Too many fish?

[Jay Kaner]

Hi group.

I'm very new to keeping fish and I'd like to check something out that has
been said to me about the number of fish I have in my tank. The tank is 24"
x 15" x 12"

I bought the tank off a guy just short of 3 months ago. The fish that came
with it were 2 black moors, a fantail goldfish, a golden orf, a black widow
and a male fighting fish. Since then I have added...

5 zebra danio's
3 mountain minnows
1 albino red tail shark
2 guppies
2 platys

I have been told that there is way too many fish in a tank that size and it
will stress the fish out. Is this a fair comment? All the fish get along
fine. One of the guppies picks on the smaller guppy, and he hides a lot and
the danio's are always chasing each other around. Other than that it seems
a peaceful tank. They all leave each other alone and seem happy enough.

I really wanted to add a shoal of 10 neon tetras to it but now i'm not too
sure what to do.

Obviously if the tank *is* over-crowded then i'll give the neon's a miss.

Saying that, I saw an advert for a same sized tank for sale that had 47 fish
in it. Didn't say what fish they were tho'.

I'd appreciate any advice

[Koi-Lo]

"Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
...
> Hi group.
>
> I'm very new to keeping fish and I'd like to check something out that has
> been said to me about the number of fish I have in my tank. The tank is
> 24" x 15" x 12"
>
> I bought the tank off a guy just short of 3 months ago. The fish that
> came with it were 2 black moors, a fantail goldfish, a golden orf, a black
> widow and a male fighting fish. Since then I have added...
===================
The goldfish alone need 30g (about 10g per goldfish until mature, then at
least 15g each) of water as they grow large in time and are a dirty fish,
meaning they eat a lot and pass a lot of waste when well cared for.
--
Koi-Lo.... the ReelMcKoi
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[MangroveJack]

Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
of fish you want. While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
conditions.

It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.

More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.

You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
water, who are more prone to disease.


At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
your hard-alkaline dominant situation).

I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.

[Nikki]

"MangroveJack" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
> of fish you want. While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
> another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
> optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
> conditions.
>
> It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
> soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
> hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.
>
> More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
> doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
> with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
> water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
> filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.
>
> You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
> keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
> alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
> add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
> goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
> water, who are more prone to disease.
>
>
> At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
> matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
> have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
> most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
> time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
> better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
> would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
> fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
> over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
> regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
> neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
> your hard-alkaline dominant situation).
>
> I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
> that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
> bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
> in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
> keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.
>

how many gallons is that?
NIk

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.
"Nikki" > wrote in message
...
>
> "MangroveJack" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
> > of fish you want. While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
> > another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
> > optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
> > conditions.
> >
> > It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
> > soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
> > hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.
> >
> > More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
> > doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
> > with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
> > water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
> > filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.
> >
> > You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
> > keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
> > alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
> > add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
> > goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
> > water, who are more prone to disease.
> >
> >
> > At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
> > matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
> > have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
> > most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
> > time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
> > better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
> > would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
> > fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
> > over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
> > regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
> > neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
> > your hard-alkaline dominant situation).
> >
> > I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
> > that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
> > bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
> > in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
> > keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.
> >
>
> how many gallons is that?
> NIk
>
>

Approximately 18 usa gallons, I have calculated it from a formula in an old
aquarium book (height times by width times by length divided by 231).
Hopefully the original poster changes 20 percent (or more) of his aquarium
water per day if he really is keeping that many fish in such a relatively
small aquarium if he wants long term success with it. Good luck and later!

[Altum]

Jay Kaner wrote:
> Hi group.
>
> I'm very new to keeping fish and I'd like to check something out that has
> been said to me about the number of fish I have in my tank. The tank is 24"
> x 15" x 12"
>
> I bought the tank off a guy just short of 3 months ago. The fish that came
> with it were 2 black moors, a fantail goldfish, a golden orf, a black widow
> and a male fighting fish. Since then I have added...
>
> 5 zebra danio's
> 3 mountain minnows
> 1 albino red tail shark
> 2 guppies
> 2 platys
>
> I have been told that there is way too many fish in a tank that size and it
> will stress the fish out. Is this a fair comment? All the fish get along
> fine. One of the guppies picks on the smaller guppy, and he hides a lot and
> the danio's are always chasing each other around. Other than that it seems
> a peaceful tank. They all leave each other alone and seem happy enough.
>
> I really wanted to add a shoal of 10 neon tetras to it but now i'm not too
> sure what to do.
>
> Obviously if the tank *is* over-crowded then i'll give the neon's a miss.
>
> Saying that, I saw an advert for a same sized tank for sale that had 47 fish
> in it. Didn't say what fish they were tho'.
>
> I'd appreciate any advice

I hope you're mistaken about the ID of that golden orfe. Golden orfe
(Leuciscus idus ) will usually grow to about 16" and should be kept in a
large pond. As your orfe grows, it will find fish like white clouds and
neons to be tasty snacks. You might want to find the poor fellow a pond
home before he gets too big.

As Koi-Lo pointed out, a 20 gallon tank (yours is a size often called a
20 high) is a decent home to TWO grown goldfish. Definitely give the
neons a miss. Also keep an eye on the red-tailed shark. They often
become fairly aggressive when they mature.

As the goldfish and orfe grow, your tank will reach a state where the
fish are completely dependent on airstones and the filter for adequate
oxygenation (if you're not already there). Overstocked tanks can lose a
lot of fish in power failures because the surface area of the water
can't exchange enough oxygen.

As for the 20 gallon tank with 47 fish, either they were tiny or pretty
overcrowded. You could probably have a pretty neat tank with 47 neons
if you kept up on the water changes.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Altum]

MangroveJack wrote:

> I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
> that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
> bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
> in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
> keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.

How'd you do that? It must have been a spectacular tank with that many
neons - I've always wanted a tank full of neons or cardinals. If you
don't mind my asking, how long did you run that setup?

I wouldn't have though to try more than 50 or so neons in a 20 gallon
tank, although I think I had about 40 guppies in my planted 10 gallon
for a while. I was changing 50% of the water twice a week to keep them
healthy and growing.

BTW, I didn't realize you were posting from Google. To quote someone's
post and reply, click on the "show options" link at the top of the post.
Then click the new "Reply" link that appears at the top of the post.
The quoted content is there, prefaced with ">".

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Nikki]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> Bottom posted.
> "Nikki" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "MangroveJack" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
>> > of fish you want. While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
>> > another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
>> > optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
>> > conditions.
>> >
>> > It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
>> > soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
>> > hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.
>> >
>> > More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
>> > doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
>> > with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
>> > water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
>> > filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.
>> >
>> > You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
>> > keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
>> > alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
>> > add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
>> > goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
>> > water, who are more prone to disease.
>> >
>> >
>> > At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
>> > matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
>> > have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
>> > most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
>> > time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
>> > better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
>> > would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
>> > fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
>> > over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
>> > regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
>> > neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
>> > your hard-alkaline dominant situation).
>> >
>> > I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
>> > that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
>> > bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
>> > in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
>> > keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.
>> >
>>
>> how many gallons is that?
>> NIk
>>
>>
>
> Approximately 18 usa gallons, I have calculated it from a formula in an
> old
> aquarium book (height times by width times by length divided by 231).
> Hopefully the original poster changes 20 percent (or more) of his aquarium
> water per day if he really is keeping that many fish in such a relatively
> small aquarium if he wants long term success with it. Good luck and later!
>
>
18 gl?? If that is correct he needs to go get another tank, even with water
changes that is to many fish and not only that to many different types that
dont like the same conditions, i would start by getting the betta out in his
own tank or in a tank with fish that like the same conditions, and getting
another set up for the goldfish.
nik

[Jay Kaner]

"Jay Kaner" > wrote
>
> I'd appreciate any advice

Which you've all given, and a big thank you to you all for that.

After reading all the replies it seems the tank is a bit over crowded. Tho'
with regular water changes, as per the advice, it shouldn't be too bad.

I bought this tank to see how I would enjoy keeping fish, which I do. I
have room for a 4 foot tank and thought if I enjoy having the fish then I
would upgrade to a 4 foot tank and sell the smaller one.

But from what i can gather it's not the best idea to have the coldwater fish
with the tropical ones ( the fella I bought it off said that wasn't a
problem keeping them together. He said you couldn't keep tropical fish in a
cold water set up but you could keep cold water fish in a tropical set up)

So what I am thinking now is to get a 4foot tank and put the tropical fish
in there and keep the smaller tank as a cold water one for the cold water
fish. I *have* to keep them because my daughter loves the fantail and the
black moors (because the black moors look like E.T!! they're E.T 1 and E.T
2)

All the fish I've added are tropical, I know that for sure. And out of the
ones that came with the tank, the fighting fish is too.
The fantail, the orfe (that's what the guy i bought it off said it was
called) and the black moors are cold water (please let me know if I am wrong
with this) It's just the black widow i'm not sure which tank to put him/her
in.

With a bit of luck I should be getting the bigger tank soon. I'm keeping my
eyes open for one in the local classified ads and ebay for when the right
price/distance to pick up comes along.

I think under the circumstances this is about the best way for getting the
best balance. Separate tanks for cold and tropical. I won't get the neon's
till then.

Thanks again to all who replied. Very helpful...even if some of it went
whoosh!!!! Like i said, I am new to this. But I'm finding it enjoyable so
I will learn as I go along.

[Jay Kaner]

One other question I meant to ask in that last post. When doing the water
changes and gravel cleaning is it best to remove the fish? That's what I've
been doing so far, but could this be done with the fish still in the tank?

[Mariachi]

I always clean the tank with the fish still inside. The fish just swims
around, mines are very friendly and I have to sho them away from the
gravel vac so they don't get sucked up.

[Jay Kaner]

"Mariachi" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I always clean the tank with the fish still inside. The fish just swims
> around, mines are very friendly and I have to sho them away from the
> gravel vac so they don't get sucked up.

lol. That's what i was thinking...don't want to be sucking 'em up the
gravel vac!!

I'll leave the fish in next time i do it. Just keep my eye on the smaller
ones, just in case!!

Cheers ;-)

[Gill Passman]

Jay Kaner wrote:
> "Mariachi" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>I always clean the tank with the fish still inside. The fish just swims
>>around, mines are very friendly and I have to sho them away from the
>>gravel vac so they don't get sucked up.
>
>
> lol. That's what i was thinking...don't want to be sucking 'em up the
> gravel vac!!
>
> I'll leave the fish in next time i do it. Just keep my eye on the smaller
> ones, just in case!!
>
> Cheers ;-)
>
>

The bigger ones might nibble your hands...mine do....

