American Flag Fish

[Nemo]

I got a pair of these a couple of says ago. They seem to be surface fish
that lazy around all day and all night. For a fish that is supposed to rival
the SAE, I have not seen them touch any algae yet. The male is a little
short with the female. They change colour tike a chameleon! But otherwise,
not very interesting.

Could be my temp at 79-80 oF. They like cooler temperatures.

[Harry Muscle]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> I thought that it was the Florida Flag Fish, thus FFF.... if you got AFF,
> you got the wrong fish my friend....
>
> http://www.floridadriftwood.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=229&1=230&2=-1&6=1
>
> --
> RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!!

They are the same species, check out
http://www.fishprofiles.com/profiles/fw/profile.asp?id=Jordanella+floridae .

Harry




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[RedForeman ©®]

I thought that it was the Florida Flag Fish, thus FFF.... if you got AFF,
you got the wrong fish my friend....

http://www.floridadriftwood.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=229&1=230&2=-1&6=1

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).
"Nemo" > wrote in message
...
> I got a pair of these a couple of says ago. They seem to be surface fish
> that lazy around all day and all night. For a fish that is supposed to
rival
> the SAE, I have not seen them touch any algae yet. The male is a little
> short with the female. They change colour tike a chameleon! But otherwise,
> not very interesting.
>
> Could be my temp at 79-80 oF. They like cooler temperatures.
>
>

[RedForeman ©®]

"Harry Muscle" > wrote in message
> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> > I thought that it was the Florida Flag Fish, thus FFF.... if you got
AFF,
> > you got the wrong fish my friend....
> >
> > http://www.floridadriftwood.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=229&1=230&2=-1&6=1
> >
> > --
> > RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!
>
> They are the same species, check out
> http://www.fishprofiles.com/profiles/fw/profile.asp?id=Jordanella+floridae
..
>
> Harry


This I did not know... that's good to know harry... Thanks. I stand duly
corrected...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Nemo]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> "Harry Muscle" > wrote in message
> > "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> > > I thought that it was the Florida Flag Fish, thus FFF.... if you got
> AFF,
> > > you got the wrong fish my friend....
> > >
> > > http://www.floridadriftwood.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=229&1=230&2=-1&6=1
> > >
> > > --
> > > RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
> streetfighter!!!
> >
> > They are the same species, check out
> >
http://www.fishprofiles.com/profiles/fw/profile.asp?id=Jordanella+floridae
> .
> >
> > Harry
>
>
> This I did not know... that's good to know harry... Thanks. I stand duly
> corrected...

Apparently, it is a common mistake. The name of the fish is after its
colouration. The male has the American Flag stripes / colours on the body
and the fins - hince the name. The fish does not look like the Florida Flag
:). albeit being native to the everglades.

Cheers

[NetMax]

"Nemo" > wrote in message
...
> I got a pair of these a couple of says ago. They seem to be surface
fish
> that lazy around all day and all night. For a fish that is supposed to
rival
> the SAE, I have not seen them touch any algae yet. The male is a little
> short with the female. They change colour tike a chameleon! But
otherwise,
> not very interesting.
>
> Could be my temp at 79-80 oF. They like cooler temperatures.

Mine hang around the underbrush like Kribs. I haven't made up my mind on
how effective they are as algae eaters yet. They are hard to buy around
here, and I have a short but loyal waiting list of buyers for them.

The best algae control is in a large tank with a diversity of algae
eaters (SAE, FFF, Otos, plecs, Ramshorns, Mollies, Apples, shrimps etc).
I thought of doing that in a planted 135g, but so far, the algae is
minimal, so I'll hold off. I know as soon as I release something in
there, I'll need to dredge the tank to remove them ;~). Right now, in
there I have a pair of Angelfish corralling about 80 fry between them.
Even algae crews can interfere with newborns, so it's nice to give the
parents some tranquility.

NetMax

[Cris]

I had a pair some time ago that didn't do well in my community tank.
They never ate much algae, the male harrassed the female to death then
died himself. I think the temp was too high for them at 77-80 in the
summer. They are a killifish which will languish at those temps.
It's very important that they have vegetables in their diet. They
don't eat just any algae, it has to be nice green hairy algae.

