First aquarium... need some advice...

[tony]

Am intrested in learning more about fish and aquariums and (yesterday)
bought a 16 gallon bow front tank, Aqua clear 'mini' cycleguard filter
and one gold fish (forgot the specific type of fish, but its about 3
in. in length.

I have the goldfish in a small bowl I also bought since the lady at
the petstore said the tank/filter should run for 3-4 days first.

I added tap water and stress coat to the aquarium and installed the
filter - water was cloudy, but about 24 hours later looks a lot
clearer.

Am I doing everything right so far?

I dont know if I want to just get 2 or 3 more of the same type of
goldfish or get tropical fish of some type - i'd like something fairly
playful and active since my kids will get a kick out of watching them
play around.

What advice can you all give where thats concerned?

I've read (after the fact) that its better for a beginner to get a
tank thats 20 gallons (its true that smaller ones are more work???),
but am not ready to go out and get another one now - maybe next year.

Thanks for any help/links you can provide.

[Sue]

It is true that bigger tanks are easier but 16 gallons is ok for a small
tropical fish community. It is not suitable for even one goldfish!
The goldfish should be out of the bowl. The idea of keeping the tank fish
free is explained here; http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/beginner.htm and
http://faq.thekrib.com/fish-popular.html.
The principles of cycling are simple. Bacteria break down the ammonia in
fish waste down to nitrites which are further broken down by different
bacteria to nitrates which are either used by plants or acted on by yet more
bacteria.
Without this bacterial action the fish become poisoned by their own wastes.
Your goldfish would be better off in the tank rather than sitting in it's
own wastes in a bowl.
I'd suggest you either take that fish back now or use it to cycle the tank &
then return it and get a few small tropical fish. It would be worthwhile
buying test kits. If your LFS does water tests do take a sample of your
water & then let us know the readings- particularly hardness & pH. We can
then suggest fish that will thrive under those conditions and save you a lot
of anguish.
Cheers,
Sue

"tony" > wrote in message
om...
> Am intrested in learning more about fish and aquariums and (yesterday)
> bought a 16 gallon bow front tank, Aqua clear 'mini' cycleguard filter
> and one gold fish (forgot the specific type of fish, but its about 3
> in. in length.
>
> I have the goldfish in a small bowl I also bought since the lady at
> the petstore said the tank/filter should run for 3-4 days first.
>
> I added tap water and stress coat to the aquarium and installed the
> filter - water was cloudy, but about 24 hours later looks a lot
> clearer.
>
> Am I doing everything right so far?
>
> I dont know if I want to just get 2 or 3 more of the same type of
> goldfish or get tropical fish of some type - i'd like something fairly
> playful and active since my kids will get a kick out of watching them
> play around.
>
> What advice can you all give where thats concerned?
>
> I've read (after the fact) that its better for a beginner to get a
> tank thats 20 gallons (its true that smaller ones are more work???),
> but am not ready to go out and get another one now - maybe next year.
>
> Thanks for any help/links you can provide.

[Houseslave]

Ask your LFS for some gravel from a tank of floss from their filter. You
want to introduce bacteria to the tank. ALso, buy some BioSpira or Fritzyme.
Many of the other bacteria in a bottle don't work. I would use the goldfish
to help cycle the tank. You will also need a heater if you decide to keep
tropical fish in that tank. GOldfish like it cooler but most tropicla fish
like it aorund 75. Give the tank time to cycle. You will also need a test
kit to measure PH, Nitrites, Ammonia and Nitrates. Start reading too there
is a lot of info. on the web.

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> It is true that bigger tanks are easier but 16 gallons is ok for a small
> tropical fish community. It is not suitable for even one goldfish!
> The goldfish should be out of the bowl. The idea of keeping the tank fish
> free is explained here; http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/beginner.htm and
> http://faq.thekrib.com/fish-popular.html.
> The principles of cycling are simple. Bacteria break down the ammonia in
> fish waste down to nitrites which are further broken down by different
> bacteria to nitrates which are either used by plants or acted on by yet
more
> bacteria.
> Without this bacterial action the fish become poisoned by their own
wastes.
> Your goldfish would be better off in the tank rather than sitting in it's
> own wastes in a bowl.
> I'd suggest you either take that fish back now or use it to cycle the tank
&
> then return it and get a few small tropical fish. It would be worthwhile
> buying test kits. If your LFS does water tests do take a sample of your
> water & then let us know the readings- particularly hardness & pH. We can
> then suggest fish that will thrive under those conditions and save you a
lot
> of anguish.
> Cheers,
> Sue
>
> "tony" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Am intrested in learning more about fish and aquariums and (yesterday)
> > bought a 16 gallon bow front tank, Aqua clear 'mini' cycleguard filter
> > and one gold fish (forgot the specific type of fish, but its about 3
> > in. in length.
> >
> > I have the goldfish in a small bowl I also bought since the lady at
> > the petstore said the tank/filter should run for 3-4 days first.
> >
> > I added tap water and stress coat to the aquarium and installed the
> > filter - water was cloudy, but about 24 hours later looks a lot
> > clearer.
> >
> > Am I doing everything right so far?
> >
> > I dont know if I want to just get 2 or 3 more of the same type of
> > goldfish or get tropical fish of some type - i'd like something fairly
> > playful and active since my kids will get a kick out of watching them
> > play around.
> >
> > What advice can you all give where thats concerned?
> >
> > I've read (after the fact) that its better for a beginner to get a
> > tank thats 20 gallons (its true that smaller ones are more work???),
> > but am not ready to go out and get another one now - maybe next year.
> >
> > Thanks for any help/links you can provide.
>
>

[Rick]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> It is true that bigger tanks are easier but 16 gallons is ok for a small
> tropical fish community. It is not suitable for even one goldfish!
> The goldfish should be out of the bowl. The idea of keeping the tank fish
> free is explained here; http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/beginner.htm and
> http://faq.thekrib.com/fish-popular.html.
> The principles of cycling are simple. Bacteria break down the ammonia in
> fish waste down to nitrites which are further broken down by different
> bacteria to nitrates which are either used by plants or acted on by yet
more
> bacteria.
> Without this bacterial action the fish become poisoned by their own
wastes.
> Your goldfish would be better off in the tank rather than sitting in it's
> own wastes in a bowl.
> I'd suggest you either take that fish back now or use it to cycle the tank
&
> then return it and get a few small tropical fish. It would be worthwhile
> buying test kits. If your LFS does water tests do take a sample of your
> water & then let us know the readings- particularly hardness & pH. We can
> then suggest fish that will thrive under those conditions and save you a
lot
> of anguish.
> Cheers,
> Sue


why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.

Rick

[Paul]

Rick wrote in message >...
>
>"Sue" > wrote in message
...
>> It is true that bigger tanks are easier but 16 gallons is ok for a small
>> tropical fish community. It is not suitable for even one goldfish!
>> The goldfish should be out of the bowl. The idea of keeping the tank fish
>> free is explained here; http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/beginner.htm and
>> http://faq.thekrib.com/fish-popular.html.
>> The principles of cycling are simple. Bacteria break down the ammonia in
>> fish waste down to nitrites which are further broken down by different
>> bacteria to nitrates which are either used by plants or acted on by yet
>more
>> bacteria.
>> Without this bacterial action the fish become poisoned by their own
>wastes.
>> Your goldfish would be better off in the tank rather than sitting in it's
>> own wastes in a bowl.
>> I'd suggest you either take that fish back now or use it to cycle the
tank
>&
>> then return it and get a few small tropical fish. It would be worthwhile
>> buying test kits. If your LFS does water tests do take a sample of your
>> water & then let us know the readings- particularly hardness & pH. We can
>> then suggest fish that will thrive under those conditions and save you a
>lot
>> of anguish.
>> Cheers,
>> Sue
>
>
>why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.
>
>Rick
>

I've often wondered about this myself... I wonder if people are considering
a "gold fish" to be a foot-long comet or if they are considering the little
1inch ones..

surely if you have a good filter you will have enough surface area for
bacteria to match the bio load of the fish.

[Dinky]

"Rick" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.
>
> Rick
>

It's too small. Even a comet has a potential size of 12" or more. The
popularity of goldfish is a crime, to the fish, at least. Millions of them
are sentenced to death every year due to cramped quarters causing stunted
growth and eventual death.

[Terry Wright]

There is a nice internet radio show which discusses how to properly
set up a aquarium. You can hear the stored broadcasts at:

http://www.petfishtalk.com/shows/021218.htm#segment_4

One of the segments listed covers goldfish.

[Sue]

"Rick" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.
>
> Rick
Because goldfish like company & the tank isn't big enough for two!
Sue

[Rick]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.
> >
> > Rick
> Because goldfish like company & the tank isn't big enough for two!
> Sue
>


hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite sometime
without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish but
they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space is 10
gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change and
type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a couple of
the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.

Rick

[Geezer From Freezer]

Rick wrote:
> hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite sometime
> without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish but
> they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space is 10
> gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change and
> type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a couple of
> the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.
>
> Rick

define "sometime" - goldfish can live upto 20 years. I suspect 6 in a 25 would
be lucky
to pass the 3 year mark.

Goldfish need space to swim freely.

[Sue]

Exactly Rick,
Your fish are stunted!

I put six 1"- 2" goldfish into a pond last June. They are now all well over
six inches ( not counting tails) .The Shubunkins from the year before are
over eight inches!
Keeping goldfish in small tanks is like trying to keep tinfoil barbs in
small tanks and just because they may survive doesn't mean they will thrive.
You could keep a couple of small fantails for a while but they would need a
larger tank sooner rather than later. Far better to get fish more suited to
the tank size.

Sue

> hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite sometime
> without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish but
> they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space is 10
> gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change and
> type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a couple of
> the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.
>
> Rick
>
>

[Elizabeth Naime]

Quoth (tony) on 9 Mar 2004 11:38:33 -0800,

>Am intrested in learning more about fish and aquariums and (yesterday)
>bought a 16 gallon bow front tank, Aqua clear 'mini' cycleguard filter
>and one gold fish (forgot the specific type of fish, but its about 3
>in. in length.
>
>I have the goldfish in a small bowl I also bought since the lady at
>the petstore said the tank/filter should run for 3-4 days first.

The problem with this is, where is the filter in the bowl?? The fish in
the bowl is still producing the waste products that the filter needs to
catch up with, and in a smaller amount of water.

I'm guessing you have a goldfish, since there are few if any "small gold
fish" that anyone would recommend keeping in a bowl. Depending on the
type of goldfish, you may well need a larger tank. We'll talk about that
later, since you can get away with 16 gallons while the fish is still
3".

I would really recommend that you put the fish in the tank NOW.
Conditions will not be ideal because your tank has not grown the
nitrifying bacteria that keep the tank "clean" of ammonia and nitrite.
But the fish should be less stressed and the water should be less toxic
if you have 16 gallons as opposed to the 2 gallons or less in a bowl.
Put a bubbler in the tank as well and if the store didn't sell you a
water quality test kit, go buy one or more now. You need to test for
ammonia and nitrites at minimum, and ideally you should get tests that
will track nitrAte and pH as well. Seachem, I think, makes a nice little
"ammonia alert" that attaches to the side of your tank and will let you
check for the presence of ammonia just by looking at it.

Your goal is 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, nitrates under 20 ppm, and a pH that
depends on the type of fish you have but should in any case not vary
greatly. Goldfish are tolerant of a wide pH range, so for a goldfish
tank I'd recommend testing the pH of your tap water and trying to
support pH at that level.

The cycle everyone talks about has to do with the growth and development
of the nitrifying bacteria. Ammonia will show up first, because it's a
major fish waste product. There are bacteria that convert ammonia to
nitrite, and when these come online your ammonia will dissapear but you
will have nitrites in the water. Both ammonia and nitrite are toxic to
fish, so you will need to do water changes whenever you see either. When
you start to see nitrites, add a little salt (aquarium salt or pure
unidiodized salt with no anti-caking agents) -- I would use four
teaspoons for this tank. Place aquarium salt in a container inside the
tank, a betta cup like petsores use with some holes cut in the lid is
usually recommended. Finer salts (like pickling and canning salt, which
is pure NaCl without additives and without anti-caking agents) must be
carefully dissolved and spread around. DO NOT put any salts directly
into the filter. Yes, it would be a great way to slowly dissolve and
spread the salt around, but the high concentration of salt in the filter
will kill your helpful bacteria. Once nitrites are present the bacteria
that convert nitrite to nitrate will start flourishing, and one day
(which can't come too soon and always takes too long) you will test your
water and find that all of a sudden you have NO nitrites and NO ammonia.

Feed lightly and sparingly while the tank is cycling; this will keep
your fish wastes to a bare minimum.

Back to what type of fish you have there. Is the tail fin single or
double? What is the fish's body shape -- sort of like the Jesus Fish on
a car, or more like a golf ball, or (most likely) somewhere inbetween?

