Tank still struggling to cycle after 6 weeks

[Frederick B. Henry Jr.]

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Hi all again,

I posted several weeks ago about a new 10 gallon tank with 3 black neon
tetras, two glowlight tetras and one harlequin rasbora (along with three
neons that died about three days after introduction). I was seeing
about 2 ppm ammonia and no nitrites then, but had also been siphoning
the gravel whilst doing 25% water changes in order to save the fish some
injury.

Before adding the fish the tank had sat empty, with a white gravel
substrate, 4 plastic plants and a whisper bio-filter and a bubbling
treasure chest at 75 F for three weeks with a few blind feedings.

The pH is about 7.4 (no test for hardness yet). The living fish cited
above seem very lively and energetic, even after a three day weekend
vacation. I feed them sparsely, at most one time a day with a small
pinch of flakes, which they devour readily. Mostly now I feed them
every other day. The ammonia keeps surging to abot 3 ppm, at which time
I have been doing a water change of 25% and one time forgetting that I
shouldn't vacuum the gravel. The nitrite remains at 0 ppm, although
before I accidentally, and against the better advice of this group,
vacuumed the gravel last week, the nitrite seemed to be shading toward
0.25 ppm. So maybe I damaged the growing bacterial colony.

In any case, I am just perplexed at why it is taking so long, when
everything I have read seems to suggest that it is just a matter of a
month or so and ammonia should be 0 ppm and I should see some nitrite.
My Aquar. Pharm. test kit just keeps shoiwng me that sad empty light
blue.

I went online and ordered some "Cycle" finally so I can at least try
that to start it going. Again, the fish appear fine. Where are the
_Nitrosomonas_? I see some brown spots groing on the glass and plants
and gravel...is that a good sign or bad?

TIA

Fred

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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais

[NetMax]

"Frederick B. Henry Jr." > wrote in message
...
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> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi all again,
>
> I posted several weeks ago about a new 10 gallon tank with 3 black neon
> tetras, two glowlight tetras and one harlequin rasbora (along with
> three
> neons that died about three days after introduction). I was seeing
> about 2 ppm ammonia and no nitrites then, but had also been siphoning
> the gravel whilst doing 25% water changes in order to save the fish
> some
> injury.
>
> Before adding the fish the tank had sat empty, with a white gravel
> substrate, 4 plastic plants and a whisper bio-filter and a bubbling
> treasure chest at 75 F for three weeks with a few blind feedings.
>
> The pH is about 7.4 (no test for hardness yet). The living fish cited
> above seem very lively and energetic, even after a three day weekend
> vacation. I feed them sparsely, at most one time a day with a small
> pinch of flakes, which they devour readily. Mostly now I feed them
> every other day. The ammonia keeps surging to abot 3 ppm, at which
> time
> I have been doing a water change of 25% and one time forgetting that I
> shouldn't vacuum the gravel. The nitrite remains at 0 ppm, although
> before I accidentally, and against the better advice of this group,
> vacuumed the gravel last week, the nitrite seemed to be shading toward
> 0.25 ppm. So maybe I damaged the growing bacterial colony.
>
> In any case, I am just perplexed at why it is taking so long, when
> everything I have read seems to suggest that it is just a matter of a
> month or so and ammonia should be 0 ppm and I should see some nitrite.
> My Aquar. Pharm. test kit just keeps shoiwng me that sad empty light
> blue.
>
> I went online and ordered some "Cycle" finally so I can at least try
> that to start it going. Again, the fish appear fine. Where are the
> _Nitrosomonas_? I see some brown spots groing on the glass and plants
> and gravel...is that a good sign or bad?
>
> TIA
>
> Fred


Gravel vacuuming should not (as far as I know) disrupt the nitrifying
bacteria from forming. There are many bacteria everywhere, coating
various surfaces. The bacteria more commonly found in the substrate are
the ones which break down solid waste (which is why they are where they
are). I believe these bacteria are quite conventional in the rate of
reproduction, following the typical 20 minute pattern to replicate.
Nitrifying bacteria seek out surfaces closer to rich sources of oxygen
and within reach of ammonia, nitrites etc, so they populate your filter
media in high numbers. I think you should be gravel-vacuuming (to remove
ammonia sources) and leave your filter alone (running 24/7).