Cris

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:26:14 -0500, "Nemo" > wrote:

>I got a pair of these a couple of says ago. They seem to be surface fish
>that lazy around all day and all night. For a fish that is supposed to rival
>the SAE, I have not seen them touch any algae yet. The male is a little
>short with the female. They change colour tike a chameleon! But otherwise,
>not very interesting.
>
>Could be my temp at 79-80 oF. They like cooler temperatures.
>

[Nemo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...

> Mine hang around the underbrush like Kribs. I haven't made up my mind on
> how effective they are as algae eaters yet. They are hard to buy around
> here, and I have a short but loyal waiting list of buyers for them.

They don't move much, do they?! Something tells me they're not happy with
me.
I got mine at Big Al in Kanata centrum ;).

Cheers

[NetMax]

"Nemo" > wrote in message
...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Mine hang around the underbrush like Kribs. I haven't made up my
mind on
> > how effective they are as algae eaters yet. They are hard to buy
around
> > here, and I have a short but loyal waiting list of buyers for them.
>
> They don't move much, do they?! Something tells me they're not happy
with
> me.
> I got mine at Big Al in Kanata centrum ;).

Yes, I know the chap who manages that outlet (very nice fellow). Big
Al's is my competitor now, so when we meet, we still talk fish, but
sharing names of suppliers is off the table ;~)

NetMax

> Cheers
>
>

[Polarhound]

NetMax wrote:

> Yes, I know the chap who manages that outlet (very nice fellow). Big
> Al's is my competitor now, so when we meet, we still talk fish, but
> sharing names of suppliers is off the table ;~)

What about people like me, who is in a position to see who EVERYONE gets
their fish, live rock, etc. from? :)

[NetMax]

"Polarhound" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
> > Yes, I know the chap who manages that outlet (very nice fellow). Big
> > Al's is my competitor now, so when we meet, we still talk fish, but
> > sharing names of suppliers is off the table ;~)
>
> What about people like me, who is in a position to see who EVERYONE
gets
> their fish, live rock, etc. from? :)

How did you get that position? Actually, there are only so many
suppliers stationed in and servicing North America, and they are in the
phone books. The off-shore guys vary in regards to their consistency, so
we usually let the trans-shippers work as middlemen. The real time
savings are in knowing who has what in good quality for a good price. I
spend about 2 hours a week pouring over breeder sheets. A rewarding part
of my job is when someone laments that they can't locate a certain fish,
and a few days later, and I'm calling them to tell them that they have
arrived :o). I don't take deposits figuring if it's unusual, I can sell
it to someone else, and if I can't, I don't mind having a few lesser
known varieties around.

NetMax

[bannor]

>How did you get that position? Actually, there are only so many
>suppliers stationed in and servicing North America, and they are in the
>phone books. The off-shore guys vary in regards to their consistency, so
>we usually let the trans-shippers work as middlemen. The real time
>savings are in knowing who has what in good quality for a good price. I
>spend about 2 hours a week pouring over breeder sheets. A rewarding part
>of my job is when someone laments that they can't locate a certain fish,
>and a few days later, and I'm calling them to tell them that they have
>arrived :o). I don't take deposits figuring if it's unusual, I can sell
>it to someone else, and if I can't, I don't mind having a few lesser
>known varieties around.
>NetMax

Hi Netmax...

I had attempted to send you a message to your email account but it
probably got canned as spam...

Can you give me any links or contact information on life fish and
plant suppliers, wholesale only?

I am doing research for a bank loan to start a small LFS and need
contact information and pricing etc to take with me to the bank.

They seem to want quite a few details so as much information as you
can provice will be greatly appreciated.

All I really need is contact info. Actualy pricing etc I will get
directly and have them fax me quotes etc to provide to the bank.

Thanks.

[Nemo]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...

> Yes, I know the chap who manages that outlet (very nice fellow). Big
> Al's is my competitor now, so when we meet, we still talk fish, but
> sharing names of suppliers is off the table ;~)

You've got to tell me where you business is. I'd much rather buy from a pro
than from an LFS who often has the wrong info.