The Jesus Fish outline, with a single tail, is a comet or a common
goldfish. These fish are often sold as feeders. Once they get through
the first few weeks at home they are very hardy fish. However, they grow
quite large, and they need swimming room. You have time, because the
fish is small now, but I really like to see single-tails in a 50 gallon
or better. Once you've seen 8-12" fish booking around a large tank,
anything less just looks... sad. I keep mine in groups in 120 gallon
aquaria, and I enjoy them immensely. 120s do take up a lot of space and
are heavy enough that you need to be keenly aware of where you're
putting them; I realize they aren't for everyone. With a 50 or 55 gallon
you can have four or five single-tails.

On the other extreme, the goldfish that looks like a golf ball with fins
is the pearlscale. It's not likely that you have one of these are they
aren't a common first goldfish.

In between are goldfish with more rounded and less elongated bodies,
usually with a double tail fin: most commonly found in pet stores are
the fantails, ryukins, and orandas. These fish can also become quite
large but they don't become as long as the single-tails, and so one
could be quite happy in a 16 gallon. Goldfish do seem to like company,
so you would need to move up to at least a 20 gallon to keep a pair. I
would not recommend any other fish for a 16 gallon for the long term.
You can get away with more fish in the short term, while all are still
small, but I don't believe stunting can be good for their health and I
would strongly suggest that if you want to keep more smaller fish, you
include a longer-term plan for a larger tank to move them up into next
year.

If you had a slightly larger tank, and this MAY still be possible in a
16 gallon (I'll wait to hear from the loach folks on this one), you
could add a weather loach - usually sold as Spotted Dojo or Golden Dojo
(different color, same fish). These elongated "eel-like" fish usualy
reach 8", or that's what I've read anyway. You would need a well-covered
tank, because they jump, both accidentally and probably intentionally.
You can learn more about them at
http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/wloach.html . They like cooler
waters, so could be a better choice for cohabiting with goldfish. I've
always thought they were neat-looking fish, and from what I've read they
seem extremely personable, a fish the whole family will enjoy. Do double
check with people who have more non-goldfish experience, though. It
seems a good match to me, but I am only just starting a tropical tank,
and have in the past kept only goldfish and koi.

There are other fish that you might keep several of in a small tank like
yours. Rosy reds come to mind, a charming little minnow sold as a
feeder. They tolerate a good temperature range, do well in unheated
aquaria at reasonable room temperatures, and have a small but
enthusiastic following as pet fish. With a heater, usually needed for
tropicals, there are options for colorful fish that remain small like
the neon tetras. Livebearers like swordtails, mollies, and guppies stay
small and can be very colorful -- but you may then have to deal with
their breeding. Guppies in particular are kept in mixed groups, males
become very aggressive to each other if there are no females in the
tank, and their reproductive speed and efficiency is legend.

I don't think any of these, expect possibly the rosy reds, would be
compatible with goldfish. But if you are permitted to "trade in" the
goldfish and if you are willing to do so (I get attached too quickly!)
you would have more choices in which fish to put in a 16 gallon.
-----------------------------------------
Only know that there is no spork.

[NetMax]

I think that pond growth might be more related to the almost continuous
source of fresh food (mosquito larvae) than with water quality or
swimming area. The guideline on Goldfish is very useful for beginners.
An experienced aquarist can achieve quality results by overfiltering and
'maniacal' ;~) water change routines. Goldfish do not suffer from a bit
of crowding like some fish. In large tanks, I've seen them huddled
together, because there is comfort in numbers. Hopefully, we are
discussing short bodied fan-tails which grow to 8". Comets, Shubunkins
and Koi are not really aquarium fish.

A 16g is fine imo for a couple of small fantails, especially in
experienced hands, but they will outgrow it. I have three 6 or 7 inch
(not including the tail) Ryukins bobbing around quite happily in a 100g,
but they would be ok in a 60g as well. Another guideline is 3g of water
per inch of fish (not including the tail). I find this guideline more
workable, and very useful as a guide for filtration. I periodically get
Goldfish donated which are literally too big to eat from the surface (too
long to angle upwards). Typically came from a 5 or 10g tank in a
kitchen, where it lovingly got lots of water changes. My indoor pond at
work is a retirement home of sorts ;~)

cheers
NetMax

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Exactly Rick,
> Your fish are stunted!
>
> I put six 1"- 2" goldfish into a pond last June. They are now all well
over
> six inches ( not counting tails) .The Shubunkins from the year before
are
> over eight inches!
> Keeping goldfish in small tanks is like trying to keep tinfoil barbs in
> small tanks and just because they may survive doesn't mean they will
thrive.
> You could keep a couple of small fantails for a while but they would
need a
> larger tank sooner rather than later. Far better to get fish more
suited to
> the tank size.
>
> Sue
>
> > hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite
sometime
> > without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish
but
> > they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space
is 10
> > gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change
and
> > type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a
couple of
> > the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> >
>
>

[NetMax]

"Elizabeth Naime" > wrote in message
...
> Quoth (tony) on 9 Mar 2004 11:38:33 -0800,
>
<snipped good info>
>
> If you had a slightly larger tank, and this MAY still be possible in a
> 16 gallon (I'll wait to hear from the loach folks on this one), you
> could add a weather loach - usually sold as Spotted Dojo or Golden Dojo
> (different color, same fish). These elongated "eel-like" fish usualy
> reach 8", or that's what I've read anyway. You would need a
well-covered
> tank, because they jump, both accidentally and probably intentionally.
> You can learn more about them at
> http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/wloach.html . They like cooler
> waters, so could be a better choice for cohabiting with goldfish. I've
> always thought they were neat-looking fish, and from what I've read
they
> seem extremely personable, a fish the whole family will enjoy. <snip>

FWIW, for tanks smaller than 40g, I recommend Apple snails for
bottom-feeding & algae control. Over 40g I split the job to plecos and
Dojos.

I also have an Albino Clawed frog with some GF and they are co-habitating
nicely (the GF are too big for him to shovel them into his mouth ;~).

NetMax

[Chris Palma]

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, NetMax wrote:

>
> "Elizabeth Naime" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Quoth (tony) on 9 Mar 2004 11:38:33 -0800,
> >
> <snipped good info>
> >
> > If you had a slightly larger tank, and this MAY still be possible in a
> > 16 gallon (I'll wait to hear from the loach folks on this one), you
> > could add a weather loach - usually sold as Spotted Dojo or Golden Dojo
> > (different color, same fish). These elongated "eel-like" fish usualy
> > reach 8", or that's what I've read anyway. You would need a
> well-covered
> > tank, because they jump, both accidentally and probably intentionally.
> > You can learn more about them at
> > http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/wloach.html . They like cooler
> > waters, so could be a better choice for cohabiting with goldfish. I've
> > always thought they were neat-looking fish, and from what I've read
> they
> > seem extremely personable, a fish the whole family will enjoy. <snip>
>
> FWIW, for tanks smaller than 40g, I recommend Apple snails for
> bottom-feeding & algae control. Over 40g I split the job to plecos and
> Dojos.
>
> I also have an Albino Clawed frog with some GF and they are co-habitating
> nicely (the GF are too big for him to shovel them into his mouth ;~).
>
> NetMax
>

What about Otos for algae control? I've heard the stories that they have
a high mortality rate, but my LFS recommended them to me for algae
control. Are apple snail populations as hard to control as other snails?
I've heard other stories about snails getting out of control and predators
being added to tanks just to eradicate the booming snail population.

--chris

[NetMax]

"Chris Palma" > wrote in message
tro.Virginia.EDU...
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, NetMax wrote:
>
> >
> > "Elizabeth Naime" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Quoth (tony) on 9 Mar 2004 11:38:33 -0800,
> > >
> > <snipped good info>
> > >
> > > If you had a slightly larger tank, and this MAY still be possible
in a
> > > 16 gallon (I'll wait to hear from the loach folks on this one), you
> > > could add a weather loach - usually sold as Spotted Dojo or Golden
Dojo
> > > (different color, same fish). These elongated "eel-like" fish
usualy
> > > reach 8", or that's what I've read anyway. You would need a
> > well-covered
> > > tank, because they jump, both accidentally and probably
intentionally.
> > > You can learn more about them at
> > > http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/wloach.html . They like cooler
> > > waters, so could be a better choice for cohabiting with goldfish.
I've
> > > always thought they were neat-looking fish, and from what I've read
> > they
> > > seem extremely personable, a fish the whole family will enjoy.
<snip>
> >
> > FWIW, for tanks smaller than 40g, I recommend Apple snails for
> > bottom-feeding & algae control. Over 40g I split the job to plecos
and
> > Dojos.
> >
> > I also have an Albino Clawed frog with some GF and they are
co-habitating
> > nicely (the GF are too big for him to shovel them into his mouth ;~).
> >
> > NetMax
> >
>
> What about Otos for algae control? I've heard the stories that they
have
> a high mortality rate, but my LFS recommended them to me for algae
> control. Are apple snail populations as hard to control as other
snails?
> I've heard other stories about snails getting out of control and
predators
> being added to tanks just to eradicate the booming snail population.
>
> --chris

Your LFS recommended that mix, eh? hmmm. Goldfish & Otos are not
appropriate tank-mates for several reasons : i) they like opposite water
parameters (hard vs soft water), ii) they come from different
temperatures (cool vs warm), iii) Goldfish put everything in their mouth
(and Otos stay small), and iv) Otos are a bit fragile and somewhat
sensitive to ammonia and low oxygen (and Goldfish are in the top three
waste producers class, with Plecos and Oscars).

Pond snails can explode in population. Apple snails lay their eggs out
of the water, and their success rate is not very good. I've only
encountered 2 people who regularly have & raise Apple snails. I think
that it takes a bit of effort and the right conditions.

NetMax

[Chris Palma]

> >
> > What about Otos for algae control? I've heard the stories that they
> have
> > a high mortality rate, but my LFS recommended them to me for algae
> > control. Are apple snail populations as hard to control as other
> snails?
> > I've heard other stories about snails getting out of control and
> predators
> > being added to tanks just to eradicate the booming snail population.
> >
> > --chris
>
> Your LFS recommended that mix, eh? hmmm. Goldfish & Otos are not
> appropriate tank-mates for several reasons : i) they like opposite water
> parameters (hard vs soft water), ii) they come from different
> temperatures (cool vs warm), iii) Goldfish put everything in their mouth
> (and Otos stay small), and iv) Otos are a bit fragile and somewhat
> sensitive to ammonia and low oxygen (and Goldfish are in the top three
> waste producers class, with Plecos and Oscars).
>
> Pond snails can explode in population. Apple snails lay their eggs out
> of the water, and their success rate is not very good. I've only
> encountered 2 people who regularly have & raise Apple snails. I think
> that it takes a bit of effort and the right conditions.
>
> NetMax
>

Sorry -- I should have been more explicit -- I joined this thread late.
My LFS recommended Oto's for my community tank which is mostly dwarf fish
(all < 2"). I was just wondering why you didn't mention Oto's as algae
eaters, since it seemed like you were discussing algae eaters in general,
not just for GF tanks.

--chris

[NetMax]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> . net>,
> says...
<snip>
> There's a lot of good advice in this group, but there's also a
> large population of folks that think every fish must have
> optimum conditions. They sure don't get that in the natural
> state :-).
>
> There was a post in one of the aquaria groups the other day that
> said stunting was not true. Goldfish would quit growing in a
> smaller tank at some point, but if moved to a larger tank in the
> future they would resume normal growth - no stunting damage.
> I'd like to hear more from that poster on the subject - like
> some references.

A runt (stunting) theory = non-optimal conditions during juvenile stages
can cause a fish to permanently stay small, or unable to obtain normal
size.

<snip>
> I can just see the keyboards heating up in response to this :-).

LOL, but what if there is no black or white answer to this? Physically,
the juvenile stages of organisms adapt more easily to their environment,
so the biggest growth push occurs when fish are younger (supporting the
runt theory). In any batch of fry, all given identical conditions, you
will almost always have a % of runts (supporting random selection).
There is reasonable speculation that fish release a hormone into the
water (or it's NO3 levels), and the concentration read back is a growth
trigger or inhibitor (more hormone means less water which means less
food, so stay small to survive, less hormone means more water which means
more food, so grow big to compete) and this would dispute the runt
theory, if fish are continuously adaptable to environmental changes. The
size and flow of the waterways the fish evolved in will also be a
significant factor in how the runt theory can apply or be refuted. It
might be safe to say that everyone is partially correct, but I think our
objective should be to provide size-appropriate conditions for every
stage of their development.