Gill

[Koi-Lo]

"Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
...
> With a bit of luck I should be getting the bigger tank soon. I'm keeping
> my eyes open for one in the local classified ads and ebay for when the
> right price/distance to pick up comes along.
====================
Also check your secondhand stores like Goodwill and the Salvation Army.
People do donate unwanted tanks to these places.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria Groups.*
Aquarium FAQ are at: http://faq.thekrib.com/
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

"Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
...
> One other question I meant to ask in that last post. When doing the water
> changes and gravel cleaning is it best to remove the fish? That's what
> I've been doing so far, but could this be done with the fish still in the
> tank?
=====================
NO! Just use the gravel vac, remove the water you feel you want to replace
and replace with fresh water of a close temperature. Make sure to use a
dechlorinator or something to remove chloramines.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria Groups.*
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jay Kaner]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote
> "Jay Kaner" > wrote

>> With a bit of luck I should be getting the bigger tank soon. I'm keeping
>> my eyes open for one in the local classified ads and ebay for when the
>> right price/distance to pick up comes along.
> ====================
> Also check your secondhand stores like Goodwill and the Salvation Army.
> People do donate unwanted tanks to these places.

Yeah that's a good idea. There's 5 or 6 charity shops close by and i'll
keep popping in to check.

[Jay Kaner]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Kaner wrote:
>> "Mariachi" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>>I always clean the tank with the fish still inside. The fish just swims
>>>around, mines are very friendly and I have to sho them away from the
>>>gravel vac so they don't get sucked up.
>>
>>
>> lol. That's what i was thinking...don't want to be sucking 'em up the
>> gravel vac!!
>>
>> I'll leave the fish in next time i do it. Just keep my eye on the
>> smaller ones, just in case!!
>>
>> Cheers ;-)
>
> The bigger ones might nibble your hands...mine do....

HA!! They do!! Well the fantail and the black moors do whenever i put my
hands in to arrange the ornaments, rocks or plants. None of the other fish
do, but those 3 always do.

My daughter (5 y/o) loves it. Those 3 will also take the fish flakes from
your fingertips at feeding time. She loves that even more...always makes
her laugh when they do it!!!!

[Jay Kaner]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
> ...
>> One other question I meant to ask in that last post. When doing the
>> water changes and gravel cleaning is it best to remove the fish? That's
>> what I've been doing so far, but could this be done with the fish still
>> in the tank?
> =====================
> NO!

Do you mean "no" to doing this with the fish still in the tank? Or to
removing the fish beforehand? I'm not sure which you mean.

> Just use the gravel vac, remove the water you feel you want to replace and
> replace with fresh water of a close temperature.

The tank takes 8 buckets of water to fill (the guy gave me the bucket that
he's always used) so what I've been doing is once a week I take the fish out
into a big bowl filled with tank water. Then I vacuum the gravel until I've
filled two buckets with the mucky water and that's it. No more than that.
Then I replace those two buckets with the same amount making sure the water
is a similar temp. Then i replace the fish and the old tank water from the
bowl that i put them in whilst i did the gravel cleaning.

> Make sure to use a dechlorinator or something to remove chloramines.

I've been using the stuff the guy had been using. He had half a bottle of
'Tap Safe' left which he gave me. He said to use a capful per bucket. It
says on the bottle that it's for goldfish, but the guy said it's ok to use
with tropical fish because it hadn't harmed the betta. Would you say it
would be better to buy a tropical (assuming there is one) 'tap safe' product
rather than keep using the goldfish one?

To be fair, I've had the tank nearly 3 months and all the fish seem healthy.
So far (touch wood) we've had no casualties...tho' how much that has to do
with good luck i'm not sure. I'd rather it be down to doing the right thing
than luck, tho'!!

[Mister Gardener]

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:14:55 GMT, "Jay Kaner" > wrote:

>
>"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> One other question I meant to ask in that last post. When doing the
>>> water changes and gravel cleaning is it best to remove the fish? That's
>>> what I've been doing so far, but could this be done with the fish still
>>> in the tank?
>> =====================
>> NO!
>
>Do you mean "no" to doing this with the fish still in the tank? Or to
>removing the fish beforehand? I'm not sure which you mean.
>
>> Just use the gravel vac, remove the water you feel you want to replace and
>> replace with fresh water of a close temperature.
>
>The tank takes 8 buckets of water to fill (the guy gave me the bucket that
>he's always used) so what I've been doing is once a week I take the fish out
>into a big bowl filled with tank water. Then I vacuum the gravel until I've
>filled two buckets with the mucky water and that's it. No more than that.
>Then I replace those two buckets with the same amount making sure the water
>is a similar temp. Then i replace the fish and the old tank water from the
>bowl that i put them in whilst i did the gravel cleaning.
>
>> Make sure to use a dechlorinator or something to remove chloramines.
>
>I've been using the stuff the guy had been using. He had half a bottle of
>'Tap Safe' left which he gave me. He said to use a capful per bucket. It
>says on the bottle that it's for goldfish, but the guy said it's ok to use
>with tropical fish because it hadn't harmed the betta. Would you say it
>would be better to buy a tropical (assuming there is one) 'tap safe' product
>rather than keep using the goldfish one?
>
>To be fair, I've had the tank nearly 3 months and all the fish seem healthy.
>So far (touch wood) we've had no casualties...tho' how much that has to do
>with good luck i'm not sure. I'd rather it be down to doing the right thing
>than luck, tho'!!
>
You can leave the fish in the tank while you do your water change and
gravel vacuum. Two buckets is 25% of 8 buckets, and that sounds like a
good amount for one change. Interpet Tap Safe will take care of the
chlorine and chloramines in your tap water, use it as the label
directs. Welcome to the aquaria groups.

Everything Aquaria & Tropical Fish at The Krib:
http://www.thekrib.com/
For Killfile FAQs visit
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/killfilefaq.htm

[Jay Kaner]

"Mister Gardener" > wrote

> You can leave the fish in the tank while you do your water change and
> gravel vacuum.

Ah good!! That'll make life a little bit easier. Those zebra danios are
fast and hard to catch!! It can take as long to catch all the fish as it
does to clean the tank!!

Two buckets is 25% of 8 buckets, and that sounds like a
> good amount for one change. Interpet Tap Safe will take care of the
> chlorine and chloramines in your tap water, use it as the label
> directs.

Right. I'll keep on doing it like that then. Like i said, they all seem
happy enough. I can't wait to get another tank and start from scratch. I
really like the look of those tanks that are filled with live plants. Think
i'll go for that more natural look.

> Welcome to the aquaria groups.

Thanks!! And very helpful it's been n'all. Gleaned some useful info from
some of the other posts in here too, so i'll keep subbed because, no doubt,
i'll be needing more advice as i go along!! Cheers.

[Nikki]

"Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Kaner" > wrote
>>
>> I'd appreciate any advice
>
> Which you've all given, and a big thank you to you all for that.
>
> After reading all the replies it seems the tank is a bit over crowded.
> Tho' with regular water changes, as per the advice, it shouldn't be too
> bad.
>
> I bought this tank to see how I would enjoy keeping fish, which I do. I
> have room for a 4 foot tank and thought if I enjoy having the fish then I
> would upgrade to a 4 foot tank and sell the smaller one.
>
> But from what i can gather it's not the best idea to have the coldwater
> fish with the tropical ones ( the fella I bought it off said that wasn't a
> problem keeping them together. He said you couldn't keep tropical fish in
> a cold water set up but you could keep cold water fish in a tropical set
> up)
>
> So what I am thinking now is to get a 4foot tank and put the tropical fish
> in there and keep the smaller tank as a cold water one for the cold water
> fish. I *have* to keep them because my daughter loves the fantail and
> the black moors (because the black moors look like E.T!! they're E.T 1 and
> E.T 2)
>
> All the fish I've added are tropical, I know that for sure. And out of
> the ones that came with the tank, the fighting fish is too.
> The fantail, the orfe (that's what the guy i bought it off said it was
> called) and the black moors are cold water (please let me know if I am
> wrong with this) It's just the black widow i'm not sure which tank to put
> him/her in.
>
> With a bit of luck I should be getting the bigger tank soon. I'm keeping
> my eyes open for one in the local classified ads and ebay for when the
> right price/distance to pick up comes along.
>
> I think under the circumstances this is about the best way for getting the
> best balance. Separate tanks for cold and tropical. I won't get the
> neon's till then.
>
> Thanks again to all who replied. Very helpful...even if some of it went
> whoosh!!!! Like i said, I am new to this. But I'm finding it enjoyable
> so I will learn as I go along.
>
>
Its a nice hobby to have.....relaxing when things are going well, stressful
other times, but always enjoyable
And dont feel bad about it, at least you took the time to find out what was
best for them, and are going to invest in a better tank, more then what a
lot of people do....so its all good
I am in complete understading about kids & goldfish, i started my son a
goldfish tank with moors, fantail, redcaps, telescope eyes, and he enjoys
them so much, now he has me talked into having a pond in the summer for
them.
Watch the betta while in the tank with the goldfish......sometimes they get
picky
Nik

[Koi-Lo]

"Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> One other question I meant to ask in that last post. When doing the
>>> water changes and gravel cleaning is it best to remove the fish? That's
>>> what I've been doing so far, but could this be done with the fish still
>>> in the tank?
>> =====================
>> NO!
>
> Do you mean "no" to doing this with the fish still in the tank? Or to
> removing the fish beforehand? I'm not sure which you mean.

NO NOT remove the fish while doing it.

>> Just use the gravel vac, remove the water you feel you want to replace
>> and replace with fresh water of a close temperature.

> The tank takes 8 buckets of water to fill (the guy gave me the bucket that
> he's always used) so what I've been doing is once a week I take the fish
> out into a big bowl filled with tank water. Then I vacuum the gravel
> until I've filled two buckets with the mucky water and that's it. No more
> than that. Then I replace those two buckets with the same amount making
> sure the water is a similar temp. Then i replace the fish and the old
> tank water from the bowl that i put them in whilst i did the gravel
> cleaning.

Do the same thing but don't remove the fish.

Be sure to use a dechlorinator or something to remove chloramines.
>
> I've been using the stuff the guy had been using. He had half a bottle of
> 'Tap Safe' left which he gave me. He said to use a capful per bucket.
> It says on the bottle that it's for goldfish, but the guy said it's ok to
> use with tropical fish because it hadn't harmed the betta. Would you say
> it would be better to buy a tropical (assuming there is one) 'tap safe'
> product rather than keep using the goldfish one?

They're pretty much all the same - they deactivate the chlorine and some
will do the chloramines as well. That's all that matters.

> To be fair, I've had the tank nearly 3 months and all the fish seem
> healthy. So far (touch wood) we've had no casualties...tho' how much that
> has to do with good luck i'm not sure. I'd rather it be down to doing the
> right thing than luck, tho'!!

I agree!
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria Groups.*
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[MangroveJack]

Altum wrote:
> MangroveJack wrote:
>
> > I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
> > that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
> > bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
> > in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
> > keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.
>
> How'd you do that? It must have been a spectacular tank with that many
> neons - I've always wanted a tank full of neons or cardinals. If you
> don't mind my asking, how long did you run that setup?