[Chris Palma]

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, NetMax wrote:

> Simplify as much as you can. Unless you are planning on breeding (and
> even then), 95% of your fish should be in the same water, which would
> ideally be a nice 7.2pH, 4dkH and 6dgH. All special care tanks will be a
> higher overhead, so don't take on extra work where it's not needed.
> What about your Asia-Australian tanks, or hardwater South American, or
> sof****er riverine Africans ? ;~). Keep them all in the same water.
> You can tweak with substrates or leaf litter later on.
>
> I've got about 400g set aside for plants, and I find that to be a bit
> small, but it forces me to operate efficiently by purchasing and
> marketing appropriately. If I had a lot more room, I'd get lazy about
> it. The 400g is a revolving door. Most plants are not there long
> enough to set down much in the way of roots. I doubt there is much
> business case in growing your own (other than to support niches). Farms
> do it much more efficiently.
>

From a potential customer's point of view, I agree with NetMax. When I
started my new aquarium and was testing my water, I was worried that my
local hard, alkaline water was going to severely limit my choices of
possible fish to stock. However, when I went to talk to my LFS, he
pointed out that all of his stock is kept in local tap water that he just
treats with standard tap conditioner. From my point of view, this made me
feel a lot better -- if fish were thriving in his tanks, then I thought I
had a good shot of having them do well in mine.

If I had walked into his shop and been told that he went to some lengths
to treat the water to set up the perfect conditions for each species, I
would have walked out more discouraged about my prospects for successfully
keeping the fish that I wanted in my tank.

BTW, where in Pennsylvania are you? I live in central PA, about halfway
between Pittsburgh & Philly.

--chris




NB: This email address is dead. If you would like to email me directly,
please use: cpalmaATSYMBOLastro.psu.edu

[bannor]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:18:01 -0500, Chris Palma
> wrote:
<snip>
>From a potential customer's point of view, I agree with NetMax. When I
>started my new aquarium and was testing my water, I was worried that my
>local hard, alkaline water was going to severely limit my choices of
>possible fish to stock. However, when I went to talk to my LFS, he
>pointed out that all of his stock is kept in local tap water that he just
>treats with standard tap conditioner. From my point of view, this made me
>feel a lot better -- if fish were thriving in his tanks, then I thought I
>had a good shot of having them do well in mine.
>
>If I had walked into his shop and been told that he went to some lengths
>to treat the water to set up the perfect conditions for each species, I
>would have walked out more discouraged about my prospects for successfully
>keeping the fish that I wanted in my tank.

I was planning on keeping it as simple as possible. My only planning
on the different tanks was water temp and possible softening for
Discus (which I still believe are the Kings of the trade)

I know that I can produce Discus at a lower price than $25 each and
still make a profit even taking into consideration culls, losses etc.

The city water where this store is located is fairly soft anyway, all
I have to remove is chloramines which I would probably have to deal
with wherever I setup shop.

As I said, this is still early in the planning stages and depends on
what my actual costs will be to get the site and supply it. It may
not happen soon though since the building is tied up in probate. IE,
the family has been fighting on who gets what and about how much it is
worth... been sitting 'empty' for almost 8 years now so I am hoping
the price reflects the amount of work needed to re-roof the buildings
and refurbish the interiors.

>BTW, where in Pennsylvania are you? I live in central PA, about halfway
>between Pittsburgh & Philly.
>--chris


Scranton / Wilkes-Barre, Upper north east part of the state.

[NetMax]

"Nemo" > wrote in message
...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Yes, I know the chap who manages that outlet (very nice fellow). Big
> > Al's is my competitor now, so when we meet, we still talk fish, but
> > sharing names of suppliers is off the table ;~)
>
> You've got to tell me where you business is. I'd much rather buy from a
pro
> than from an LFS who often has the wrong info.

If you know Ottawa, then you should have no problem finding us. We are
at the corner of Greenbank and Strandherd (take the Fallowfield exit off
the 416). I'm the one wearing the beard, but I'm only there 3 days a
week, and often on odd projects (today I built a indoor overground 250g
pond).

I've started a mailing list to let regular customers know what
fish/plants I'm ordering and what product promotions are being planned.
It seems to be well received because I get a small crowd on evenings when
a particularly interesting fish order comes in, and also on the day after
a plant order comes in (takes me at least a day to unpack the plant
shipments). Put yourself on the mailing list, and introduce yourself if
you like. Some ppl from the newsgroup do, some don't and just like to
come and check it out (that's kewl too).

This is a relatively quiet week for livestock, mostly standard
re-stocking and a box of Koi (to go in the pond I just built). The Koi
are interesting in that they come with paperwork certifying them
virus-free. By getting them early for pond season, I'll be able to check
them out myself.

I do have got some Phoenix Yellow discus coming Thursday. I earlier had
some from the same batch, so I know these are real eye-catchers. A local
breeder re-stocked me with an assortment of Angels (all Black veiltail
variants). My Altums haven't sold yet so I might take these home myself
;~). My Nyereis are coming into color, and every female is packing (and
selling).