NetMax

[NetMax]

"Chris Palma" > wrote in message
tro.Virginia.EDU...
> > >
> > > What about Otos for algae control? I've heard the stories that
they
> > have
> > > a high mortality rate, but my LFS recommended them to me for algae
> > > control. Are apple snail populations as hard to control as other
> > snails?
> > > I've heard other stories about snails getting out of control and
> > predators
> > > being added to tanks just to eradicate the booming snail
population.
> > >
> > > --chris
> >
> > Your LFS recommended that mix, eh? hmmm. Goldfish & Otos are not
> > appropriate tank-mates for several reasons : i) they like opposite
water
> > parameters (hard vs soft water), ii) they come from different
> > temperatures (cool vs warm), iii) Goldfish put everything in their
mouth
> > (and Otos stay small), and iv) Otos are a bit fragile and somewhat
> > sensitive to ammonia and low oxygen (and Goldfish are in the top
three
> > waste producers class, with Plecos and Oscars).
> >
> > Pond snails can explode in population. Apple snails lay their eggs
out
> > of the water, and their success rate is not very good. I've only
> > encountered 2 people who regularly have & raise Apple snails. I
think
> > that it takes a bit of effort and the right conditions.
> >
> > NetMax
> >
>
> Sorry -- I should have been more explicit -- I joined this thread late.
> My LFS recommended Oto's for my community tank which is mostly dwarf
fish
> (all < 2"). I was just wondering why you didn't mention Oto's as algae
> eaters, since it seemed like you were discussing algae eaters in
general,
> not just for GF tanks.
>
> --chris

Gotcha, yup, back to a tropical tank, small fish, warm neutral to acidic
water ; Otos are little keeners, but it takes quite a few to get the job
done right. I especially recommend them for heated 10 to 20g tanks.
Above 20g, you have more options, but a shoal of Otos lying around the
leaves, or travelling together is still a lovely sight.

There might be a dozen types of algae, and none of the algae eaters will
eat all of the types, so ymmv. Generally, the type of algae you have, is
the kind your algae eaters don't eat (or you wouldn't have it ;~).

NetMax

[Sue]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...

> There's a lot of good advice in this group, but there's also a
> large population of folks that think every fish must have
> optimum conditions. They sure don't get that in the natural
> state :-).

No they don't but that is no reason for an aquarist not trying to give them
optimum conditions!

I'm sure you'll agree that not all children get optimum care. extrapolate
that per your fish argument.
Sue

[Rick]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> . net>,
> says...
> >
> > It's too small. Even a comet has a potential size of 12" or more. The
> > popularity of goldfish is a crime, to the fish, at least. Millions of
them
> > are sentenced to death every year due to cramped quarters causing
stunted
> > growth and eventual death.
>
> There's a lot of good advice in this group, but there's also a
> large population of folks that think every fish must have
> optimum conditions. They sure don't get that in the natural
> state :-).
>
> There was a post in one of the aquaria groups the other day that
> said stunting was not true. Goldfish would quit growing in a
> smaller tank at some point, but if moved to a larger tank in the
> future they would resume normal growth - no stunting damage.
> I'd like to hear more from that poster on the subject - like
> some references.
>
> But I do know that I kept two shubunkins in a 10 gallon tank (or
> maybe it was only 5) for close to ten years with no filtration,
> no plants. Just weekly partial water changes. They finally
> died when my little sister dumped a whole container of food in
> the tank at once.
>
> So put your fish in the 16 gallon tank and after it's cycled buy
> him a playmate. If you keep the tank chemistry as close to the
> criteria as you can, don't overfeed, and put in a good filter,
> your fish will probably be healthy and happy for years. They'll
> probably never exceed 4-5 inches, but if it bothers you when
> they stop growing you can always get a bigger tank then.
>
> I can just see the keyboards heating up in response to this :-).
>
> --

good points Larry and some that I have tried to make over and over again.
There are a lot of good intentioned people out there that have knowledge but
perhaps not practical experience. You can go anywhere on the web and find
information that says you should have only one goldfish per 10 gallons. So
someone has a 10 or 16 gallon tank and goes and buys a couple of small
goldfish and right away he is told to take them back to the store asap or
get a bigger tank. It's akin to the many posts that show up for people who
buy Bala Sharks and Clown Loaches and have a 20 or 30 gallon tank and are
told the same thing. I have made the point that I had 6 goldfish that by the
time I got rid of them were about 3" in size and were housed in a 25 g tall
tank and I had no problem at all. I did biweekly water changes and gravel
vac's , the tank also had an UGF and an airstone. I donated those fish to a
Nursing Home where they joined several other goldfish and more than a year
later those fish are alive and well. I prefer to tell people that want fish
that will eventually get too big for the tank they have to check with the
LFS and see if they will take them back when that time comes. You can always
trade them in for smaller one's. Last week I took 4 Bala Sharks back to my
LFS . I had them for more than 2 years and they had grown to about 4-5
inches. Coincidently a lady had contacted our local aquarium society wanting
to get rid of her 7" Bala Shark and could find no takers so I offered to
come over and pick it up. When I got to her suite she had that shark in a 20
g tall tank. I almost couldn't believe my eyes. The fish looked absolutely
huge in that tank however it had grown well, was in excellent health and
was a beautiful looking fish. Now I would never keep one that size in that
tank however she had the fish for 4 years and it most definitely was not
stunted. So to newbies who have their heart set on Bala's, Goldfish, Oscars
or what ever. Buy them and enjoy them, look after their needs with regular
water changes and when they get too big for your tank then trade them in but
don't limit your enjoyment of the hobby simply because you did not buy a big
enough tank.

Rick

[Elizabeth Naime]

Quoth Chris Palma > on Wed, 10 Mar 2004
17:16:06 -0500,

>What about Otos for algae control? I've heard the stories that they have
>a high mortality rate, but my LFS recommended them to me for algae
>control.

Otos are sometimes considered because they are very small for
suckermouth algae-eaters. However, I've been told they are among the
most delicate of this group. Also, they need water conditions that
aren't appropriate for goldfish.

>Are apple snail populations as hard to control as other snails?
>I've heard other stories about snails getting out of control and predators
>being added to tanks just to eradicate the booming snail population.

Goldfish are predators on smaller snails. Basically, snails that are too
large to fit down a goldfish gullet are safe. In my tanks, with
"volunteer" snails that came in on plants, snails that will fit in a
goldie's mouth but not down a goldie's gullet survive, but are probably
stressed. One comes loose, or a fish knocks it down, everybody in the
water column gobbles it up, thinks for a second, then spits it back out.
Hilarious to watch but I doubt it's good for the snail...

If you're not worried about black spot disease, a snail parasite than
can affect goldfish (which I haven't seen in the four years or so I've
had goldies in snail-infested waters), snails can be good algae eaters
in the goldfish tank.

For the really large apple snails in a small tank I'd assume they'd need
to be fed more than just algae, and I'd want to ask how much waste they
themselves produce.

I was thinking of the loach more in terms of its being an interesting
figh, active, fun to watch, and reportedly they like to interact with
their keepers. For algae control in a small tank, I'd recommend just
reaching in there and scraping it off!



-----------------------------------------
Only know that there is no spork.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: (tony)
>Date: 3/9/2004 1:38 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Am intrested in learning more about fish and aquariums and (yesterday)
>bought a 16 gallon bow front tank, Aqua clear 'mini' cycleguard filter
>and one gold fish (forgot the specific type of fish, but its about 3
>in. in length.
>

Hmm...you should have come to research before you bought a fish.
You've just now stocked your 16g tank.
Not large enough for more than 1 Goldie, and barley enough for one.


>I have the goldfish in a small bowl I also bought since the lady at
>the petstore said the tank/filter should run for 3-4 days first.
>

Funny...did she also mention to you that that can kill your Goldfish???
Goldies *CANNOT* breathe surface air and shouldn't ever be kept in a bowl. I
bet right now it's at the surface gasping for air as it slowly suffocates and
is poisoned by it's own waste.
Man..you need to go find that lady and smack her with a book about proper fish
care!
Goldies put out a great deal of waste, more than other fish, and need a reallty
good filtration system. Not happening in a bowl.
Also...letting the filter run for 3-4 days is bunk. The lady just doesn't know
what she's talking about and should be called on it. She's already put your
Goldie at risk of killing it, and has given you false info.



>I added tap water and stress coat to the aquarium and installed the
>filter - water was cloudy, but about 24 hours later looks a lot
>clearer.
>
>Am I doing everything right so far?
>
>I dont know if I want to just get 2 or 3 more of the same type of
>goldfish or get tropical fish of some type - i'd like something fairly
>playful and active since my kids will get a kick out of watching them
>play around.

Nope. You can't fit any more Goldies in this tank.
You cannot mix tropical fish with Goldies..they have different requirements and
water conditions.
Just out of curiosity, was this a chain store that sold you a tank and a fish
onthe same day and gave you bogus info?


>What advice can you all give where thats concerned?
>
>I've read (after the fact) that its better for a beginner to get a
>tank thats 20 gallons (its true that smaller ones are more work???),
>but am not ready to go out and get another one now - maybe next year.
>
>Thanks for any help/links you can provide.
>

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "Houseslave"
>Date: 3/9/2004 8:28 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Ask your LFS for some gravel from a tank of floss from their filter. You
>want to introduce bacteria to the tank. ALso, buy some BioSpira or Fritzyme.
>Many of the other bacteria in a bottle don't work. I would use the goldfish
>to help cycle the tank. You will also need a heater if you decide to keep
>tropical fish in that tank. GOldfish like it cooler but most tropicla fish
>like it aorund 75. Give the tank time to cycle. You will also need a test
>kit to measure PH, Nitrites, Ammonia and Nitrates. Start reading too there
>is a lot of info. on the web.

So you're recommending this person house Goldies and tropicals together?
That's just not right.
Also...to recommend somebody get gravel from a pet shop to put into their
tank....= O
Wow. To think of all the diseases that go through pet shop tanks in a years
time and you're telling somebody to take gravel from there and start their tank
up?
That's simply scary.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "Dinky"
>Date: 3/9/2004 10:08 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: . net>
>
>"Rick" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>
>It's too small. Even a comet has a potential size of 12" or more. The
>popularity of goldfish is a crime, to the fish, at least. Millions of them
>are sentenced to death every year due to cramped quarters causing stunted
>growth and eventual death.
>

I totally agree with ya on this.
I've said a million times that min. tank for a fancy, not common, comet, would
be 10g....but I am quickly changing my mind. After seeing so many max sized
fancies in a 10g by them selves.....it's just too small.
Also.....don't the Comet's reach 16" or is that the common?

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: Larry Blanchard
>Date: 3/10/2004 6:35 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article
. net>,
says...
>>
>> It's too small. Even a comet has a potential size of 12" or more. The
>> popularity of goldfish is a crime, to the fish, at least. Millions of them
>> are sentenced to death every year due to cramped quarters causing stunted
>> growth and eventual death.
>
>There's a lot of good advice in this group, but there's also a
>large population of folks that think every fish must have
>optimum conditions. They sure don't get that in the natural
>state :-).
>
>There was a post in one of the aquaria groups the other day that
>said stunting was not true. Goldfish would quit growing in a
>smaller tank at some point, but if moved to a larger tank in the
>future they would resume normal growth - no stunting damage.
>I'd like to hear more from that poster on the subject - like
>some references.
>
>But I do know that I kept two shubunkins in a 10 gallon tank (or
>maybe it was only 5) for close to ten years with no filtration,
>no plants. Just weekly partial water changes. They finally
>died when my little sister dumped a whole container of food in
>the tank at once.
>
>So put your fish in the 16 gallon tank and after it's cycled buy
>him a playmate. If you keep the tank chemistry as close to the
>criteria as you can, don't overfeed, and put in a good filter,
>your fish will probably be healthy and happy for years. They'll
>probably never exceed 4-5 inches, but if it bothers you when
>they stop growing you can always get a bigger tank then.
>
>I can just see the keyboards heating up in response to this :-).

Wow, how sad.
You made those Goldies suffer for that many years.
Now you're telling this person to go ahead, they'll only grow to 4-5 inches
anyway....well that would be because they were stunted! That does internal
orgran damage and premature death.
This is what youadivse people to do?

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "Rick"
>Date: 3/10/2004 8:05 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Sue" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Rick" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >
>> > why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.
>> >
>> > Rick
>> Because goldfish like company & the tank isn't big enough for two!
>> Sue
>>
>
>
>hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite sometime
>without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish but
>they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space is 10
>gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change and
>type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a couple of
>the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.
>
>Rick

Simply because you chose not to follow a fish's needs doesn't make it the right
thing to do.
You keep saying over and over how you kept 6 , 3" goldies in a 25 like you're
proud of it. It's shameful, not something tobe proud of and recommend.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: Geezer From Freezer
>Date: 3/10/2004 10:01 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>
>Rick wrote:
>> hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite sometime
>> without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish but
>> they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space is 10
>> gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change and
>> type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a couple of
>> the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.
>>
>> Rick
>
>define "sometime" - goldfish can live upto 20 years. I suspect 6 in a 25
>would
>be lucky
>to pass the 3 year mark.
>
>Goldfish need space to swim freely

Ya know folks, "Rick" is proud of himself for doing this and no matter how many
of us tell him what he atually did to those fish, he will not believe or maybe
he just doesn't want to believe it.