No, I don't mind at all. I used to run a small pet and aquarium
business which I built into a large aquarium and pet business, learning
everything the hard way, lol. Wish I knew about the internet back then.
A tank full of neons and especially cardinals is a sight to behold,
though to be fair having so many aquariums to look after and developing
an interest in the larger more colourful cichlids over time, I guess
the effect was kind of wasted on me.

Whenever neons or cardinals were on special, I'd make sure to stock
right up. The tanks they went into only held 55 litres (not sure what
that is in US gallons, I'd usually estimate it by dividing by 4, which
is not accurate but pretty close). I'd keep it well planted and would
usually have to medicate more as a rule rather than an exception. Tetra
disease would usually be rife in such shipments, which usually took as
much as twelve hours to arrive from the time of packing at the
wholesalers.

I forget exactly which treatment I used to treat tetra disease but I
can recall it was a green powder I'd have to get specifically from the
vets. Treatment was also trial and error but out of a shipment of 300
fish, I thought it was a good result to lose no more than 10 to 20
within the first week, by which time they had settled in and I felt
comfortable selling them again. With a huge Java Fern dominating the
tank, and a bright blue background, it looked spectacular.

So although I did run these setups (usually maximum 150 cardinals due
to cost) for several years, the numbers were admittedly constantly
being reduced by sales. I would say a three-foot (100 litre) aquarium
would be more suitable for a school of 300 tetras on a permanent basis,
with lots and lots of live plants, corydora catfish bobbing around on
the bottom, a pair of bristlenose in the driftwood features, and a
25-30% water change every week.

And for Jay, who asked, NEVER remove the fish from the aquarium unless
you have to steralise it for some strange reason. Make sure to keep the
heater below the water level at all times, and SMALL regular water
changes are far more beneficial than large, irregular water changes.
Unless all your fish are dropping off in front of your eyes, consider
30% to be a maximum amount at any time. I've never had a problem adding
the water directly from the tap, adding dechlorinator to the tank, and
a small amount of salt for ALL fish at every water change (more for
goldys and live-bearers), but admittedly, the climate I live in is very
mild and never gets that cold. I would use a large storage tank to heat
and treat the water first if I was in a colder environment.
>
> I wouldn't have though to try more than 50 or so neons in a 20 gallon
> tank, although I think I had about 40 guppies in my planted 10 gallon
> for a while. I was changing 50% of the water twice a week to keep them
> healthy and growing.

One thing I failed to mention is that I'd usually get small neons at
first, so that by the time they had reached full size (about an inch)
their number would be less than 100. Since they are such a small fish,
use next to no oxygen, and hardly pollute the water at all (number ONE
rule, NEVER OVERFEED your fish, healthy fish SHOULD always look
hungry), I would think that with adequate filtration, something that
neutralizes ammonia, 100 to 150 would not be too many in a tank that
size, and would look spectacular.

I tended not to do too dramatic a water change with my guppies as our
water supply was very alkaline but very soft, and guppies would always
suffer from too rapid a change in water hardness. They would always get
extra salt plus live-bearer salt which I found was very hard to
overdose them on, if not impossible. I'm currently breeding lots of
platies and they seem to be fine with just a handful of swimming pool
salt every water-change (and most of their ponds are outdoors, and
heavily neglected, yet they thrive).

>
> BTW, I didn't realize you were posting from Google. To quote someone's
> post and reply, click on the "show options" link at the top of the post.
> Then click the new "Reply" link that appears at the top of the post.
> The quoted content is there, prefaced with ">".

Thanks heaps for the tip. I'm quite new to google groups still. Always
learning as they say... he not busy being born, is busy dying. lol.

>
> --
> Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
> Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Koi-Lo]

"MangroveJack" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Thanks heaps for the tip. I'm quite new to google groups still. Always
> learning as they say... he not busy being born, is busy dying. lol.
====================
There are free newsservers you can use which are 100% better than posting
through Google. There are a few you don't even need to sigh up for - just
add them to OE and off you go! :-)
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Aquarium FAQ are at: http://faq.thekrib.com/
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jay Kaner]

"Nikki" > wrote

> Its a nice hobby to have.....relaxing when things are going well,
> stressful other times, but always enjoyable

Yeah, I'm enjoying it immensely. It was a bit of an impulse buy. I've
always enjoyed looking at tropical fish in other peoples tanks...then a
fella i work with's neighbour was selling his because he was moving into a
retirement home. It was a really good set up for the price, so I thought
why not!!!

> And dont feel bad about it, at least you took the time to find out what
> was best for them, and are going to invest in a better tank, more then
> what a lot of people do....so its all good

Yeah, well, I got a bit carried away with the fish at first. It was great
fun going around the pet shops with my daughter, letting her choose the fish
for the tank. But now I know it's going to be a perminent addition to our
lives I thought I'd better start looking at how to care for them properly.
I would with any pet. And NG's like this are the perfect place to learn and
get advice from, so here I am.

> I am in complete understading about kids & goldfish, i started my son a
> goldfish tank with moors, fantail, redcaps, telescope eyes, and he enjoys
> them so much, now he has me talked into having a pond in the summer for
> them.

Heh!!! It's great. My little one loves it. She'll love it even more
when I get the bigger tank. That one will be mine and i'll 'give' her this
one with the cold water fish to look after...because she's a 'big girl'
now!! lol.
She likes those fish more anyway, because of the way they 'interact' more
with the nibbling and the taking food from her fingertips.

> Watch the betta while in the tank with the goldfish......sometimes they
> get picky

Right. Will do. Tho' I have to say out of all the fish in the tank, the
betta is *the* most chilled out of fish. I've never seen it swim anything
faster than a graceful stroll around the tank!! Even at feeding time, all
the other fish seem to get all excited but the betta just ambles on up
seemingly without a care in the world. He seems more Jamaican than
Japanese....

[Jay Kaner]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> One other question I meant to ask in that last post. When doing the
>>>> water changes and gravel cleaning is it best to remove the fish?
>>>> That's what I've been doing so far, but could this be done with the
>>>> fish still in the tank?
>>> =====================
>>> NO!
>>
>> Do you mean "no" to doing this with the fish still in the tank? Or to
>> removing the fish beforehand? I'm not sure which you mean.
>
> NO NOT remove the fish while doing it.

Righty-oh. That's great. Like i said in another post, that makes life a
bit easier!!

Cheers!!

[Thoeny]

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in
:

>
>> Thanks heaps for the tip. I'm quite new to google groups still.
>> Always learning as they say... he not busy being born, is busy dying.
>> lol.
> ====================
> There are free newsservers you can use which are 100% better than
> posting through Google. There are a few you don't even need to sigh
> up for - just add them to OE and off you go! :-)
>

I use Xnews it is free and works great. Personally just never could stand
OE.

That is if you IP offers newsgroups.

[Altum]

MangroveJack wrote:

<snip>
> I forget exactly which treatment I used to treat tetra disease but I
> can recall it was a green powder I'd have to get specifically from the
> vets. Treatment was also trial and error but out of a shipment of 300
> fish, I thought it was a good result to lose no more than 10 to 20
> within the first week, by which time they had settled in and I felt
> comfortable selling them again. With a huge Java Fern dominating the
> tank, and a bright blue background, it looked spectacular.

This sounds like NetMax's stories of store tanks full of neons and
cardinals. I love how they shoal in stores.

> So although I did run these setups (usually maximum 150 cardinals due
> to cost) for several years, the numbers were admittedly constantly
> being reduced by sales. I would say a three-foot (100 litre) aquarium
> would be more suitable for a school of 300 tetras on a permanent basis,
> with lots and lots of live plants, corydora catfish bobbing around on
> the bottom, a pair of bristlenose in the driftwood features, and a
> 25-30% water change every week.

Wow. One of these years I'm going to set up a cardinal tank. People
overlook them because they're so common, but all of my community tanks
have had a shoal of cardinals or neons. Maybe I'll start replacing my
short-lived fish with cardinals as they die.

<snip>

> I tended not to do too dramatic a water change with my guppies as our
> water supply was very alkaline but very soft, and guppies would always
> suffer from too rapid a change in water hardness. They would always get
> extra salt plus live-bearer salt which I found was very hard to
> overdose them on, if not impossible. I'm currently breeding lots of
> platies and they seem to be fine with just a handful of swimming pool
> salt every water-change (and most of their ponds are outdoors, and
> heavily neglected, yet they thrive).

My water is hard, so I don't even have to salt livebearers. It's very
convenient. These were show guppies so I was feeding pretty heavily. I
had tons of watersprite and baby's tears in the tank soaking up nitrate too.

> Thanks heaps for the tip. I'm quite new to google groups still. Always
> learning as they say... he not busy being born, is busy dying. lol.

You're welcome. Your ISP may provide a usenet server. If they do, you
might enjoy using a newsreader like Thunderbird, Free Agent, or Outlook
Express. They give you filtering capabilities and organize the threads
much better.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Koi-Lo]

"Thoeny" <none> wrote in message
...
> I use Xnews it is free and works great. Personally just never could stand
> OE.
>
> That is if you IP offers newsgroups.
===============
I love OE6. It's so easy to use. I tried a few others and couldn't figure
out how they work, probably because I couldn't understand the helpfiles.
None of them were intuitive. I wish I was more of a computer nerd.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Aquarium FAQ are at: http://faq.thekrib.com/
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Mister Gardener]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:53:15 -0000, Thoeny <none> wrote:

>"Koi-Lo" > wrote in
:
>
>>
>>> Thanks heaps for the tip. I'm quite new to google groups still.
>>> Always learning as they say... he not busy being born, is busy dying.
>>> lol.
>> ====================
>> There are free newsservers you can use which are 100% better than
>> posting through Google. There are a few you don't even need to sigh
>> up for - just add them to OE and off you go! :-)
>>
>
>I use Xnews it is free and works great. Personally just never could stand
>OE.
>
>That is if you IP offers newsgroups.

Good newsreader, and still free. Quite similar to Agent in its layout,
if I recall. I love Agent, but I loved it more back when it was free.

-- Mister Gardener

For Killfile FAQs visit
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/killfilefaq.htm

[Mister Gardener]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:45:39 GMT, Altum >
wrote:

>MangroveJack wrote:
>
><snip>
>> I forget exactly which treatment I used to treat tetra disease but I
>> can recall it was a green powder I'd have to get specifically from the
>> vets. Treatment was also trial and error but out of a shipment of 300
>> fish, I thought it was a good result to lose no more than 10 to 20
>> within the first week, by which time they had settled in and I felt
>> comfortable selling them again. With a huge Java Fern dominating the
>> tank, and a bright blue background, it looked spectacular.
>
>This sounds like NetMax's stories of store tanks full of neons and
>cardinals. I love how they shoal in stores.
>
>> So although I did run these setups (usually maximum 150 cardinals due
>> to cost) for several years, the numbers were admittedly constantly
>> being reduced by sales. I would say a three-foot (100 litre) aquarium
>> would be more suitable for a school of 300 tetras on a permanent basis,
>> with lots and lots of live plants, corydora catfish bobbing around on
>> the bottom, a pair of bristlenose in the driftwood features, and a
>> 25-30% water change every week.
>
>Wow. One of these years I'm going to set up a cardinal tank. People
>overlook them because they're so common, but all of my community tanks
>have had a shoal of cardinals or neons. Maybe I'll start replacing my
>short-lived fish with cardinals as they die.