The product Cycle used to be of minimal use, showing some value against
ammonia (and less against nitrites). Bio-Spira is often cited here as a
true bacteria starter (though I have no experience or need of it). I
just set up a large tank with a significant population of fish and it's
basically instantly cycled as I transferred a well aged, oversized filter
over to this tank. Once you have tanks, cycling another one is trivial.
Only the first tank causes any adventures. In your case, I would just
keep to your regiment of water changes when the NH3 gets too high. Brown
spots are algae, fungus, molds etc (probably algae and will help reduce
your ammonia insignificantly). It's a good sign (biologically) and bad
(cosmetically if you will want to clean it ;~). Let us know how you
progress. It can sometimes take many weeks to cycle (ie: 8 weeks),
though 3 to 4 tends to be typical.
cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Frank]

Frederick B. Henry Jr. wrote,
>In any case, I am just perplexed at why it is taking so long, when
>everything I have read seems to suggest that it is just a matter of a
>month or so and ammonia should be 0 ppm and I should see some nitrite. ...

A few years back, there was a guy in alt. aquaria newsgroup 12 weeks
into a fishless cycle. He had no filter media within his filter - need
I, - - - no, never mind, I won't ask...
0.25 ppm nitrite - cycle started! Any way you could have killed the
bacterial colony off with water changes (no dechlorinator)?
If you were doing a fishless cycle - it would be called a "never ending
cycle". Sometimes happens when one feeds ammonia daily - to much
ammonia for the nitrosomonas bacteria to keep up with it... Another way
for an "endless cycle" is by daily adding bacteria in a bottle... With
you feeding the fish once a day, I can't see it being a "never ending
cycle" - but something is really slowing your cycle. Like NetMax, I
have heard of 8 week cycles, but they are far and few inbetween!

>I went online and ordered some "Cycle" finally so I can at least try
>that to start it going.....

Now that you see a nitrite reading, you already have the bacterial
colony starting - no need for the "Cycle".

>I see some brown spots groing on the glass and plants
>and gravel...is that a good sign or bad?

Called Diatoms - cause, excess nutrients, silicate and silicic acid in
tap water. Goes away once the tank becomes 'established'.
................. Frank

[Frederick B. Henry Jr.]

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On 2006-04-21, Frank > wrote:
> Frederick B. Henry Jr. wrote,
>>In any case, I am just perplexed at why it is taking so long, when
>>everything I have read seems to suggest that it is just a matter of a
>>month or so and ammonia should be 0 ppm and I should see some nitrite. ...
>
> A few years back, there was a guy in alt. aquaria newsgroup 12 weeks
> into a fishless cycle. He had no filter media within his filter - need
> I, - - - no, never mind, I won't ask...

I have a Whisper Bio-filter, which came with a filter bag that appears
to have some charcoal or somesuch within it; it came as part of a
starter kit and I am pretty certain it is not missing the media. The
bacteria grow on that media correct?

> 0.25 ppm nitrite - cycle started! Any way you could have killed the
> bacterial colony off with water changes (no dechlorinator)?

I use a 2.5 gallon bucket and add 1/4 teaspon of Aquasafe every water
change.

> If you were doing a fishless cycle - it would be called a "never ending
> cycle". Sometimes happens when one feeds ammonia daily - to much
> ammonia for the nitrosomonas bacteria to keep up with it... Another way

The ammonia has approached 4 ppm but I did an immediate water change and
it hasn't gotten that high again.

>>I went online and ordered some "Cycle" finally so I can at least try
>>that to start it going.....
>
> Now that you see a nitrite reading, you already have the bacterial
> colony starting - no need for the "Cycle".
>

Well, I went ahead and added a capful, 5 m/L anyhow. I'll watch the
chemistry closely and cross my fingers.