[Rick]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
> >From: "Rick"
> >Date: 3/10/2004 8:05 AM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Sue" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "Rick" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.
> >> >
> >> > Rick
> >> Because goldfish like company & the tank isn't big enough for two!
> >> Sue
> >>
> >
> >
> >hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite
sometime
> >without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish but
> >they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space is
10
> >gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change and
> >type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a couple
of
> >the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.
> >
> >Rick
>
> Simply because you chose not to follow a fish's needs doesn't make it the
right
> thing to do.
> You keep saying over and over how you kept 6 , 3" goldies in a 25 like
you're
> proud of it. It's shameful, not something tobe proud of and recommend.


what is becoming abundantly clear is that you have no idea what you are
talking about. I don't recall you telling us of your experience in keeping
goldfish however I have kept them as I pointed out and so have others very
successfully however you seem to know better. My fish were healthy, disease
free and grew nicely and you consider that to be shameful. They are still
doing nicely in the Nursing Home in their 33 g tank. The original poster was
told that eventually his tank will be too small if he bought the comet or
other goldfish that grow considerably so he is aware that at some point he
will have to return them and get smaller one's or something else. Get some
practical experience on the matter and then point out to those of us who
have done it and done it well that we did it wrong. Your points were no
doubt taken in by the original poster and although there are those of us who
disagree with your points I had no problem with them. You on the other hand
start telling me and others that what we are doing is shameful. Get off your
soap box, post your advice to anyone asking and accept the fact that others
may not agree with your "expertise"

Rick

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "Rick"
>Date: 3/18/2004 12:40 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>what is becoming abundantly clear is that you have no idea what you are
>talking about.

ROFLMAO!!!
Oh, I had a good belly laugh at that one. Thanks.
Dude..get a book and read.

[Rick]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> (snipped)
>
> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
> >From: "Rick"
> >Date: 3/18/2004 12:40 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
>
> >what is becoming abundantly clear is that you have no idea what you are
> >talking about.
>
> ROFLMAO!!!
> Oh, I had a good belly laugh at that one. Thanks.
> Dude..get a book and read.


Been there and done that. Perhaps you should pick up a copy of Baron's
Goldfish book, or perhaps TFH Publications book by Paul Paradise "Fany
Goldfish" or maybe Terta Press book by Dr. Chris Andrews all of which will
dispel the myth or bunk about one goldfish , regardless of what type of
goldfish, requiring 10 gallons per fish. You read something on the net or in
some book published years and years ago and never change your perspective on
keeping fish. Modern filtration and aquarium management techniques have
increased the stocking density to levels not previously seen. Check out some
breeders tanks of Mbuna's and many others. Your welcome to attack my posts
and put your own viewpoints forward but there is no need to make it a
personal matter.

Rick

[PurityFailed]

>I'm going to ignore him (or put him in the bozo bin)
>and suggest others do the same.

>From: Larry Blanchard

Sure she can be venomous at times, but she's kinda grown on me. :D I really do
agree with the negative thoughts regarding keeping goldies in such small
quarters, but I also agree that it could have been said in a more scientific or
at least polite manner. Some of us are like that though... we can't keep our
quirkiness to ourselves ;)

Of course, advances in equipment and such have made it possible to keep a
larger stock than before, but aside from the hot growth issue we're having...
it could be a quality of life thing. And I'm assuming much more dire
consequences if there's an equipment failure, speaking from the inconvenience
standpoint.

So sure! I imigaine it's entirely possible to have a marvelously functioning
tank from a purely test tube view, but on an emotional (or common sense
level.... I'm not sure which yet regarding my limited hands-on experience) it
just makes me shiver thinking about the little space some fish are getting.

Please nobody gnaw on me. I don't taste very good. :)

More happy trails to you all,

Jessica
(Oh please let the tank cycle...)

[Rick]

"PurityFailed" > wrote in message
...
> >I'm going to ignore him (or put him in the bozo bin)
> >and suggest others do the same.
>
> >From: Larry Blanchard
>
> Sure she can be venomous at times, but she's kinda grown on me. :D I
really do
> agree with the negative thoughts regarding keeping goldies in such small
> quarters, but I also agree that it could have been said in a more
scientific or
> at least polite manner. Some of us are like that though... we can't keep
our
> quirkiness to ourselves ;)
>
> Of course, advances in equipment and such have made it possible to keep a
> larger stock than before, but aside from the hot growth issue we're
having...
> it could be a quality of life thing. And I'm assuming much more dire
> consequences if there's an equipment failure, speaking from the
inconvenience
> standpoint.
>
> So sure! I imigaine it's entirely possible to have a marvelously
functioning
> tank from a purely test tube view, but on an emotional (or common sense
> level.... I'm not sure which yet regarding my limited hands-on experience)
it
> just makes me shiver thinking about the little space some fish are
getting.
>
> Please nobody gnaw on me. I don't taste very good. :)
>
> More happy trails to you all,
>
> Jessica
> (Oh please let the tank cycle...)


good points Jessica and well said. I think that TYNK7 makes valid points
also as I have read other posts that he/she has made however in these types
of groups people have to accept that others do things differently and
successfully and whether you agree with it or not it is a fact. Ultimately
we should attempt to provide view points for someone asking a question and
whether they differ or not is immaterial to the fact that it is up to the
person asking the question to accept or reject the advice or go and do more
research and simply use our comments as a guideline. I have said it over and
over again that what works for me may not necessarily work for others, it is
always YMMV. For every book you can find or every web site you can refer to
that says a little goldfish needs 10 gallons of water I can cite others that
will claim otherwise. Soooo YMMV.

Rick

[PurityFailed]

>Soooo YMMV.
>
>Rick

I'm not certain if you were one of the posters agreeing with the smaller tanks
but if so I'd really like to hear your thoughts on it. Any tank opinions are
fascinating to me even if I don't agree with them. It all just adds to the ol'
knowledge bank.

If you'd be so kind feel free to email me (just remove the 'ick spam') to
continue this discussion flame-free or I can just look up your posts on the
boards. :)

I look forward to some more wrinkles on the brain!

Jessica
(Oh please let the tank cycle...)

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: Larry Blanchard
>Date: 3/18/2004 11:29 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
says...
>> what is becoming abundantly clear is that you have no idea what you are
>> talking about. I don't recall you telling us of your experience in keeping
>> goldfish however I have kept them as I pointed out and so have others very
>> successfully however you seem to know better.
>>
>I think he's a lost cause, Rick. From the volume of his posts
>and the tone of his posts, I'm beginning to think he's just
>trolling. I'm going to ignore him (or put him in the bozo bin)
>and suggest others do the same.

Him???
Why would you assume "tynk" would be a guy??

[NetMax]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
> > what is becoming abundantly clear is that you have no idea what you
are
> > talking about. I don't recall you telling us of your experience in
keeping
> > goldfish however I have kept them as I pointed out and so have others
very
> > successfully however you seem to know better.
> >
> I think he's a lost cause, Rick. From the volume of his posts
> and the tone of his posts, I'm beginning to think he's just
> trolling. I'm going to ignore him (or put him in the bozo bin)
> and suggest others do the same.

TYNK7 is not a troll, and despite her occasional lack of wordsmithing
;~), her posts have helped many people get on the right track.
Personally I have a lot more tolerance for methods used by experienced
fish-keepers, which adds up to accepting a greater risk for their fish.
TYNK7 doesn't have the same risk acceptance and will counsel anyone who
needs to ask, to follow a more conservative and safer approach to tank
loading. She (nor I) know the details of your filtration system or
maintenance routine, so you may be the better judge, or you might be
misjudging something, but after hearing the comments, it's yours to
decide on how to proceed.

I can tell you that on a commercial scale, the tank-loading levels
achievable with goldfish are not repeatable here, but my commercial tanks
get 4 water changes per day, 7 days a week (automated) and gravel-vac'ed
at least once a week. This makes my goldfish-loading experience almost
irrelevant to the newsgroup, but once their swimming area requirements
have been satisfied, and they are comfortable (ie: species tank of
similar size and shape), that it then becomes a function of water
quality.

This is where (I think) that an experienced hobbyist can manage a tank
with no problem, of a size and quantity of fish which a new hobbyist
would make a disaster out of, and this is where I think that TYNK7 is
coming from.

NetMax

[TYNK 7]

(Snipped)

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "Rick"
>Date: 3/18/2004 10:48 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>

>You read something on the net or in
>some book published years and years ago and never change your perspective on
>keeping fish

You sure do make a lot of assumptions about me, don't you.
My experience with Goldies is that I made all the mistakes. I kept them in a
bowl (when a kid) and it killed them.'
I kept them in a 5g tank (2 of them)....didn't grow properly (stunted) and died
after a couple years.
My Uncle had a Comet in a 10g by it's self for 5 yrs. It only grew to about 5
inches.
It was stunted and didn't live nearly as long as it should have (20 yrs), yet
he did weekly water changes and fed it well.
My sister in law had a Goldie in a 2g tank with UGF. It was just a wee thing,
maybe 2 1/2-3" long, and lived almost a year..and never grew.
Friends of mine keep their Goldies in 29g's, 55g's, 75g's, all grow to max
size, and are still thriving (7-10 yrs).
So, from what I've read, experienced, and seen with my own eyes...if you give a
Goldie the proper care it needs and deserves, it will grow properly, and live
as long as it should.
You can go on till doomsday telling me it's fine to house Goldies in a small
tank, not let them grow properly, etc etc.....but from what I've seen....no way
will I ever believe it.

[Rick]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> (Snipped)
>
> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
> >From: "Rick"
> >Date: 3/18/2004 10:48 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
>
> >You read something on the net or in
> >some book published years and years ago and never change your perspective
on
> >keeping fish
>
> You sure do make a lot of assumptions about me, don't you.
> My experience with Goldies is that I made all the mistakes. I kept them in
a
> bowl (when a kid) and it killed them.'
> I kept them in a 5g tank (2 of them)....didn't grow properly (stunted) and
died
> after a couple years.
> My Uncle had a Comet in a 10g by it's self for 5 yrs. It only grew to
about 5
> inches.
> It was stunted and didn't live nearly as long as it should have (20 yrs),
yet
> he did weekly water changes and fed it well.
> My sister in law had a Goldie in a 2g tank with UGF. It was just a wee
thing,
> maybe 2 1/2-3" long, and lived almost a year..and never grew.
> Friends of mine keep their Goldies in 29g's, 55g's, 75g's, all grow to
max
> size, and are still thriving (7-10 yrs).
> So, from what I've read, experienced, and seen with my own eyes...if you
give a
> Goldie the proper care it needs and deserves, it will grow properly, and
live
> as long as it should.
> You can go on till doomsday telling me it's fine to house Goldies in a
small
> tank, not let them grow properly, etc etc.....but from what I've
seen....no way
> will I ever believe it.
>


You simply do not read post for content. I have never said that it was fine
to keep Goldies in a 5 10 or 16 gallon tank. I do not advocate keeping large
fish in small bowls. My point was and still is if the original poster has 1,
2 or 3 SMALL goldfish they will be fine in his 16 g tank UNTIL they outgrow
it. My 6 goldfish did not outgrow my 25 g tank but at the point they were at
3" I had to get rid of them. So let me break it down for you very slowly and
carefully. If the original poster has one small goldfish say about an inch
or so I believe we may both agree that it will be fine and will grow
properly until it reaches a size of, well who knows I'll be the first to
admit that I'm not an expert in the growth patterns of goldfish however you
may be, buts lets say 4". Then at some point as I said he should already
have made arrangements with his LFS to return the fish and exchange it for a
smaller or different fish. The fact that I keep 6 in a 25 does not mean I
advocate anyone else doing it, that is their choice. It worked for me until
they got too big for that tank. By the way I read one other post you made
about providing information and just for your info. I personally do not
think your a "bitch". We may differ on our points and I don't have a problem
with that. You simply IMHO get carried away with trying to ensure that
everyone does everything your way and not allow a different perspective to
an argument. You read something I initially posted that I would have no
problem keeping a goldfish or two in a 16 g tank and without reading the
rest of the post you jumped to your own conclusions. I think it is time to
move on to better things , don't you?