One of my little gray cells just went Ding - something about neons
preferring their water a little cooler, in the low seventies, than we
often keep our tropical tanks. Cardinals do better in the more common
tropical tank temperatures of 77 give or take a couple. I've been
lucky with my neons this time around - out of 15, I think I lost 3 in
the first week, and that was back in January. The dozen is not a
hundred, but it is enough to provide a handsome, graceful schoal.

-- Mister Gardener

Everything Aquaria & Tropical Fish at The Krib:
http://www.thekrib.com/
For Killfile FAQs visit
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/killfilefaq.htm

[Mister Gardener]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:46:50 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>I love OE6. It's so easy to use. I tried a few others and couldn't figure
>out how they work, probably because I couldn't understand the helpfiles.
>None of them were intuitive. I wish I was more of a computer nerd.

I think the nerd factor is routinely appearing in the genetic code of
newborn babies these days.

-- Mister Gardener

[Mister Gardener]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:10:18 -0400, Mister Gardener
> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:53:15 -0000, Thoeny <none> wrote:
>
>>"Koi-Lo" > wrote in
:
>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks heaps for the tip. I'm quite new to google groups still.
>>>> Always learning as they say... he not busy being born, is busy dying.
>>>> lol.
>>> ====================
>>> There are free newsservers you can use which are 100% better than
>>> posting through Google. There are a few you don't even need to sigh
>>> up for - just add them to OE and off you go! :-)
>>>
>>
>>I use Xnews it is free and works great. Personally just never could stand
>>OE.
>>
>>That is if you IP offers newsgroups.
>
>Good newsreader, and still free. Quite similar to Agent in its layout,
>if I recall. I love Agent, but I loved it more back when it was free.

Talking to myself - the killfile feature in Agent is no longer
available in the Free Agent version. Which is why I used Xnews for a
while until I coughed up the $29 bucks to make Free Agent full Agent.

-- Mister Gardener

Everything Aquaria & Tropical Fish at The Krib:
http://www.thekrib.com/
For Killfile FAQs visit
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/killfilefaq.htm

[Rick]

"Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nikki" > wrote
>
>> Its a nice hobby to have.....relaxing when things are going well,
>> stressful other times, but always enjoyable
>
> Yeah, I'm enjoying it immensely. It was a bit of an impulse buy. I've
> always enjoyed looking at tropical fish in other peoples tanks...then a
> fella i work with's neighbour was selling his because he was moving into a
> retirement home. It was a really good set up for the price, so I thought
> why not!!!
>
>> And dont feel bad about it, at least you took the time to find out what
>> was best for them, and are going to invest in a better tank, more then
>> what a lot of people do....so its all good
>
> Yeah, well, I got a bit carried away with the fish at first. It was great
> fun going around the pet shops with my daughter, letting her choose the
> fish for the tank. But now I know it's going to be a perminent addition
> to our lives I thought I'd better start looking at how to care for them
> properly. I would with any pet. And NG's like this are the perfect place
> to learn and get advice from, so here I am.
>
>> I am in complete understading about kids & goldfish, i started my son a
>> goldfish tank with moors, fantail, redcaps, telescope eyes, and he enjoys
>> them so much, now he has me talked into having a pond in the summer for
>> them.
>
> Heh!!! It's great. My little one loves it. She'll love it even more
> when I get the bigger tank. That one will be mine and i'll 'give' her
> this one with the cold water fish to look after...because she's a 'big
> girl' now!! lol.

Be careful, a friend of mine had his "big girl" dump a whole can of flakes
in "her' tank one time and a bottle of perfume another time. Needless to
say, the take was moved.


> She likes those fish more anyway, because of the way they 'interact' more
> with the nibbling and the taking food from her fingertips.
>
>> Watch the betta while in the tank with the goldfish......sometimes they
>> get picky
>
> Right. Will do. Tho' I have to say out of all the fish in the tank, the
> betta is *the* most chilled out of fish. I've never seen it swim
> anything faster than a graceful stroll around the tank!! Even at feeding
> time, all the other fish seem to get all excited but the betta just ambles
> on up seemingly without a care in the world. He seems more Jamaican than
> Japanese....
>

[Koi-Lo]

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:46:50 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>
>>I love OE6. It's so easy to use. I tried a few others and couldn't
>>figure
>>out how they work, probably because I couldn't understand the helpfiles.
>>None of them were intuitive. I wish I was more of a computer nerd.
>
> I think the nerd factor is routinely appearing in the genetic code of
> newborn babies these days.
>
> -- Mister Gardener
========================
GOOD! :-))) That means bigger and better computer programmers and
designers tomorrow.......
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Mister Gardener]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:56:33 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:46:50 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I love OE6. It's so easy to use. I tried a few others and couldn't
>>>figure
>>>out how they work, probably because I couldn't understand the helpfiles.
>>>None of them were intuitive. I wish I was more of a computer nerd.
>>
>> I think the nerd factor is routinely appearing in the genetic code of
>> newborn babies these days.
>>
>> -- Mister Gardener
>========================
>GOOD! :-))) That means bigger and better computer programmers and
>designers tomorrow.......

Yeah, well, that means first we have to potty train them, then get
them to stop drooling all down their chins. Or do we?

-- Mister Gardener

[Jay Kaner]

"MangroveJack" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
> of fish you want.

Well... i will from now on... ;-)

While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
> another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
> optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
> conditions.

I did get a bit carried away at first. The newness. The choosing of fish
with the kid. The advice off the guy i bought the set up from...
Y'know...


> It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
> soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
> hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.

A little too late now... But that will be remedied somewhat when i get the
bigger tank.

The guy said it would be ok to buy tropical fish because he'd put the heater
in for the betta. And that's what we did. Obviously now, it's becoming
apparent there's more to it than just buying the prettiest fish and, like i
said, i'll bear that in mind in the future. The main reason for this post
is I don't understand what you mean with the water.

"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely it's
the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
the same tap?

> More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
> doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
> with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
> water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
> filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.

That's not a problem. And now i know it's ok to leave the fish in while i
do this, it makes it even easier!!

> You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
> keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
> alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
> add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
> goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
> water, who are more prone to disease.
>
>
> At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
> matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
> have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
> most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
> time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
> better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
> would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
> fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
> over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
> regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
> neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
> your hard-alkaline dominant situation).

How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to find
out?

> I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
> that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
> bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
> in with them, though.

Like i said, the black moors, goldfish, black widow and betta were already
in the tank together when i bought it

> Get another aquarium if you are serious about
> keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.

Yep, that's what i'm going to do as soon as funds permit. Obviously I've a
family to feed, mortgage to pay and bills all fighting for me money.
There's a large record collection somewhere in there too.
And an unwillingness to work overtime unless i really, really, *really* have
to, doesn't help matters...but I will get another tank asap.

When you say "warm water soft-acidic type fish" do you mean, in general, the
'tropical' fish?

Once again, thanks for the advice. It is appreciated.

[netDenizen]

Jay Kaner wrote:
The main reason for this post
> is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>
> "Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely it's
> the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
> the same tap?
>

Pure water such as distilled water is the same everywhere, but in nature
there is always some dissolved material in the water. Commonly there is
dissolved limestone from the soil and rocks water travels over, and this
produces dissolved carbonates or "carbonate hardness". Other dissolved
rocks/minerals such as sulphates (gypsum, anhydrite...) give the water
"general hardness". Then there are dissolved organics, especially in
somewhat swampy environments, that give the water a light brownish tinge
and add acidity.

Tap water varies according to the geology of your area. Currently I'm in
an area of granitic rocks and the tap water is soft. Previously I had a
well that drew water from a limestone aquifer, and that water was very hard.

pH is hydrogen ion concentration (acidity, alkalinity) with pH 7.0 being
"neutral". Soft waters tend to become acidic (pH < 7) due to fish
wastes. "Hard" waters tend to have lots of dissolved carbonate and tend
to be alkaline, pH > 7. For most fresh water aquarium fish a pH of 6.5
to 8 should be ok, and carbonate hardness should be > 50 parts per
million calcium carbonate. There are test kits for all these things; I
use an old Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc tap water test kit.

Different fish come from different natural environments so may do better
in specific water chemistry - check fish books such as Baensch's atlas.
Because many fish now come from breeders, they may not have grown up in
water like they'd have in nature, though.

I guess the biggest thing about water chemistry, as for temperature, is
to avoid sudden changes. In addition to the water chemistry I mentioned,
there's dissolved salt, nitrate etc. These things should be at low
levels in tap water but may accumulate in the aquarium, for example by
addition of salt to treat fish illness. Regular partial water changes
should keep your aquarium water similar to your tap water - a good thing.

[Mister Gardener]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:22:31 GMT, "Jay Kaner" > wrote:

>
>"MangroveJack" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
>> of fish you want.
>
>Well... i will from now on... ;-)
>
>While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
>> another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
>> optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
>> conditions.
>
>I did get a bit carried away at first. The newness. The choosing of fish
>with the kid. The advice off the guy i bought the set up from...
>Y'know...
>
>
>> It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
>> soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
>> hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.
>
>A little too late now... But that will be remedied somewhat when i get the
>bigger tank.
>
>The guy said it would be ok to buy tropical fish because he'd put the heater
>in for the betta. And that's what we did. Obviously now, it's becoming
>apparent there's more to it than just buying the prettiest fish and, like i
>said, i'll bear that in mind in the future. The main reason for this post
>is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>
>"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely it's
>the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
>the same tap?
>
>> More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
>> doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
>> with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
>> water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
>> filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.
>
>That's not a problem. And now i know it's ok to leave the fish in while i
>do this, it makes it even easier!!
>
>> You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
>> keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
>> alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
>> add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
>> goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
>> water, who are more prone to disease.
>>
>>
>> At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
>> matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
>> have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
>> most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
>> time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
>> better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
>> would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
>> fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
>> over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
>> regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
>> neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
>> your hard-alkaline dominant situation).
>
>How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
>honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to find
>out?
>
>> I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
>> that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
>> bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
>> in with them, though.
>
>Like i said, the black moors, goldfish, black widow and betta were already
>in the tank together when i bought it
>
>> Get another aquarium if you are serious about
>> keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.
>
>Yep, that's what i'm going to do as soon as funds permit. Obviously I've a
>family to feed, mortgage to pay and bills all fighting for me money.
>There's a large record collection somewhere in there too.
>And an unwillingness to work overtime unless i really, really, *really* have
>to, doesn't help matters...but I will get another tank asap.
>
>When you say "warm water soft-acidic type fish" do you mean, in general, the
>'tropical' fish?
>
>Once again, thanks for the advice. It is appreciated.
>
>
Yes, you need to buy a water testing kit. A kit that measures pH,
Ammonia, Nitrites, Hardness. You can probably get your local pet
retailer to test your water for you - it's good to get a baseline test
on your water pH an Hardness coming out of the tap, as well as
measuring the above in your tanks on a regular basis. A basic test kit
will run you about 20 bucks. And don't accept the pet store's reading
as "your water's fine", but ask him to write down the results of each
test.

