Cycling woes

[David McDermott]

Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to be
going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today (Tuesday).
The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night was around 1.0
ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change on Saturday
(approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to try to help the
poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps dropping a couple of
degrees at night.

I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop. What
could be wrong? I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly controversial
decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water changes to dilute
the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the fish as much as the
ammonia? I've already pretty much conceded that the fish will die, they
really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my decorations). I have
reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so I know there is none
being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being impatient? The only real
difference I can think of between this situation and my past experience is
that the temperature may have been slightly warmer in my other tank setup -
I can't remember exactly, although I have never had a heated tank so the
difference would be minimal.

I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on here.
Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting just by
reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an expert and
able to offer my help to others in this group!

[[email protected]]

Hi David,

I'm new here but I'm going to jump right in. Your problem is you
strarted with to many fish. A ten gallon tank is small and goldfish
produce a lot of waste. One gold fish would have been more appropriate.


Here are some tips for cycling your tank.

1. Be patient! It can sometimes take up to 8 weeks for a tank to cycle.
2. Do not overfeed. Looks like your already on the right track here.
3. Do NOT do any water changes until the tank is fully cycled.

One last comment, goldfish are really a hit of miss. This includes the
fancy tails as well as the common feeder. Sometime they live forever,
sometimes they die right off.

[NoSpam]

David McDermott wrote:
> Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to be
> going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
> goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today (Tuesday).
> The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night was around 1.0
> ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change on Saturday
> (approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to try to help the
> poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps dropping a couple of
> degrees at night.
>
> I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
> experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop. What
> could be wrong? I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly controversial
> decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water changes to dilute
> the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the fish as much as the
> ammonia? I've already pretty much conceded that the fish will die, they
> really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my decorations). I have
> reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so I know there is none
> being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being impatient? The only real
> difference I can think of between this situation and my past experience is
> that the temperature may have been slightly warmer in my other tank setup -
> I can't remember exactly, although I have never had a heated tank so the
> difference would be minimal.
>
> I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on here.
> Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting just by
> reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an expert and
> able to offer my help to others in this group!
>
>
The ammonia levels can take up to 20 days to peak and drop off. Then you
have the nitrite level to contend with. They usually start to peak after
the ammonia drops off, so from 20 - 40 days you get the peak and drop
for nitrites. Here's a link to a rather brief, but good explanation:
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

[Altum]

David McDermott wrote:
> Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to be
> going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
> goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today (Tuesday).
> The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night was around 1.0
> ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change on Saturday
> (approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to try to help the
> poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps dropping a couple of
> degrees at night.
>
> I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
> experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop. What
> could be wrong? I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly controversial
> decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water changes to dilute
> the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the fish as much as the
> ammonia? I've already pretty much conceded that the fish will die, they
> really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my decorations). I have
> reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so I know there is none
> being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being impatient? The only real
> difference I can think of between this situation and my past experience is
> that the temperature may have been slightly warmer in my other tank setup -
> I can't remember exactly, although I have never had a heated tank so the
> difference would be minimal.
>
> I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on here.
> Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting just by
> reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an expert and
> able to offer my help to others in this group!

Have you tried to cycle with goldfish before? You have too many
goldfish to cycle a 10 gallon tank. (Or even to live there once they
start growing well.) I would have cycled with only one goldfish because
they put out so much ammonia and waste. Heat does increase the growth
rate of bacteria, but they do fine at 70F.

Generally, fresh water is NOT as stressful as ammonia. (If tank and tap
are reasonably matched, dechlorinated fresh water is not stressful at
all.) However, during a cycle when ammonia levels are high, a
moderately sized water change with alkaline tapwater can raise tank pH
and make the remaining ammonia more toxic. Sometimes tap water pH
changes after aerating overnight so try that if tank and tap don't match.

Stop adding the Cycle. It doesn't work very well and if you use it more
than once, it seems to make tanks cycle more slowly. (Bacterial
nutrients in the bottle maybe?) If you can find/afford it, BioSpira is
supposed to be a much better product.

The lethargy sounds like nitrite poisoning. Have you tested for
nitrites yet?

Add 1 teaspoon salt/gallon to the tank to help prevent nitrite poisoning
and help your fish recover from any diseases that might be causing the
lethargy. When you change water, you will need to add 1 tsp salt/gallon
to replacement water as well. I would also add a dose of Aquarisol
(copper). I find that new goldfish often have parasites that can be
killed by copper.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[David McDermott]

I am surprised to hear that I have too many fish. I have cycled a tank with
one small fantail before and it went reasonably well. I have always lived
by the "one inch of fish per gallon" rule and I am certainly under that
limit now, probably in the 4-5 inch range for my 10 gallon tank. I have not
tested for nitrite yet - I didn't think there would be much point yet. My
reasoning is that continually rising ammonia levels should be evidence that
nitrite producing bacteria have not yet colonized the tank, is that correct?

I have gotten several recommendations for BioSpira over Cycle, and I will
switch to that. Also I have been putting salt in the aquarium. Do I need
to do this repeatedly or just one initial dose, then replace with water
changes?