Rick

[Rick]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > > what is becoming abundantly clear is that you have no idea what you
> are
> > > talking about. I don't recall you telling us of your experience in
> keeping
> > > goldfish however I have kept them as I pointed out and so have others
> very
> > > successfully however you seem to know better.
> > >
> > I think he's a lost cause, Rick. From the volume of his posts
> > and the tone of his posts, I'm beginning to think he's just
> > trolling. I'm going to ignore him (or put him in the bozo bin)
> > and suggest others do the same.
>
> TYNK7 is not a troll, and despite her occasional lack of wordsmithing
> ;~), her posts have helped many people get on the right track.
> Personally I have a lot more tolerance for methods used by experienced
> fish-keepers, which adds up to accepting a greater risk for their fish.
> TYNK7 doesn't have the same risk acceptance and will counsel anyone who
> needs to ask, to follow a more conservative and safer approach to tank
> loading. She (nor I) know the details of your filtration system or
> maintenance routine, so you may be the better judge, or you might be
> misjudging something, but after hearing the comments, it's yours to
> decide on how to proceed.
>
> I can tell you that on a commercial scale, the tank-loading levels
> achievable with goldfish are not repeatable here, but my commercial tanks
> get 4 water changes per day, 7 days a week (automated) and gravel-vac'ed
> at least once a week. This makes my goldfish-loading experience almost
> irrelevant to the newsgroup, but once their swimming area requirements
> have been satisfied, and they are comfortable (ie: species tank of
> similar size and shape), that it then becomes a function of water
> quality.
>
> This is where (I think) that an experienced hobbyist can manage a tank
> with no problem, of a size and quantity of fish which a new hobbyist
> would make a disaster out of, and this is where I think that TYNK7 is
> coming from.
>
> NetMax
>
>

good points as usual NetMax and although I have no desire to reread all that
was posted back and forth I believe the discussion got off track from the
original poster keeping one small goldfish in a 16 to me keeping 6 in a 25.
I try to include in my information that I provide that if I did it
successfully there was probably a reason to it and that being double
filtration in that 25 and weekly gravel vac and larger water changes. I have
read other posts made my TYNK7 and agree that she is a knowledgeable fish
keeper. She has determined from my posts that I advocate keeping large fish
in small tanks or bowls and I do not do that however I do keep small fish
that eventually grow large in small tanks until such time as they need
larger quarters. I do it well and so can others. As your well aware and I
think I may have got this from you when I first got involved in the various
discussion groups , it is always YMMV

Rick

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "Rick"
>Date: 3/20/2004 9:19 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>> (Snipped)
>>
>> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>> >From: "Rick"
>> >Date: 3/18/2004 10:48 PM Central Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>>
>> >You read something on the net or in
>> >some book published years and years ago and never change your perspective
>on
>> >keeping fish
>>
>> You sure do make a lot of assumptions about me, don't you.
>> My experience with Goldies is that I made all the mistakes. I kept them in
>a
>> bowl (when a kid) and it killed them.'
>> I kept them in a 5g tank (2 of them)....didn't grow properly (stunted) and
>died
>> after a couple years.
>> My Uncle had a Comet in a 10g by it's self for 5 yrs. It only grew to
>about 5
>> inches.
>> It was stunted and didn't live nearly as long as it should have (20 yrs),
>yet
>> he did weekly water changes and fed it well.
>> My sister in law had a Goldie in a 2g tank with UGF. It was just a wee
>thing,
>> maybe 2 1/2-3" long, and lived almost a year..and never grew.
>> Friends of mine keep their Goldies in 29g's, 55g's, 75g's, all grow to
>max
>> size, and are still thriving (7-10 yrs).
>> So, from what I've read, experienced, and seen with my own eyes...if you
>give a
>> Goldie the proper care it needs and deserves, it will grow properly, and
>live
>> as long as it should.
>> You can go on till doomsday telling me it's fine to house Goldies in a
>small
>> tank, not let them grow properly, etc etc.....but from what I've
>seen....no way
>> will I ever believe it.
>>
>
>
>You simply do not read post for content. I have never said that it was fine
>to keep Goldies in a 5 10 or 16 gallon tank. I do not advocate keeping large
>fish in small bowls. My point was and still is if the original poster has 1,
>2 or 3 SMALL goldfish they will be fine in his 16 g tank UNTIL they outgrow
>it. My 6 goldfish did not outgrow my 25 g tank but at the point they were at
>3" I had to get rid of them. So let me break it down for you very slowly and
>carefully. If the original poster has one small goldfish say about an inch
>or so I believe we may both agree that it will be fine and will grow
>properly until it reaches a size of, well who knows I'll be the first to
>admit that I'm not an expert in the growth patterns of goldfish however you
>may be, buts lets say 4". Then at some point as I said he should already
>have made arrangements with his LFS to return the fish and exchange it for a
>smaller or different fish. The fact that I keep 6 in a 25 does not mean I
>advocate anyone else doing it, that is their choice. It worked for me until
>they got too big for that tank. By the way I read one other post you made
>about providing information and just for your info. I personally do not
>think your a "bitch". We may differ on our points and I don't have a problem
>with that. You simply IMHO get carried away with trying to ensure that
>everyone does everything your way and not allow a different perspective to
>an argument. You read something I initially posted that I would have no
>problem keeping a goldfish or two in a 16 g tank and without reading the
>rest of the post you jumped to your own conclusions. I think it is time to
>move on to better things , don't you?
>
>Rick
>

Just to clearify....
I didn't mean that *you* kept or advocated keeping Goldies in a 5 or 10g
tank..I said I had done the 5g mistake myself, and my Uncle (we're very close
in age so more like a brother), in the 10g mistake.
You had asked what personal experience I've had with Goldies and I was simply
listing it. That's all. = )
On the matter of housing small Goldies for a short time (till they grow to so
many inches..depending on the tank size), and trade them in for smaller
ones..sure that would work out fine. However, a lot of folks don't want to do
that. Especially with a fish that becomes tame to you. I couldn't ever even
comprehend doing that to one of my Angelfish that I've raised for a pet (not to
sell, as there's a different mind set with those). They get to big for the tank
and trade them in..I couldn't do it. Angelfish become tame to their owners (as
well as Bettas and Goldies and many other types of fish), it's too much like
giving a beloved pet away for adoption.
Often people are getting these Goldfish for their kids to keep in smaller
tanks...then they grow to huge for it and the parent is supposed to explaint o
a child who has become quite attached to the Goldie...that we have to trade it
in now, it grew to big.
The kid's going to be heart broken.
To me, telling people the requirements for fish in their adult stage is where I
start. No back tracking later. It has nothing to do with..........
">You simply IMHO get carried away with trying to ensure that
>everyone does everything your way and not allow a different perspective to
>an argument."
It's not *my* way in any way at all.
I don't control what size certain breeds of fish grow to, but I can sure help
educate somebody so that they'll be ready for what is coming.
Then it's their choice....do I really want a fish I will either have to return
for credit, give away, buy a much larger tank for, etc.
Also, my b*tch comment was meant in general to explain to all who read my posts
why I'm so blunt, and that it often comes out in type that I'm just a b*tch,
when I'm really not. I just have an enormous, almost too much to bare,
compassion for living creatures. I'm no wacko though, don't get me wrong.
Well...ok, maybe a little bit. I do run out in the back yard when another wild
Squirrel chases around my handicapped 3 legged Squirrel that I feed daily.
Oh...and I can call to the Squirrels and they come running, so I guess folks
may think I'm a little wacko. = )~

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 3/19/2004 11:11 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> says...
>> > what is becoming abundantly clear is that you have no idea what you
>are
>> > talking about. I don't recall you telling us of your experience in
>keeping
>> > goldfish however I have kept them as I pointed out and so have others
>very
>> > successfully however you seem to know better.
>> >
>> I think he's a lost cause, Rick. From the volume of his posts
>> and the tone of his posts, I'm beginning to think he's just
>> trolling. I'm going to ignore him (or put him in the bozo bin)
>> and suggest others do the same.
>
>TYNK7 is not a troll, and despite her occasional lack of wordsmithing
>;~), her posts have helped many people get on the right track.
>Personally I have a lot more tolerance for methods used by experienced
>fish-keepers, which adds up to accepting a greater risk for their fish.
>TYNK7 doesn't have the same risk acceptance and will counsel anyone who
>needs to ask, to follow a more conservative and safer approach to tank
>loading. She (nor I) know the details of your filtration system or
>maintenance routine, so you may be the better judge, or you might be
>misjudging something, but after hearing the comments, it's yours to
>decide on how to proceed.
>
>I can tell you that on a commercial scale, the tank-loading levels
>achievable with goldfish are not repeatable here, but my commercial tanks
>get 4 water changes per day, 7 days a week (automated) and gravel-vac'ed
>at least once a week. This makes my goldfish-loading experience almost
>irrelevant to the newsgroup, but once their swimming area requirements
>have been satisfied, and they are comfortable (ie: species tank of
>similar size and shape), that it then becomes a function of water
>quality.
>
>This is where (I think) that an experienced hobbyist can manage a tank
>with no problem, of a size and quantity of fish which a new hobbyist
>would make a disaster out of, and this is where I think that TYNK7 is
>coming from.
>
>NetMax
>

Yes, NetMax. It is.
= )

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "Rick"
>Date: 3/20/2004 9:28 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >,
>> > says...
>> > > what is becoming abundantly clear is that you have no idea what you
>> are
>> > > talking about. I don't recall you telling us of your experience in
>> keeping
>> > > goldfish however I have kept them as I pointed out and so have others
>> very
>> > > successfully however you seem to know better.
>> > >
>> > I think he's a lost cause, Rick. From the volume of his posts
>> > and the tone of his posts, I'm beginning to think he's just
>> > trolling. I'm going to ignore him (or put him in the bozo bin)
>> > and suggest others do the same.
>>
>> TYNK7 is not a troll, and despite her occasional lack of wordsmithing
>> ;~), her posts have helped many people get on the right track.
>> Personally I have a lot more tolerance for methods used by experienced
>> fish-keepers, which adds up to accepting a greater risk for their fish.
>> TYNK7 doesn't have the same risk acceptance and will counsel anyone who
>> needs to ask, to follow a more conservative and safer approach to tank
>> loading. She (nor I) know the details of your filtration system or
>> maintenance routine, so you may be the better judge, or you might be
>> misjudging something, but after hearing the comments, it's yours to
>> decide on how to proceed.
>>
>> I can tell you that on a commercial scale, the tank-loading levels
>> achievable with goldfish are not repeatable here, but my commercial tanks
>> get 4 water changes per day, 7 days a week (automated) and gravel-vac'ed
>> at least once a week. This makes my goldfish-loading experience almost
>> irrelevant to the newsgroup, but once their swimming area requirements
>> have been satisfied, and they are comfortable (ie: species tank of
>> similar size and shape), that it then becomes a function of water
>> quality.
>>
>> This is where (I think) that an experienced hobbyist can manage a tank
>> with no problem, of a size and quantity of fish which a new hobbyist
>> would make a disaster out of, and this is where I think that TYNK7 is
>> coming from.
>>
>> NetMax
>>
>>
>
>good points as usual NetMax and although I have no desire to reread all that
>was posted back and forth I believe the discussion got off track from the
>original poster keeping one small goldfish in a 16 to me keeping 6 in a 25.
>I try to include in my information that I provide that if I did it
>successfully there was probably a reason to it and that being double
>filtration in that 25 and weekly gravel vac and larger water changes. I have
>read other posts made my TYNK7 and agree that she is a knowledgeable fish
>keeper. She has determined from my posts that I advocate keeping large fish
>in small tanks or bowls and I do not do that however I do keep small fish
>that eventually grow large in small tanks until such time as they need
>larger quarters. I do it well and so can others. As your well aware and I
>think I may have got this from you when I first got involved in the various
>discussion groups , it is always YMMV

No no no......*I* was the one who kept a Goldie in a bowl and then small tank
when I was a kid, silly not you. = )

[NetMax]

"Rick" > wrote...
> "TYNK 7" > wrote...
> >
> > >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
> > >From: "Rick"
> > >Date: 3/18/2004 10:48 PM Central Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >

<snip> did not read post for content.
<snip> SMALL goldfish ... fine .... UNTIL they outgrow it
<snip> I believe we may both agree
<snip> I think it is time to move on to better things , don't you?

Woo hoo!! Isn't it great when we all agree :o) On to better things
......

NetMax

> Rick

[Rick]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>> Just to clearify....
> I didn't mean that *you* kept or advocated keeping Goldies in a 5 or 10g
> tank..I said I had done the 5g mistake myself, and my Uncle (we're very
close
> in age so more like a brother), in the 10g mistake.
> You had asked what personal experience I've had with Goldies and I was
simply
> listing it. That's all. = )
> On the matter of housing small Goldies for a short time (till they grow to
so
> many inches..depending on the tank size), and trade them in for smaller
> ones..sure that would work out fine. However, a lot of folks don't want to
do
> that. Especially with a fish that becomes tame to you. I couldn't ever
even
> comprehend doing that to one of my Angelfish that I've raised for a pet
(not to
> sell, as there's a different mind set with those). They get to big for the
tank
> and trade them in..I couldn't do it. Angelfish become tame to their owners
(as
> well as Bettas and Goldies and many other types of fish), it's too much
like
> giving a beloved pet away for adoption.
> Often people are getting these Goldfish for their kids to keep in smaller
> tanks...then they grow to huge for it and the parent is supposed to
explaint o
> a child who has become quite attached to the Goldie...that we have to
trade it
> in now, it grew to big.
> The kid's going to be heart broken.
> To me, telling people the requirements for fish in their adult stage is
where I
> start. No back tracking later. It has nothing to do with..........
> ">You simply IMHO get carried away with trying to ensure that
> >everyone does everything your way and not allow a different perspective
to
> >an argument."
> It's not *my* way in any way at all.
> I don't control what size certain breeds of fish grow to, but I can sure
help
> educate somebody so that they'll be ready for what is coming.
> Then it's their choice....do I really want a fish I will either have to
return
> for credit, give away, buy a much larger tank for, etc.
> Also, my b*tch comment was meant in general to explain to all who read my
posts
> why I'm so blunt, and that it often comes out in type that I'm just a
b*tch,
> when I'm really not. I just have an enormous, almost too much to bare,
> compassion for living creatures. I'm no wacko though, don't get me wrong.
> Well...ok, maybe a little bit. I do run out in the back yard when another
wild
> Squirrel chases around my handicapped 3 legged Squirrel that I feed daily.
> Oh...and I can call to the Squirrels and they come running, so I guess
folks
> may think I'm a little wacko. = )~
>
>

I do see your points here, hey we are agreeing :-).. I really do not become
too attached to my fish as I tend to buy juveniles, breed them, get my BAP
points and sell off the adults however there are exceptions and I do have a
few fish that I would not give up. My wife on the other hand talks to them,
has names for some of them like Robert the robertsoni, haha. I guess because
of my style of fish keeping I find that by most standards likely most of my
tanks are overstocked if they were at adult size. Angels, grrrr, mine have
laid eggs 4 times the last bunch earlier this week and it seems a few that
turn white (not fugus but not fertilized) they start to pick off and end up
eating them all. Frustrating .