I'm getting more plants than fish this week (which is happening more &
more often, but that's what happens when you give a hobbyist several
thick plant catalogues to order from). I'm like a kid in a candy store.
I'm going to try every one, and I'm going through a lot of Cryptocorne,
Aponogeton, Nyphoides and Echinodorous right now. If you visit, the Red
Tiger Lotus in the plant show tank is flowering again. The flower comes
about 6" above the water, and closes when it gets light (night-bloomer).
I probably forgetting lots of stuff as I have 4 deliveries this week, but
we got in a huge order of aquariums, so I've been re-arranging the store
to fit them all (making my corridors so narrow, I might be in violation
of fire-code soon), but at least I sold the biggest one, a 175g bowfront
*sweet tank* (never even uncrated it) *whew*.

cheers
NetMax

[bannor]

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:23:20 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:
<snip>
><snipped Canadian wholesalers>
>
>Segrest Farms in Florida, ask for Julie 1-800-237-9317 EXT. 249. She
>might be able to help you.
>
<snip>
>
>> Well, I am not intending to compete with wholesalers... just baiscally
>> looking for suppliers.
>
>Understood. Wholesalers don't sell to the public. You want to compete
>with retailers.

<snip>
>Simplify as much as you can.

That is the most important statement I have ever seen regarding an
attempt to setup an LFS!

>I've got about 400g set aside for plants, and I find that to be a bit
>small, but it forces me to operate efficiently by purchasing and
>marketing appropriately. If I had a lot more room, I'd get lazy about
>it. The 400g is a revolving door. Most plants are not there long
>enough to set down much in the way of roots. I doubt there is much
>business case in growing your own (other than to support niches). Farms
>do it much more efficiently.

I was think at least that size... however, it seems that I may have
been a little pre-mature in even investigating the issue... the Bank
ok'd about $125k to get the business going... not too sure that will
be enough.

I got my second response from the 'family' that owns the building in
question. This is a 3 bedroom 1,500 sq ft home with an out-buiolding
of approx 800 sq ft that was originally used for the 'fish store' and
then the store was moved into the home with the out-building being
converted to 'grow-out' tanks and storage only. This out-building is
a simple block wall with an aluminum roof... think garage. The roof
on the home has not been re-done for over 20 years and the home has
been vacant for the last 9 according to court documents... anyway, I
would have to do major repairs to the roof of the home, put in a new
parking lot (only small gravel lot now, and badly overgrown), the roof
on the out-building has fallen in on the back side (where I couldn't
see it from the road)... anyway, the repairs alone would come close to
$50k, they want over $130k for the house and property and $30k for the
contents (all the fish tanks etc)... which makes it a no-brainer...
meaning, no sale. That's apparently why the property has been tied up
soo long, each son (3) and the one daughter believe that they each
deserve $30-40k each for a business that has been dead for over 9
years... I had thought it was only 8, but court says almost 10 total,
9 years and 8 months...

Sooo anyway, even with what I have set aside and the loan, I would
still be about 30k shy of getting the property and would be opening a
store with absolutely no stock and no guarantee on the water
worthiness of all the tanks...

>> Just your average LFS with an emphasis on service.
>
>Service has a high front end cost. The last 3 hours of my work today was
>spent answering customer questions on a variety of aquarium topics, and
>then I realized that during that period I sold nothing. I provided free
>advice for 3 hours. This later usually translates into very loyal repeat
>business, but profitability comes from selling at the best margins for
>the least amount of effort, and the aquarium trade takes a lot of effort
>to service properly, jmho.

Yep, I know... service/support costs money, but that's the kind of guy
I am... I don't want to get rich... I just need to be able to continue
to make my mortgage payments, any payments on the business and have
enough left over to be able to eat decently, and I am NOT talking
about eating steak dinners all the time.

>> Anyway, the bank wants numbers. Numbers on cost of setup, numbers on
>> cost of perishable/saleable supplies etc. That is what I am
>> attempting to build up right now. These numbers don't have to be set
>> in stone, but should be fairly close if at all possible. I have about
>> 10-15k set aside in personal funds to add to whatever they will agree
>> to loan out to me.
>
>The only perishibles (besides the fish ;~) are medications, food and test
>kits. Your suppliers should be able to keep you in non-expired product
>as long as you don't over-order poor sellers.