Assuming the fish die (let's hope not but I must prepare for the worst) will
the tank have enough organic material to finish the cycle itself or will I
immediately need to add more fish? If I could let the cycle finish on its
own I would not have to put anymore fish through the stress.

Thanks again for all the help!

"Altum" > wrote in message
et...
> David McDermott wrote:
>> Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to
>> be going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
>> goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today
>> (Tuesday). The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night
>> was around 1.0 ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change
>> on Saturday (approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to
>> try to help the poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps
>> dropping a couple of degrees at night.
>>
>> I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
>> experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop.
>> What could be wrong? I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly
>> controversial decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water
>> changes to dilute the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the
>> fish as much as the ammonia? I've already pretty much conceded that the
>> fish will die, they really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my
>> decorations). I have reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so
>> I know there is none being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being
>> impatient? The only real difference I can think of between this
>> situation and my past experience is that the temperature may have been
>> slightly warmer in my other tank setup - I can't remember exactly,
>> although I have never had a heated tank so the difference would be
>> minimal.
>>
>> I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on
>> here. Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting
>> just by reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an
>> expert and able to offer my help to others in this group!
>
> Have you tried to cycle with goldfish before? You have too many goldfish
> to cycle a 10 gallon tank. (Or even to live there once they start growing
> well.) I would have cycled with only one goldfish because they put out so
> much ammonia and waste. Heat does increase the growth rate of bacteria,
> but they do fine at 70F.
>
> Generally, fresh water is NOT as stressful as ammonia. (If tank and tap
> are reasonably matched, dechlorinated fresh water is not stressful at
> all.) However, during a cycle when ammonia levels are high, a moderately
> sized water change with alkaline tapwater can raise tank pH and make the
> remaining ammonia more toxic. Sometimes tap water pH changes after
> aerating overnight so try that if tank and tap don't match.
>
> Stop adding the Cycle. It doesn't work very well and if you use it more
> than once, it seems to make tanks cycle more slowly. (Bacterial nutrients
> in the bottle maybe?) If you can find/afford it, BioSpira is supposed to
> be a much better product.
>
> The lethargy sounds like nitrite poisoning. Have you tested for nitrites
> yet?
>
> Add 1 teaspoon salt/gallon to the tank to help prevent nitrite poisoning
> and help your fish recover from any diseases that might be causing the
> lethargy. When you change water, you will need to add 1 tsp salt/gallon
> to replacement water as well. I would also add a dose of Aquarisol
> (copper). I find that new goldfish often have parasites that can be
> killed by copper.
>
> --
> Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
> Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[David McDermott]

RE: adding copper: the last time I was at the pet store the worker told me
it is common to just toss a penny in the tank. I am extremely skeptical of
this (and have not yet done so) but does anyone know if it is safe and/or
beneficial?

"Altum" > wrote in message
et...
> David McDermott wrote:
>> Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to
>> be going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
>> goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today
>> (Tuesday). The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night
>> was around 1.0 ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change
>> on Saturday (approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to
>> try to help the poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps
>> dropping a couple of degrees at night.
>>
>> I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
>> experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop.
>> What could be wrong? I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly
>> controversial decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water
>> changes to dilute the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the
>> fish as much as the ammonia? I've already pretty much conceded that the
>> fish will die, they really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my
>> decorations). I have reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so
>> I know there is none being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being
>> impatient? The only real difference I can think of between this
>> situation and my past experience is that the temperature may have been
>> slightly warmer in my other tank setup - I can't remember exactly,
>> although I have never had a heated tank so the difference would be
>> minimal.
>>
>> I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on
>> here. Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting
>> just by reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an
>> expert and able to offer my help to others in this group!
>
> Have you tried to cycle with goldfish before? You have too many goldfish
> to cycle a 10 gallon tank. (Or even to live there once they start growing
> well.) I would have cycled with only one goldfish because they put out so
> much ammonia and waste. Heat does increase the growth rate of bacteria,
> but they do fine at 70F.
>
> Generally, fresh water is NOT as stressful as ammonia. (If tank and tap
> are reasonably matched, dechlorinated fresh water is not stressful at
> all.) However, during a cycle when ammonia levels are high, a moderately
> sized water change with alkaline tapwater can raise tank pH and make the
> remaining ammonia more toxic. Sometimes tap water pH changes after
> aerating overnight so try that if tank and tap don't match.
>
> Stop adding the Cycle. It doesn't work very well and if you use it more
> than once, it seems to make tanks cycle more slowly. (Bacterial nutrients
> in the bottle maybe?) If you can find/afford it, BioSpira is supposed to
> be a much better product.
>
> The lethargy sounds like nitrite poisoning. Have you tested for nitrites
> yet?
>
> Add 1 teaspoon salt/gallon to the tank to help prevent nitrite poisoning
> and help your fish recover from any diseases that might be causing the
> lethargy. When you change water, you will need to add 1 tsp salt/gallon
> to replacement water as well. I would also add a dose of Aquarisol
> (copper). I find that new goldfish often have parasites that can be
> killed by copper.
>
> --
> Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
> Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Altum]

David McDermott wrote:
> I am surprised to hear that I have too many fish. I have cycled a tank with
> one small fantail before and it went reasonably well. I have always lived
> by the "one inch of fish per gallon" rule and I am certainly under that
> limit now, probably in the 4-5 inch range for my 10 gallon tank. I have not
> tested for nitrite yet - I didn't think there would be much point yet. My
> reasoning is that continually rising ammonia levels should be evidence that
> nitrite producing bacteria have not yet colonized the tank, is that correct?

