Aphids on Lily leaves

[Jerry Jackson]

I asked the people at Water Garden Gems in San Antonio about a means for
controlling Aphids on Lily leaves. Here is their response:

Good afternoon,
Aphid's can be controlled by using Safer Soap and spraying the pads. Be
careful not to do it in the middle of the day, try to do it in the evenings
so that the sun does not shine on the pads. Safer Soap is a safe product to
use in and around the pond and can be purchased in most nurseries or Wal
Mart in the gardening section.
Thank You
Connie

I did find it at Wal-Mart. It is called "Safer 3-in-1" and comes in a 24 oz
spray bottle. The cost was $5.

Jerry in San Antonio

[Snooze]

"Jerry Jackson" > wrote in message
...
>I asked the people at Water Garden Gems in San Antonio about a means for
>controlling Aphids on Lily leaves. Here is their response:
>

Insecticidal soap such as Safer's works. So does a garden hose, just spray
them off, let the koi eat them.

-S

[[email protected]]

is it safe for fish????? soap?????? I dont think so. Ingrid

"Jerry Jackson" > wrote:

>I asked the people at Water Garden Gems in San Antonio about a means for
>controlling Aphids on Lily leaves. Here is their response:
>
>Good afternoon,
>Aphid's can be controlled by using Safer Soap and spraying the pads. Be
>careful not to do it in the middle of the day, try to do it in the evenings
>so that the sun does not shine on the pads. Safer Soap is a safe product to
>use in and around the pond and can be purchased in most nurseries or Wal
>Mart in the gardening section.
>Thank You
>Connie
>
>I did find it at Wal-Mart. It is called "Safer 3-in-1" and comes in a 24 oz
>spray bottle. The cost was $5.
>
>Jerry in San Antonio
>



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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

[re Safer soap]

> is it safe for fish????? soap?????? I dont think so. Ingrid

That was my thought too. I'm not entirely sure what it is about soap that
harms the fish. It's less problematic with low-foaming soap, and this
probably is low-suds, but I don't think any soap is _safe_.
--
derek

[Koi-Lo]

"Jerry Jackson" > wrote in message
...
>I asked the people at Water Garden Gems in San Antonio about a means for
>controlling Aphids on Lily leaves. Here is their response:
>
> Good afternoon,
> Aphid's can be controlled by using Safer Soap and spraying the pads. Be
> careful not to do it in the middle of the day, try to do it in the
> evenings so that the sun does not shine on the pads. Safer Soap is a safe
> product to use in and around the pond and can be purchased in most
> nurseries or Wal Mart in the gardening section.
> Thank You
> Connie
>
> I did find it at Wal-Mart. It is called "Safer 3-in-1" and comes in a 24
> oz spray bottle. The cost was $5.
>
> Jerry in San Antonio
===========================
*Note: There are TWO Koi-Lo's on this NG*

I would still remove the plant to another place to spray it. You never
know! I would not want any kind of insecticidal soaps in my ponds. Some
people recommend hosing the aphids into the water for the fish to eat. That
didn't work for me as not one koi, goldfish or rosy-red would eat them.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's*
on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:45:34 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote: Yes, I know what you mean, I have zits on my ass that acid
won't touch.
>><>
>><>"Jerry Jackson" > wrote in message
...
>><>>I asked the people at Water Garden Gems in San Antonio about a means for
>><>>controlling Aphids on Lily leaves. Here is their response:
>><>>
>><>> Good afternoon,
>><>> Aphid's can be controlled by using Safer Soap and spraying the pads. Be
>><>> careful not to do it in the middle of the day, try to do it in the
>><>> evenings so that the sun does not shine on the pads. Safer Soap is a safe
>><>> product to use in and around the pond and can be purchased in most
>><>> nurseries or Wal Mart in the gardening section.
>><>> Thank You
>><>> Connie
>><>>
>><>> I did find it at Wal-Mart. It is called "Safer 3-in-1" and comes in a 24
>><>> oz spray bottle. The cost was $5.
>><>>
>><>> Jerry in San Antonio
>><>===========================
>><>*Note: There are TWO Koi-Lo's on this NG* and I am the imposter.
>><>
>><>I would still remove the plant to another place to spray it. You never
>><>know! I would not want any kind of insecticidal soaps in my ponds. Some
>><>people recommend hosing the aphids into the water for the fish to eat. That
>><>didn't work for me as not one koi, goldfish or rosy-red would eat them.

Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1982.
Aquariums since 1956.
Some assholes Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's* on rec.ponds.
But, I am the one and only original Koi-Lo.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

I think it removes the slime coat on the gills... which are essential for oxygen
uptake. Ingrid

Derek Broughton > wrote:

wrote:
>
>[re Safer soap]
>
>> is it safe for fish????? soap?????? I dont think so. Ingrid
>
>That was my thought too. I'm not entirely sure what it is about soap that
>harms the fish. It's less problematic with low-foaming soap, and this
>probably is low-suds, but I don't think any soap is _safe_.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Snooze]

> wrote in message
...
> is it safe for fish????? soap?????? I dont think so. Ingrid

Sorry Ingrid, but that response is fear mongering, with out any apparent
basis in fact.

The active ingredient in Safer Brand Insecticidal soap is 49% Potassium
salts of fatty acids.
Which has an LC50 of 18-30ppm on fish.

In a 1300 gal pond, 18ppm is about 0.234 gal or 0.88 liter. Since the soap
is at 49% concentration it converts' to half gal or 1.8L of product.

A few spritzes of the stuff is about one ounce? Or about 0.6ppm. At that
concentration it's not even worth bothering about.

References:
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/psfatech.pdf

[Koi-Lo]

"Galen Hekhuis" > wrote in message
...
> Some places sell ladybugs and other predatory insects. Would they work?
> http://www.planetnatural.com/site/search_engine.html?page=2&prod_group=Natural%20Pest%20Control&category=Beneficial%20Insects
>
> Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
> Hell hath no fury like a bird in the hand.
==================
*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*

I read in a gardening magazine they're a waste to buy. They fly away once
released and the numbers in your yard or garden remain about the same. They
said the same thing for Praying Mantis.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj]

>I read in a gardening magazine they're a waste to buy. They fly away once
>released and the numbers in your yard or garden remain about the same. They
>said the same thing for Praying Mantis.

This is what they claim in MG classes also. I found if you have a good
source (I had a heavily infested wisteria) and you follow the directions on
the bag, which say, wet source and release bugs after dark. They will stay
long enough to clean up the infestation. There wasn't an aphid left to be
found on the wisteria a week later.

Now I have put them on a lily pad, sometimes it works and sometimes it just
****es off the lady bug, who immediately flies away. ;)

Personally I'm still for hand squishing them.

Even if Safer's is totally safe around fish (and for the most part it
probably is, even though the bottle's I've seen say do not apply around
aquatic animals) it will still leave an oil slick on your water surface.
Depending on your filtration and flow the slick will either leave quickly
or dissipate after a day or so. ~ jan
--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[[email protected]]

LC means lethal concentration. So harm without killing them will occur at lower
doses.
If you evenly spread that "spritz" out into the 1300 gallons the toxicity is low.
Dont know about your koi, but when they see me they come straight to where ever I am
and you start spritzing the leaves there is going to be a much higher concentration
locally where it is being spritzed and the fish will swim thru the area of higher
concentration.
this is also the problem with putting DRY potassium permanganate directly into the
pond. where you put it into the pond is going to have a very high concentration
especially because it sinks and doesnt dissolve instantly. the fish swims thru the
areas of high concentration and fries their gills. even using a stock solution is
tricky requiring mixing into the water with one hand while pouring with the other ...
the flapping hand hopefully chases the fish away.

