Hi Flash,

Thanks for the info. Do you know if Meth blue will deal with parasites
like anchor worm too? The more I look at him the more I think he seems
to have parasites which sit one under a single scale. If I watch for
long enough they seem to move but I can't work out if they are moving
themselves or if their movement is just caused by the fish scales
moving as the betta swims. What confuses me is that anchor worm is
usually bigger than this. Perhaps it's another parasite of a similar
kind. I have to wait a week now before I can treat with anything else.
I'm trying to get a treatment plan sorted out in that time.

Thanks again,

Muddy

[Koi-Lo]

"muddyfox" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Flash,
>
> Thanks for the info. Do you know if Meth blue will deal with parasites
> like anchor worm too? The more I look at him the more I think he seems
> to have parasites which sit one under a single scale.
==================
Have you looked on some of the fish disease sites to see if you can find the
parasite you think it has? Do all the scales look like something is under
them? Are they sort of standing up - does the fish kind of look like a
pinecone?
--
Koi-Lo.... the ReelMcKoi
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gill Passman]

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "muddyfox" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>> Hi Flash,
>>
>> Thanks for the info. Do you know if Meth blue will deal with parasites
>> like anchor worm too? The more I look at him the more I think he seems
>> to have parasites which sit one under a single scale.
>
> ==================
> Have you looked on some of the fish disease sites to see if you can find
> the parasite you think it has? Do all the scales look like something is
> under them? Are they sort of standing up - does the fish kind of look
> like a pinecone?

Try this link for checking out fish disease...as it is a UK site
hopefully it should list meds available in the UK


http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/index.htm

Gill

[muddyfox]

Yes, I've had a good look through the list of fish diseases, in my
books and on the net and my best guess would still be a parasite -
either a type of worm similar to anchor worm or some kind of large skin
fluke. It doesn't look like dropsy with all the scales standing up.
Maybe ten to fifteen scales on the whole fish seem to have this white
thing under them which appears to wriggle. The scales don't stand up -
the white thing pokes out from under them while they remain in a normal
position. It's not something I've ever seen before. (Probably my
inexperience showing here.) The second photo I took (see first post in
this thread) shows them quite clearly, especially if you look along the
upper edge of the fish shown. I'd get some more photo's but it's
really hard to get good shots of a flashing fish. The two I put up
were the only good ones in quite a few shots.

Many thanks,

Muddy

[Koi-Lo]

"muddyfox" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Yes, I've had a good look through the list of fish diseases, in my
> books and on the net and my best guess would still be a parasite -
> either a type of worm similar to anchor worm or some kind of large skin
> fluke. It doesn't look like dropsy with all the scales standing up.
> Maybe ten to fifteen scales on the whole fish seem to have this white
> thing under them which appears to wriggle.

If they're extremely small they could be some kind of body Fluke (use
Clout).

The scales don't stand up -
> the white thing pokes out from under them while they remain in a normal
> position. It's not something I've ever seen before.

I haven't either and have had fish for ages. :-(

(Probably my
> inexperience showing here.) The second photo I took (see first post in
> this thread) shows them quite clearly, especially if you look along the
> upper edge of the fish shown. I'd get some more photo's but it's
> really hard to get good shots of a flashing fish. The two I put up
> were the only good ones in quite a few shots.

Where did you put the pics? I don't see them on the binary group.
--
Koi-Lo.... the ReelMcKoi
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Flash Wilson]

On 11 Apr 2006 01:16:13 -0700, muddyfox > wrote:
>Yes, I've had a good look through the list of fish diseases, in my
>books and on the net and my best guess would still be a parasite -

Hmmm, Meth blue is meant to work with protozoan parasites but
for something like flukes I would try a waterlife treatment,
I used sterazin for an eye fluke and it was successful but took
a while - you could see it getting smaller over time... I don't
rate interpet apart from generic stuff like meth blue, but waterlife
treatments are good. Sounds like sterazin would do the job for you.

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

[muddyfox]

Koi-Lo wrote:

>
> Where did you put the pics? I don't see them on the binary group.

Sorry - I posted them to my own website at
www.muddylittletaoist.org.uk/betta-probs.jpg and
www.muddylittletaoist.org.uk/betta-white-under-scales.jpg I read
this newsgroup through Google Groups and had no idea there was a
binary. LOL

Do you have the binary name? I can post there quite easily if you
can't link to the site they're on.

Thanks again,

Muddy

[Koi-Lo]

"muddyfox" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>
>>
>> Where did you put the pics? I don't see them on the binary group.
>
> Sorry - I posted them to my own website at
> www.muddylittletaoist.org.uk/betta-probs.jpg and
> www.muddylittletaoist.org.uk/betta-white-under-scales.jpg I read
> this newsgroup through Google Groups and had no idea there was a
> binary. LOL

Why don't you use a FREE newsserver like I do. It's so much faster and
easier than Google. You don't even need to log on to some of them, just add
them to your news-reader.

> Do you have the binary name? I can post there quite easily if you
> can't link to the site they're on.

Yes, it's alt.binaries.aquaria. The pics aren't dead clear but this looks
like a parasite to me. I've never seen or even heard of what this fish has.
I would use Clout or whatever you can get that kills fluke-like parasites
and follow the directions on the package. Quick-Cure may also work. Be
careful not to cross-contaminate since you have no idea what this is. Keep
everything that comes in contact with this fish separate.
--
Koi-Lo.... the ReelMcKoi
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Flash Wilson]

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:12:08 -0500, Koi-Lo > wrote:
>Yes, it's alt.binaries.aquaria. The pics aren't dead clear but this looks
>like a parasite to me. I've never seen or even heard of what this fish has.
>I would use Clout or whatever you can get that kills fluke-like parasites
>and follow the directions on the package. Quick-Cure may also work.

Never heard of those products in the UK :(

's why I recommended sterazin.

I think our rules are tighter; we can't get antibiotics without a vet
visit, I got someone to buy me some in the USA but luckily the expiry
date passed without needing them. But the point stands, we basically
have waterlife and interpet treatments as the main ranges in stores here.
Of which I dig waterlife and diss interpet :)

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org