Yeah, this is the sort of thing / promise etc I need to get from the
suppliers... still doing the research because this is still what I
want to do... just not at the location I was hoping to use!

And thanks again, for the info you have provided... I will be
contacting those people mentioned as well as any others that I can get
information on/from.

I like the look of the DAS systems, but I don't think I can afford
them... I will probably end up doing my own, tripple, central
filtration system... starting with one group of tanks in the normal
6.8-7.2 ph range with 8-10 dKh since that is the local water levels,
at least in the major area around here... some wells are harder, (like
mine), and some are softer... city water depends on the local city
water department and still changes with the seasons, winter and spring
being the softest water with the lower ph ranges, summer it sort of
dries up a little, the ph and hardness rises, fall is the worst until
the late fall and early winter rains come again.

Once the business is going well enough to prove that I can make the
payments, I may be able to get another loan to expand into Salt water
systems if I get brave enough..

For other things, like stands and hoods, I have 5 different friends
that are cabinet makers... these guys, all 5, have offered to build
hoods and stands and put them on consignment in the store. 4 of the 5
have all the tools, saws, sanders, etc in their garages and are all in
business for themselves as contractors. These guys can turn out a
combo with a hood and stand in under 4 days (taking time for sealants
and stains etc to cure). Another friend has his own welding company
and can do the metal stands if people want them.

Anyway, Thank YOU NetMax, for your suggestions and help etc... I can't
ever say thanks enough... believe me. This research has been fun and
looks to still be an education!

[NetMax]

"bannor" <bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block> wrote in
message ...
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:23:20 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
> <snip>

> Anyway, Thank YOU NetMax, for your suggestions and help etc... I can't
> ever say thanks enough... believe me. This research has been fun and
> looks to still be an education!

You're very welcome. I hope I hit the right balance between outlining
some economic issues, without completely discouraging you. I'm sorry
your prospective site didn't work out, but better to have found out
sooner than later.

When I've thought of doing this myself, I considered a hobby farm, on a
river, with an insulated structure which was in relatively close
proximity to a ploughed roadway, and to the river. The lot would need to
be serviced by well/septic (municipal supply for a lot on water would be
too expensive). I'd be pulling most of my water from the river at a
continuous low flow rate through UV filters. Ideally the river would
have enough current so that I could submerge a direct-coupled
water-current driven water pump under the dock, pumping up to water
storage tanks which would need to be close to waterline to keep head
pressure low. I've never seen a direct coupled water-driven water pump,
but I like inventing things ;~). Other than for this application (or
maybe watering gardens), it doesn't have much use, as the head pressure
and/or flow rate would be very low, but for a continuous water changing
system, it should work fine.

I don't think that a river source of water would have any environmental
impact, especially if your waste water went into a field of weeping tiles
(would support a huge vegetable garden :o) (always minimizing your costs,
as veggies feed you and your fish).

Since the combination of river water and well water should give you every
fish-water recipe you need, and very little needs to be pumped
well-water, this minimizes your electrical operating costs to part-time
well pump and operating the UV lights (and any secondary pumps needed to
get the water above and to the fish tanks). Heating the fish-room would
probably be by pelleted wood stove (at least for my part of the world).
This is easy to have run continuously to a thermostat by just filling the
hopper. So this makes for a centralized heating system (wood stove), I'd
centralize my lighting (overhead) with inspection lights from the ceiling
(like those used for auto repair), and for filtration, a rotary pump
running air to home-made air-driven sponge filters, one to a tank.

I've skipped lots of details, like using 2 holding tanks, outside tank
uses ambient air to heat cold river water, inside tank for mixing,
diverting and is then heated by indoor ambient (or SS pipes, or roof PVC
tubes) for tank filling and w/c's, - or using custom made plywood or
concrete tanks etc etc (I have trouble shutting up sometimes ;~) What
you might find is that when you are finished, your fish-room might not
have anything in common with your home aquarium, or anything at your LFS
(except for the fish ;~).

I suggest that you pick up a book on the construction of autonomous
housing, and scale the fundaments on water handling, energy conservation
and environmental controls to your operation. There are lots of
money-saving concepts which you can easily be applied to a fish-room, if
you are at the correct latitude (for average outdoor temperatures and
radiant exposure). I mention this because I think that Pennsylvania
could be quite favourable (at least compared to here, Ottawa Canada).