nope, not for my fish. Ingrid

"Snooze" > wrote:
> wrote in message
...
>> is it safe for fish????? soap?????? I dont think so. Ingrid
>
>Sorry Ingrid, but that response is fear mongering, with out any apparent
>basis in fact.
>
>The active ingredient in Safer Brand Insecticidal soap is 49% Potassium
>salts of fatty acids.
>Which has an LC50 of 18-30ppm on fish.
>
>In a 1300 gal pond, 18ppm is about 0.234 gal or 0.88 liter. Since the soap
>is at 49% concentration it converts' to half gal or 1.8L of product.
>
>A few spritzes of the stuff is about one ounce? Or about 0.6ppm. At that
>concentration it's not even worth bothering about.
>
>References:
>http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/psfatech.pdf
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[[email protected]]

"Snooze" > wrote:

> wrote in message
...
>> is it safe for fish????? soap?????? I dont think so. Ingrid
>
>Sorry Ingrid, but that response is fear mongering, with out any apparent
>basis in fact.
>
>The active ingredient in Safer Brand Insecticidal soap is 49% Potassium
>salts of fatty acids.
>Which has an LC50 of 18-30ppm on fish.
>
>In a 1300 gal pond, 18ppm is about 0.234 gal or 0.88 liter. Since the soap
>is at 49% concentration it converts' to half gal or 1.8L of product.
>
>A few spritzes of the stuff is about one ounce? Or about 0.6ppm. At that
>concentration it's not even worth bothering about.
>
>References:
>http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/psfatech.pdf
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Derek Broughton]

~ janj wrote:

>>I read in a gardening magazine they're a waste to buy. They fly away once
>>released and the numbers in your yard or garden remain about the same.
>>They said the same thing for Praying Mantis.
>
> This is what they claim in MG classes also. I found if you have a good
> source (I had a heavily infested wisteria) and you follow the directions
> on the bag, which say, wet source and release bugs after dark. They will
> stay long enough to clean up the infestation. There wasn't an aphid left
> to be found on the wisteria a week later.

Like any predators, they're not going to move if there's food to be had.
It's just that what we consider a major infestation, because it's damaging
perhaps just one plant, may not be enough to be considered a reliable
source of food for a hundred ladybugs.

In the summer of 2001 we had a major infestation of aphids throughout
Southern Ontario. We had a corresponding infestation of ladybugs
(generally Asian, not native - one of the drawbacks of releasing purchased
predators!). Most people didn't think that was too bad, but in 2002 we
discovered just what a single ladybug accidentally crushed in a wine press
can do to a batch of wine. It wasn't pretty :-) They release a chemical
that smells much like cat's pee.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> LC means lethal concentration. So harm without killing them will occur at
> lower doses.

And the often-discussed problem with using LC & LD levels in approving any
kind of chemical is that it assumes the only issue we're concerned with is
fatalities. There is likely no data available at all on long-term effects
of sub-lethal concentrations of the soap (though there are probably figures
for LC25, etc - and it would be worth knowing whether the lethal effects
drop off quickly or slowly from the 18ppm value).

If your fish recover completely from any damage due to a low concentration
of the soap (if there's no sign of gasping, they probably will - but those
would be your koi you're experimenting on!), then only the LC values really
matter, but if there's permanent damage, every time you use the soap things
will get worse. I can't help thinking there's a good reason for saying, on
the label, not to use it around aquatic animals.

"Snooze" > wrote:
>
>A few spritzes of the stuff is about one ounce? Or about 0.6ppm. At that
>concentration it's not even worth bothering about.

fwiw, "...highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates. The LC50 was determined to
be 0.57 ppm in a 48-hour acute toxicity study with Daphnia magna". A neat
coincidence that you picked that number (I wouldn't have thought "a few
spritzes" was really as much as an ounce)

_My_ fish have always got most of their food from browsing for aquatic
inverts.
--
derek