>>I see some brown spots groing on the glass and plants
>>and gravel...is that a good sign or bad?
>
> Called Diatoms - cause, excess nutrients, silicate and silicic acid in
> tap water. Goes away once the tank becomes 'established'.
> ................ Frank

Thanks for the info!


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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais

[Frederick B. Henry Jr.]

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On 2006-04-21, NetMax > wrote:
> "Frederick B. Henry Jr." > wrote in message
> ...
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Hi all again,
>>
>> I posted several weeks ago about a new 10 gallon tank with 3 black neon
>> tetras, two glowlight tetras and one harlequin rasbora (along with
>
>
> Gravel vacuuming should not (as far as I know) disrupt the nitrifying
> bacteria from forming. There are many bacteria everywhere, coating
> various surfaces. The bacteria more commonly found in the substrate are
> the ones which break down solid waste (which is why they are where they
> are). I believe these bacteria are quite conventional in the rate of
> reproduction, following the typical 20 minute pattern to replicate.
> Nitrifying bacteria seek out surfaces closer to rich sources of oxygen
> and within reach of ammonia, nitrites etc, so they populate your filter
> media in high numbers. I think you should be gravel-vacuuming (to remove
> ammonia sources) and leave your filter alone (running 24/7).

Filter runs 24/7, as it has since I got the tank.

>
> The product Cycle used to be of minimal use, showing some value against
> ammonia (and less against nitrites). Bio-Spira is often cited here as a
> true bacteria starter (though I have no experience or need of it). I
> just set up a large tank with a significant population of fish and it's
> basically instantly cycled as I transferred a well aged, oversized filter
> over to this tank. Once you have tanks, cycling another one is trivial.
> Only the first tank causes any adventures. In your case, I would just
> keep to your regiment of water changes when the NH3 gets too high. Brown
> spots are algae, fungus, molds etc (probably algae and will help reduce
> your ammonia insignificantly). It's a good sign (biologically) and bad
> (cosmetically if you will want to clean it ;~). Let us know how you
> progress. It can sometimes take many weeks to cycle (ie: 8 weeks),
> though 3 to 4 tends to be typical.
> cheers

Thanks for your advice!

Fred

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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais

[Mister Gardener]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:17:04 -0000, "Frederick B. Henry Jr."
> wrote:

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>Hash: SHA1
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>On 2006-04-21, Frank > wrote:
>> Frederick B. Henry Jr. wrote,
>>>In any case, I am just perplexed at why it is taking so long, when
>>>everything I have read seems to suggest that it is just a matter of a
>>>month or so and ammonia should be 0 ppm and I should see some nitrite. ...
>>
>> A few years back, there was a guy in alt. aquaria newsgroup 12 weeks
>> into a fishless cycle. He had no filter media within his filter - need
>> I, - - - no, never mind, I won't ask...
>
>I have a Whisper Bio-filter, which came with a filter bag that appears
>to have some charcoal or somesuch within it; it came as part of a
>starter kit and I am pretty certain it is not missing the media. The
>bacteria grow on that media correct?

Your Whisper grows bacteria on the brown sponge which is placed
between the white biobag and the waterfall output. The charcoal in the
biobag is carbon, and it adsorbs impurities from your water, such as
medications and sometimes helps with "cloudiness". It is not needed
for routine use, many people never use it, except to clear the tank of
medications they have added to the tank. Once again, the brown sponge
is your biological filter, it should rarely need attention, once or
twice a year, never washed with chlorinated or hot water, the white
biobag is your mechanical filter, which captures big stuff like plant
parts and fish food. It also grows bacteria on the inner black frame,
so when you replace or rinse the biobag, treat the black frame as you
do the sponge. Hope this helps.

-- Mister Gardener

Everything Aquaria & Tropical Fish at The Krib:
http://faq.thekrib.com/