Right. One small fantail is ideal for cycling a 10 gallon tank. You
have double that so the cycle will be much harder on you and your fish.

The one inch per gallon rule of thumb is for FULL stocking in a cycled,
biologically mature tank. You must gradually stock to that level, and
generally not for at least three months. Cycling works best with one
inch of fish or less per five gallons. The "inch per gallon" rule of
thumb really only applies to small, normally shaped fish like platies,
tetras, or barbs. Fat, fancy goldfish like fantails have much more bulk
per inch of length than tetras. They require a lot more oxygen and put
out a lot more waste and ammonia so you have to stock fewer inches per
gallon. The rule completely breaks down with large fish like oscars or
mature 8" goldfish.

Nitrite and ammonia always overlap some in a cycle. As soon as the
bacteria that break down ammonia start to get established, nitrite
appears. Once you see nitrite, ammonia usually falls pretty fast.

> I have gotten several recommendations for BioSpira over Cycle, and I will
> switch to that. Also I have been putting salt in the aquarium. Do I need
> to do this repeatedly or just one initial dose, then replace with water
> changes?

You have two choices. Right now, while your water changes are not very
consistent, it's easiest to add one initial dose and replace with water
changes. Once you're on a water change schedule, you can add 2 tsp of
salt with each water change. (Assuming you're changing 1/4 of the water
this will give you about 1 tsp/gallon in the tank.)

> Assuming the fish die (let's hope not but I must prepare for the worst) will
> the tank have enough organic material to finish the cycle itself or will I
> immediately need to add more fish? If I could let the cycle finish on its
> own I would not have to put anymore fish through the stress.

You still need an ammonia source for the bacteria. I'm not good with
fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally, I'd change
enough water to drop ammonia below 0.25 ppm and add ONE new goldfish and
ONE dose of BioSpira.

> Thanks again for all the help!

You're welcome. Good luck with your fish.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Altum]

David McDermott wrote:
> RE: adding copper: the last time I was at the pet store the worker told me
> it is common to just toss a penny in the tank. I am extremely skeptical of
> this (and have not yet done so) but does anyone know if it is safe and/or
> beneficial?

How old is this guy? My dad told me about doing that decades ago. It
works, but nowadays we use a copper sulfate or chelated copper solution
like Aquarisol or CopperSafe to control the concentration better.

You also don't want copper around all the time in a tank the way you get
with a penny. It builds up in fish tissues and shortens their
lifespans. Copper will also kill desirable invertebrates like shrimp or
mystery snails.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Koi-Lo]

"David McDermott" > wrote in message
news:hkr3g.71547$P01.63102@pd7tw3no...
> Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to
> be going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
> goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today
> (Tuesday). The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night
> was around 1.0 ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change on
> Saturday (approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to try to
> help the poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps dropping a
> couple of degrees at night.

Keep doing the changes so the ammonia stays as a safe level. You have too
many GF in an uncycled tank. Also, if healthy, they will grow fast and will
soon outgrow your 10g tank.

> I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
> experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop. What
> could be wrong?

Too many fish and too little water. GF are dirty fish that eat a lot and
pass a lot of waste. It would have been better to start with one.

I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly controversial
> decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water changes to dilute
> the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the fish as much as
> the ammonia?

DILUTE the ammonia by constant partial water changes - just don't touch the
gravel or filter unless there is excess food decaying there. If so, remove
it and feed less.

I've already pretty much conceded that the fish will die, they
> really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my decorations).

Then increase the water changes and change MORE water each time.

I have
> reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so I know there is none
> being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being impatient? The only real
> difference I can think of between this situation and my past experience is
> that the temperature may have been slightly warmer in my other tank
> setup - I can't remember exactly, although I have never had a heated tank
> so the difference would be minimal.

A 30Long tank would be much better for your 3 fish.

> I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on
> here. Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting
> just by reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an
> expert and able to offer my help to others in this group!
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Aquarium FAQ are at:
http://faq.thekrib.com/
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Frank]

Altum wrote,
>I'm not good with
>fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
>ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......

Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure
ammonia is around 5ppm, which would be enough ammonia for a full tank
of fish. The ammonia only needs to be put into the tank _one_ time at
5ppm. Daily 'feeding' of ammonia may lead to what is called a 'never
ending cycle'. If the filter was seeded with squeezings from an
established filter, nitrites should show up around the 7th or 8th day
and drop to 0 somewhere between the 10th and 14th day. NitrAtes will be
quite high at this point and a 50 to 70% water change is needed to
bring the levels down enough for fish. If wanted, the *full* fish load
can be put into the tank at this time. If you are going to wait a
day/week, before adding fish, one or two drops of pure ammonia needs to
be added to the tank each day to 'feed' the now established bacteria
colony untill the fish are added............. Frank

[David McDermott]

"Frank" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Altum wrote,
>>I'm not good with
>>fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
>>ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......
>
> Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
> kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
> 14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure
> ammonia is around 5ppm, which would be enough ammonia for a full tank
> of fish. The ammonia only needs to be put into the tank _one_ time at
> 5ppm. Daily 'feeding' of ammonia may lead to what is called a 'never
> ending cycle'. If the filter was seeded with squeezings from an
> established filter, nitrites should show up around the 7th or 8th day
> and drop to 0 somewhere between the 10th and 14th day. NitrAtes will be
> quite high at this point and a 50 to 70% water change is needed to
> bring the levels down enough for fish. If wanted, the *full* fish load
> can be put into the tank at this time. If you are going to wait a
> day/week, before adding fish, one or two drops of pure ammonia needs to
> be added to the tank each day to 'feed' the now established bacteria
> colony untill the fish are added............. Frank
>

I think for my next tank I will try fishless. I have always disliked
putting the fish through the stress of a cycle, it seems unnecessarily cruel
and the worst part is there isn't much you can do to stop it.

I changed about 15% of my water again last night and tested the ammonia this
morning. It is down a bit, to about 0.75 ppm. I was hoping it would be
down even further after diluting but I guess it's still a small victory.
I'm going to do another 10 - 15% change either tonight or tomorrow. I know
all this fresh water isn't exactly good either but I always dechlorinate so
hopefully that will ease the stress a bit.

I was checking my filter last night ( a Whisper 10) and I'm a little
confused. I have asked about this filter in the newsgroup before and it was
described as having the Bio-bag and an extra foam insert meant to house the
bacteria. Well mine has no such foam insert and I assumed that the flossy
biobag that contains the carbon would house the bacteria. Does anyone else
have this filter? If so did mine for some reason ship without the foam and
should I be complaining to the pet store? The filter was sealed and
everything so I didn't suspect anything until I read some other posts.
Could this be the reason it is taking so long for the ammonia to drop?

[Frederick B. Henry Jr.]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2006-04-26, David McDermott > wrote:
>
> "Frank" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Altum wrote,
>>>I'm not good with
>>>fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
>>>ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......
>>
>> Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
>> kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
>> 14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure

[snip]

> I think for my next tank I will try fishless. I have always disliked
> putting the fish through the stress of a cycle, it seems unnecessarily cruel
> and the worst part is there isn't much you can do to stop it.
>
> I changed about 15% of my water again last night and tested the ammonia this
> morning. It is down a bit, to about 0.75 ppm. I was hoping it would be
> down even further after diluting but I guess it's still a small victory.
> I'm going to do another 10 - 15% change either tonight or tomorrow. I know
> all this fresh water isn't exactly good either but I always dechlorinate so
> hopefully that will ease the stress a bit.
>
> I was checking my filter last night ( a Whisper 10) and I'm a little
> confused. I have asked about this filter in the newsgroup before and it was
> described as having the Bio-bag and an extra foam insert meant to house the
> bacteria. Well mine has no such foam insert and I assumed that the flossy
> biobag that contains the carbon would house the bacteria. Does anyone else
> have this filter? If so did mine for some reason ship without the foam and
> should I be complaining to the pet store? The filter was sealed and
> everything so I didn't suspect anything until I read some other posts.
> Could this be the reason it is taking so long for the ammonia to drop?
>
>

I have been struggling to get a 10 gallon tank to cycle as well. Mine
contains 5 tetras and one lonely rasbora. I tried Cycle but as many of
the kindly experts here have noted, it is basically useless, and my
experience shows that it hasn't accelerated my cycle at all.

I have done 25% water changes whenever the ammonia was getting real
high, like above 2 ppm. The fish get one small meal of Tetra flakes
every day and appear very lively and healthy.

I also have a Whisper filter with a biobag and no foam insert. I assume
the bacteria will colonize the filter mesh, but I could be wrong. The
precise model is: Whisper Power Filter for 5-15 Gallon Aquariums,
Product #25798. I believe it was noted that there are a variety of
whisper models, so possibly yours and mine just lack the foam insert
filter.

In any case, I set my tank up fishless on roughly 10 March, and added
some fish two weeks later (3 neon tetras died fairly quickly, while all
the others are going strong). And finally today, YAY!, I see 0.25 ppm
of Nitrite, and ammonia about 1.5 ppm. So I will watch the ammonia and
perhaps *not* change the water, then check chemistry tommorrow to see
how high the readings are surging. In sum, my tank is *still not* fully
cycled after more than 6 weeks--but it is starting!!

Thanks to all gave me their generous advice, it has been very
informative. Hopefully your goldfish and tank will fare very well with
the fine assistance available in this group!.


Cheers,

Fred

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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:17:09 -0000, "Frederick B. Henry Jr."
> wrote:

Most snipped -----------------
>
>I also have a Whisper filter with a biobag and no foam insert. I assume
>the bacteria will colonize the filter mesh, but I could be wrong. The
>precise model is: Whisper Power Filter for 5-15 Gallon Aquariums,
>Product #25798. I believe it was noted that there are a variety of
>whisper models, so possibly yours and mine just lack the foam insert
>filter.