Another alternative is to locate in an old dirty industrial zone, low
taxes, lots of water & electricity, close to airport/bus depots and main
highways (transport costs and shipping times are significant concerns to
this business). Rack & stack tanks to the ceiling. Use centralized
everything almost everywhere and start a trans-shipping business. This
puts you into the network of supplier/buyers (wholesalers) and would
provide you with a veritable cornucopia of exotic fish for re-sale or
breeding stock. However, note that anyone who has gone down this road,
has a) almost completely stopped breeding any fish and b) does not sell
to consumers, so that should tell you something about the economics of
the trade (and I don't think that's your direction). Also consider what
component your walk-in traffic has in your business plan, when choosing a
spot in rural, suburban or industrial locations (I'd go rural edge of
suburbia within 15 minutes of major thoroughfares myself), and (IMHO),
you really need to work a niche as simply as possible to compete.

cheers
NetMax

[bannor]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:02:08 -0500, "NetMax"
> wrote:
>"bannor" <bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block> wrote in
>message ...
>> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:23:20 -0500, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>> <snip>
>> Anyway, Thank YOU NetMax, for your suggestions and help etc... I can't
>> ever say thanks enough... believe me. This research has been fun and
>> looks to still be an education!
>
>You're very welcome. I hope I hit the right balance between outlining
>some economic issues, without completely discouraging you. I'm sorry
>your prospective site didn't work out, but better to have found out
>sooner than later.
>
>When I've thought of doing this myself, I considered a hobby farm, on a
>river, with an insulated structure which was in relatively close
>proximity to a ploughed roadway, and to the river. The lot would need to
>be serviced by well/septic (municipal supply for a lot on water would be
>too expensive). I'd be pulling most of my water from the river at a
>continuous low flow rate through UV filters. Ideally the river would
>have enough current so that I could submerge a direct-coupled
>water-current driven water pump under the dock, pumping up to water
>storage tanks which would need to be close to waterline to keep head
>pressure low. I've never seen a direct coupled water-driven water pump,
>but I like inventing things ;~). Other than for this application (or
>maybe watering gardens), it doesn't have much use, as the head pressure
>and/or flow rate would be very low, but for a continuous water changing
>system, it should work fine.
>
>I don't think that a river source of water would have any environmental
>impact, especially if your waste water went into a field of weeping tiles
>(would support a huge vegetable garden :o) (always minimizing your costs,
>as veggies feed you and your fish).
>
>Since the combination of river water and well water should give you every
>fish-water recipe you need, and very little needs to be pumped
>well-water, this minimizes your electrical operating costs to part-time
>well pump and operating the UV lights (and any secondary pumps needed to
>get the water above and to the fish tanks). Heating the fish-room would
>probably be by pelleted wood stove (at least for my part of the world).
>This is easy to have run continuously to a thermostat by just filling the
>hopper. So this makes for a centralized heating system (wood stove), I'd
>centralize my lighting (overhead) with inspection lights from the ceiling
>(like those used for auto repair), and for filtration, a rotary pump
>running air to home-made air-driven sponge filters, one to a tank.
>
>I've skipped lots of details, like using 2 holding tanks, outside tank
>uses ambient air to heat cold river water, inside tank for mixing,
>diverting and is then heated by indoor ambient (or SS pipes, or roof PVC
>tubes) for tank filling and w/c's, - or using custom made plywood or
>concrete tanks etc etc (I have trouble shutting up sometimes ;~) What
>you might find is that when you are finished, your fish-room might not
>have anything in common with your home aquarium, or anything at your LFS
>(except for the fish ;~).
>
>I suggest that you pick up a book on the construction of autonomous
>housing, and scale the fundaments on water handling, energy conservation
>and environmental controls to your operation. There are lots of
>money-saving concepts which you can easily be applied to a fish-room, if
>you are at the correct latitude (for average outdoor temperatures and
>radiant exposure). I mention this because I think that Pennsylvania
>could be quite favourable (at least compared to here, Ottawa Canada).
>
>Another alternative is to locate in an old dirty industrial zone, low
>taxes, lots of water & electricity, close to airport/bus depots and main
>highways (transport costs and shipping times are significant concerns to
>this business). Rack & stack tanks to the ceiling. Use centralized
>everything almost everywhere and start a trans-shipping business. This
>puts you into the network of supplier/buyers (wholesalers) and would
>provide you with a veritable cornucopia of exotic fish for re-sale or
>breeding stock. However, note that anyone who has gone down this road,
>has a) almost completely stopped breeding any fish and b) does not sell
>to consumers, so that should tell you something about the economics of
>the trade (and I don't think that's your direction). Also consider what
>component your walk-in traffic has in your business plan, when choosing a
>spot in rural, suburban or industrial locations (I'd go rural edge of
>suburbia within 15 minutes of major thoroughfares myself), and (IMHO),
>you really need to work a niche as simply as possible to compete.
>
>cheers
>NetMax


Wow... I mean WOW... you did it again... as far as I am concerned you
can 'chat' away all you want... those are some really good ideas!