Meanwhile, you can find lots to read at The Krib.

-- Mister Gardener

Everything Aquaria & Tropical Fish at The Krib:
http://www.thekrib.com/

[Mister Gardener]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:33:48 -0400, Mister Gardener
> wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:22:31 GMT, "Jay Kaner" > wrote:

>>How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
>>honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to find
>>out?
>>
You can also get some information from your water company, if your
water is supplied by a company rather than a well. They make printed
reports available quite regularly, you can get these reports either
from their website or by calling and asking for one. My own company
gets the info for me when I call - the last time I called I talked
with a very nice young woman who after my first question asked, "you
have aquariums, right?" She was my kind of helper. When I mentioned
the test kit in a previous post, I left out Hardness - this is not
included in the most common kits, like the API Freshwater Test Kit,
and your water company can tell you your hardness. If the hardness is
satisfactory to you, then you can count on it remaining stable from
your faucet and you won't need to test for it too often. Often, simply
knowing whether your water is soft, medium, or hard is enough to get
your started. I've never purchased a hardness kit - I always take a
sample of my tap water to my pet shop guy about twice a year and he
tests it for me. The last time I did this, he said, "you're the only
customer who cares about hardness, here, take the kit." So now I have
a freebie hardness kit. You probably won't be so lucky. But you can
save a few bucks by not buying the hardness kit right away. The other
stuff is more important. For now.

-- Mister Gardener

[Gill Passman]

Mister Gardener wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:33:48 -0400, Mister Gardener
> > wrote:
>
>
>>On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:22:31 GMT, "Jay Kaner" > wrote:
>
>
>>>How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
>>>honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to find
>>>out?
>>>
>
> You can also get some information from your water company, if your
> water is supplied by a company rather than a well. They make printed
> reports available quite regularly, you can get these reports either
> from their website or by calling and asking for one. My own company
> gets the info for me when I call - the last time I called I talked
> with a very nice young woman who after my first question asked, "you
> have aquariums, right?" She was my kind of helper. When I mentioned
> the test kit in a previous post, I left out Hardness - this is not
> included in the most common kits, like the API Freshwater Test Kit,
> and your water company can tell you your hardness. If the hardness is
> satisfactory to you, then you can count on it remaining stable from
> your faucet and you won't need to test for it too often. Often, simply
> knowing whether your water is soft, medium, or hard is enough to get
> your started. I've never purchased a hardness kit - I always take a
> sample of my tap water to my pet shop guy about twice a year and he
> tests it for me. The last time I did this, he said, "you're the only
> customer who cares about hardness, here, take the kit." So now I have
> a freebie hardness kit. You probably won't be so lucky. But you can
> save a few bucks by not buying the hardness kit right away. The other
> stuff is more important. For now.
>
> -- Mister Gardener

A quick, but not very scientific way to discover if your water is hard
or soft is to look at the inside of your kettle (that is if you don't
condition your drinking water) - if it furs up your water is hard. Or
you could try leaving some untreated water in a glass for a few days and
see if you get a limescale deposit. Another option is how much
soap/shampoo you need to get a decent sud - you need a lot more with
hard water....I've never had to buy a hardness test kit (in fact I
struggle to find them on the shelves) - our water is hard here (liquid
rock) end of story...

Gill

[Jay Kaner]

"netDenizen" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Kaner wrote:
> The main reason for this post
>> is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>>
>> "Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely
>> it's the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes
>> from the same tap?
>>
>
> Pure water such as distilled water is the same everywhere, but in nature
> there is always some dissolved material in the water. Commonly there is
> dissolved limestone from the soil and rocks water travels over, and this
> produces dissolved carbonates or "carbonate hardness". Other dissolved
> rocks/minerals such as sulphates (gypsum, anhydrite...) give the water
> "general hardness". Then there are dissolved organics, especially in
> somewhat swampy environments, that give the water a light brownish tinge
> and add acidity.
>
> Tap water varies according to the geology of your area. Currently I'm in
> an area of granitic rocks and the tap water is soft. Previously I had a
> well that drew water from a limestone aquifer, and that water was very
> hard.
>
> pH is hydrogen ion concentration (acidity, alkalinity) with pH 7.0 being
> "neutral". Soft waters tend to become acidic (pH < 7) due to fish wastes.
> "Hard" waters tend to have lots of dissolved carbonate and tend to be
> alkaline, pH > 7. For most fresh water aquarium fish a pH of 6.5 to 8
> should be ok, and carbonate hardness should be > 50 parts per million
> calcium carbonate. There are test kits for all these things; I use an old
> Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc tap water test kit.
>
> Different fish come from different natural environments so may do better
> in specific water chemistry - check fish books such as Baensch's atlas.
> Because many fish now come from breeders, they may not have grown up in
> water like they'd have in nature, though.
>
> I guess the biggest thing about water chemistry, as for temperature, is to
> avoid sudden changes. In addition to the water chemistry I mentioned,
> there's dissolved salt, nitrate etc. These things should be at low levels
> in tap water but may accumulate in the aquarium, for example by addition
> of salt to treat fish illness. Regular partial water changes should keep
> your aquarium water similar to your tap water - a good thing.

I can get the testing kits ...and i think i'll get some of the other
testing kits mentioned around and about in some of the other posts in here,
too. That way i'll know what state my water's in.

But what i can't get my head round is this... (I'll cut and paste a couple
of MangroveJacks comments to explain what i mean)

> "It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
> soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
> hard-alkaline" fish (goldfish, live-bearers etc)environments"

> "Get another aquarium if you are serious about
> keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish"

Now, at the moment my tank has a mix of "warm-water,
soft-acidic" type fish (which i'm assuming to mean my 'tropical' fish in
general) and "cold-water, hard-alkaline" type fish. i.e the goldfish, the
orfe and the black moors.

MangorveJack's (and others) advice is to have separate tanks for the two
types of fish, which I am going to do. I am on the lookout for a 4' tank
for the tropical fish, and to keep my 2' tank (minus the heater) for the
goldfish, the orfe and the black moors.

Here's the bit i'm struggling with...

I will have two tanks. And i have two types of fish. A tank for each type
of fish.

But i only have one type of water, the one (whatever type it is?) that comes
out of my tap.

That same tap water will go in both tanks, yet each tank needs different
water for the different types of fish...one soft-acidic and the other one
hard-alkaline. How can that be done when i only have the 'one' type of
water that comes out of my tap??

Do you see what i mean?

[Jay Kaner]

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:22:31 GMT, "Jay Kaner" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"MangroveJack" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>> Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
>>> of fish you want.
>>
>>Well... i will from now on... ;-)
>>
>>While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
>>> another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
>>> optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
>>> conditions.
>>
>>I did get a bit carried away at first. The newness. The choosing of fish
>>with the kid. The advice off the guy i bought the set up from...
>>Y'know...
>>
>>
>>> It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
>>> soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
>>> hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.
>>
>>A little too late now... But that will be remedied somewhat when i get
>>the
>>bigger tank.
>>
>>The guy said it would be ok to buy tropical fish because he'd put the
>>heater
>>in for the betta. And that's what we did. Obviously now, it's becoming
>>apparent there's more to it than just buying the prettiest fish and, like
>>i
>>said, i'll bear that in mind in the future. The main reason for this post
>>is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>>
>>"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely
>>it's
>>the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
>>the same tap?
>>
>>> More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
>>> doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
>>> with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
>>> water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
>>> filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.
>>
>>That's not a problem. And now i know it's ok to leave the fish in while i
>>do this, it makes it even easier!!
>>
>>> You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
>>> keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
>>> alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
>>> add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
>>> goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
>>> water, who are more prone to disease.
>>>
>>>
>>> At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
>>> matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
>>> have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
>>> most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
>>> time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
>>> better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
>>> would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
>>> fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
>>> over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
>>> regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
>>> neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
>>> your hard-alkaline dominant situation).
>>
>>How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
>>honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to
>>find
>>out?
>>
>>> I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
>>> that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
>>> bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
>>> in with them, though.
>>
>>Like i said, the black moors, goldfish, black widow and betta were already
>>in the tank together when i bought it
>>
>>> Get another aquarium if you are serious about
>>> keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.
>>
>>Yep, that's what i'm going to do as soon as funds permit. Obviously I've
>>a
>>family to feed, mortgage to pay and bills all fighting for me money.
>>There's a large record collection somewhere in there too.
>>And an unwillingness to work overtime unless i really, really, *really*
>>have
>>to, doesn't help matters...but I will get another tank asap.
>>
>>When you say "warm water soft-acidic type fish" do you mean, in general,
>>the
>>'tropical' fish?
>>
>>Once again, thanks for the advice. It is appreciated.
>>
>>
> Yes, you need to buy a water testing kit. A kit that measures pH,
> Ammonia, Nitrites, Hardness. You can probably get your local pet
> retailer to test your water for you - it's good to get a baseline test
> on your water pH an Hardness coming out of the tap, as well as
> measuring the above in your tanks on a regular basis. A basic test kit
> will run you about 20 bucks. And don't accept the pet store's reading
> as "your water's fine", but ask him to write down the results of each
> test.
>
> Meanwhile, you can find lots to read at The Krib.

Thanks, i'll go have a look right now.

Regarding the water. If there are problems, are there ways to go about
altering the water you have to make it meet your needs?