I've finally found the filter you are using. I was only able to locate
it at the Tetra web site, not at any of the major online fish supply
retailers or Petco. It's part of an unusual line of Whispers, a line I
have never seen before. The designation "5-15 Gallons" threw me off,
because all of the whispers on store shelves are designated in steps
of 10 gallons, not 5, ie 10-20, up to 30, 40, no 5's." Perhaps it is
being marketed specifically for bundling with aquarium kits or
something? I've discovered that the smallest of this line of Whisper
filters do not include the sponge, but rely on the "deeply etched
frame" of the biobag to grow the colony of bacteria, along with, of
course the other surfaces of your aquarium, the gravel, ornaments,
etc. This is an extremely old Whisper design, that I thought they
buried when they brought in the sponges. Whisper filters off the
shelf, I can't vouch for those that are part of a kit, beginning at
the 20 (up to 20 gallons) include the bio foam insert. And you are
going to love this - Missus Gardener just called up the steps asking
why I just screamed - you can purchase a Whisper bio-foam for the 5-15
filter for $2.79 at this link.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12736&Ntt=whisper%2010&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

Add postage and handling and you could buy a whole new filter!

more snipped ---------------

That said . . . I used Whisper filters of nearly all sizes for at
least 10 or 15 years before they added the foam inserts, and I never
had a problem with biological filtration. The sponge was a landmark
improvement for Tetra at the time it was introduced, it probably put
them back in the running against the AquaClear foam blocks and the
Marineland biowheels. I run 10 gallon tanks for fry which usually get
a sponge filter only and hospital which has a whisper 20. I am sorry
if I caused or added to any confusion for people using these 5-15
Whispers - I recently read a list of the top ten hip phrases of 2005
that need to be forgotten by the end of 2006 and near the top of the
list was "my bad". So I will do my part in eliminating that bit of
silliness from our language. "My apology" works better for me.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:17:09 -0000, "Frederick B. Henry Jr."
> wrote:
>
>In any case, I set my tank up fishless on roughly 10 March, and added
>some fish two weeks later (3 neon tetras died fairly quickly, while all
>the others are going strong). And finally today, YAY!, I see 0.25 ppm
>of Nitrite, and ammonia about 1.5 ppm. So I will watch the ammonia and
>perhaps *not* change the water, then check chemistry tommorrow to see
>how high the readings are surging. In sum, my tank is *still not* fully
>cycled after more than 6 weeks--but it is starting!!

Congratulations! It's sort of like becoming a father, eh?

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[David McDermott]

Ahhh ....that makes sense. My whisper is from a kit - serves me right for
trying to save a few bucks. I'm sure the tank could probably manage
without, but I will definitely get a spong as well. That way I won't have
to be so careful with the precious biobag since it won't be the only
bacteria home in the filter. I must say, I have been quite happy with this
kit though, it came with literally everything I needed except for this
little hitch. I have in the past avoided kits, never trusting their quality
and always assuming that I know what I need better than the guys who
assemble the kits. Now that I understand the Whisper design and I actually
know what model I have I feel much better about my decision. Although I'm
sure my fish who are currently bathing in ammonia will have a slightly
different point of view......
"Frederick B. Henry Jr." > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 2006-04-26, David McDermott > wrote:
>>
>> "Frank" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Altum wrote,
>>>>I'm not good with
>>>>fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
>>>>ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......
>>>
>>> Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
>>> kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
>>> 14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure
>
> [snip]
>
>> I think for my next tank I will try fishless. I have always disliked
>> putting the fish through the stress of a cycle, it seems unnecessarily
>> cruel
>> and the worst part is there isn't much you can do to stop it.
>>
>> I changed about 15% of my water again last night and tested the ammonia
>> this
>> morning. It is down a bit, to about 0.75 ppm. I was hoping it would be
>> down even further after diluting but I guess it's still a small victory.
>> I'm going to do another 10 - 15% change either tonight or tomorrow. I
>> know
>> all this fresh water isn't exactly good either but I always dechlorinate
>> so
>> hopefully that will ease the stress a bit.
>>
>> I was checking my filter last night ( a Whisper 10) and I'm a little
>> confused. I have asked about this filter in the newsgroup before and it
>> was
>> described as having the Bio-bag and an extra foam insert meant to house
>> the
>> bacteria. Well mine has no such foam insert and I assumed that the
>> flossy
>> biobag that contains the carbon would house the bacteria. Does anyone
>> else
>> have this filter? If so did mine for some reason ship without the foam
>> and
>> should I be complaining to the pet store? The filter was sealed and
>> everything so I didn't suspect anything until I read some other posts.
>> Could this be the reason it is taking so long for the ammonia to drop?
>>
>>
>
> I have been struggling to get a 10 gallon tank to cycle as well. Mine
> contains 5 tetras and one lonely rasbora. I tried Cycle but as many of
> the kindly experts here have noted, it is basically useless, and my
> experience shows that it hasn't accelerated my cycle at all.
>
> I have done 25% water changes whenever the ammonia was getting real
> high, like above 2 ppm. The fish get one small meal of Tetra flakes
> every day and appear very lively and healthy.
>
> I also have a Whisper filter with a biobag and no foam insert. I assume
> the bacteria will colonize the filter mesh, but I could be wrong. The
> precise model is: Whisper Power Filter for 5-15 Gallon Aquariums,
> Product #25798. I believe it was noted that there are a variety of
> whisper models, so possibly yours and mine just lack the foam insert
> filter.
>
> In any case, I set my tank up fishless on roughly 10 March, and added
> some fish two weeks later (3 neon tetras died fairly quickly, while all
> the others are going strong). And finally today, YAY!, I see 0.25 ppm
> of Nitrite, and ammonia about 1.5 ppm. So I will watch the ammonia and
> perhaps *not* change the water, then check chemistry tommorrow to see
> how high the readings are surging. In sum, my tank is *still not* fully
> cycled after more than 6 weeks--but it is starting!!
>
> Thanks to all gave me their generous advice, it has been very
> informative. Hopefully your goldfish and tank will fare very well with
> the fine assistance available in this group!.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>
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>
> --
> "Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
> --Alphonse Allais