Obviously you have thought about this with serious consideration... as
to the local temps here... where I am, right in the Pocono mountains,
the winters are too cold to use ambient outside air to warm water
enough to really make a difference.

I have been planning on moving south for a few years, soon to turn
into a decade... maybe once I get a few hundred miles farther south I
could consider something along the lines you suggest with the river
water/well water and outside holding tanks...

I guess it is all back to the dreaming stage unless these guys come
down on the price for their property... heck, even the real estate
agent, THEIR real estate agent, said they were nuts asking so much for
the property since they are not maintaining it. they are about 50k
above the local housing values and the house is smaller than the rest
in the neighborhood etc... oh well.. I will keep plugging along and
add some more notes to my research files for when I can find the right
location.

[Happy'Cam'per]

Hey Bannor
FWIW

If you're going large scale you can always get the local municipality
involved, have them fund your water and electricity costs. There is a chap
near to where I live that has a setup like this, he's a breeder and has over
1000 tanks. Our electricity supplier (Eskom) funds all the costs (when he
approached them about this he used the "all in the name of conservation"
line). Bigger companies are usually more than willing to support projects in
"the name on conservation". Take petroleum companies for example (hint),
they're forever getting in the crap over environmental issues, so when
someone approaches them with a conservation plan they usually bite pretty
quickly, it makes them look good (yes Mr. GreenPeace officer, we're sorry
about the countless rural communities we've destroyed in Africa, BUT, we
fund all of these groovy nature conservation projects). It looks very good
on their portfolio.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**