[Gill Passman]

Jay Kaner wrote:
> "netDenizen" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Jay Kaner wrote:
>> The main reason for this post
>>
>>>is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>>>
>>>"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely
>>>it's the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes
>>>from the same tap?
>>>
>>
>>Pure water such as distilled water is the same everywhere, but in nature
>>there is always some dissolved material in the water. Commonly there is
>>dissolved limestone from the soil and rocks water travels over, and this
>>produces dissolved carbonates or "carbonate hardness". Other dissolved
>>rocks/minerals such as sulphates (gypsum, anhydrite...) give the water
>>"general hardness". Then there are dissolved organics, especially in
>>somewhat swampy environments, that give the water a light brownish tinge
>>and add acidity.
>>
>>Tap water varies according to the geology of your area. Currently I'm in
>>an area of granitic rocks and the tap water is soft. Previously I had a
>>well that drew water from a limestone aquifer, and that water was very
>>hard.
>>
>>pH is hydrogen ion concentration (acidity, alkalinity) with pH 7.0 being
>>"neutral". Soft waters tend to become acidic (pH < 7) due to fish wastes.
>>"Hard" waters tend to have lots of dissolved carbonate and tend to be
>>alkaline, pH > 7. For most fresh water aquarium fish a pH of 6.5 to 8
>>should be ok, and carbonate hardness should be > 50 parts per million
>>calcium carbonate. There are test kits for all these things; I use an old
>>Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc tap water test kit.
>>
>>Different fish come from different natural environments so may do better
>>in specific water chemistry - check fish books such as Baensch's atlas.
>>Because many fish now come from breeders, they may not have grown up in
>>water like they'd have in nature, though.
>>
>>I guess the biggest thing about water chemistry, as for temperature, is to
>>avoid sudden changes. In addition to the water chemistry I mentioned,
>>there's dissolved salt, nitrate etc. These things should be at low levels
>>in tap water but may accumulate in the aquarium, for example by addition
>>of salt to treat fish illness. Regular partial water changes should keep
>>your aquarium water similar to your tap water - a good thing.
>
>
> I can get the testing kits ...and i think i'll get some of the other
> testing kits mentioned around and about in some of the other posts in here,
> too. That way i'll know what state my water's in.
>
> But what i can't get my head round is this... (I'll cut and paste a couple
> of MangroveJacks comments to explain what i mean)
>
>
>>"It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
>>soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
>>hard-alkaline" fish (goldfish, live-bearers etc)environments"
>
>
>>"Get another aquarium if you are serious about
>>keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish"
>
>
> Now, at the moment my tank has a mix of "warm-water,
> soft-acidic" type fish (which i'm assuming to mean my 'tropical' fish in
> general) and "cold-water, hard-alkaline" type fish. i.e the goldfish, the
> orfe and the black moors.
>
> MangorveJack's (and others) advice is to have separate tanks for the two
> types of fish, which I am going to do. I am on the lookout for a 4' tank
> for the tropical fish, and to keep my 2' tank (minus the heater) for the
> goldfish, the orfe and the black moors.
>
> Here's the bit i'm struggling with...
>
> I will have two tanks. And i have two types of fish. A tank for each type
> of fish.
>
> But i only have one type of water, the one (whatever type it is?) that comes
> out of my tap.
>
> That same tap water will go in both tanks, yet each tank needs different
> water for the different types of fish...one soft-acidic and the other one
> hard-alkaline. How can that be done when i only have the 'one' type of
> water that comes out of my tap??
>
> Do you see what i mean?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
You only have one type of water from your tap - very true...there are
ways and means of changing hardness/softness but right now I would not
suggest you dabble with it...

Yes...same water - different temperature - warm for the tropicals/cold
for the goldfish....

When it comes to chosing the fish (tropicals) you will need to consider
whether your water is hard or soft...and buy the fish best suited to
your conditions that come out of your tap...

Gill

[Jay Kaner]

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:33:48 -0400, Mister Gardener
> > wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:22:31 GMT, "Jay Kaner" > wrote:
>
>>>How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in
>>>all
>>>honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to
>>>find
>>>out?
>>>
> You can also get some information from your water company, if your
> water is supplied by a company rather than a well. They make printed
> reports available quite regularly, you can get these reports either
> from their website or by calling and asking for one. My own company
> gets the info for me when I call - the last time I called I talked
> with a very nice young woman who after my first question asked, "you
> have aquariums, right?" She was my kind of helper. When I mentioned
> the test kit in a previous post, I left out Hardness - this is not
> included in the most common kits, like the API Freshwater Test Kit,
> and your water company can tell you your hardness. If the hardness is
> satisfactory to you, then you can count on it remaining stable from
> your faucet and you won't need to test for it too often. Often, simply
> knowing whether your water is soft, medium, or hard is enough to get
> your started. I've never purchased a hardness kit - I always take a
> sample of my tap water to my pet shop guy about twice a year and he
> tests it for me. The last time I did this, he said, "you're the only
> customer who cares about hardness, here, take the kit." So now I have
> a freebie hardness kit. You probably won't be so lucky. But you can
> save a few bucks by not buying the hardness kit right away. The other
> stuff is more important. For now.

I'll have a look. I'm sure my water company has a website. I'll see what
i can glean from that.

Cheers again!!

[Gill Passman]

Jay Kaner wrote:
> "Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:22:31 GMT, "Jay Kaner" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"MangroveJack" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>>
>>>>Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
>>>>of fish you want.
>>>
>>>Well... i will from now on... ;-)
>>>
>>>While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
>>>
>>>>another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
>>>>optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
>>>>conditions.
>>>
>>>I did get a bit carried away at first. The newness. The choosing of fish
>>>with the kid. The advice off the guy i bought the set up from...
>>>Y'know...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
>>>>soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
>>>>hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.
>>>
>>>A little too late now... But that will be remedied somewhat when i get
>>>the
>>>bigger tank.
>>>
>>>The guy said it would be ok to buy tropical fish because he'd put the
>>>heater
>>>in for the betta. And that's what we did. Obviously now, it's becoming
>>>apparent there's more to it than just buying the prettiest fish and, like
>>>i
>>>said, i'll bear that in mind in the future. The main reason for this post
>>>is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>>>
>>>"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely
>>>it's
>>>the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
>>>the same tap?
>>>
>>>
>>>>More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
>>>>doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
>>>>with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
>>>>water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
>>>>filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.
>>>
>>>That's not a problem. And now i know it's ok to leave the fish in while i
>>>do this, it makes it even easier!!
>>>
>>>
>>>>You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
>>>>keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
>>>>alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
>>>>add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
>>>>goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
>>>>water, who are more prone to disease.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
>>>>matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
>>>>have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
>>>>most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
>>>>time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
>>>>better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
>>>>would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
>>>>fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
>>>>over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
>>>>regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
>>>>neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
>>>>your hard-alkaline dominant situation).
>>>
>>>How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
>>>honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to
>>>find
>>>out?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
>>>>that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
>>>>bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
>>>>in with them, though.
>>>
>>>Like i said, the black moors, goldfish, black widow and betta were already
>>>in the tank together when i bought it
>>>
>>>
>>>>Get another aquarium if you are serious about
>>>>keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.
>>>
>>>Yep, that's what i'm going to do as soon as funds permit. Obviously I've
>>>a
>>>family to feed, mortgage to pay and bills all fighting for me money.
>>>There's a large record collection somewhere in there too.
>>>And an unwillingness to work overtime unless i really, really, *really*
>>>have
>>>to, doesn't help matters...but I will get another tank asap.
>>>
>>>When you say "warm water soft-acidic type fish" do you mean, in general,
>>>the
>>>'tropical' fish?
>>>
>>>Once again, thanks for the advice. It is appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yes, you need to buy a water testing kit. A kit that measures pH,
>>Ammonia, Nitrites, Hardness. You can probably get your local pet
>>retailer to test your water for you - it's good to get a baseline test
>>on your water pH an Hardness coming out of the tap, as well as
>>measuring the above in your tanks on a regular basis. A basic test kit
>>will run you about 20 bucks. And don't accept the pet store's reading
>>as "your water's fine", but ask him to write down the results of each
>>test.
>>
>>Meanwhile, you can find lots to read at The Krib.
>
>
> Thanks, i'll go have a look right now.
>
> Regarding the water. If there are problems, are there ways to go about
> altering the water you have to make it meet your needs?
>
>
Yes...but don't....too many problems can arise if you get it wrong and
life becomes much more complicated...

You are far better off just getting fish that match your local
conditions....(or fish that have been bred in similar water or are very
well acclimatised)....that way you just need to add your tap water to
your tank instead of messing around with expensive chemicals to adjust
it....

[Jay Kaner]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message

> You only have one type of water from your tap - very true...there are ways
> and means of changing hardness/softness but right now I would not suggest
> you dabble with it...

No, lol... i'm not going to dabble with *anything* right now. I will,
however, try to find out the type of water i have asap.

It's just that, lets say for arguaments sake, my tap water is soft-acidic.
That will be fine for my tropical fish. Would i then have to alter the
water for my cold water fish?

I'm wondering...is there a 'middle' ground PH hard/soft that suits both
types of fish? Something that is more or less ok for both types, that if
i'm lucky my tap water type could fall into?

> Yes...same water - different temperature - warm for the tropicals/cold for
> the goldfish....

I understand the importance of cold/warm water. But the temp doesn't alter
the soft/hard, acidic/alkaline 'ness' of the water. (or does it?? i don't
know...but i wouldn't have thought it would)

Mind you, saying that, the mix of fish i do have all seem to be very
healthy. I've had the tank 3 months now and the guy i bought it off (local)
had it a year from new, so the water can't be 'too' bad for them.

> When it comes to chosing the fish (tropicals) you will need to consider
> whether your water is hard or soft...and buy the fish best suited to your
> conditions that come out of your tap...

Yeah, i will bear that in mind when choosing fish from now on. Then again,
would it be fair to say that fish sold locally would be ok to chose because
they're all more or less in the same water?

Thanks Gill.

[Jay Kaner]

"Gill Passman" > wrote

> Another option is how much soap/shampoo you need to get a decent sud - you
> need a lot more with hard water....

Ah, now then... We have friends that live in London, and the one thing
about their water that we noticed the first time we went to visit was how
soft it was when you had a bath. We put our usual amount of bubble-bath in
as we would here at home ...I've never seen so many bubbles!! they were
overflowing!!! Our friends said it was to do with the softness of their
water.

So, going by that, it would appear the water around here is on the 'hard'
side. How hard I don't know. Not the most scientific way of finding out,
granted, but a fair indicator...

[Gill Passman]

Jay Kaner wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>
>
>>You only have one type of water from your tap - very true...there are ways
>>and means of changing hardness/softness but right now I would not suggest
>>you dabble with it...
>
>
> No, lol... i'm not going to dabble with *anything* right now. I will,
> however, try to find out the type of water i have asap.
>
> It's just that, lets say for arguaments sake, my tap water is soft-acidic.
> That will be fine for my tropical fish. Would i then have to alter the
> water for my cold water fish?
>
> I'm wondering...is there a 'middle' ground PH hard/soft that suits both
> types of fish? Something that is more or less ok for both types, that if
> i'm lucky my tap water type could fall into?
>
>
>>Yes...same water - different temperature - warm for the tropicals/cold for
>>the goldfish....
>
>
> I understand the importance of cold/warm water. But the temp doesn't alter
> the soft/hard, acidic/alkaline 'ness' of the water. (or does it?? i don't
> know...but i wouldn't have thought it would)
>
> Mind you, saying that, the mix of fish i do have all seem to be very
> healthy. I've had the tank 3 months now and the guy i bought it off (local)
> had it a year from new, so the water can't be 'too' bad for them.
>
>
>>When it comes to chosing the fish (tropicals) you will need to consider
>>whether your water is hard or soft...and buy the fish best suited to your
>>conditions that come out of your tap...
>
>
> Yeah, i will bear that in mind when choosing fish from now on. Then again,
> would it be fair to say that fish sold locally would be ok to chose because
> they're all more or less in the same water?
>
> Thanks Gill.
>
>
The temperature does not alter the hardness/softness of the water but
what you put in the tank might do - by this I mean
ornaments/plants/rocks etc...along with the frequency and amount of
water that you change - I tend to do 20% weekly on larger tanks and more
on smaller tanks....