[Altum]

David McDermott wrote:
> "Frank" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Altum wrote,
>>> I'm not good with
>>> fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
>>> ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......
>> Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
>> kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
>> 14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure
>> ammonia is around 5ppm, which would be enough ammonia for a full tank
>> of fish. The ammonia only needs to be put into the tank _one_ time at
>> 5ppm. Daily 'feeding' of ammonia may lead to what is called a 'never
>> ending cycle'. If the filter was seeded with squeezings from an
>> established filter, nitrites should show up around the 7th or 8th day
>> and drop to 0 somewhere between the 10th and 14th day. NitrAtes will be
>> quite high at this point and a 50 to 70% water change is needed to
>> bring the levels down enough for fish. If wanted, the *full* fish load
>> can be put into the tank at this time. If you are going to wait a
>> day/week, before adding fish, one or two drops of pure ammonia needs to
>> be added to the tank each day to 'feed' the now established bacteria
>> colony untill the fish are added............. Frank
>>
>
> I think for my next tank I will try fishless. I have always disliked
> putting the fish through the stress of a cycle, it seems unnecessarily cruel
> and the worst part is there isn't much you can do to stop it.
>
> I changed about 15% of my water again last night and tested the ammonia this
> morning. It is down a bit, to about 0.75 ppm. I was hoping it would be
> down even further after diluting but I guess it's still a small victory.
> I'm going to do another 10 - 15% change either tonight or tomorrow. I know
> all this fresh water isn't exactly good either but I always dechlorinate so
> hopefully that will ease the stress a bit.

You need to get past the idea that fresh water is bad for your fish.
Ammonia is FAR worse. Change 30% tonight and 30% tomorrow. The ammonia
will drop by half.

> I was checking my filter last night ( a Whisper 10) and I'm a little
> confused. I have asked about this filter in the newsgroup before and it was
> described as having the Bio-bag and an extra foam insert meant to house the
> bacteria. Well mine has no such foam insert and I assumed that the flossy
> biobag that contains the carbon would house the bacteria. Does anyone else
> have this filter? If so did mine for some reason ship without the foam and
> should I be complaining to the pet store? The filter was sealed and
> everything so I didn't suspect anything until I read some other posts.
> Could this be the reason it is taking so long for the ammonia to drop?

There's nothing magic about foam. Bacteria will grow on any tank
surface exposed to ammonia/nitrite and oxygen. Give it time.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[MEAlston]

> You need to get past the idea that fresh water is bad for your fish.
> Ammonia is FAR worse. Change 30% tonight and 30% tomorrow. The ammonia
> will drop by half.
>
>
> There's nothing magic about foam. Bacteria will grow on any tank
> surface exposed to ammonia/nitrite and oxygen. Give it time.

!!Altum is dead-on-Common sense. Like the air we breath, waiting for the
smog to go away. Fish share a common element with us...oxygen.