Rick

[NetMax]

"Rick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> ...
<snip>
Angels, grrrr, mine have
> laid eggs 4 times the last bunch earlier this week and it seems a few
that
> turn white (not fugus but not fertilized) they start to pick off and
end up
> eating them all. Frustrating .
>
> Rick

I have a pair in a planted 135g tank alone (talk about ideal conditions).
Twice they have spawned, brought the fry right to free-swimming and after
a few days, the fry disappeared! The first time it happened, I'd taken
the parents out as I was afraid they would get spooked by customers and
eat the fry, so the babies were free-swimming for another 2-3 days alone
when they disappeared. The 2nd time, I left the parents to see if it
would make any difference. It didn't.

I'm left with the conclusion that this pair is passing a genetic defect
which kills the fry sometime when their internal organs are developing.
They were all free-swimming and eating frozen baby brine shrimp for 2-3
days before vanishing.

very perplexing
NetMax

[Rick]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> > ...
> <snip>
> Angels, grrrr, mine have
> > laid eggs 4 times the last bunch earlier this week and it seems a few
> that
> > turn white (not fugus but not fertilized) they start to pick off and
> end up
> > eating them all. Frustrating .
> >
> > Rick
>
> I have a pair in a planted 135g tank alone (talk about ideal conditions).
> Twice they have spawned, brought the fry right to free-swimming and after
> a few days, the fry disappeared! The first time it happened, I'd taken
> the parents out as I was afraid they would get spooked by customers and
> eat the fry, so the babies were free-swimming for another 2-3 days alone
> when they disappeared. The 2nd time, I left the parents to see if it
> would make any difference. It didn't.
>
> I'm left with the conclusion that this pair is passing a genetic defect
> which kills the fry sometime when their internal organs are developing.
> They were all free-swimming and eating frozen baby brine shrimp for 2-3
> days before vanishing.
>
> very perplexing
> NetMax
>
>

I know the feeling. Mine are a Black Lace pair along in a 55g Hex. I got
them at our local Aquarium Club auction. Several others bought from the same
batch. One other member has had theirs spawn twice and both times the
parents have raised the fry with little loss. The last batch they have now
just removed the fry as they were starting to pick at the parents., mine
just want to try my patience I guess.

Rick

[NetMax]

"Rick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Rick" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > <snip>
> > Angels, grrrr, mine have
> > > laid eggs 4 times the last bunch earlier this week and it seems a
few
> > that
> > > turn white (not fugus but not fertilized) they start to pick off
and
> > end up
> > > eating them all. Frustrating .
> > >
> > > Rick
> >
> > I have a pair in a planted 135g tank alone (talk about ideal
conditions).
> > Twice they have spawned, brought the fry right to free-swimming and
after
> > a few days, the fry disappeared! The first time it happened, I'd
taken
> > the parents out as I was afraid they would get spooked by customers
and
> > eat the fry, so the babies were free-swimming for another 2-3 days
alone
> > when they disappeared. The 2nd time, I left the parents to see if it
> > would make any difference. It didn't.
> >
> > I'm left with the conclusion that this pair is passing a genetic
defect
> > which kills the fry sometime when their internal organs are
developing.
> > They were all free-swimming and eating frozen baby brine shrimp for
2-3
> > days before vanishing.
> >
> > very perplexing
> > NetMax
> >
> >
>
> I know the feeling. Mine are a Black Lace pair along in a 55g Hex. I
got
> them at our local Aquarium Club auction. Several others bought from the
same
> batch. One other member has had theirs spawn twice and both times the
> parents have raised the fry with little loss. The last batch they have
now
> just removed the fry as they were starting to pick at the parents.,
mine
> just want to try my patience I guess.
>
> Rick

Positioning the eggs under water flow, or above an airstone so that there
is moving water across them might help with your situation. This assumes
that fungus is your root problem and not infertility (which there is
always some of). Have you observed their ovipositors? Occasionally a
couple of females will get together to do the deed. Keep in mind that
they might not ever get it right, so then just separate the parents and
use an airstone and meth..blue in the water, as soon as the eggs are
laid. I wish the solution to my problem was clearer. I'm just going to
rotate breeders, perhaps I'll try some Altums or Discus in there next :o)

so many fish, too few tanks, so little time
NetMax

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "Rick"
>Date: 3/20/2004 12:02 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>>> Just to clearify....
>> I didn't mean that *you* kept or advocated keeping Goldies in a 5 or 10g
>> tank..I said I had done the 5g mistake myself, and my Uncle (we're very
>close
>> in age so more like a brother), in the 10g mistake.
>> You had asked what personal experience I've had with Goldies and I was
>simply
>> listing it. That's all. = )
>> On the matter of housing small Goldies for a short time (till they grow to
>so
>> many inches..depending on the tank size), and trade them in for smaller
>> ones..sure that would work out fine. However, a lot of folks don't want to
>do
>> that. Especially with a fish that becomes tame to you. I couldn't ever
>even
>> comprehend doing that to one of my Angelfish that I've raised for a pet
>(not to
>> sell, as there's a different mind set with those). They get to big for the
>tank
>> and trade them in..I couldn't do it. Angelfish become tame to their owners
>(as
>> well as Bettas and Goldies and many other types of fish), it's too much
>like
>> giving a beloved pet away for adoption.
>> Often people are getting these Goldfish for their kids to keep in smaller
>> tanks...then they grow to huge for it and the parent is supposed to
>explaint o
>> a child who has become quite attached to the Goldie...that we have to
>trade it
>> in now, it grew to big.
>> The kid's going to be heart broken.
>> To me, telling people the requirements for fish in their adult stage is
>where I
>> start. No back tracking later. It has nothing to do with..........
>> ">You simply IMHO get carried away with trying to ensure that
>> >everyone does everything your way and not allow a different perspective
>to
>> >an argument."
>> It's not *my* way in any way at all.
>> I don't control what size certain breeds of fish grow to, but I can sure
>help
>> educate somebody so that they'll be ready for what is coming.
>> Then it's their choice....do I really want a fish I will either have to
>return
>> for credit, give away, buy a much larger tank for, etc.
>> Also, my b*tch comment was meant in general to explain to all who read my
>posts
>> why I'm so blunt, and that it often comes out in type that I'm just a
>b*tch,
>> when I'm really not. I just have an enormous, almost too much to bare,
>> compassion for living creatures. I'm no wacko though, don't get me wrong.
>> Well...ok, maybe a little bit. I do run out in the back yard when another
>wild
>> Squirrel chases around my handicapped 3 legged Squirrel that I feed daily.
>> Oh...and I can call to the Squirrels and they come running, so I guess
>folks
>> may think I'm a little wacko. = )~
>>
>>
>
>I do see your points here, hey we are agreeing :-).. I really do not become
>too attached to my fish as I tend to buy juveniles, breed them, get my BAP
>points and sell off the adults however there are exceptions and I do have a
>few fish that I would not give up. My wife on the other hand talks to them,
>has names for some of them like Robert the robertsoni, haha. I guess because
>of my style of fish keeping I find that by most standards likely most of my
>tanks are overstocked if they were at adult size. Angels, grrrr, mine have
>laid eggs 4 times the last bunch earlier this week and it seems a few that
>turn white (not fugus but not fertilized) they start to pick off and end up
>eating them all. Frustrating .
>
>Rick

Ah...why not remove the either the parents or the eggs, and raise them
yourself.
The unfertilized eggs can be easily picked right off with a toothpick.
I have egg eating parents before, and they drove me bonkers. Double blacks.
Wonderful stock. Egg eaters galore.
They were middle of the night (well would be considered morning really),
spawners so it was hard to catch them before they ate them.
I even tried setting my alarm several times a night to try and catch them.
They were SO obvious that day when they were going to spawn, so I'd set my
alarm and try to catch them. But nope. Little buggers. I never did catch a
spawn from them. Those were one of the pairs that went down when Piscene TB
went through my house.
That, was so hard on me. I had several breeding pairs that died from it, and
some I had to euthanize myself. Actually, it was the first time I had to
euthanize and it about killed me.
I couldn't bring myself to own ANY fish that was aware of their surroundings
and became tame to their keeper for many years.
That all changed the day I saw this one silver (standard) Angel. I was looking
at some goofy live bearers and the shops Angel tank was right behind the tank I
was looking in. This female Angel was going crazy for me. There was no way that
fish was going to stay in the shop another day, or at least she was giving it
her best try.
Well....it worked. = )
She came home and turned out to be one of the best breeders, and best parents
I've had (so far).
I could do anything in their tank when they had eggs or fry. She never minded
my hands one bit. Her mate, on the other hand had quite the fit. I would have
to remove him to anything in their tank....unless I wanted to get bit. They can
pinch good when they want to. = /
It was a very sad day for me when she died of old age.
That one fish made me realize that no matter what obstacles I face in this
hobby.....I have to go on. I'm just not happy without Angelfish (and bettas
too!).
Since her death, I have had the Angelfish Virus (aka Discus plague) hit my
tanks twice (!!), but yet.....I face it, deal with it and start over.
I am actually just now restocked after that second round with the Angel virus.
I've got some lovely veils. I know I've got a male and female silver veil
pair...but the male also has his eye on a female Koi.
I sure he changes his mind and stays with his...well, my choice of mates for
him.
I hadn't planned on spawning them, as I'm doing Bettas now, but what an odd
pair that would make... a Silver and a Koi???
Yesterday and today he's been mainly with the Silver female.....that would be
just fine. = ) They don't always agree, but that's what I get for housing them
all in one tank.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: OT Angelfish was Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 3/20/2004 2:31 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Rick" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "TYNK 7" > wrote in message
>> ...
><snip>
>Angels, grrrr, mine have
>> laid eggs 4 times the last bunch earlier this week and it seems a few
>that
>> turn white (not fugus but not fertilized) they start to pick off and
>end up
>> eating them all. Frustrating .
>>
>> Rick
>
>I have a pair in a planted 135g tank alone (talk about ideal conditions).
>Twice they have spawned, brought the fry right to free-swimming and after
>a few days, the fry disappeared! The first time it happened, I'd taken
>the parents out as I was afraid they would get spooked by customers and
>eat the fry, so the babies were free-swimming for another 2-3 days alone
>when they disappeared. The 2nd time, I left the parents to see if it
>would make any difference. It didn't.
>
>I'm left with the conclusion that this pair is passing a genetic defect
>which kills the fry sometime when their internal organs are developing.
>They were all free-swimming and eating frozen baby brine shrimp for 2-3
>days before vanishing.
>
>very perplexing
>NetMax
>

Netmax....were there any "clean up fish" in the tank at this point?
Cories, snails, Pleco, etc?
If so...at night the fry bed down in the gravel and if any of those above fish
are in there they'll come acorss the whole batch and eat them up during the
night.
Just something to ponder.

[NetMax]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: OT Angelfish was Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
> >From: "NetMax"
> >Date: 3/20/2004 2:31 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Rick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> ><snip>
> >Angels, grrrr, mine have
> >> laid eggs 4 times the last bunch earlier this week and it seems a
few
> >that
> >> turn white (not fugus but not fertilized) they start to pick off and
> >end up
> >> eating them all. Frustrating .
> >>
> >> Rick
> >
> >I have a pair in a planted 135g tank alone (talk about ideal
conditions).
> >Twice they have spawned, brought the fry right to free-swimming and
after
> >a few days, the fry disappeared! The first time it happened, I'd
taken
> >the parents out as I was afraid they would get spooked by customers
and
> >eat the fry, so the babies were free-swimming for another 2-3 days
alone
> >when they disappeared. The 2nd time, I left the parents to see if it
> >would make any difference. It didn't.
> >
> >I'm left with the conclusion that this pair is passing a genetic
defect
> >which kills the fry sometime when their internal organs are
developing.
> >They were all free-swimming and eating frozen baby brine shrimp for
2-3
> >days before vanishing.
> >
> >very perplexing
> >NetMax
> >
>
> Netmax....were there any "clean up fish" in the tank at this point?
> Cories, snails, Pleco, etc?
> If so...at night the fry bed down in the gravel and if any of those
above fish
> are in there they'll come acorss the whole batch and eat them up during
the
> night.
> Just something to ponder.