It is not necessarily true to say that fish sold locally will be
OK...but it is possible that some fish have been local bred or have
become acclimatised (got used to) local water conditions.

Your best bet is to find out what type of water you have...then go round
your local LFS and choose the fish that you like (but DON'T buy). Go
back home and do some googling or ask on this newsgroup if the fish that
you like are:-

1. Compatible with your local water conditions
2. Compatible with one another
3. Suited to the size of tank that you are offering them as a home
4. Are happy in the sort of environmental set up you have - for example
do they need lots of rocks and caves or do they like a planted tank....

Gill

[Jay Kaner]

"Gill Passman" > wrote
> Jay Kaner wrote:

>> Regarding the water. If there are problems, are there ways to go about
>> altering the water you have to make it meet your needs?
> Yes...but don't....too many problems can arise if you get it wrong and
> life becomes much more complicated...
>
> You are far better off just getting fish that match your local
> conditions....(or fish that have been bred in similar water or are very
> well acclimatised)....that way you just need to add your tap water to your
> tank instead of messing around with expensive chemicals to adjust it....

I was thinking more about the two types of fish i have in regards to that.
Though as you said, the temp is the more important thing to get right.

And seeing how healthy both types of fish are, i don't think i'll bother too
much about the hard/soft water thing if it could cause more problems than
what it's worth.

As soon as i know what the water type around here is i'll buy my fish to
suit that.

Thanks Gill.

[Gill Passman]

Jay Kaner wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote
>
>
>>Another option is how much soap/shampoo you need to get a decent sud - you
>>need a lot more with hard water....
>
>
> Ah, now then... We have friends that live in London, and the one thing
> about their water that we noticed the first time we went to visit was how
> soft it was when you had a bath. We put our usual amount of bubble-bath in
> as we would here at home ...I've never seen so many bubbles!! they were
> overflowing!!! Our friends said it was to do with the softness of their
> water.
>
> So, going by that, it would appear the water around here is on the 'hard'
> side. How hard I don't know. Not the most scientific way of finding out,
> granted, but a fair indicator...
>
>
So I take it from that that you are in the UK...now I would have thought
most of London has fairly hard water but East/North London/Essex is
definitely soft....Berkshire/Oxfordshire/Hampshire would be hard - West
Country is soft....depends on whether the rock is granite or
chalk/limestone...

If you don't condition your water before using it - what does the inside
of your kettle look like?

Gill

[Jay Kaner]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Kaner wrote:
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>>You only have one type of water from your tap - very true...there are
>>>ways and means of changing hardness/softness but right now I would not
>>>suggest you dabble with it...
>>
>>
>> No, lol... i'm not going to dabble with *anything* right now. I will,
>> however, try to find out the type of water i have asap.
>>
>> It's just that, lets say for arguaments sake, my tap water is
>> soft-acidic. That will be fine for my tropical fish. Would i then have
>> to alter the water for my cold water fish?
>>
>> I'm wondering...is there a 'middle' ground PH hard/soft that suits both
>> types of fish? Something that is more or less ok for both types, that if
>> i'm lucky my tap water type could fall into?
>>
>>
>>>Yes...same water - different temperature - warm for the tropicals/cold
>>>for the goldfish....
>>
>>
>> I understand the importance of cold/warm water. But the temp doesn't
>> alter the soft/hard, acidic/alkaline 'ness' of the water. (or does it??
>> i don't know...but i wouldn't have thought it would)
>>
>> Mind you, saying that, the mix of fish i do have all seem to be very
>> healthy. I've had the tank 3 months now and the guy i bought it off
>> (local) had it a year from new, so the water can't be 'too' bad for them.
>>
>>
>>>When it comes to chosing the fish (tropicals) you will need to consider
>>>whether your water is hard or soft...and buy the fish best suited to your
>>>conditions that come out of your tap...
>>
>>
>> Yeah, i will bear that in mind when choosing fish from now on. Then
>> again, would it be fair to say that fish sold locally would be ok to
>> chose because they're all more or less in the same water?
>>
>> Thanks Gill.
> The temperature does not alter the hardness/softness of the water but what
> you put in the tank might do - by this I mean ornaments/plants/rocks
> etc...along with the frequency and amount of water that you change - I
> tend to do 20% weekly on larger tanks and more on smaller tanks....
>
> It is not necessarily true to say that fish sold locally will be OK...but
> it is possible that some fish have been local bred or have become
> acclimatised (got used to) local water conditions.
>
> Your best bet is to find out what type of water you have...then go round
> your local LFS and choose the fish that you like (but DON'T buy). Go back
> home and do some googling or ask on this newsgroup if the fish that you
> like are:-
>
> 1. Compatible with your local water conditions
> 2. Compatible with one another
> 3. Suited to the size of tank that you are offering them as a home
> 4. Are happy in the sort of environmental set up you have - for example do
> they need lots of rocks and caves or do they like a planted tank....

That's great, and just what i'll do.

Googling's ok, as is reading books...but nothing beats the
'interactive..er..ness' of NG's when it comes to getting advice. It might
take a while for things to sink in with me, but i get there slowly but
slowly in the end. ;-)

[Koi-Lo]

"Jay Kaner" > wrote in message
...
> Regarding the water. If there are problems, are there ways to go about
> altering the water you have to make it meet your needs?
===================
Don't bother. Get a test kit and find out what's coming from your tap - and
buy fish accordingly. When I lived in NYC we had soft acid water and so I
mainly stuck to the fish that did best in it. For my few goldfish and
livebearers there in NYC I would add dolomite gravel (now you can use many
other easily available products) to keep the water over PH of 7. Here in
TN our water is hard and alkaline. It's easier to raise the PH than to
lower it so I stick to fish that thrive in a PH over 7. My bettas live a
long time in this water but do not breed.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Jay Kaner]

"netDenizen" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Kaner wrote:
>
>>
>> I can get the testing kits ...and i think i'll get some of the other
>> testing kits mentioned around and about in some of the other posts in
>> here, too. That way i'll know what state my water's in.
>>
>> But what i can't get my head round is this... (I'll cut and paste a
>> couple of MangroveJacks comments to explain what i mean)
>>
>>
>>>"It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
>>>soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
>>>hard-alkaline" fish (goldfish, live-bearers etc)environments"
>>
>>
>>>"Get another aquarium if you are serious about
>>>keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish"
>>
>>
>> Now, at the moment my tank has a mix of "warm-water,
>> soft-acidic" type fish (which i'm assuming to mean my 'tropical' fish in
>> general) and "cold-water, hard-alkaline" type fish. i.e the goldfish,
>> the orfe and the black moors.
>>
>> MangorveJack's (and others) advice is to have separate tanks for the two
>> types of fish, which I am going to do. I am on the lookout for a 4' tank
>> for the tropical fish, and to keep my 2' tank (minus the heater) for the
>> goldfish, the orfe and the black moors.
>>
>> Here's the bit i'm struggling with...
>>
>> I will have two tanks. And i have two types of fish. A tank for each
>> type of fish.
>>
>> But i only have one type of water, the one (whatever type it is?) that
>> comes out of my tap.
>>
>> That same tap water will go in both tanks, yet each tank needs different
>> water for the different types of fish...one soft-acidic and the other one
>> hard-alkaline. How can that be done when i only have the 'one' type of
>> water that comes out of my tap??
>>
>> Do you see what i mean?
>>
>>
>>
>
> You can adjust fundamental water chemistry as follows:
>
> If your tap water is (too) soft, you can use a bag of "crushed coral"
> limestone in your filter to add carbonate hardness and buffer pH. I do
> this to prevent any sudden "pH crashes". Some people use chunks of
> limestone and even a full limestone substrate. I started in my current
> soft-water town with a crushed limestone substrate, because I was coming
> from a hard water area. With limestone substrate my plants did not do
> really well, so after 2 years I changed to sand/gravel/clay/peat - and
> curently use commercial plant substrate. There are also jars of buffer
> powder available in pet shops, and I recently purchased Seachem Alkaline
> Buffer and Seachem Equlibrium (adds sulphates) - haven't played with them
> yet, though.

> If your tap water is very hard, you can get a reverse osmosis system that
> will remove almost all dissolved minerals and other things yielding pure
> water. You'd need to add some minerals back in before using the RO water
> in the aquarium. You can also/ instead filter with peat to obtain
> "brownish" Amazon-type water if desired.
>
> Most tap water is just fine for most fish, and it's probably best not to
> mess with it. Testing your water is good, to know what you have. Test both
> the tapwater and the aquarium water. Typically tap water pH may change due
> to degassing over time, so test tap water direct and from a glass that's
> been standing for a day, if you're interested.
>
> The other posters' comments about mixing goldfish with tropical fish are
> not just related to water chemistry; in fact most tropicals would be happy
> in warmish goldfish water, but they're very different types of fish.
> Goldfish: slow, grow very large, eat many plants, will devour small
> tropical fish, are harassed by some tropical fish, considered cool water
> fish but actually do well at "tropical" temperatures. "Tropical" fish are
> very varied. People set up species tanks of mainly one family of fish
> e.g. rainbowfish, regional tanks with say, compatible fish from the Amazon
> region, or aquascaped aquariums representing a particular aquatic
> environment (faster-flowing river, slower-flowing river bank, shallow
> lake...). Many folks just set up an attractive planted community aquarium
> with fish that get along and look nice - I try to do that.
>
> Happy aquarium keeping! For information and ideas there are lots of good
> books, websites, public aquariums and discussion groups.

thanks for all that. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, i'm not going
to mess with things unless i really have to. The fish seem happy enough as
they are but I will be getting a bigger tank for cold and tropical. I'm
going to go for the planted look in the tropical tank. Some of the tanks I
have seen that are full of plants look really nice, and then just add a few
more fish. Actually, i think i'll just keep the tropical fish i already
have and add a big shoal of neon tetras if they go with what i have.

I'll get the testing kits too. Try and keep 'em healthy!!

Once again..cheers for that.