[Frederick B. Henry Jr.]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2006-04-26, Mister Gardener > wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:17:09 -0000, "Frederick B. Henry Jr."
> wrote:
>
> Most snipped -----------------
>>
>>I also have a Whisper filter with a biobag and no foam insert. I assume
>>the bacteria will colonize the filter mesh, but I could be wrong. The
>>precise model is: Whisper Power Filter for 5-15 Gallon Aquariums,
>>Product #25798. I believe it was noted that there are a variety of
>>whisper models, so possibly yours and mine just lack the foam insert
>>filter.
>
> I've finally found the filter you are using. I was only able to locate
> it at the Tetra web site, not at any of the major online fish supply
> retailers or Petco. It's part of an unusual line of Whispers, a line I
> have never seen before. The designation "5-15 Gallons" threw me off,
> because all of the whispers on store shelves are designated in steps
> of 10 gallons, not 5, ie 10-20, up to 30, 40, no 5's." Perhaps it is
> being marketed specifically for bundling with aquarium kits or
> something? I've discovered that the smallest of this line of Whisper
> filters do not include the sponge, but rely on the "deeply etched
> frame" of the biobag to grow the colony of bacteria, along with, of
> course the other surfaces of your aquarium, the gravel, ornaments,
> etc. This is an extremely old Whisper design, that I thought they
> buried when they brought in the sponges. Whisper filters off the
> shelf, I can't vouch for those that are part of a kit, beginning at
> the 20 (up to 20 gallons) include the bio foam insert. And you are
> going to love this - Missus Gardener just called up the steps asking
> why I just screamed - you can purchase a Whisper bio-foam for the 5-15
> filter for $2.79 at this link.
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12736&Ntt=whisper%2010&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1
>
> Add postage and handling and you could buy a whole new filter!
>
> more snipped ---------------
>
> That said . . . I used Whisper filters of nearly all sizes for at
> least 10 or 15 years before they added the foam inserts, and I never
> had a problem with biological filtration. The sponge was a landmark
> improvement for Tetra at the time it was introduced, it probably put
> them back in the running against the AquaClear foam blocks and the
> Marineland biowheels. I run 10 gallon tanks for fry which usually get
> a sponge filter only and hospital which has a whisper 20. I am sorry
> if I caused or added to any confusion for people using these 5-15
> Whispers - I recently read a list of the top ten hip phrases of 2005
> that need to be forgotten by the end of 2006 and near the top of the
> list was "my bad". So I will do my part in eliminating that bit of
> silliness from our language. "My apology" works better for me.
>
> -- Mister Gardener
> -- Pull the WEED to email me


Thanks for all the info! I think I will let the current cycle happen
and keep the whisper I have sans bio-sponge. I'm sure I will add more
tanks as I become more knowledgeable and experienced, and then try less
basic filters---mine came in a "kit" probably alot like the one David
McDermott posted about.

Cheers,

Fred
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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:14:35 GMT, "David McDermott"
> wrote:

>Ahhh ....that makes sense. My whisper is from a kit - serves me right for
>trying to save a few bucks. I'm sure the tank could probably manage
>without, but I will definitely get a spong as well. That way I won't have
>to be so careful with the precious biobag since it won't be the only
>bacteria home in the filter. I must say, I have been quite happy with this
>kit though, it came with literally everything I needed except for this
>little hitch. I have in the past avoided kits, never trusting their quality
>and always assuming that I know what I need better than the guys who
>assemble the kits. Now that I understand the Whisper design and I actually
>know what model I have I feel much better about my decision. Although I'm
>sure my fish who are currently bathing in ammonia will have a slightly
>different point of view......

I haven't taken a good look at kits since I used to throw them
together when I managed a pet store back in the days of . . .
and back then, we generally threw junk into the kits. Company policy,
not mine. I'm glad to hear that situation has improved. If this is a
ten gallon setup, I think the store could have gone the extra one or
two dollars and put in at least a real Whisper 20. I'm glad we got it
figured out, that's one less thing to keep me awake at night.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[MEAlston]

> > -- Mister Gardener
> > -- Pull the WEED to email me

Now if you could help me with the pulling business.....I've been in a
cultural cave too long I suppose!! :>\

[Frederick B. Henry Jr.]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2006-04-26, Mister Gardener > wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:17:09 -0000, "Frederick B. Henry Jr."
> wrote:
>>
>>In any case, I set my tank up fishless on roughly 10 March, and added
>>some fish two weeks later (3 neon tetras died fairly quickly, while all
>>the others are going strong). And finally today, YAY!, I see 0.25 ppm
>>of Nitrite, and ammonia about 1.5 ppm. So I will watch the ammonia and
>>perhaps *not* change the water, then check chemistry tommorrow to see
>>how high the readings are surging. In sum, my tank is *still not* fully
>>cycled after more than 6 weeks--but it is starting!!
>
> Congratulations! It's sort of like becoming a father, eh?

Yes, it is indeed exciting, especially after all the waiting, and
watching, and testing, and hoping the fish don't suffer overly or die.

I still have brown spots growing on the glass and some of the plastic
plants' leaves and small spots on gravel, which a prior poster said
would go away eventually. I hope so as they are somewhat unsightly (my
2.5 year-old daughter said they looked like "poop", heh).

Cheers,

Fred

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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:49:46 GMT, "MEAlston" >
wrote:

>
>> > -- Mister Gardener
>> > -- Pull the WEED to email me
>
>Now if you could help me with the pulling business.....I've been in a
>cultural cave too long I suppose!! :>\
>
(answered via email - MG)

[Frank]

Altum wrote,
>There's nothing magic about foam. Bacteria will grow on any tank
>surface exposed to ammonia/nitrite and oxygen. Give it time...

If I understand it right, the filter came with a mesh bag - not a
bio-bag, or foam insert. Without enough bio-media, I can see a filter
that may not be able to keep up with the fish load - if that's the
case, a little foam would indeed be "magic" ;-) ............... Frank

[Altum]

Frank wrote:
> Altum wrote,
>> There's nothing magic about foam. Bacteria will grow on any tank
>> surface exposed to ammonia/nitrite and oxygen. Give it time...
>
> If I understand it right, the filter came with a mesh bag - not a
> bio-bag, or foam insert. Without enough bio-media, I can see a filter
> that may not be able to keep up with the fish load - if that's the
> case, a little foam would indeed be "magic" ;-) ............... Frank

Hmm... I thought the original post said Whisper Bio-bag.