I had 7 Otos in there, but when the Angels started flicking the leaves to
prepare the site, I removed them (try catching 7 Otos in a planted 135g,
it took traps). I wasn't sure if the Otos could interfere, but I didn't
want any variables I couldn't control. The only thing alive in there
should be some Malaysian Trumpet snails. I might have picked up some
parasitic hitchhikers in the wild plants, but then I wouldn't lose all
the fry in a span of 1 day. Thanks for the suggestions though.

NetMax

[NetMax]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
> >From: "Rick"
> >Date: 3/20/2004 12:02 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
<snip>
> That all changed the day I saw this one silver (standard) Angel. I was
looking
> at some goofy live bearers and the shops Angel tank was right behind
the tank I
> was looking in. This female Angel was going crazy for me. There was no
way that
> fish was going to stay in the shop another day, or at least she was
giving it
> her best try.
> Well....it worked. = )

I know that feeling. There are 3 Altum Angelfish in the store who act
like they are perfectly domesticated eating everything I throw in, and
watching me very carefully. Not at all typical for a wild caught fish
that was in a river a few weeks ago. If only I wasn't on well water :o(

NetMax

[Rick]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
> >From: "Rick"
> >Date: 3/20/2004 12:02 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
>
> Ah...why not remove the either the parents or the eggs, and raise them
> yourself.
> The unfertilized eggs can be easily picked right off with a toothpick.
> I have egg eating parents before, and they drove me bonkers. Double
blacks.
> Wonderful stock. Egg eaters galore.
> They were middle of the night (well would be considered morning really),
> spawners so it was hard to catch them before they ate them.
> I even tried setting my alarm several times a night to try and catch them.
> They were SO obvious that day when they were going to spawn, so I'd set
my
> alarm and try to catch them. But nope. Little buggers. I never did catch
a
> spawn from them. Those were one of the pairs that went down when Piscene
TB
> went through my house.
> That, was so hard on me. I had several breeding pairs that died from it,
and
> some I had to euthanize myself. Actually, it was the first time I had to
> euthanize and it about killed me.
> I couldn't bring myself to own ANY fish that was aware of their
surroundings
> and became tame to their keeper for many years.
> That all changed the day I saw this one silver (standard) Angel. I was
looking
> at some goofy live bearers and the shops Angel tank was right behind the
tank I
> was looking in. This female Angel was going crazy for me. There was no way
that
> fish was going to stay in the shop another day, or at least she was giving
it
> her best try.
> Well....it worked. = )
> She came home and turned out to be one of the best breeders, and best
parents
> I've had (so far).
> I could do anything in their tank when they had eggs or fry. She never
minded
> my hands one bit. Her mate, on the other hand had quite the fit. I would
have
> to remove him to anything in their tank....unless I wanted to get bit.
They can
> pinch good when they want to. = /
> It was a very sad day for me when she died of old age.
> That one fish made me realize that no matter what obstacles I face in this
> hobby.....I have to go on. I'm just not happy without Angelfish (and
bettas
> too!).
> Since her death, I have had the Angelfish Virus (aka Discus plague) hit my
> tanks twice (!!), but yet.....I face it, deal with it and start over.
> I am actually just now restocked after that second round with the Angel
virus.
> I've got some lovely veils. I know I've got a male and female silver veil
> pair...but the male also has his eye on a female Koi.
> I sure he changes his mind and stays with his...well, my choice of mates
for
> him.
> I hadn't planned on spawning them, as I'm doing Bettas now, but what an
odd
> pair that would make... a Silver and a Koi???
> Yesterday and today he's been mainly with the Silver female.....that would
be
> just fine. = ) They don't always agree, but that's what I get for housing
them
> all in one tank.
>


I did remove the eggs once but none turned out viable. I will give it
another shot next time. We are going on a Caribbean cruise on April 2nd so I
have been trying to set up feeders, have arranged for someone to come in a
feed the fish without feeders and don't ya know that my Corydoras are
spawning like crazy right now. I have a friend who runs the fish part of a
large Pet store chain where I am and he got in some very nice P. Altums. The
angel fish plague wiped out the whole works. Very potent disease that one.

Rick

[NetMax]

"Rick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > "Rick" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > Positioning the eggs under water flow, or above an airstone so that
there
> > is moving water across them might help with your situation. This
assumes
> > that fungus is your root problem and not infertility (which there is
> > always some of). Have you observed their ovipositors? Occasionally
a
> > couple of females will get together to do the deed. Keep in mind
that
> > they might not ever get it right, so then just separate the parents
and
> > use an airstone and meth..blue in the water, as soon as the eggs are
> > laid. I wish the solution to my problem was clearer. I'm just going
to
> > rotate breeders, perhaps I'll try some Altums or Discus in there next
:o)
> >
> > so many fish, too few tanks, so little time
> > NetMax
> >
> >
>
> definitely a male and female. The first time they spawned just about
all the
> eggs appeared unfertilized and I wrote this off to inexperience and
perhaps
> I had the slate too close to the large sponge filter in their tank and
it
> pulled the sperm away from the eggs. The 2nd time a lot of the eggs
were
> white and they began the picking off the white one's but it seemed that
> there were so many of them that in the end they decided to eat them
all. The
> 3rd time they laid on a large leaf which I removed and placed in a 5
gallon
> tank with a small air stone running at reduced flow near by. I added
some
> meth blue but all the eggs in this case turned white and of course the
last
> time I was hopeful as most of the eggs appeared viable but they ate
them
> all. I'm going to try and remove the eggs again next time, add more
meth.
> blue and see how it goes.
>
> Rick

It might be a fertility problem with the female too. Conditioning and a
few more practice runs might do the trick. Separate conditioning might
give the female a bit of a break between spawns, improving viability.
What you use for conditioning can make a difference too. Frozen foods,
high protein pellets and vitamin enriched flakes will all help.

NetMax

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: OT Angelfish was Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 3/21/2004 11:50 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Rick" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> >
>> > "Rick" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > Positioning the eggs under water flow, or above an airstone so that
>there
>> > is moving water across them might help with your situation. This
>assumes
>> > that fungus is your root problem and not infertility (which there is
>> > always some of). Have you observed their ovipositors? Occasionally
>a
>> > couple of females will get together to do the deed. Keep in mind
>that
>> > they might not ever get it right, so then just separate the parents
>and
>> > use an airstone and meth..blue in the water, as soon as the eggs are
>> > laid. I wish the solution to my problem was clearer. I'm just going
>to
>> > rotate breeders, perhaps I'll try some Altums or Discus in there next
>:o)
>> >
>> > so many fish, too few tanks, so little time
>> > NetMax
>> >
>> >
>>
>> definitely a male and female. The first time they spawned just about
>all the
>> eggs appeared unfertilized and I wrote this off to inexperience and
>perhaps
>> I had the slate too close to the large sponge filter in their tank and
>it
>> pulled the sperm away from the eggs. The 2nd time a lot of the eggs
>were
>> white and they began the picking off the white one's but it seemed that
>> there were so many of them that in the end they decided to eat them
>all. The
>> 3rd time they laid on a large leaf which I removed and placed in a 5
>gallon
>> tank with a small air stone running at reduced flow near by. I added
>some
>> meth blue but all the eggs in this case turned white and of course the
>last
>> time I was hopeful as most of the eggs appeared viable but they ate
>them
>> all. I'm going to try and remove the eggs again next time, add more
>meth.
>> blue and see how it goes.
>>
>> Rick
>
>It might be a fertility problem with the female too. Conditioning and a
>few more practice runs might do the trick. Separate conditioning might
>give the female a bit of a break between spawns, improving viability.
>What you use for conditioning can make a difference too. Frozen foods,
>high protein pellets and vitamin enriched flakes will all help.
>
>NetMax
>

I agree. = )

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: OT Angels, was Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 3/20/2004 10:44 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>> >From: "Rick"
>> >Date: 3/20/2004 12:02 PM Central Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
><snip>
>> That all changed the day I saw this one silver (standard) Angel. I was
>looking
>> at some goofy live bearers and the shops Angel tank was right behind
>the tank I
>> was looking in. This female Angel was going crazy for me. There was no
>way that
>> fish was going to stay in the shop another day, or at least she was
>giving it
>> her best try.
>> Well....it worked. = )
>
>I know that feeling. There are 3 Altum Angelfish in the store who act
>like they are perfectly domesticated eating everything I throw in, and
>watching me very carefully. Not at all typical for a wild caught fish
>that was in a river a few weeks ago. If only I wasn't on well water :o(
>
>NetMax
>

Wow.
Is the store yours, or is that you just work there? If it's your store...just
keep them there. They've adopted YOU as their keeper.
Pretty amazing considering their Altums.
At my recent trip Chicago, IL's John G Shedd Aquarium(world's largest public
aquarium)...I saw, for the first time, fully mature Altums. They looked a bit
odd to me, as they didn't look so "snooty". = )
Don't get me wrong, they still had the upturned mouth, just different.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Anfel fish plague..
>From: "Rick"
>Date: 3/21/2004 8:57 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>> >From: "Rick"
>> >Date: 3/20/2004 12:02 PM Central Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>>
>> Ah...why not remove the either the parents or the eggs, and raise them
>> yourself.
>> The unfertilized eggs can be easily picked right off with a toothpick.
>> I have egg eating parents before, and they drove me bonkers. Double
>blacks.
>> Wonderful stock. Egg eaters galore.
>> They were middle of the night (well would be considered morning really),
>> spawners so it was hard to catch them before they ate them.
>> I even tried setting my alarm several times a night to try and catch them.
>> They were SO obvious that day when they were going to spawn, so I'd set
>my
>> alarm and try to catch them. But nope. Little buggers. I never did catch
>a
>> spawn from them. Those were one of the pairs that went down when Piscene
>TB
>> went through my house.
>> That, was so hard on me. I had several breeding pairs that died from it,
>and
>> some I had to euthanize myself. Actually, it was the first time I had to
>> euthanize and it about killed me.
>> I couldn't bring myself to own ANY fish that was aware of their
>surroundings
>> and became tame to their keeper for many years.
>> That all changed the day I saw this one silver (standard) Angel. I was
>looking
>> at some goofy live bearers and the shops Angel tank was right behind the
>tank I
>> was looking in. This female Angel was going crazy for me. There was no way
>that
>> fish was going to stay in the shop another day, or at least she was giving
>it
>> her best try.
>> Well....it worked. = )
>> She came home and turned out to be one of the best breeders, and best
>parents
>> I've had (so far).
>> I could do anything in their tank when they had eggs or fry. She never
>minded
>> my hands one bit. Her mate, on the other hand had quite the fit. I would
>have
>> to remove him to anything in their tank....unless I wanted to get bit.
>They can
>> pinch good when they want to. = /
>> It was a very sad day for me when she died of old age.
>> That one fish made me realize that no matter what obstacles I face in this
>> hobby.....I have to go on. I'm just not happy without Angelfish (and
>bettas
>> too!).
>> Since her death, I have had the Angelfish Virus (aka Discus plague) hit my
>> tanks twice (!!), but yet.....I face it, deal with it and start over.
>> I am actually just now restocked after that second round with the Angel
>virus.
>> I've got some lovely veils. I know I've got a male and female silver veil
>> pair...but the male also has his eye on a female Koi.
>> I sure he changes his mind and stays with his...well, my choice of mates
>for
>> him.
>> I hadn't planned on spawning them, as I'm doing Bettas now, but what an
>odd
>> pair that would make... a Silver and a Koi???
>> Yesterday and today he's been mainly with the Silver female.....that would
>be
>> just fine. = ) They don't always agree, but that's what I get for housing
>them
>> all in one tank.
>>
>
>
>I did remove the eggs once but none turned out viable. I will give it
>another shot next time. We are going on a Caribbean cruise on April 2nd so I
>have been trying to set up feeders, have arranged for someone to come in a
>feed the fish without feeders and don't ya know that my Corydoras are
>spawning like crazy right now. I have a friend who runs the fish part of a
>large Pet store chain where I am and he got in some very nice P. Altums. The
>angel fish plague wiped out the whole works. Very potent disease that one.
>
>Rick
>

NO kidding!
Just awful. for those that don't know, it only affects Angelfish and Discus,
yet can be carried by any fish.
It's highly contagious...I'm talking a miscroscopic droplet of infected water
can spread through an entire fish room in no time, killing ALL the young Angels
and about 80% of the adults.
Those are the odds for Angels, I do not know the odds for Discus.
I had made a mistake in my other post..I said I had the virus 2 X's after the
TB bout...I got them confused...I had the virus in the late 80's when it first
hit the states.
Wiped out ALL my stock of jet black veils. I had just made a switch from
standard to veils...had all young stock. Killed them all.
Killed so any Angels in the US back then. Nobody knew what it was.
Basically, it's like fish aids.
The fish's immune system is wiped out and they actually die from secondary
infections.
I then had TB hit in the early 90's.
Then the Angel virus again 1 1/2-2 yrs ago