"bannor" <bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:02:08 -0500, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
> >"bannor" <bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block> wrote in
> >message ...
> >> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:23:20 -0500, "NetMax"
> >> > wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >> Anyway, Thank YOU NetMax, for your suggestions and help etc... I can't
> >> ever say thanks enough... believe me. This research has been fun and
> >> looks to still be an education!
> >
> >You're very welcome. I hope I hit the right balance between outlining
> >some economic issues, without completely discouraging you. I'm sorry
> >your prospective site didn't work out, but better to have found out
> >sooner than later.
> >
> >When I've thought of doing this myself, I considered a hobby farm, on a
> >river, with an insulated structure which was in relatively close
> >proximity to a ploughed roadway, and to the river. The lot would need to
> >be serviced by well/septic (municipal supply for a lot on water would be
> >too expensive). I'd be pulling most of my water from the river at a
> >continuous low flow rate through UV filters. Ideally the river would
> >have enough current so that I could submerge a direct-coupled
> >water-current driven water pump under the dock, pumping up to water
> >storage tanks which would need to be close to waterline to keep head
> >pressure low. I've never seen a direct coupled water-driven water pump,
> >but I like inventing things ;~). Other than for this application (or
> >maybe watering gardens), it doesn't have much use, as the head pressure
> >and/or flow rate would be very low, but for a continuous water changing
> >system, it should work fine.
> >
> >I don't think that a river source of water would have any environmental
> >impact, especially if your waste water went into a field of weeping tiles
> >(would support a huge vegetable garden :o) (always minimizing your costs,
> >as veggies feed you and your fish).
> >
> >Since the combination of river water and well water should give you every
> >fish-water recipe you need, and very little needs to be pumped
> >well-water, this minimizes your electrical operating costs to part-time
> >well pump and operating the UV lights (and any secondary pumps needed to
> >get the water above and to the fish tanks). Heating the fish-room would
> >probably be by pelleted wood stove (at least for my part of the world).
> >This is easy to have run continuously to a thermostat by just filling the
> >hopper. So this makes for a centralized heating system (wood stove), I'd
> >centralize my lighting (overhead) with inspection lights from the ceiling
> >(like those used for auto repair), and for filtration, a rotary pump
> >running air to home-made air-driven sponge filters, one to a tank.
> >
> >I've skipped lots of details, like using 2 holding tanks, outside tank
> >uses ambient air to heat cold river water, inside tank for mixing,
> >diverting and is then heated by indoor ambient (or SS pipes, or roof PVC
> >tubes) for tank filling and w/c's, - or using custom made plywood or
> >concrete tanks etc etc (I have trouble shutting up sometimes ;~) What
> >you might find is that when you are finished, your fish-room might not
> >have anything in common with your home aquarium, or anything at your LFS
> >(except for the fish ;~).
> >
> >I suggest that you pick up a book on the construction of autonomous
> >housing, and scale the fundaments on water handling, energy conservation
> >and environmental controls to your operation. There are lots of
> >money-saving concepts which you can easily be applied to a fish-room, if
> >you are at the correct latitude (for average outdoor temperatures and
> >radiant exposure). I mention this because I think that Pennsylvania
> >could be quite favourable (at least compared to here, Ottawa Canada).
> >
> >Another alternative is to locate in an old dirty industrial zone, low
> >taxes, lots of water & electricity, close to airport/bus depots and main
> >highways (transport costs and shipping times are significant concerns to
> >this business). Rack & stack tanks to the ceiling. Use centralized
> >everything almost everywhere and start a trans-shipping business. This
> >puts you into the network of supplier/buyers (wholesalers) and would
> >provide you with a veritable cornucopia of exotic fish for re-sale or
> >breeding stock. However, note that anyone who has gone down this road,
> >has a) almost completely stopped breeding any fish and b) does not sell
> >to consumers, so that should tell you something about the economics of
> >the trade (and I don't think that's your direction). Also consider what
> >component your walk-in traffic has in your business plan, when choosing a
> >spot in rural, suburban or industrial locations (I'd go rural edge of
> >suburbia within 15 minutes of major thoroughfares myself), and (IMHO),
> >you really need to work a niche as simply as possible to compete.
> >
> >cheers
> >NetMax
>
>
> Wow... I mean WOW... you did it again... as far as I am concerned you
> can 'chat' away all you want... those are some really good ideas!
>
> Obviously you have thought about this with serious consideration... as
> to the local temps here... where I am, right in the Pocono mountains,
> the winters are too cold to use ambient outside air to warm water
> enough to really make a difference.
>
> I have been planning on moving south for a few years, soon to turn
> into a decade... maybe once I get a few hundred miles farther south I
> could consider something along the lines you suggest with the river
> water/well water and outside holding tanks...
>
> I guess it is all back to the dreaming stage unless these guys come
> down on the price for their property... heck, even the real estate
> agent, THEIR real estate agent, said they were nuts asking so much for
> the property since they are not maintaining it. they are about 50k
> above the local housing values and the house is smaller than the rest
> in the neighborhood etc... oh well.. I will keep plugging along and
> add some more notes to my research files for when I can find the right
> location.
>

[bannor]

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:41:46 +0200, "Happy'Cam'per" > wrote:

>Hey Bannor
>FWIW
>
>If you're going large scale you can always get the local municipality
>involved, have them fund your water and electricity costs. There is a chap
>near to where I live that has a setup like this, he's a breeder and has over
>1000 tanks. Our electricity supplier (Eskom) funds all the costs (when he
>approached them about this he used the "all in the name of conservation"
>line). Bigger companies are usually more than willing to support projects in
>"the name on conservation". Take petroleum companies for example (hint),
>they're forever getting in the crap over environmental issues, so when
>someone approaches them with a conservation plan they usually bite pretty
>quickly, it makes them look good (yes Mr. GreenPeace officer, we're sorry
>about the countless rural communities we've destroyed in Africa, BUT, we
>fund all of these groovy nature conservation projects). It looks very good
>on their portfolio.

You know, that's a damn good idea too!

I will keep that in mind... would have to word it properly... like
suggest that I could be helping to save some lake tangeneka fish from
being completely wiped out or something... would just have to make
sure that I kept those fish in 'stock' so to speak...

Geeze... you go to the net, and just ask for a lil' help and boy what
do you get in return!

Now, of course, my mind is spinning again.. which probably means that
I won't be getting any sleep tonight as I dream of this and dream of
that plan to try to get this real dream of a LFS actually on it's
feet!

[Happy'Cam'per]

> I won't be getting any sleep tonight as I dream of this and dream of
> that plan to try to get this real dream of a LFS actually on it's
> feet!

Build it, and they will come...
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**