Don't most brand-name filters that on the market provide enough surface
area for nitrification in a moderately stocked tank? I'd be awfully
surprised if someone couldn't cycle a freshwater tank with a properly
sized standard filter.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Frederick B. Henry Jr.]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2006-04-27, Altum > wrote:
> Frank wrote:
>> Altum wrote,
>>> There's nothing magic about foam. Bacteria will grow on any tank
>>> surface exposed to ammonia/nitrite and oxygen. Give it time...
>>
>> If I understand it right, the filter came with a mesh bag - not a
>> bio-bag, or foam insert. Without enough bio-media, I can see a filter
>> that may not be able to keep up with the fish load - if that's the
>> case, a little foam would indeed be "magic" ;-) ............... Frank
>
> Hmm... I thought the original post said Whisper Bio-bag.
>

The model that came with my Tetra All-Glass Starter Aquarium kit does
have a "Bio-bag", consisting of an "Aerobic Frame", a mesh filter bag
that slips over it, and "Whisper filter carbon" inside the bag. The
instructions say that the aerobic frame is "deeply etched so as to
provide a receptive surface for aerobic bacteria." I suppose when you
need to chnage the bag you keep that colonized frame.

You guys doubtless know this routine/functionality. Just clarifying my
model.

Cheers,

Fred

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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais

[David McDermott]

Thanks everyone, for all the help. I think I have my situation figured out
now. I am going to buy a foam insert definitely but I'm not overly worried
about it any more. Quick update on my tank, I came home from work yesterday
(where this forum has been seriously impacting my productivity by the
way...) and found one of my goldfish floating. I suppose in the long run
it's a good thing, now there is just the fantail and one plain goldfish left
so that might be an easier load for the new environment to handle. I
changed about 25% water again last night and my ammonnia level is down
again. I'll test again on Friday or Saturday and I'm hoping it will start
going down on its own and if so I'll cross my fingers for a nitrite reading.

Cheers

David
"Frederick B. Henry Jr." > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 2006-04-27, Altum > wrote:
>> Frank wrote:
>>> Altum wrote,
>>>> There's nothing magic about foam. Bacteria will grow on any tank
>>>> surface exposed to ammonia/nitrite and oxygen. Give it time...
>>>
>>> If I understand it right, the filter came with a mesh bag - not a
>>> bio-bag, or foam insert. Without enough bio-media, I can see a filter
>>> that may not be able to keep up with the fish load - if that's the
>>> case, a little foam would indeed be "magic" ;-) ............... Frank
>>
>> Hmm... I thought the original post said Whisper Bio-bag.
>>
>
> The model that came with my Tetra All-Glass Starter Aquarium kit does
> have a "Bio-bag", consisting of an "Aerobic Frame", a mesh filter bag
> that slips over it, and "Whisper filter carbon" inside the bag. The
> instructions say that the aerobic frame is "deeply etched so as to
> provide a receptive surface for aerobic bacteria." I suppose when you
> need to chnage the bag you keep that colonized frame.
>
> You guys doubtless know this routine/functionality. Just clarifying my
> model.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFEULzWJXD4LJUXJmMRAoGmAJ9e1mrTVzqf+i+VvYJhsQ DUdMKKDgCfUotY
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> =KIi6
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>
> --
> "Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
> --Alphonse Allais

[Mister Gardener]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:17:06 -0000, "Frederick B. Henry Jr."
>The model that came with my Tetra All-Glass Starter Aquarium kit does
>have a "Bio-bag", consisting of an "Aerobic Frame", a mesh filter bag
>that slips over it, and "Whisper filter carbon" inside the bag. The
>instructions say that the aerobic frame is "deeply etched so as to
>provide a receptive surface for aerobic bacteria." I suppose when you
>need to chnage the bag you keep that colonized frame.
>
>You guys doubtless know this routine/functionality. Just clarifying my
>model.

Yup. Sounds right. Replacement 3 or 12 packs of biobags come with an
extra frame and clip. Save all clips. Never know when you might lose
one.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:19:32 GMT, "David McDermott"
> wrote:

>Thanks everyone, for all the help. I think I have my situation figured out
>now. I am going to buy a foam insert definitely but I'm not overly worried
>about it any more. Quick update on my tank, I came home from work yesterday
>(where this forum has been seriously impacting my productivity by the
>way...) and found one of my goldfish floating. I suppose in the long run
>it's a good thing, now there is just the fantail and one plain goldfish left
>so that might be an easier load for the new environment to handle. I
>changed about 25% water again last night and my ammonnia level is down
>again. I'll test again on Friday or Saturday and I'm hoping it will start
>going down on its own and if so I'll cross my fingers for a nitrite reading.

Wouldn't hurt to check your nitrites now, unless you are almost out of
drops or dipsticks. Nitrites rising while ammonia falls, it's a
beautiful dance.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me