[NetMax]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Anfel fish plague..
> >From: "Rick"
> >Date: 3/21/2004 8:57 AM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
> >> >From: "Rick"
> >> >Date: 3/20/2004 12:02 PM Central Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
<snip>
> >I did remove the eggs once but none turned out viable. I will give it
> >another shot next time. We are going on a Caribbean cruise on April
2nd so I
> >have been trying to set up feeders, have arranged for someone to come
in a
> >feed the fish without feeders and don't ya know that my Corydoras are
> >spawning like crazy right now. I have a friend who runs the fish part
of a
> >large Pet store chain where I am and he got in some very nice P.
Altums. The
> >angel fish plague wiped out the whole works. Very potent disease that
one.
> >
> >Rick
> >
>
> NO kidding!
> Just awful. for those that don't know, it only affects Angelfish and
Discus,
> yet can be carried by any fish.
> It's highly contagious...I'm talking a miscroscopic droplet of infected
water
> can spread through an entire fish room in no time, killing ALL the
young Angels
> and about 80% of the adults.
> Those are the odds for Angels, I do not know the odds for Discus.
> I had made a mistake in my other post..I said I had the virus 2 X's
after the
> TB bout...I got them confused...I had the virus in the late 80's when
it first
> hit the states.
> Wiped out ALL my stock of jet black veils. I had just made a switch
from
> standard to veils...had all young stock. Killed them all.
> Killed so any Angels in the US back then. Nobody knew what it was.
> Basically, it's like fish aids.
> The fish's immune system is wiped out and they actually die from
secondary
> infections.
> I then had TB hit in the early 90's.
> Then the Angel virus again 1 1/2-2 yrs ago

Even with my arsenal of medications, I'm still paranoid about disease
prevention, isolation and grouping. I don't own the shop, but I manage
the fish dept. I've set up a lot of disease prevention procedures, like
every tank has a net and its own algae scrubbing pad (I raised a few
eyebrows when I ordered over 100 scrub pads ;~) Nets which find
themselves out of a tank, extra nets, or nets from suspect tanks and
dipped (aquarisol solution for parasites) and hung to dry overnight
(dehydration for bacteria). Spigots used to feed frozen foods are not
allowed to contact the water. The gravel vacuum is dipped between tanks
and suspect tanks are always skipped and done last. I keep a log book so
I know every medication used in every tank since we opened over a year
ago (btw: tanks with the least medications, typically zero, are the
African cichlids). I keep a 'ghost' log, so any trends across employee
shifts still get noted quickly and treatments started (btw: fish which
die with the least symptoms are Tiger barbs). Only three people are
trained and qualified to apply medications, and I schedule it so one of
them is on each day of the week. Suspect fish are either in ISO tanks,
or I quarantine their display tank (reversing the signage to prevent sale
or access). I keep 7 Discus tanks, so they are isolated from each other
for as long as possible, and they are separated according to source. All
my Angels are domestic and local (the imports were an invitation to
disaster). All Koi are purchased as certified virus-free, and they are
still isolated for 2 weeks. All fish are fed a minimum of 3 different
foods (proper conditioning and clean water are the cornerstones to
disease prevention).

Some of this makes no difference to some customers, but others smile &
nod knowingly. Honestly though, it's a lot of work to keep up with it,
and I still have to battle diseases. My hat is off to experienced fish
retailers who do this day-in & day-out, and for the rest of the LFS, I
can only imagine what they do or don't do (definitely, ymmv).

NetMax

[coelacanth]

>
> I had 7 Otos in there, but when the Angels started flicking the leaves to
> prepare the site, I removed them (try catching 7 Otos in a planted 135g,
> it took traps). I wasn't sure if the Otos could interfere, but I didn't
> want any variables I couldn't control. The only thing alive in there
> should be some Malaysian Trumpet snails. I might have picked up some
> parasitic hitchhikers in the wild plants, but then I wouldn't lose all
> the fry in a span of 1 day. Thanks for the suggestions though.
>
> NetMax
>
Slightly off topic, but you know, for all my whining about
genetically engineered fish, I'd pay top dollar for an
Angelfish with it's parenting genes transplanted from
a normal cichlid...

-coelacanth

[lonerider]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Anfel fish plague..
> > >From: "Rick"
> > >Date: 3/21/2004 8:57 AM Central Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > >
> > >"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
> > >> >From: "Rick"
> > >> >Date: 3/20/2004 12:02 PM Central Standard Time
> > >> >Message-id: >
> <snip>
> > >I did remove the eggs once but none turned out viable. I will give it
> > >another shot next time. We are going on a Caribbean cruise on April
> 2nd so I
> > >have been trying to set up feeders, have arranged for someone to come
> in a
> > >feed the fish without feeders and don't ya know that my Corydoras are
> > >spawning like crazy right now. I have a friend who runs the fish part
> of a
> > >large Pet store chain where I am and he got in some very nice P.
> Altums. The
> > >angel fish plague wiped out the whole works. Very potent disease that
> one.
> > >
> > >Rick
> > >
> >
> > NO kidding!
> > Just awful. for those that don't know, it only affects Angelfish and
> Discus,
> > yet can be carried by any fish.
> > It's highly contagious...I'm talking a miscroscopic droplet of infected
> water
> > can spread through an entire fish room in no time, killing ALL the
> young Angels
> > and about 80% of the adults.
> > Those are the odds for Angels, I do not know the odds for Discus.
> > I had made a mistake in my other post..I said I had the virus 2 X's
> after the
> > TB bout...I got them confused...I had the virus in the late 80's when
> it first
> > hit the states.
> > Wiped out ALL my stock of jet black veils. I had just made a switch
> from
> > standard to veils...had all young stock. Killed them all.
> > Killed so any Angels in the US back then. Nobody knew what it was.
> > Basically, it's like fish aids.
> > The fish's immune system is wiped out and they actually die from
> secondary
> > infections.
> > I then had TB hit in the early 90's.
> > Then the Angel virus again 1 1/2-2 yrs ago
>
> Even with my arsenal of medications, I'm still paranoid about disease
> prevention, isolation and grouping. I don't own the shop, but I manage
> the fish dept. I've set up a lot of disease prevention procedures, like
> every tank has a net and its own algae scrubbing pad (I raised a few
> eyebrows when I ordered over 100 scrub pads ;~) Nets which find
> themselves out of a tank, extra nets, or nets from suspect tanks and
> dipped (aquarisol solution for parasites) and hung to dry overnight
> (dehydration for bacteria). Spigots used to feed frozen foods are not
> allowed to contact the water. The gravel vacuum is dipped between tanks
> and suspect tanks are always skipped and done last. I keep a log book so
> I know every medication used in every tank since we opened over a year
> ago (btw: tanks with the least medications, typically zero, are the
> African cichlids). I keep a 'ghost' log, so any trends across employee
> shifts still get noted quickly and treatments started (btw: fish which
> die with the least symptoms are Tiger barbs). Only three people are
> trained and qualified to apply medications, and I schedule it so one of
> them is on each day of the week. Suspect fish are either in ISO tanks,
> or I quarantine their display tank (reversing the signage to prevent sale
> or access). I keep 7 Discus tanks, so they are isolated from each other
> for as long as possible, and they are separated according to source. All
> my Angels are domestic and local (the imports were an invitation to
> disaster). All Koi are purchased as certified virus-free, and they are
> still isolated for 2 weeks. All fish are fed a minimum of 3 different
> foods (proper conditioning and clean water are the cornerstones to
> disease prevention).
>
> Some of this makes no difference to some customers, but others smile &
> nod knowingly. Honestly though, it's a lot of work to keep up with it,
> and I still have to battle diseases. My hat is off to experienced fish
> retailers who do this day-in & day-out, and for the rest of the LFS, I
> can only imagine what they do or don't do (definitely, ymmv).
>
> NetMax
>
Hello NetMax,
Are all your tanks hooked up to one filtration system with a u.v. sterilizer
? the only local guy here i trust built his own system 7 years ago, all the
plumbing is home made. 4 huge u.v sterilizers. I'm not sure how many watts
but it cost him just over $2000 u.s every 6 months to replace bulbs. He has
a huge wet dry biological system too. Uses a good % of salt in the water.
Also has a diseal generator for back up power. Don't know about his salt
water set up, i never bothered to ask because i don't understand salt water.
I try to stop in whenever i am passing through that town, if it's slow we
just talk "fish" for a while. The other shops around here always have bad
looking tanks with dead decaying fish in them. I saw pics of your place on
binaries, very very nice.
lonerider

[NetMax]

"coelacanth" > wrote in message
. com...
> >
> > I had 7 Otos in there, but when the Angels started flicking the
leaves to
> > prepare the site, I removed them (try catching 7 Otos in a planted
135g,
> > it took traps). I wasn't sure if the Otos could interfere, but I
didn't
> > want any variables I couldn't control. The only thing alive in there
> > should be some Malaysian Trumpet snails. I might have picked up some
> > parasitic hitchhikers in the wild plants, but then I wouldn't lose
all
> > the fry in a span of 1 day. Thanks for the suggestions though.
> >
> > NetMax
> >
> Slightly off topic, but you know, for all my whining about
> genetically engineered fish, I'd pay top dollar for an
> Angelfish with it's parenting genes transplanted from
> a normal cichlid...
>
> -coelacanth

ROTFLMAO, almost split my drink :o))

NetMax

[NetMax]

"lonerider" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >Subject: Anfel fish plague..
> > > >From: "Rick"
> > > >Date: 3/21/2004 8:57 AM Central Standard Time
> > > >Message-id: >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >> >Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
> > > >> >From: "Rick"
> > > >> >Date: 3/20/2004 12:02 PM Central Standard Time
> > > >> >Message-id: >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Even with my arsenal of medications, I'm still paranoid about disease
> > prevention, isolation and grouping. I don't own the shop, but I
manage
> > the fish dept. I've set up a lot of disease prevention procedures,
like
> > every tank has a net and its own algae scrubbing pad (I raised a few
> > eyebrows when I ordered over 100 scrub pads ;~) Nets which find
> > themselves out of a tank, extra nets, or nets from suspect tanks and
> > dipped (aquarisol solution for parasites) and hung to dry overnight
> > (dehydration for bacteria). Spigots used to feed frozen foods are
not
> > allowed to contact the water. The gravel vacuum is dipped between
tanks
> > and suspect tanks are always skipped and done last. I keep a log
book so
> > I know every medication used in every tank since we opened over a
year
> > ago (btw: tanks with the least medications, typically zero, are the
> > African cichlids). I keep a 'ghost' log, so any trends across
employee
> > shifts still get noted quickly and treatments started (btw: fish
which
> > die with the least symptoms are Tiger barbs). Only three people are
> > trained and qualified to apply medications, and I schedule it so one
of
> > them is on each day of the week. Suspect fish are either in ISO
tanks,
> > or I quarantine their display tank (reversing the signage to prevent
sale
> > or access). I keep 7 Discus tanks, so they are isolated from each
other
> > for as long as possible, and they are separated according to source.
All
> > my Angels are domestic and local (the imports were an invitation to
> > disaster). All Koi are purchased as certified virus-free, and they
are
> > still isolated for 2 weeks. All fish are fed a minimum of 3
different
> > foods (proper conditioning and clean water are the cornerstones to
> > disease prevention).
> >
> > Some of this makes no difference to some customers, but others smile
&
> > nod knowingly. Honestly though, it's a lot of work to keep up with
it,
> > and I still have to battle diseases. My hat is off to experienced
fish
> > retailers who do this day-in & day-out, and for the rest of the LFS,
I
> > can only imagine what they do or don't do (definitely, ymmv).
> >
> > NetMax
> >
> Hello NetMax,
> Are all your tanks hooked up to one filtration system with a u.v.
sterilizer
> ? the only local guy here i trust built his own system 7 years ago, all
the
> plumbing is home made. 4 huge u.v sterilizers. I'm not sure how many
watts
> but it cost him just over $2000 u.s every 6 months to replace bulbs. He
has
> a huge wet dry biological system too. Uses a good % of salt in the
water.
> Also has a diseal generator for back up power. Don't know about his
salt
> water set up, i never bothered to ask because i don't understand salt
water.
> I try to stop in whenever i am passing through that town, if it's slow
we
> just talk "fish" for a while. The other shops around here always have
bad
> looking tanks with dead decaying fish in them. I saw pics of your place
on
> binaries, very very nice.
> lonerider

Not centralized, and I'm happy about that. We use a process controller
(for automatic lawn-watering) which opens 1 of 4 relays 16 times a day to
let charcoal filtered city water into the tanks. The tanks are all
drilled with rear overflows, and the water goes down the drain. They are
individually filtered with an air powered sponge which is about 18" high
and maybe 6" in diameter, behind a 3 stage corner trap. I don't use much
salt (only for livebearers GF and brackish) or chemicals or even the UV
except for the odd job. Most of the tanks are planted, so I rely on lots
of water changes and I use a lot of quality food.

I can't remember what I posted, but thanks for the compliment on the
photos.
NetMax