[Jay Kaner]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Kaner wrote:
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote
>>
>>
>>>Another option is how much soap/shampoo you need to get a decent sud -
>>>you need a lot more with hard water....
>>
>>
>> Ah, now then... We have friends that live in London, and the one thing
>> about their water that we noticed the first time we went to visit was how
>> soft it was when you had a bath. We put our usual amount of bubble-bath
>> in as we would here at home ...I've never seen so many bubbles!! they
>> were overflowing!!! Our friends said it was to do with the softness of
>> their water.
>>
>> So, going by that, it would appear the water around here is on the 'hard'
>> side. How hard I don't know. Not the most scientific way of finding
>> out, granted, but a fair indicator...
> So I take it from that that you are in the UK...now I would have thought
> most of London has fairly hard water but East/North London/Essex is
> definitely soft....Berkshire/Oxfordshire/Hampshire would be hard - West
> Country is soft....depends on whether the rock is granite or
> chalk/limestone...

They lived in the north/east area of London. I'm in Yorkshire.

I've just submitted a water quality report request through my water
company's website.
I told them it was in regard to keeping fish and to concentrate the info
around that.
So hopefully I should get the info soon!!

> If you don't condition your water before using it - what does the inside
> of your kettle look like?

Quite a lot of limescale builds up in there over time

[Mister Gardener]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:12:22 GMT, "Jay Kaner" > wrote:

>
>"netDenizen" > wrote in message
...
>> Jay Kaner wrote:
>> The main reason for this post
>>> is I don't understand what you mean with the water.
>>>
>>> "Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely
>>> it's the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes
>>> from the same tap?
>>>
>>
>> Pure water such as distilled water is the same everywhere, but in nature
>> there is always some dissolved material in the water. Commonly there is
>> dissolved limestone from the soil and rocks water travels over, and this
>> produces dissolved carbonates or "carbonate hardness". Other dissolved
>> rocks/minerals such as sulphates (gypsum, anhydrite...) give the water
>> "general hardness". Then there are dissolved organics, especially in
>> somewhat swampy environments, that give the water a light brownish tinge
>> and add acidity.
>>
>> Tap water varies according to the geology of your area. Currently I'm in
>> an area of granitic rocks and the tap water is soft. Previously I had a
>> well that drew water from a limestone aquifer, and that water was very
>> hard.
>>
>> pH is hydrogen ion concentration (acidity, alkalinity) with pH 7.0 being
>> "neutral". Soft waters tend to become acidic (pH < 7) due to fish wastes.
>> "Hard" waters tend to have lots of dissolved carbonate and tend to be
>> alkaline, pH > 7. For most fresh water aquarium fish a pH of 6.5 to 8
>> should be ok, and carbonate hardness should be > 50 parts per million
>> calcium carbonate. There are test kits for all these things; I use an old
>> Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc tap water test kit.
>>
>> Different fish come from different natural environments so may do better
>> in specific water chemistry - check fish books such as Baensch's atlas.
>> Because many fish now come from breeders, they may not have grown up in
>> water like they'd have in nature, though.
>>
>> I guess the biggest thing about water chemistry, as for temperature, is to
>> avoid sudden changes. In addition to the water chemistry I mentioned,
>> there's dissolved salt, nitrate etc. These things should be at low levels
>> in tap water but may accumulate in the aquarium, for example by addition
>> of salt to treat fish illness. Regular partial water changes should keep
>> your aquarium water similar to your tap water - a good thing.
>
>I can get the testing kits ...and i think i'll get some of the other
>testing kits mentioned around and about in some of the other posts in here,
>too. That way i'll know what state my water's in.
>
>But what i can't get my head round is this... (I'll cut and paste a couple
>of MangroveJacks comments to explain what i mean)
>
>> "It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
>> soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
>> hard-alkaline" fish (goldfish, live-bearers etc)environments"
>
>> "Get another aquarium if you are serious about
>> keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish"
>
>Now, at the moment my tank has a mix of "warm-water,
>soft-acidic" type fish (which i'm assuming to mean my 'tropical' fish in
>general) and "cold-water, hard-alkaline" type fish. i.e the goldfish, the
>orfe and the black moors.
>
>MangorveJack's (and others) advice is to have separate tanks for the two
>types of fish, which I am going to do. I am on the lookout for a 4' tank
>for the tropical fish, and to keep my 2' tank (minus the heater) for the
>goldfish, the orfe and the black moors.
>
>Here's the bit i'm struggling with...
>
>I will have two tanks. And i have two types of fish. A tank for each type
>of fish.
>
>But i only have one type of water, the one (whatever type it is?) that comes
>out of my tap.
>
>That same tap water will go in both tanks, yet each tank needs different
>water for the different types of fish...one soft-acidic and the other one
>hard-alkaline. How can that be done when i only have the 'one' type of
>water that comes out of my tap??
>
>Do you see what i mean?

If the water from your tap shows that you have a middle of the range
pH and medium hardness, all of your fish will do fine in it. The
temperature difference is the only major difference. If the water from
your tap is extremely hard or extremely soft, extremely acid or
extremely alkaline, you may have to choose to do some things to change
the hardness or pH. Most commonly kept fish do well in "average"
water, with a generous safe range of parameters. But nothing can be
determined until you learn about what is coming out of your tap. Many
people follow the popular wisdom of choosing fish that are known to do
well in their particular water, rather than continuously messing with
their water in an effort to change it to suit the fish. Certainly for
newbies to the hobby, the way to go is choose fish that go with your
water. I strongly encourage you to spend some time reading the Aquaria
FAQs at The Krib. And get your tap water tested.

-- Mister Gardener

Everything Aquaria & Tropical Fish at The Krib:
http://www.thekrib.com/

[Gill Passman]

Jay Kaner wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Jay Kaner wrote:
>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Another option is how much soap/shampoo you need to get a decent sud -
>>>>you need a lot more with hard water....
>>>
>>>
>>>Ah, now then... We have friends that live in London, and the one thing
>>>about their water that we noticed the first time we went to visit was how
>>>soft it was when you had a bath. We put our usual amount of bubble-bath
>>>in as we would here at home ...I've never seen so many bubbles!! they
>>>were overflowing!!! Our friends said it was to do with the softness of
>>>their water.
>>>
>>>So, going by that, it would appear the water around here is on the 'hard'
>>>side. How hard I don't know. Not the most scientific way of finding
>>>out, granted, but a fair indicator...
>>
>>So I take it from that that you are in the UK...now I would have thought
>>most of London has fairly hard water but East/North London/Essex is
>>definitely soft....Berkshire/Oxfordshire/Hampshire would be hard - West
>>Country is soft....depends on whether the rock is granite or
>>chalk/limestone...
>
>
> They lived in the north/east area of London. I'm in Yorkshire.
>
> I've just submitted a water quality report request through my water
> company's website.
> I told them it was in regard to keeping fish and to concentrate the info
> around that.
> So hopefully I should get the info soon!!
>
>
>>If you don't condition your water before using it - what does the inside
>>of your kettle look like?
>
>
> Quite a lot of limescale builds up in there over time
>
>
>
Then it sounds like you have hard water - but I'm not familiar with the
water type in Yorkshire....hmmm, I never knew you could request a water
quality report in the UK....

Gill

[Jay Kaner]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Kaner wrote:
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Jay Kaner wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Another option is how much soap/shampoo you need to get a decent sud -
>>>>>you need a lot more with hard water....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ah, now then... We have friends that live in London, and the one thing
>>>>about their water that we noticed the first time we went to visit was
>>>>how soft it was when you had a bath. We put our usual amount of
>>>>bubble-bath in as we would here at home ...I've never seen so many
>>>>bubbles!! they were overflowing!!! Our friends said it was to do with
>>>>the softness of their water.
>>>>
>>>>So, going by that, it would appear the water around here is on the
>>>>'hard' side. How hard I don't know. Not the most scientific way of
>>>>finding out, granted, but a fair indicator...
>>>
>>>So I take it from that that you are in the UK...now I would have thought
>>>most of London has fairly hard water but East/North London/Essex is
>>>definitely soft....Berkshire/Oxfordshire/Hampshire would be hard - West
>>>Country is soft....depends on whether the rock is granite or
>>>chalk/limestone...
>>
>>
>> They lived in the north/east area of London. I'm in Yorkshire.
>>
>> I've just submitted a water quality report request through my water
>> company's website.
>> I told them it was in regard to keeping fish and to concentrate the info
>> around that.
>> So hopefully I should get the info soon!!
>>
>>
>>>If you don't condition your water before using it - what does the inside
>>>of your kettle look like?
>>
>>
>> Quite a lot of limescale builds up in there over time
>>
>>
>>
> Then it sounds like you have hard water - but I'm not familiar with the
> water type in Yorkshire....hmmm, I never knew you could request a water
> quality report in the UK....

I don't know if it's just Yorkshire Water that does it. They also had a
page for fish keepers.

[netDenizen]

Gill Passman wrote:
I never knew you could request a water
> quality report in the UK....

Here in Ontario, Canada, the water utility has some water quality
summaries posted on the Internet. They're a year or two old, but give a
good idea of the overall water quality supplied from different water
supply stations.

[Gill Passman]

netDenizen wrote:
> Gill Passman wrote:
> I never knew you could request a water
>
>> quality report in the UK....
>
>
> Here in Ontario, Canada, the water utility has some water quality
> summaries posted on the Internet. They're a year or two old, but give a
> good idea of the overall water quality supplied from different water
> supply stations.
>
I just checked the website of my supplier and this all they say:-

"A natural mix of calcium and magnesium causes the hardness in the
water. Hard water can lead to the build up of scale and may affect the
appearance of hot drinks. All the water in our region is considered to
be hard, but it isn’t harmful to health.

The areas we supply with water vary in hardness. But the area around
Guildford is the softest in our region. "

So as I don't live in Guildford I guess they mean mine is as hard as
nails....

They will give me advice and information on water hardness if I call a
free-phone number and have the manual for my dishwasher at the ready - lol

Gill

PS did find out though that I can still use a hosepipe to fill a pond....

[Koi-Lo]

"sew crazy" > wrote in message
...
> Here I sit and think I must be the luckiest fish keeper around I just
> connect a pipe to the mixer tap in the kitchen open the cold and some hot
> till the temp is more or less the same as the tank usually test it by
> "feeling" it then shove the hose in the one side while I drain the other
> side ...

Those of us with utility water that is chlorinated can't do that. It would
use a lot of dechlorinator.

> sine I connect the pipe for draining to my no longer working undergravel
> filter and it drains faster then the inflow I just leave it till there is
> about 1" of water left just enough for the fish to be upright/slanted
> then I stop the drain process and just let the tank fill up ... dont
> bother with Tap safe stuff ...
> switch back on the heater and lights and whalla ... 90-100% water
> replacement once a week :)

Sounds good! :-) I bet the fish love it. I had too many accidents with
refilling using a Python but will soon have my husband add a U so it can't
slip out of my tanks again.

> 120L tank mostly guppies(with Loads of babies), swords, mollies, Pl*c,
> Ancestrus, and few corries ohhh and a mother of a snail and few plants
> ....

I drain mine out the back door (saving about 50g for the tropical house
plants), then refill with a bucket.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>